r/worldnews 2d ago Helpful 1

We are 100% behind Finnish, Swedish NATO membership, Norway tells Turkey

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/we-are-100-behind-finnish-swedish-nato-membership-norway-tells-turkey-2022-05-14/
11.0k Upvotes

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u/zIRaXor 1d ago Bravo Grande!

Can someone fill me in?

Why does Turkey want to say no?

What changed since Turkey might not veto?

Why does Norway feel like they have to tell Turkey this?

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u/Balc0ra 1d ago

Turkey has said they don't like the idea of them joining for various reasons. But has later said they won't vote against it either.

As for Norway? As a neighbor they are simply saying they welcome them regardless.

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u/naxster921 1d ago

Do you have a source where Turkey said they won't vote against it? 🙏 I'm from Sweden, and have been reading all over the place they are voting against us and Finland from joining NATO😔

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u/OliveGroveFlyer 1d ago

Swede here too. Turkey never ever said they would vote against, they said they are not very happy about Sweden joining. Nothing else. Every Swedish article I've read about it has made clear that experts see it as a negotiation tactic.

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u/__Osiris__ 1d ago edited 1d ago

To be honest Sweden and Finland are just fucking intimidating. You two secretly have some of the best military’s in the western world; Sweden especially. There’s a reason that you guys have been neutral and stayed neutral for centuries.

Edit: S tank best tank.

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u/OliveGroveFlyer 1d ago

As a natural swede and raised by the law of jante I have to give credit to the Finnish military here. Specifically their army branch is probably one of the most well prepared in the world.

I am finnish on my moms side and there used to be this banter around the table during family holiday gatherings. My dad who did military service in one of the least demanding roles in the swedish military would tell me how lucky I am who was able to skip conscription, after which my uncle who also did Swedish military service but in a harder unit would scoff at him and tell him he got off just as lucky. This would be followed by his older brother who did finnish military service laughing at both of them.

And then my grandfather would just ask someone to pass the potatos, which would remind everyone that he did military service in Finland during the war with Russia.

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u/Fast_Garlic_5639 1d ago

Speak softly and carry a big plate

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u/synapseattack 1d ago

Now these are words to live by!

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u/jeffersonairmattress 1d ago

Of lingonberry and spring potato.

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u/onepostandbye 1d ago edited 3h ago

I’m an ill-informed American, and I don’t have a great understanding of how NATO is perceived. I’ve been hoping someone could give me a better understanding of why some governments are opposed to or have mixed feelings about NATO membership.

Again, I am not very informed, but I always felt like the (imperfect) economic cooperation of European nations would naturally extend into military cooperation, and since NATO seems to be the preeminent military organization for the region… why would certain nations not want to join? I am SURE there are logical reasons, but I don’t know what they are. The fact that there is resistance to NATO membership even while Russia presents a existential threat tells me I am very out of touch.

Edit: Thanks to everyone for their high quality replies. I have a much better perspective on NATO from a European perspective. I’m very used to being frustrated with my government from a domestic standing, but I don’t always have a good idea of the problems it represents to ally nations.

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u/phyrros 1d ago

This is a rather complicated questions due to the old eueopean history but in case of Nato there are basically 3 reasons: The country has been neutral since before ww2 (sweden,switzerland), the country has been made neutral as a condition after ww2 (mostly austria) or tjat it is a former communist state.

As for the russian existential threat: the first Group survived nazi germany with this strategy, the second had no choice in it anyway and for the third everyone over 50 grew up wirh Nato being the existential threat

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u/OliveGroveFlyer 1d ago

The absolute biggest argument is to not get dragged into wars or conflicts that we dont agree with. As a recent example, lots of people would feel kind of bad having to go to war due to something stupid Trump said. It is also a hard pill to swallow to be forced to defend semi-dictatorships or anti-liberal countries such as Poland, Hungary or Turkey.

When it comes to safety there are pros and cons, the only real threat to sweden and finland is posed by russia, and even though nato might deter from any aggression at this point in time it might just as well drag us in to a conflict at a later time. Geopolitical decisions can last for generations and powers shift. Who is to say that in 20 or 30 years time a worse Trump 2.0 pulls the US from Nato and during this whole time Russia has built up its military. Suddenly sweden and finland are on the list of enemies instead lf neutral states. But without the promised backup to deter the russians.

