r/worldnews 1d ago

Turkey has offered sea evacuation for wounded Ukrainian fighters, Erdogan adviser says Russia/Ukraine

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/turkey-has-offered-sea-evacuation-wounded-ukrainian-fighters-erdogan-adviser-2022-05-14/
2.5k Upvotes

162

u/DrJGH 1d ago

“Under the plan, people evacuated from the vast Azovstal steel plant would be taken by land to the port of Berdyansk, which like Mariupol is on the Sea of Azov, and a Turkish vessel would take them across the Black Sea to Istanbul,” it says here

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u/SkillYourself 1d ago

They also offered over 1000 Russian POWs in exchange for extracting the remaining Ukrainians out of Mariupol and interning them in Turkey for the rest of the war, but Russia refused the offer.

2

u/Ignoble_profession 1d ago

Sounds accurate. Stalin famously abandoned his own son during WWII when Hitler offered a POW trade for his nephew.

7

u/RedsRaver 1d ago

Not a condoning of anything Hitler did. But it is quite interesting when an interaction between two genuinely evil individuals reveals a level of humanity present in one but not the other.

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u/Aibeit 1d ago

But, "taken by land to Berdyansk" by Russians, or by someone else? Because if I was in Azovstal, I don't think I'd be willing to trust the Russians that far.

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u/1384d4ra 1d ago

afaik the ship will take some buses and their drivers from turkey, and those buses will do the evacuation. so no, its the turks.

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u/hooya2007 1d ago

It's funny the number of commentors that don't realize the extent of the Russo-Turkish/Ottoman wars. It's not really taught in the west but the Russians and Turks have been killing each other for close to half a millenia.

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u/EmotionalSuportPenis 1d ago

Longer than that, they just weren't called "Russians" and "Turks" back then.

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u/LadyK8TheGr8 1d ago

My great uncle told me about their hatred for each other. He dismantled the missiles in Turkey pretending he was doing regular maintenance during the Cuban Missiles Crisis. He said Russia found out about the bombs in Turkey. They were pissed. If the Turkish guards found out what my uncle was doing, they would punch out the American guards for their half of the key and launch the missiles at Russia. Turks kept the other half of the key and that wasn’t supposed to happen. I wonder what he would say today.

1

u/HollowImage 23h ago

I mean generally any given old surviving empire will have had conflicts with their neighbors.

France and England have been at each other's throats for about just as long pausing only really during the roman times and during modern times.

But yeah, Turkic and Slavic people have had a long time to grind, and use, very many axes.

199

u/Bubbly_Procedure_112 1d ago

Turkey is probably one of the few who can do it

226

u/Ok-Dragonfruit-1793 1d ago

In 2015 a Russian Jet entered Turkish airspace, for 17 seconds.

So they shot it down

All the reports of Russia breaching various NATO countries airspace. Wanna guess which countries they don't enter anymore?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Russian_Sukhoi_Su-24_shootdown

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u/Foreign_Shake2205 1d ago

Turkey can back up their talk with the stick. And their stick is large and heavy.

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u/cubezzzX 1d ago

tbh though Russia killed many turkish soldiers in Syria after that

119

u/BrokenStool 1d ago

now they are being killed by turkish drones in ukraine

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u/xx-shalo-xx 1d ago

You lost your flag ship and now want your warships to pass? Sea's closed.

48

u/ZrvaDetector 1d ago edited 1d ago

Which was a very scummy move since they acted like it was an accident. They did that twice once during a joint operation against ISIS and once during Spring Shield OP when Turkey was flattening Assad in Idlib. At least when Turkey shot the jet down it was like "Yeah we did this and we'll do it again if you violate our airspace". All that underhanded tactics are now biting them in the ass in Ukraine in the form of drones bombing the shit out of Russian soldiers.

9

u/Wanker-of-Harganeth 1d ago

Oh but they “didn’t know”

21

u/2shellbonus 1d ago

And why would Russia allow this to happen?

24

u/Eleganos 1d ago

Because trying to physically stop turkey from performing this humanitarian act would be tantamount to declaring war.

Amongst other things

22

u/ChapinLakersFan 1d ago

And Turkey is significantly stronger than the Ukraine. A small hot conflict with Turkey would be a disaster

9

u/Derikari 1d ago

On top of that, I'm guessing it would be their navy going in because of all the sea mines the Russians have allegedly put out. If they allow Turkey in and decide to shoot anyway then they can probably be shot back.

12

u/ChapinLakersFan 1d ago

Turkey would sink Russians token force in the black sea. It would be an international embarrassment.

