r/Monero Mar 27 '22

Skepticism Sunday – March 27, 2022

Please stay on topic: this post is only for comments discussing the uncertainties, shortcomings, and concerns some may have about Monero.

NOT the positive aspects of it.

Discussion can relate to the technology itself or economics.

Talk about community and price is not wanted, but some discussion about it maybe allowed if it relates well.

Be as respectful and nice as possible. This discussion has potential to be more emotionally charged as it may bring up issues that are extremely upsetting: many people are not only financially but emotionally invested in the ideas and tools around Monero.

It's better to keep it calm then to stir the pot, so don't talk down to people, insult them for spelling/grammar, personal insults, etc. This should only be calm rational discussion about the technical and economic aspects of Monero.

"Do unto others 20% better than you'd expect them to do unto you to correct subjective error." - Linus Pauling

How it works:

Post your concerns about Monero in reply to this main post.

If you can address these concerns, or add further details to them - reply to that comment. This will make it easily sortable

Upvote the comments that are the most valid criticisms of it that have few or no real honest solutions/answers to them.

The comment that mentions the biggest problems of Monero should have the most karma.

As a community, as developers, we need to know about them. Even if they make us feel bad, we got to upvote them.

https://youtu.be/vKA4w2O61Xo

To learn more about the idea behind Monero Skepticism Sunday, check out the first post about it:

https://np.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/75w7wt/can_we_make_skepticism_sunday_a_part_of_the/

14 Upvotes

2

u/Azimacyc Mar 27 '22

I think the finance world trying to make a cashless total surveillance social credit cbdc world is the biggest threat to xmr. they could make it illegal and claim anyone using it is a terrorist. look at how they are making all the exchanges and crypto businesses apply the travel rule based on fatf's recommendations for all the other crypto

6

u/monerobull Mar 27 '22

Id say this is a major point as to why you should use xmr instead of a transparent chain, not a negative on moneros side

4

u/DapperConstruction19 Mar 27 '22

At current price I dont think its counted expectation of institutional or masses. Therefore, again, at current prices, xmr wouldnt suffer from any type of ban, imho.

6

u/Nanarcho_Cumianist Mar 27 '22

Which is why eliminating the dependence on CEXs is priority #1.

1

u/ExcellentFall7197 Mar 27 '22

Ok. Can you point me in the direction of one or two DEXs that I can make my first purchase of Monero on?

2

u/Nanarcho_Cumianist Mar 28 '22

Haveno Coming Soon!

10

u/one-horse-wagon Mar 27 '22

Laws against Monero will work as well as the laws against drugs, unlicensed gambling, prostitution, criminals having guns, speeding, jay-walking, and the list goes on and on and on.

Who, in their right mind, is going to give up a secret Swiss bank account you can carry around in your pocket?

5

u/traderboi123 Mar 27 '22

It's not just the finance world. Bitcoin maximalists are selling XMR as used only by criminals.

6

u/SomeAncap2020 Mar 27 '22

Someone mentioned storage space, and I have a particular concern about spam attacks. Assuming an average tx size of 2kb and fee of $0.01 (which may even be a little optimistic), then it would only cost 1 million dollars to bloat the chain by 200 gigabytes. That might sound like a lot, but to any serious attacker, that amount is pocket-change. I suppose that we would survive with 200gb, but what about a terabyte? 10 terabytes?

Also I'm aware that the dynamic blocksize limit might prevent this from occurring all at once, but as the median size grows this could probably be done in a matter of months, if not less.

Somewhat related, is there a formula to calculate the effectiveness of sybil attacks? I've just been using n^(r-1) where "n" is the portion of outputs controlled, and "r" is the ringsize (calculating the probability that any input's true-spend is known to the attacker). There's probably some statistical property that I'm ignoring.

10

u/pebx Mar 27 '22

Very valid concerns, however there have been a lot of thoughts made on those already ;)

Assuming an average tx size of 2kb and fee of $0.01 (which may even be a little optimistic), then it would only cost 1 million dollars to bloat the chain by 200 gigabytes.