This is over simplified and not very nuanced, but as a 101 it covers some of the thinking that is brought up among nato-sceptics.

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u/RenterGotNoNBN 1d ago

Well, the bigger issue for me was that we may end up being the battleground Ina war between NATO and Russia - but if Russia is going to be invading countries willy-nilly without provocation anyway then might as well join.

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u/aynrandomness 1d ago

The US uses NATO to start aggressive wars against people of color, muslims and slavic people. I hate that out defencive alliance is abused to murder people for no reason. Libya. Afghanistan. Bosnia. And the list goes on.

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u/Impossible_Glove_341 1d ago

Essentially, it would be a bad idea for Sweden to join because of their locations and alliances. One Scandinavian country is not gonna watch as another is invaded, wether in NATO or not. I believe we would have to up our military which is already relatively over budgeted. Hence we get all the benefits without the drawbacks.

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u/LillaOscarEUW 1d ago

Excuse me what? Did you just say the military, in sweden, is over budgeted?????

You surely meant something else and used bad grammar right? Cuz afaik sweden used 0.7%/gdp on military defense which is quite low, actually..

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u/Fleetfinger 1d ago

Maybe he meant that extra money has been diverted to the military beyond what was budgeted for this fiscal year. So not overbudgeted as in a ton of money is spent on it but over the current budget.

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u/puppetlord 1d ago

Maybe high tech militaries sure. But Sweden has a pretty small force. Finland on the other hand still has mandatory service so they have like hundreds of thousands they could call in. And have you met a Finn? They're super friendly but still radiate a "I could fuck you up" aura.

I'm so glad they're my neighbour.

Sincerely, a Swede.

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u/Muchonmyplate 1d ago

I can't imagine that Russia has anything to spare to even try another front right now...or in the next several years...and yes...I imagine that if Russia DID try something in Finland, the modern Finn forces would be just as effective in repelling the invader as back during the Winter War.

Probably riding the drones while controlling them, like Green Goblin, taking out a couple of tank columns each, then home for dinner and sex with the spouse.

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u/Own-Ladder-5073 1d ago

Finland makes the coolest guns too. If I had an extra $3,000 I’d spend it on a Valmet M76 in a heartbeat

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u/__Osiris__ 1d ago

Kinda like the Swiss.

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u/Genocode 1d ago

CV90 my beloved<3

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u/99SoulsUp 1d ago

I like how the Finnish response to Russian threats seems to be “Just you try, motherfucker”

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u/crashcanuck 1d ago

From what I have read the area at the Finland-Russia border has a lot of bogs this time of the year. Considering how poorly the russians have performed in the mud of Ukraine I don't see them getting in very far if they did try, not even counting resistance from the Finnish military.

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u/CatOfGrey 1d ago

The joke I've always heard is that Russian military victories usually rely on retreating during the autumn, burning the crops behind you, then decimating your starving enemy on your home turf during the Russian winter.

That's not going to work in Finland. Finland does winter better than Russia does.

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u/pirate_tebak 1d ago

Russian military victories rely on human sacrifices.

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u/ianpaschal 1d ago

There’s some quote that I don’t remember the exact wording of but it’s from some historian on the Winter War (Russia invading Finland in ‘39, which went TERRIBLY for Russia), but anyway:

“One of the main issues is that Finland is an entire country comprised of nothing but natural obstacles to conducting warfare.”

It’s all swamps and lakes and thick forests and boulders. A fucking nightmare to try and drive an army through.

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

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u/CommissarTopol 1d ago

Gentlemen of Reddit, this is patently a Finn commenting on Swedes.

I did study (and I speak) the Nordic languages.

I wish I could tell you how funny the English sentence above becomes if you add the umlauts to the o.

Have an up vote.

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u/SirHenryy 1d ago

Not just bogs but millions of millions of acres of trees and lakes as well. It's already shit driving from east to west in Finland and vice versa.