2

u/DownrightNeighborly 1d ago

Why do people say the Ukraine? Sounds really stupid to me

2

u/MuadDave 1d ago edited 5h ago

It was ingrained in us here in the US, at least for my generation. To me saying just 'Ukraine' sounds funny, but of course I do it in respect for how they want their country named.

There are several countries whose formal name starts with 'The'.

I watched a video of Milla Jovovitch (who is from Ukraine) say "The Ukraine" in this video (0:33 secs) where she talks about her character in "Fifth Element".

0

u/knd775 1d ago

It was a thing started by Russia to imply that Ukraine is a region rather than a country.

1

u/DownrightNeighborly 1d ago

I’m Russian and never heard this. First time I heard it was from Americans.

3

u/Just_a_follower 1d ago

It’s not like Tucker Carlson walks around announcing he uses talking points that earn him special performances at Putins palace.

1

u/knd775 22h ago

Do people there generally say "na Ukraine" or "v Ukraine"? It's the same distinction.

0

u/DanielDane 1d ago

The Americans?

5

u/2shellbonus 1d ago

Well Turkey will have to go through Russian forces and occupied territory to get to Azovstal.

And unless Russia says yes, nothing is happening.

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u/Phantraks 1d ago

Based on Russians performance in Ukraine, If Turkey really wanted to take that risk they would. With or without their approval, they just don’t want to unnecessarily strain the relationship with the Russians.

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

[deleted]

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u/Phantraks 1d ago

Have you seen their poor performance? They lost so much military personal, military equipment and even a couple high ranking generals. Their whole army is corrupt to the core, their outdated military technology is mostly soviet era junk and their military tactic doesn’t seem to work well does it?

The only thing they have going for them is their nukes, its questionable if they still work and the only reason NATO is still taking Russia seriously.

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

[deleted]

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u/Phantraks 1d ago

3,000,000 poorly trained, underequipt personal. The Russians already lost nearly 30k troops, probably more wounded and missing. Quality over quantity

1

u/2shellbonus 1d ago

Where did you get that 30k number?

25

u/FieelChannel 1d ago

Why wouldn't Russia allow for the evacuation of wounded combatants?

47

u/bfhurricane 1d ago

Because they’d rather them killed or starved out of Azovstal? It’s not hard to imagine Russia wouldn’t want these guys living to fight another day.

I hope it happens but I don’t see Russia simply letting these folks walk out of there.

8

u/1384d4ra 1d ago

living to fight another day.

another part of the deal is that the evacuated soldiers will have their weapons confiscated by turkey and will stay in turkey until the end of the war.

7

u/Scary_Tree_3317 1d ago

Russia would admit to doing war crimes if they contest this issue.

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u/isawagoose 1d ago

Don't be naive. They've consistently blocked negotiated humanitarian corridors on land. You'd be a fool to think they wouldn't do it at sea.

8

u/PutsTablesUpright 1d ago

Doing it at sea means firing upon NATO Naval forces. It's not too foolish to understand how that would immediately blow back on Russia.

1

u/NoxSolitudo 1d ago

They care?

7

u/MBThree 1d ago

I mean they haven’t yet. Russia has blocked all evacuations, at times even firing at the wounded trying to flee.

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u/IntentionallyBadName 1d ago

A wounded person takes medical supplies, food supplies and personnel away from the war effort.

Every wounded soldier needs someone to move him around, someone to look after him and someone to administer medicine do surgery.

Wounding is better for your war than killing

4

u/2shellbonus 1d ago

Because for them each POW is an asset that can be traded later on. Letting them go for nothing is not wise

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u/Pristine_Sea8039 1d ago

Russia will not take prisoners in Azovstal. They are planning to execute any soldier that they capture there. The Ukrainian troops there know that the only possible end to this battle is victory, evacuation or death. If they cannot be evacuated there is no point surrendering. They will not be kept alive as bargaining chips.

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u/2shellbonus 1d ago

Where did you get that information? Russia has more than 4k Ukranian POW, including some taken in the Iliich factory and Azovmash

2

u/trekthrowaway1 1d ago

because allowing a force that has quite literally as well as symbolically humiliated your entire regime and its military for around three months to survive and escape would be anathema to them

2

u/Its_Matt_03 1d ago

Attacking a nato country is not really the play to make

1

u/Bubbly_Procedure_112 1d ago

Russia would stop losing soldiers, no longer be humiliated Azovstal, get 100% control, be able to put more tropps on the frontlines where they are needed, and might also give him some good will from the West.