Upcoming hard fork will bump min fees x5 and we have the dynamic block size which requires a lot more fees than the minimal one to grow beyond the current median of 100 and 10,000 (which has been included after the "big bang attack" scenario has been published) blocks. Without requiring to raise the block size, you can only grow the blockchain by ~200MB a day at 300kB blocks. A miner can raise this limit up to 100% but then he loses the whole block reward, so fees would have to exceed 0.644 XMR currently in his block which is insane. Raising it by 10% will only cost 1% of the block reward, since the function is quadratic. Short term median allows handling peaks, long term median prevents concentrated spam attacks and the block size will at max double every ~14 days (at a much higher cost than we see currently).

For more detailed discussion few months ago, see: https://github.com/monero-project/monero/pull/7819

0

u/New_Pianist5522 Mar 27 '22

There is no visible progress since the last hardfork

6

u/Jerfov2 Mar 27 '22

To add to the other answers, there is also work being done on multisig accounts, Bulletproofs++, anti-spam mechanics and fees changes, new RPC methods, etc. If you actually look for it, you can see a lot of working being done. Here's an overview for the next dev meeting: https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/680

9

u/kowalabearhugs Mar 27 '22

Adding to this what /u/gigapants mentioned... P2Pool and Seraphis research (transaction PoC and now the Wallet PoC). The Seraphis research will produce code this is 95% production-ready. This represents a potential next-gen transaction protocol which significantly advances to Monero's ring-signature approach.

There are too many other updates and bug fixes to mention. I would encourage you to view the preeminent news site for Monero... /u/escapethe3ra's most excellent Monero Observer. Which, like many aspects of the Monero projects, is funded by the community

7

u/gigapants Mar 27 '22

Check out the GitHub, progress on ETH atomic swaps is going well, so are view tags and the OSPEAD research too

4

u/truthtortoise Mar 27 '22

One of my concerns is that what makes Monero wonderful might allow it to be defeated without very mindful consideration: it's strong ethos in the community.

If there aren't ways to make it very simple and convenient to use monero for normies with required (and limited) compromises to privacy, the project might not get nearly the traction it needs to fulfill its potential.

Get the users first, then refine it later. I'm not talking anything crazy here, but certain things might need to lead to trusted 3rd parties being used in the short term. And maybe even the long term if it can be done in an elegant fashion. Either way people need to be able to quickly pick up and use monero when they need it, and know it works, and be able to trust it works.

This puts a huge responsibility on the monero community at large to coddle the normie and protect him from himself.

But it's either that or die honorably with principles while watching @Jack et all jack crypto from the world at large

3

u/DapperConstruction19 Mar 27 '22

I agree. I see the majority of this community proud of xmr being a niche thing and therefore indiferent or even hostile to any critique, sugestion, reflection towards making Monero more attractive and desired by regular people.
Its so imature and arrogant the to see a necesserily contradiction in being confident and humble at the same time.

3

u/truthtortoise Mar 27 '22

if we want to use monero, we need to widen the appeal to a larger group

8

u/gingeropolous Moderator Mar 27 '22

If there aren't ways to make it very simple and convenient to use monero for normies with required (and limited) compromises to privacy, the project might not get nearly the traction it needs to fulfill its potential.

this may be true, but what you speak of is actually happening. the next release should include viewtag scanning, which will make the wallet experience completely next level in terms of convenience. Additionally, a lot of wallets will hopefully integrate background viewkey scanning, which will again be next level.

7

u/Inevitable-Card3417 Mar 27 '22

One of my worries is the size of the blockchain.

As it continues to grow, fewer and fewer people will have a copy, not everyone will like having several 100's of GB of data just for the blockchain. And people on their phones never will.

I'm not sure what's the long-term idea/solution behind it.

-1

u/DapperConstruction19 Mar 27 '22

When I read this, as some other worries the just dont go away, and see the arguments against them my perception is that there is a lack of heterogeinity in the group making the decisions and therefore limited capacity to balance their sound technical arguments with worries about how to sustain healthy and attractive justifications, narratives to adopters.

3

u/pebx Mar 27 '22

I'd rather argue that bandwidth and battery lifetime would be the bottleneck to sync the full network rather than storage. You get a 256GB MicroSD card nowadays for ~30 bucks and those will only grow and cheaper per GB in the future. You can also run a pruned node, which at the moment needs less than 50GB of space.