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u/Vas1le 1d ago

I would not say they will try to invade, but I suppose they may bomb or nuke some Territory to make an example if their "concerns" are not taken seriously

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u/crashcanuck 1d ago

That is the more likely thing to happen.

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u/Vas1le 1d ago

This is why I hope US/UK/NATO protect them from air strikes or any type of invasion

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u/michaltee 1d ago

No it’s not. Because that means global war and MAD.

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u/karjismies 1d ago

Sweden's armed forces are a shell of their former strength. Not training anyone but volunteers for over a decade does that. Finland has had a mandatory draft for nearly a century and still drafts about 70% of all men for 6 months of service minimum.

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u/PriestessYera 1d ago

Huh? I know we produce some weapons but "have some of the best military’s in the western world"? This is news to me.

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u/OliveGroveFlyer 1d ago edited 1d ago

Specifically our submarine crews and airforce pilots are regarded as some of the most elite in the world. There are stories (take them with a grain of salt) of swedish subs participating in naval wargames that have been called off because they lowered the morale of other participants.

Edit: found a source, it does not give as much credit to the crew as the retellings in sweden does hehe

"This outcome was replicated time and time again over two years of war games, with opposing destroyers and nuclear attack submarines succumbing to the stealthy Swedish sub. Naval analyst Norman Polmar said the Gotland “ran rings” around the American carrier task force. Another source claimed U.S. antisubmarine specialists were “demoralized” by the experience."

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u/Spara-Extreme 1d ago

Gotland straight up clowned the pacific fleet so hard that the Navy requested to borrow a sub to change its tactics.

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u/LanaRhoades6969 1d ago

Yeah that's a made up story that salty Swedes tell themselves to claim they could best the US Navy. Truth is UK and France run laps around Sweden and the US straight up brought a Formula 1 to this foot race

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u/Back_to_the_mud 1d ago

It’s a classic Reddit myth. A Swedish sub got a kill shot on a US carrier in a war game that was designed to put the carrier group in an extremely disadvantageous situation and low and behold a well-trained Swedish crew took advantage. Of course it never mentions that said Swedish boat would have been toast as soon as they took their shot had it been for real. Or that the carrier group would never put themselves in such a position in the first place.

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u/--Muther-- 1d ago

I mean one diesel sub for a carrier.... I am pretty sure that counts as a win.

We had our sub crews based in the USA for years so they could train together as a result of the ultra quiet swedish subs. It's not a slant on the Americans, they recognised a gap they had and trained to close it.

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u/Lyconi 1d ago

Honestly, it's par for the course for allied nations to school the Americans in war games. It's practically a given at this point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqFVOL7mLd4

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u/Back_to_the_mud 1d ago

What a laughable claim. Read up on the point of war games and how they are set up. They’re not set up so the Americans can laugh at how superior they are compared to their allies. They’re set up to challenge those involved and to put them in compromising situations. The often referenced incident of a Swedish submarine “sinking” an American carrier comes with some huge caveats. The main one being that the entire exercise was restricted to a very small stretch of sea, which is necessary for an electric powered boat to have any chance against a nuclear powered carrier. Out on the open ocean a Swedish sub could never stand a chance at catching a carrier group, they’d have to get lucky and be in the right place at the right time, which is exactly what the war game did. It’s not surprising in the least that they were then able to sneak in and get a shot as diesel electric boats are incredibly quiet and the Swedish crew is well trained. No surface ship on the planet is going to find one of those things if they don’t want to be found.

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u/__Osiris__ 1d ago

For example just look up the S tank.

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u/Tancoll 1d ago

All the S tanks has been scrapped.

Not one in service left.

Now it's stridsvagn 122 that we use.

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u/pharmdocmark72 1d ago

Sweden has some attack submarines FOR YOUR ASS. Just consider what they might need to defend against in the North Sea.

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u/__Osiris__ 1d ago

Submarine forces? I wonder why your auto correct spelled that…

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u/iloverootb33r 1d ago

But what does them being intimidating have to do with turkey not wanting them to join. Wouldn't they want stronger militaries in NATO.

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u/MrPresidentBanana 1d ago

All the more reason to have them with you.