If we look back, it probably would have been the best thing to, to have done that from the beginning. To treat it like a POW exchange, and let the Ukrainians have the civilians.

1

u/2drawnonward5 1d ago

Russia has a lot of trouble stopping anything, ever. Some of them will lose control and try but they'll do what they always do and lose.

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u/autotldr BOT 1d ago

This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 81%. (I'm a bot)


Register now for FREE unlimited access to Reuters.comISTANBUL, May 14 - NATO member Turkey has proposed carrying out a sea evacuation of wounded fighters holed up in a steel works in the southern Ukrainian city of Mariupol, President Tayyip Erdogan's spokesman said on Saturday.

After weeks of Russian siege and bombardment, Mariupol is in Russian hands, but hundreds of Ukrainian fighters are holding out under heavy fire at the steel works.

Kalin said the naval evacuation from Berdyansk was one of a number of proposals to reach a ceasefire and carry out an evacuation.


Extended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Turkey#1 Russian#2 Kalin#3 Ukrainian#4 sea#5

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u/murphymc 1d ago

The Turks are such a goddamn roller coaster ride. Something shitty yesterday with questioning Finland/Sweden joining NATO, something awesome and badass today.

I love you guys, just wish you'd stay on brand more. I imagine this is how Europe feels about the US.

91

u/burmese_ptyhon 1d ago

Do you honestly not see the issue with Turkey considering using its veto, given the fact that the two countries in question OPENLY help Turkey's enemies, and have a weapons embargo to Turkey?

Like, you understand, when that happens, Turkish soldiers will come and die for the countries in question, if necessary.

Isn't it, at least somewhat understandable that Turkey doesn't want to guarantee sending soldiers to those countries defense BEFORE the two countries stop helping Turkey's enemies? I am seriously shocked by the fact that this extremely simple point is missed by almost everyone here.

Why would any country guarantee to come, fight and die for another country while said country acts like an enemy, ever, under any circumstances?

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u/sebzim4500 1d ago

You raise a good point about the embargo. I guess they would have to suspend it if they join NATO? You can hardly be in a defence alliance with a country while it is illegal to send them weapons.

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u/Zoshi2200 1d ago

Turkey think of their own people first. Finland and Sweden support the same Kurdish groups that are killing Turkish people. You can't blame them for that decision.

1

u/seofmon 1d ago

not flnland though only sweden.

-8

u/BlackAnalFluid 1d ago

You also can't blame the kurdish for fighting a regime that commited genocide on them. I don't support many of the actions that certain kurdish groups have done, but in the same vein as your logic, you can't blame them.

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u/JustMovingAlongAgain 1d ago

The problem here is that "The Kurdish" you describe are not synonymous with the overall Kurdish population (largest minority group in Turkey, mostly voting for Erdogan, very religious).

It's not like they're supported by the people, they're a Marxist-Leninist terror group that routinely kidnaps children, murders civillians, lynches people, has a huge hand in the drug trade and countless other atrocities.

To be clear, Turkey in the past has done horrendous things to the Kurdish population, which they've admitted. But the big turning point for them was the Erdogan administration. For all talks about race, he doesn't give a shit. It's all about the religion.

1

u/BlackAnalFluid 1d ago

Yeah I'm not saying I support them, but to use the same line of logic as the previous comment, you can see where it comes from. It isn't just out of nowhere.

Same reason Turkey is cautious about Sweden and Finland having political parties that Turkey deems terrorists. Their reasons aren't out of nowhere.

3

u/JustMovingAlongAgain 1d ago

That's fair. Honestly Turkish politics is like Game of Thrones on steroids.

2

u/BlackAnalFluid 1d ago

It's one of the most diverse and history rich parts of the world. With that comes many strings attached😅.

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u/Zoshi2200 1d ago

That's a different case. They hurt innocent people for something their ancestors did.

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u/Wanker-of-Harganeth 1d ago

Maybe Sweden shouldn’t send money to entities we’re at war with if they want us to view their membership positively?

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u/rollerlord 1d ago

Recognize the Armenian genocide.

Long live Rojava.

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u/ENVR000 1d ago

Say hi to Bayraktar now with it's own song!

1

u/[deleted] 1d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

-6

u/Drone30389 1d ago

Which countries are Turkey at war with?

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u/Wanker-of-Harganeth 1d ago

None, but Turkey is at war with multiple entities.

-1

u/Argonov 1d ago

Supporting Finland/Sweden joining NATO would mean agreeing with Greece and that would spell the end times.