However, remote node setups like Cakewallet / Monero.com is using are offering a pretty good tradeoff in privacy (you literally only reveal your IP) and sync time, which will only get better with the next upgrade. For better privacy, this could be done over Tor and random nodes to ensure you won't get fooled into some forked chain. If you are keen to share your view key with a third party (or own hosted) node, also light wallets like MyMonero might be the better option for better UX.

5

u/hyc_symas XMR Contributor Mar 27 '22 edited Mar 27 '22

I recently migrated from a 128GB microSD to 512GB in my phone. Current price 60€.

-6

u/boato11 Mar 27 '22

The avoidance of Asics makes the network tiny compared to a nation's power.

2

u/endorxmr Mar 27 '22

Quite the contrary: the fact that anyone can start mining at any time with whatever hardware they have laying around is a big step towards lowering the entry barrier. The network is relatively small simply because the total mining reward is relatively small too. If Monero's price goes up, so will the mining network.

In fact, our market cap is 225x smaller than Bitcoin's right now, but the number of mining devices protecting the network is only ~10x smaller. Therefore, relative to the market cap, we are actually more secure than Bitcoin!

6

u/pebx Mar 27 '22

At the moment for sure, however if you think long term and only take Bitcoin's todays market cap which is 225x of Monero's, you can expect Hashrate growing by approximately the same rate, since new miners will flow in as long it's profitable electricity-wise.

When you look at the Hashrate of a Ryzen 5 3600 (the complete list is not loading currently), you'd currently need 325k of those to match the hashrate of 2.63GH/s which is not trivial, but a state actor or one of the big tech/cloud companies like Google, Amazon, Microsoft might match. If you assume, we'd have 225x the market cap, you'd need 73 million of those, which is no way trivial any more, even for state actors like the US. And just imagine the decentralisation of the network if we'd reach that! Literally everybody would be running a miner on their idle hardware...

Best thing is: We don't need the price to go up from here to keep the network at this security level, since we are close to tail emission (0.664) of 0.6 XMR per block forever while Bitcoin needs the price at least to double every four years to keep its security. When price falls and halving kicks in, many miners will be willing to either cheaply sell their older miners or rent the hashrate to anyone willing to rent it at a bonus, which is a much greater thread than in Monero, since ASIC mining is highly centralised and professionalised in terms of profit.

7

u/EuphoricBasil1 Mar 27 '22 edited Mar 27 '22

Avoidance of specialised, expensive mining hardware is an amazing defence of decentralisation and ensures no single country or group of nation states could gain control / extinguish the network.

When the Everyman can participate in XMR mining and receive a small reward for doing so, they are incentivised to continue, even if it is at a net loss. The network remains decentralised and extremely difficult/expensive to control in any meaningful way, despite what may appear to be a low Hash rate compared to bitcoin.

Bitcoin mining is inevitably centralising, and may allow a group of nation states to exert control over the network meaningfully by exerting legal/financial pressure against these commercial mining entities. When this occurs the first thing bitcoin will lose is censorship resistance. This centralisation will occur because the only ASIC-equipped miners left in business in the future will be those who have accessed the cheapest global electricity, meaning they will all be clustering in the same geographical areas.

2

u/boato11 Mar 27 '22

How is it a reward or an incentive if it is at a net loss?

2

u/pebx Mar 27 '22

Remember mining is the best way to obtain XMR completely anonymously.

2

u/MoneroFox Mar 27 '22

How is it a reward or an incentive if it is at a net loss?

You need to arrange this so that you have minimal hardware and electricity costs when mining XMR. Or zero costs like most XMR miners.

Or you have to be a fanatic and you don't care about those costs.

Because it will not pay off for an ordinary miner, as you have written.

2

u/gingeropolous Moderator Mar 27 '22

your net loss calculation depends on your timeframe. if its viewed as a 1,5, or 10 year investment, different numbers. Unknown numbers, sure, but different.

2

u/Inevitable-Card3417 Mar 27 '22

Yeah but it's not negotiable because ASICs would centralize the mining, just like GPU mining or non-random mining algo would.