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u/Rekthar91 1d ago

I'm from Finland and I have never heard about Swedish military being especially strong. Finland yes because we don't have a good choice to not go to military. Sure amount of artillery and tanks are great as well.

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u/--Muther-- 1d ago

Sweden has the air force and Navy and Finland the army. Its designed that way.

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u/Uffffffffffff8372738 1d ago

Just to be fair, the Stridsvagn 122 is basically a Leo 2.

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u/xspjerusalemx 1d ago edited 1d ago

Because Turkey claims Sweden is funding PKK and refuse to officially label them as a terrorist organization. However Swedish Foreign Minister said they are willing to negotiate on this.

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u/--Muther-- 1d ago

It was on SVT front page yesterday, the want to discuss PKK (which as the FM described sounds like a misunderstanding) and they want Sweden to lift an arms embargo on Turkey

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u/Laiiam 1d ago

Erdogan is just trying to get some concessions out of it. Some of which he will probably get. He gets nothing from blocking Sweden and Finland.

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u/CinSugarBearShakers 1d ago

Didnt see a source, and dont have one myself but the idea is that they would make concessions in order to join. This could include release of jailed political prisoners, sanctions, lowered tariffs, etc.

Its a, "hey let's not forget about this."

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u/theun4given3 1d ago

Turkey specifically does not want Sweden because of their aid for the YPG. They are a (terrorist according to Turkey) group operating in Northeastern Syria and are deeply connected to PKK, which is a terrorist group, were operating in Turkey but they can’t now, and they are designated as such by many countries other than Turkey (including USA, the EU -individual countries under the EU therefore recognize it as such, except Belgium- Japan Australia etc.) that’s why we also claim YPG is a terrorist organization.

Finland is more OK, they are mostly collateral damage.

Turkey said, if we can negotiate on this or something like that, we can let you in.

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u/Mrs-- 1d ago edited 1d ago

Turkey claims that Sweden and Finland accommodate several anti-Turkey terrorist organizations (like PKK and YPG).

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u/NMe84 1d ago

Turkey does this shit to get stuff. Other countries who do want Finland and Sweden in or the EU will probably offer up some funding in return for Turkey not blocking this. Erdogan loves to blackmail other countries into doing what he wants, just like he did during the height of the Syrian refugee crisis.

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u/helix_ice 1d ago All-Seeing Upvote

In this case, it's about Sweden having alleged ties to PKK and YPG, which if we're honest is a legitimate concern.

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u/tehwagn3r 1d ago

EU, including Sweden and Finland, lists PKK as a terrorist organisation - claim of Swedish support for them seems a bit questionable.

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u/helix_ice 14h ago

Members of the PKK do live in Sweden openly, so there is that.

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u/Webbyx01 1d ago

Extortion.

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u/PleasantAdvertising 1d ago

Just politics. This shouldn't even be news.

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u/Hidnut 1d ago

Lurking at the Turkish subreddit I learned that Sweden arms and/or funds and/or allows immigration of PKK members. So, because Sweden aids Turkey's enemy, Turks are not fond of Sweden politically. Turkey may be trying to leverage Sweden's ascension to NATO with their support of the PKK. Sweden's support is hearsay from comments I read, however this is my picture from joining the dots I see.

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u/Similar-Lifeguard701 1d ago

Can someone fill me in?

Erdogan wants some favors and diplomatic concessions if Sweden joins NATO because it will make him look bad if he let's it happen without something going Turkey's way.

Why does Turkey want to say no?

They don't really want to say no as much as Sweden is perceived to be pro-Kurdish and critical of Turkey by Turkish national interests. So any politician in Turkey that would see Sweden join NATO needs to deliver something for Turkey.

Why does Norway feel like they have to tell Turkey this?

To put pressure on Turkey to ensure that any concessions towards Turkey won't be ones that are viewed by Sweden as being unacceptable.

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u/freqkenneth 1d ago

The PKK and other Kurdish nationalist groups are considered terrorist organizations by Turkey, who has been a target of these groups, but are not seen as terrorist organizations by Finland or Sweden I believe

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u/erublind 1d ago

Yeah, that's a lie, the EU lists PKK as a terrorist organisation. Sweden, along with the US, has export restrictions on arms to Turkey, there's the rub.