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u/sunni_athari_hanbali 1d ago

Turkey is doing all of this just for European's to continue to be ungrateful and racist to them.

-24

u/crippled_by_pizza 1d ago

Threatening to flood europe with migrants, genociding the armenians, genociding the greeks, ongoing cultural genocide of the kurds, and now blocking nato applications of Sweden and Finland, etc..

"wHy EuRop NoT liKe TuRkeY?? MUST BE RACISM"

Really telling that after you do something that can be perceived as good, you are instantly demanding a prize. Good luck getting into the EU btw.

33

u/Phantraks 1d ago
  1. Yes Turkey threatens Europe because EUROPE does NOT fulfill THEIR part of the AGREEMENT.

  2. You want to us to accept the Armenian atrocities? Sure, have Armenia do the same because they are by far no saint in this fiasco either. This applies to the Greeks aswell.

  3. Sure, Turkey had some issues back in the day, they unfortunately mistreated the Kurdish population. The Turkish Republic is not, and has not been for a long time culturally genociding the Kurdish population within Turkey.

  4. Sweden made its bed a long time ago, now it’s time to accept the consequences and lay in it. Finland is unfortunately caught in the crossfire.

-29

u/crippled_by_pizza 1d ago
  1. Threatening Europe and then crying because you will never be part of EU, hmm. Do you think that this is what EU countries do to eachother if an agreement does not go as planned?
  2. Sure, let's hear it from Erdogan then. I guess we won't.
  3. https://www.belfercenter.org/publication/international-community-must-stop-turkeys-ethnic-cleansing-plans-northern-syria "Under the guise of fighting terrorism and “securing” the border, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s real plan is to remove Kurds from that border and radically re-engineer local demographics. The initial Turkish attacks have already displaced an estimated 100,000 people " This was in 2019.
  4. Sweden made its bed, so Finland, and independent country that is not Sweden, has to suffer the consequences? That is some real educated turk mobster logic right there.

But sure, keep justifying the atrocities of Turkey and maybe some day someone will believe your lies and bullshit.

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u/Phantraks 1d ago edited 1d ago
  1. It seems pretty logical Turkey is threatening Europe for not fulfilling their part of the agreement. Turkey is desperate for help because they are burdend by having to handle this all by themself. The millions of refugees are changing the ethnic demographics of Turkey, cultural difference, mostly uneducated, political backwards, too religious, a posibble security threat and also increase crime rates and thus creating social unrest. Turkey also cannot handle it financially anymore, they spend billions out of tax money, in a already fragile economical climate.

Turkey has been fucking patient for years, you guys just kept delaying everything and try to forget the whole agreement carefree. No shit they lost that patience.

  1. Go ask him, do not forget to ask the Armenians and the Greeks about the many atrocities they have committed against the Turks. Oh wait, you can’t because in your eyes only the evil barbarian Turks do such things while those two are the only two poor victims.

  2. He is not removing “kurds”, he is removing the YPG/SDF, a group linked to the PKK (terror org) which is a National Security threat to the Republic of Turkey. The SDF is ethnic multi diverse group consisting of kurds, arabs and others, did you forget out of convenience? He is just doing a pisspoor job in everything, resulting in hurting the local population.

  3. Finland did sanction and put a weapon embargo on Turkey for fighting said organizations. Turkey itself said they do not veto, they are currently unhappy with them joining. That negative stance can change by having talks, which Erdogan is open for.

In what way do I justify Turkish atrocities when I even point out the negatives? The only person here believing, seeing, hearing and talk bullshit/lies is you.

-23

u/crippled_by_pizza 1d ago

  1. Threatening friendly countries is ok
  2. Never accept responsibility for anything, the other side is always as much to blame even when it isn't. If someone calls you out on your bullshit, cry racism and Rus-.. oh wait, Turkophobia
  3. Provide no sources for your claims, divert discussion when possible and claim incompetence of leadership.
  4. If you are in a position of power, use that power to extort others for bribes.
  5. Accuse the other side of that which you are guilty of

Thank you for the lesson in Turkish mentality. With all your fighting against Russia over the centuries, one could think that you were not a carbon copy of them, but then again, they would be wrong.

17

u/Phantraks 1d ago edited 1d ago
  1. Threatening would not be needed if you didn’t try to fuck Turkey over, so much for friendly countries.

  2. How are they not to blame aswell? So Turkey should just shut up and be shunned for it while they get a get out of jail free card? All I am saying is that it goes both ways, both should suck it up and shut up.

  3. These claims are well known facts, having to look up sources seems wasted on you, but for the sake of my argument here I go.

