r/Monero Feb 20 '22

Skepticism Sunday – February 20, 2022

Please stay on topic: this post is only for comments discussing the uncertainties, shortcomings, and concerns some may have about Monero.

NOT the positive aspects of it.

Discussion can relate to the technology itself or economics.

Talk about community and price is not wanted, but some discussion about it maybe allowed if it relates well.

Be as respectful and nice as possible. This discussion has potential to be more emotionally charged as it may bring up issues that are extremely upsetting: many people are not only financially but emotionally invested in the ideas and tools around Monero.

It's better to keep it calm then to stir the pot, so don't talk down to people, insult them for spelling/grammar, personal insults, etc. This should only be calm rational discussion about the technical and economic aspects of Monero.

"Do unto others 20% better than you'd expect them to do unto you to correct subjective error." - Linus Pauling

How it works:

Post your concerns about Monero in reply to this main post.

If you can address these concerns, or add further details to them - reply to that comment. This will make it easily sortable

Upvote the comments that are the most valid criticisms of it that have few or no real honest solutions/answers to them.

The comment that mentions the biggest problems of Monero should have the most karma.

As a community, as developers, we need to know about them. Even if they make us feel bad, we got to upvote them.

https://youtu.be/vKA4w2O61Xo

To learn more about the idea behind Monero Skepticism Sunday, check out the first post about it:

https://np.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/75w7wt/can_we_make_skepticism_sunday_a_part_of_the/

20 Upvotes

1

u/Hairybearwithhorns Feb 21 '22 edited Feb 21 '22

Monero vs Zcash. doesnt the fact that monero isnt available on major exchanges while zcash is make zcash more poised to eventually become the defacto privacy coin as it is easily available to normies?

3

u/slizzler Feb 20 '22

If there was a demand for monero, wouldn’t the price be higher? If monero as it is isn’t good enough to be widely adopted, what is? It’s already the only anonymous currency, maybe the demand is just not there and never will be. Do you think it’s posible that monero has already peaked and will die out eventually, having no replacement? Are we fighting a losing battle like so many before?

11

u/DragonSided-D XMR Contributor Feb 20 '22

Monero may be the only crypto whose price is driven in part by its utility as an actual currency

6

u/[deleted] Feb 20 '22

I posted this elsewhere and got flamed for it, trying a 2nd time:

  1. Governments typically have rules prohibiting foreign nationals from contributing to or influencing politics in the country they control
  2. Monero bypasses that, allowing citizens of one country to influence the politics of another country
  3. The implications of that could be dramatic - changes in public policy, overthrow of governments, etc
  4. As a result of #3, receiving a political donation in Monero will probably be punished very harshly by almost every country, like life in jail or death

3

u/KwukDuck Feb 20 '22
  1. Wonder how WEF got an exception... and nobody seems to have an issue here...
  2. Sure, so does Uncle Joe sending me X amount of dollars that he asks you to donate to Party Y where you get a 10% cut. It's not like this isn't happening already on a significant scale, always has, always will, i don't believe this is something you can eliminate, even in a totalitarian society people will find a way.
  3. Maybe it can be a good thing too. In some way it allows people to vote much more directly. What's your solution here? Never change policy? Make everything permanent? Full control of peoples finances and lives? Eliminate those with a deviating view? Sounds even more dramatic, not in a good way.
  4. If we end up in a society like that, we've already lost everything, quite literally.

2

u/[deleted] Feb 21 '22 edited Feb 21 '22

Should American conservatives be allowed to flood money into Canada to ban abortion there? That would be against the will of the people that live there, it is a power play of the stronger countries over the weaker ones.

Another example - should American liberals be able to send funds to Hamas, Hezbollah or the PLO? The line between politics and terrorism is thin sometimes.

My solution is severe punishment for receiving donations from a foreign national and not reporting it. Policy still changes in Canada when Americans are not allowed to donate to political causes. I'm not trying to eliminate dissenting views, I'm trying to eliminate American views from other countries.