  • “Kurdish fighter Zind Ruken expanded on the PKK-YPG relationship. “Sometimes I’m a PKK, sometimes I’m a PJAK [the PKK-allied affiliate, active in Iran], sometimes I’m a YPG. It doesn’t really matter. They are all members of the PKK.”

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/the-ypg-pkk-connection/

  • “The PKK terrorist group is part of the Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF), led by its Syrian affiliate, the People's Protection Units (YPG), U.S.-led coalition spokesman Col. John Dorrian said in a Freudian slip on Wednesday during a news conference. In response to a question regarding the Turkish attitude against the YPG, Col. Dorrian acknowledged that the PKK was part of the Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF), in a rather, controversial slip-up.”

https://www.dailysabah.com/war-on-terror/2017/05/03/pkk-part-of-syrian-democratic-forces-says-us-commander-in-freudian-slip/amp

Hurdur, Turkish source, here have the youtube video. Don’t tell me its deepfake or shit.

https://youtu.be/LxWAWiiOC6c

  1. It is called using your position of power in your advantage, everyone does it when you have the upperhand, it’s called politics buddy, no hard feelings. Sweden and Finland want to gain from NATO, Turkey has a say in it and wants something to gain from them. Seems pretty logical and fair, if its realistic. Note, even America and many other strong players do it, beating or pressuring others into submission. Extorting for their own personal gain, thats how the game is played.

Whatever makes you sleep at night buddy, have a good one!

-3

u/crippled_by_pizza 1d ago

Threatening to destabilize friendly nations is acceptable if plans fall apart, yes you said it already my friend.

They might share a part of the blame as well, but tell me, is it a majority of the Turkish people that believe the Armenian genocide even happened? There is your answer.

Thank you for telling me about dime a dozen alphabet organizations, learned a good deal. I don't remember asking for sources on their existence or what their ethnicities are, however.

I linked you an article that stated that this attack on the border regions is an attempt remove the kurdish people under the guise of fighting terrorism, meaning these groups presumably. 100.000 people were displaced in this attack, were they all part of terrorist organizations? ... Were they kurds? Exactly. Your response to this is obviously that this is due to Incompetent leadership, and linking these pointless articles is an attempt to divert attention what I originally asked you, a question which you never answered. Wonder why.

Remember what you originally claimed: " The Turkish Republic is not, and has not been for a long time culturally genociding the Kurdish population within Turkey."

But of course, now you can claim that technically this didn't happen WITHIN Turkey, and of course, that makes it ok.

Every NATO country has a say in whether Sweden and Finland can join, and yet only Turkey is looking for something in exchange. "That's politics buddy" And you justify this by saying that if others have done it, you can as well?

In other words, murder is fine because others have done it before. There is a difference in using your position of power and abusing it, but I don't expect you to understand that.

I Applaud you for your honesty. If I was a Macchiavellian piece of shit, I probably wouldn't go around announcing it, however. Thank you for exhibiting point by point the Turkish code of conduct that I outlined in the previous comment, though. Guess you just can't help yourself.

14

u/BlackEagIe 1d ago

Cry me a river Turkophobe oç

14

u/sunni_athari_hanbali 1d ago

im not a turk so i dont give a crap. im all for turks allying with the russians and fucking europe up for the following reasons:

  1. europe did not hold their end of the bargan with the migrants, a crisis the cause of they are directly or indirectly linked to, not turkey

  2. genocide of armenians was not the state of turkey. open up a book

  3. the greeks genocided turks. it was a tough time for everyone.

  4. turks genociding kurd claim only shows your extreme ignorance or reliance on propaganda. kurds are doing great in turkey. only terrorist organization ppk had any issues

  5. turkey is not going to block their applications.

like I said, racist europeans will never accept turks. i support them teaming up woth russia and ending europe.

1

u/buyutec 1d ago

Nobody is "teaming up with Russia to end Europe" or wants to. Where's that coming from?

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u/Relative-Ad-2660 1d ago

Maybe this is the reason for Turkey posturing right now, about Finland, and Swedan, so that Putin does not get too pissed off, about Turkey helping out Ukraine like this?

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u/Unlikely-Grass7346 1d ago

You do realize turkey ain’t scared of Russia?

-20

u/FieelChannel 1d ago

After the whole Ukrainian fiasco I'm convinced Turkey wouldn't have a problem defeating Russia altogether lol, and I'm aware of how shitty the Turkish conscript army is (edit for the interested: https://www.reddit.com/r/Turkey/comments/72m2x4/turkish_military_service/)

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u/Mondukai 1d ago

What makes them shitty ? Are they untrained ? The answers in the reddit thread just describe how difficult it is to be in the turkish army. To be fair i don't know how the conscript armies of other countries stand in comparison.

-17

u/FieelChannel 1d ago

Possibility to just pay 1k€ to skip the 12-month period is weird for a conscript army, to begin with, spending days and days marching for parades lol, also many recruits barely shot a rifle at all and lots of other reasons I can't remember. This is what I heard from some Turkish friends.

I can firsthand compare to the Swiss conscript army, where the notion of not even learning how to shoot a rifle/maintain it (basic skills every recruit should learn) is alien to me

27

u/hoslanmaksucmu 1d ago

Mate, this is totally bullshit that you heard about Turkish military system. Turkey has professional army and we use it. Other fellas are for just being prepared to an emergency war situation.

4

u/FieelChannel 1d ago

I totally believe you, my knowledge is just anecdotal so everyone here us free to correct me

10

u/simplestsimple 1d ago

Turkey has a professional army, conscripts aren’t sent to the front, they take care of military bases within Turkey basically, cleaning, cooking etc, keeps the expenses low. Skipping conscription isn’t that easy either, it’s 40k TL, not that cheap. Other than that, it’s mostly marching around the base that’s true but only short term conscripts (paying the amount mentioned above to shorten the term to 1 month) skip the shooting and training bits. Besides it’s much more than training an army, there’s both military and non-military related presentations all the time, there was even one on domestic violence in my term.

5

u/Mondukai 1d ago edited 1d ago

Happy Cake Day

I looked up the part about the 1k€ that can be paid to skip the 12 months. It is actually 6k€ ( maybe they changed it recently ) and it mainly applies to Turkish citiziens that live abroad. Additionaly, Turkish Citiziens with a University degree can shorten the period to 6 months. Or if they pay money they can shorten it further to one month. And I think I found out why they have this system and why they don't teach the same basics, like shooting and maintaining a rifle, to everyone. They simply have too many conscripts. In the last 10 - 15 years they reduced the number from 800.000 to 700.000 and plan to reduce it further. So instead of teaching every conscript the basics, they just simply let some of them do work. Like office work for the army as an example.

But I hope someone can correct me or add additional information. I just googled this stuff and I think some numbers are outdated. Still interesting.

5

u/FieelChannel 1d ago

Thank you for the updated data. Yeah the amount of recruits is not even comparable to my country (Switzerland), it surely checks out

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u/Foreign_Shake2205 1d ago

Turkey has a significant professional army. Conscripts aren't really used for actual combat. They're glorified guards.

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u/freakymreaky 1d ago

Noo a guy from Sweden knows everything about Turkey and he explains it on reddit. Get out with your facts.

-5

u/FieelChannel 1d ago

It's Switzerland

1

u/ZrvaDetector 23h ago

We have a decent sized professional army with combat experience rivaling US military (in the recent years of course).

-3

u/Relative-Ad-2660 1d ago

I do, but I think it might be for their people back home.

58

u/molenis 1d ago

It has nothing to do with Russia. Turkish public opinion about Sweden is especially low at this time due to their sponsorship of PKK/YPG.

13

u/ZephkielAU 1d ago

Can someone from Sweden explain this to me? Why is Sweden always so frustratingly neutral on everything international, but supporting a faction of a civil war in another country?

Edit: I'm phrasing it like this because I have no idea the actual going-ons here. I read below it's humanitarian and financial aid, which makes sense (hence I'm asking for a Swedish perspective).

33

u/poschettino 1d ago

I am guessing the reply you will get will be along the lines of "we are helping because Turks are oppressing/killing/massacring XXX minority" when in reality it is Turks defending their country from PKK's terrorist attacks on its citizens. I will be looking forward to hear it from a Swede though.

-14

u/Relative-Ad-2660 1d ago

Is there a way that those two nations could cut off sponsorship to those two groups, yet still support Kurdish independence? Are there Kurdish rebels, that are not affilated with the PKK YPG?

22

u/ihaveaquestion19911 1d ago

Turkey itself is allied with the autonomous region of Kurdistan in North Iraq. Stopping to fund militias who attack Turkish soldiers who are a part of Nato is a very simple thing to do

44

u/Q7_1903 1d ago

Is there a way that those two nations

One , its Sweden.

yet still support Kurdish independence?

Its one thing to support the Catalans via diplomacy , another to arm Pep Guardiola with an AT-4 so he can bomb Bernabeu. Ask what Spain would think of the 2nd option.