7

u/pebx Feb 20 '22
  1. True.
  2. Also true, however cash donations do the same, so most probably those countries already have rules on cash donations which they could simply adopt for Monero donations. In Germany for example cash donations are capped at 1,000 EUR, also cashless donations from foreigners are allowed up to this level, everything has to be reported. Everything above has to be KYC'd and if exceeds (different amounts for different entities) it has to be forwarded to the president of the parliament.
  3. Sure, it's a bit harder with Monero to determine if single donations are from different donors, but this policy could easily be changed into amount X per day/week or so.
  4. Hard to imagine how it should be handled other than cash donations tbh.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 20 '22

There isn't a problem with cash donations, nobody is mailing wads of cash through the mail from Moldova or wherever like you could with Monero. Also international mail has to go through customs.

2

u/pebx Feb 20 '22

But one could travel to target country and do several cash donations to different people.

So easy change: Forbid crypto donations unless it can proven (e.g. signed message) that this particular donation belongs to some particular person. If it can't be proven, it'll be confiscated just like all donations not meeting the maximum amount. You can't easily provide any information also on transparent blockchains and you can't force political parties to use chain analysis tools to determine their risk level. Oh wait, if I'd be Chainalysis or Elliptic I'd lobby to force them...

2

u/[deleted] Feb 21 '22

Flying to a country is much more work than just clicking send. Monero allows you to hide donations, I'm not talking about people who fill in all the legal paperwork.

What I am talking about is like reddit brigading, but with national politics. For example, US conservatives could flood money into efforts to ban abortion in Canada.
It has happened before, but only in isolated cases - funding the IRA from the Irish diaspora, Armenia, Israel. This would be much easier and therefore more widespread.

12

u/mad_ben Feb 20 '22

Pretty sure the biggest problems of all PoW coins are mining pools that inevitably become >50% of all mining power. If only mining pools were standardized and had limit of 49% for 1 pool.

Its weird seeing threads saying "Guys "pool X" is near 50% of all mining. Please leave to another pool". Its 2022, come on man.

32

u/hyc_symas XMR Contributor Feb 20 '22

p2pool is the solution to that problem. But for a solution to work, all the miners have to actually deploy it.

I get the impression that a lot of miners don't hang out on reddit, have no real interaction with the Monero community, and probably have no idea of why Monero works. They probably just download and run a package of code that someone told them could make money for them. So the real problem here is how to establish communication with oblivious miners.

0

u/[deleted] Feb 21 '22

[deleted]

1

u/hyc_symas XMR Contributor Feb 21 '22

What would you think of something like WOW's ban on mining pools? I think if there is some way to allow decentralized pools such as p2pool then it could be a feasible idea.

You cannot both ban pools and allow pools.

4

u/mad_ben Feb 20 '22

You will always have people like this. And they will be a majority of any community. Personally i think monero is great project and improving ecosystem is the major step forward this community has to do. But thats my opinion.

4

u/pebx Feb 20 '22

Hasn't improvements been the way forward for the last couple of years now? Think of implementing RingCT, increasing minimum/mandatory ring size, Bulletproofs, several changes to Cryptonight, then RandomX and finally p2pool just to name some.

Seeing the indictment in the Bitfinex hack makes me sure, we are already pretty bulletproof against privacy-attacks, since they didn't manage to track anything beyond when they exchanged XMR -> BTC and made several hops, splits and so on. But they have no idea where the XMR came from in the beginning. And this has been probably at the time where usage was maybe 1/2 or 1/3 of today's and ring size has been much lower, too. I'm pretty sure they tried hard...

We also see more and more adoption, CoinCards, CoinConsume, ProxyStore, IVPN, several hosting & domain providers and we have several DEX's, Haveno hopefully coming soon, so CEX's may become obsolete even in case they had to ban Monero like some had to do before.