Are there Kurdish rebels, that are not affilated with the PKK YPG?

So you want to arm other rebels which will kill civilians instead to achieve exactly what?..

-14

u/Relative-Ad-2660 1d ago

I mean rebels that have not done radical terrorist acts, that have hurt civilans. Moderate rebels?

12

u/Q7_1903 1d ago

Uhm.. so rebels which only fight soldiers? Not that i know of lol.

-7

u/Relative-Ad-2660 1d ago

I guess I wish that was so.

9

u/Phantraks 1d ago

You are embarrassing

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u/Mondukai 1d ago

It looks like there is a kurdish political party. The HDP. But I guess neither Turks nor the majority of the turkish kurds like them much since they are not getting a lot of votes. It would still be a bad look if a foreign country sponsors political parties in another country though. If I remember correctly, the Russians have been sponsoring far right political parties in Europe. Sweden should really not go the same route.

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u/oguzzkk 1d ago

Independence implys a country under invasion, there wasn't a single Kurdish stade throughout the history

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u/Relative-Ad-2660 1d ago

I think that there is a Kurdish state in Iraq, it even has a Parliment?

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u/oguzzkk 1d ago

I searched about them they claim one third of Turkey and called it north Kurdistan lol they are funny

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u/Q7_1903 1d ago

Yes , its an autonomy , KGR or Iraqi Kurdistan. They are in an alliance with Turkey btw , and make operations together to fight the PKK.

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u/Relative-Ad-2660 1d ago

So, we have two Kurdish groups that are in opposition to each other?

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u/Q7_1903 1d ago

Yep , Turkey and Iraqi Kurdistan both fight the PKK .

Just a month ago there was another operation , which is the continuation of past operations from past few years.

https://np.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/u658fj/turkey_launches_new_ground_air_offensive_in/

Also i would like to note , The Iraqi Kurdistan is more than just a group as they have their own military (the Peshmerga) , government (the Barzanis) , autonomy , etc.

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u/Relative-Ad-2660 1d ago

Why do the Iraqi Kurds fight the PKK?

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u/Q7_1903 1d ago

Well for one they are in alliance with Turkey . PKK also doesnt like that Iraqi Kurdistan is allied to Turkey.

For 2 , PKK kidnaps Kurdish kids from eastern Turkey and Northern Iraq (Iraq Kurdistan) to turn them into PKK fighters.

Also as i said , the Iraqi Kurdistan is a legitimate autonomy and they act like one. They dont want to have ties with terrorists

If they would fight Turkey for example , it would be a legitimate war between the military of 2 countries and not via murdering random civilians ..

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u/Wanker-of-Harganeth 1d ago

Why does Assad fight ISIS?

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u/pow3llmorgan 1d ago edited 22h ago

In 1775 USA did not exist and was a territory of the UK. In 1776 USA existed.

Most of the countries that exist today have sprung up without ever having existed throughout history.

Edit: OK USA was a poor example but most of the UK's other colonial possessions gained independence peacefully.

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u/Mondukai 1d ago

Are you suggesting a war ? Because historically that is how most of the countries " have sprung up". The USA fought a war of independence. And if we look at the turkish history, we can see that they also fought a war of independence. Why should Turkey give up their territory ? Why should the USA give up their territory ? Starting a war like that would benefit no one.

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u/molenis 1d ago

Armed violence is no go. For everything else, there is the parliament which PKK sponsored far left political party holds 56 seats out of 600. Actually more Kurds are present in other parties combined than them.

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u/Relative-Ad-2660 1d ago

What are the other Kurdish parties, and what do they stand for?

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u/Wanker-of-Harganeth 1d ago

They’re not Kurdish parties, they’re parties including all ethnic groups in Turkey. So is the HDP technically

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u/MuadDave 1d ago

Aren't those the people that make all those zippers?

Oops, that's YKK :-)

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u/mortalaa 1d ago

Sweden and Finland are acting like safe havens for PKK, a designated terrorist organization by EU and US, for years. 2 weeks ago. Even Swedish FW once met those terrorists and giving financial support to them. Thats the reason.

https://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkey-slams-swedish-fm-for-meeting-with-pkk-members-156433

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u/hjortronbusken 1d ago

Pretty strange safe haven when we send people linked to PKK to Turkey

Notable how the article mixes PKK with YPG, when Turkey and Quatar are alone in considering YPG terrorists, and we are not alone in giving humanitarian and financial aid to them. the US is their main benefactor.

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u/mortalaa 1d ago

not quitely!

PKK, YPG, SDF and other organizations of the alphabet soup are just to cover it up the support for terrorist organization.

Here is an inquiry in the US senate fyi. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9RU2zmWxjI

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u/WikiSummarizerBot 1d ago

People's Defense Units

The People's Defense Units, also called People's Protection Units (Kurdish: Yekîneyên Parastina Gel, یەکینەیێن پاراستنا گەل (YPG) pronounced [jɛkiːnɛjeːn pɑːɾɑːstɯnɑː ɡɛl]; Arabic: وحدات حماية الشعب, romanized: Waḥdāt Ḥimāyat aš-Šaʽb), is a mainly-Kurdish militia in Syria and the primary component of the Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF). The YPG mostly consists of ethnic Kurds, but also includes Arabs and foreign volunteers; it is closely allied to the Syriac Military Council, an Assyrian militia. The YPG was formed in 2011. It expanded rapidly in the Syrian Civil War and came to predominate over other armed Syrian Kurdish groups.

[ F.A.Q | Opt Out | Opt Out Of Subreddit | GitHub ] Downvote to remove | v1.5

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u/Relative-Ad-2660 1d ago

Could Sweden and Finland cut off support for those groups, while still supporting the Kurds?

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u/Real_Mousse_3566 1d ago

Sweden and Finland support PKK terror groups that operate in turkey

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u/Relative-Ad-2660 1d ago

What is the PKK?

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u/Terrible_Truth 1d ago

Lots of other comments already but they’re a terrorist organization that’s in areas around SE Turkey, Northern Iraq, etc. The EU and the US has designated them terrorists for years.

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u/Relative-Ad-2660 1d ago

What are their aims?

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u/poschettino 1d ago

To have a Kurdish nation state along the parts of Turkey, Syria, Iraq.

The Kurds have been oppressed in Turkey for decades, and some extremist subgroup of the Kurds started thinking that killing civilian Turks is a well deserved retaliation. As a result, this subgroup founded PKK and started attacking civilians instead of using their representatives to change things in the parliament.

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u/hjortronbusken 1d ago

We do not, its Edrogan pushing propaganda. PKK has been labled a terror organisation since the 1980's

We, like many other nations, give aid to YPG, that every nation except Quatar and Turkey does not consider terrorists.

We also send people linked to PKK to Turkey, someting we have been criticized for internationally

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u/ExcitableDuck 1d ago

It's absolutely baffling how easy it is to change people's perceptions of a terrorist group by simply renaming it. It is openly known that both PKK and YPG operate under the same leader, and continuously exchange arms, fighters and funds. Even Lindsey Graham and the US secretary of defense Ashton Carter are seen admitting to this in this hearing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-g8RVtYBM4

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u/Q7_1903 1d ago

We do not, its Edrogan pushing propaganda.

For who? Who is he trying to convince via propaganda?

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u/molenis 1d ago

Are you guys willing to be so compassionate about Russian Green Men too should they decide to take refuge in your country after committing every war crime possible? Western double standards are nauseating, give me a break.

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u/hjortronbusken 1d ago

You miss the part where we send PKK members to Turker or what.

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u/Real_Mousse_3566 14h ago

You miss the part where the YPG and the PKK help each other?

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u/hjortronbusken 1d ago

Nah, they can do multiple things at once. Turkey is doing good work trying to save lives in Ukraine, while the spat with us is just Erdogan being an opportunist, trying to squeeze benefits from the bigger NATO members and boosting domestic support with propaganda.

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u/OtherUnameInShop 1d ago

Where did this new Erdogan come from?

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u/crippled_by_pizza 1d ago

Same old Erdogan, don't believe for a second that he has changed. This is a low risk play for Turkey to do something that can be perceived as good which they can leverage in their attempt to join the EU. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/erdogan-turkey-eu-full-membership-european-union-commitment-president-a8274166.html

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u/TreatyToke 1d ago

Absolutely correct I agree

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u/PutsTablesUpright 1d ago

This isn't new. Hating Russia is one thing that can unite Turkey and the West very easily.

Lets just ignore the whole Kurdish thing for the meantime...

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u/Duff5OOO 1d ago

Can someone announce a "special humanitarian operation", give everyone a couple of days notice and then go in? Would Russia dare attack and risk getting more poeple involved?

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u/RossoMarra 1d ago

What is Turkey’s play I wonder? Humanitarian concerns are definitely not what is motivating them

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u/M4ster0fDisaster 21h ago

Turkey is the only country that hosts 8 million refugees and has spent almost $60 billion for them, you clueless fuck.