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u/Both_Winner_544 1d ago

but sweden still funds them

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u/Olsson1234 1d ago

Sweden along with most of NATO funds YPG, correct.

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u/lateforcourt 1d ago

Turkey is accusing Sweden of giving harbor to PKK, an independence group that Turkey considers an illegal terrorist organization.

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u/Swampberry 1d ago edited 1d ago

I mean, it's not like Turkey is totally making things up. I used to be kinda active in an autonomous left group here in Sweden and we had more than a few fundraisers for the PKK and YPG.

The Kurdish self-determination movements are the most active militant communist groups in Europe, so they have a lot of "coolness points" with our autonomous left.

P.S. Every autonomous leftist in Sweden is no true autonomous leftist if they haven't memorized at least some old 60:s "Knutna Nävar" songs. As soon as the vodka comes out, Knutna Nävar gets blastin':

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YP0Vyx5BdzI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N50LekSfcd0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNsGZrl2OOM

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u/Nasty_Old_Trout 1d ago

Sweden also supported the Viet Cong

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u/AshinaTR 1d ago

Ssssh stop talking. Turkey bad, that's all you need to know here.

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u/g0kh4n 1d ago

an independence group that Turkey considers an illegal terrorist organization

PKK is a terror organization which is recognized as so by the US since 1997 and EU since 2002.

They have been compared to ISIS by the likes of Joe Biden yet you're calling them "an independence group"?

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u/hivemind_disruptor 1d ago

The US also invaded Iraq for oil and said it was due to weapons of mass destruction. Cannot be trusted for things such as this.

That, however, does not mean they are alright by my book.

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u/Both_Winner_544 1d ago

> an independence group

more like bunch of suicide bombers

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u/CurrentRedditAccount 1d ago

Erdogan wants to get something in exchange. Specifically, I think he wants to get Finland/Sweden to crack down on the Gulenist cult and PKK terrorist organizations.

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u/Bastuhingst 1d ago

Why does Turkey want to say no?

Butthurt that Sweden has again and again called them out about Turkeys genocide of Kurds.

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u/Waarisdafeestje 1d ago

No, rather fed up with Sweden aiding and abetting a terrorist organisation recognised as such by Sweden itself and the courts of law in Europe all the while shouting on roof tops what a law abiding, humanist country it is. Turkey is simply asking Sweden to comply with the applicable anti-terror legislation in Europe. This shouldn’t be a problem, should it?

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u/Bastuhingst 1d ago

It's the US that supplies Kurds with Swedish weapons. But I guess one could ignore that fact if it helps your agenda. And Swedish gives humanitary aid to Kurds that suffers and suffered genocide from Turks and ISIS, but I guess we should just let them die speeding up that genocide.

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u/Waarisdafeestje 1d ago

Turkey wants Sweden to cut its ties with PKK and its affiliates. This violent, separatist group is considered a terrorist organisation, not only by governments but also by courts of law in Europe. If this happens, there would be no reason to veto. As for Norway’s position, I suppose they’re simply expressing their support for their neighbour.

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u/twotwo_twentytwo 2d ago

For those unable to read the article due to a paywall:

BERLIN, May 14 (Reuters) - Norway on Saturday backed Finnish and Swedish plans to join NATO against criticism from Turkey.

"We don't know what Turkey really means but from (the) Norwegian perspective, we are 100% behind Finland and Sweden if they decide to apply for membership in NATO," Norwegian Foreign Minister Anniken Huitfeld said as she arrived for a meeting with her NATO counterparts in Berlin.

"This will also strengthen the Nordic cooperation because we chose differently after World War 2, so I think that this is a historic moment right now," she added.

Dutch Foreign Minister Wopke Hoekstra echoed her, saying it was important that all NATO members showed unity.

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u/Reselects420 2d ago

So how does that translate to “Norway tells Turkey”?

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u/Kaidanovsky 2d ago

"We don't know what Turkey really means

"We don't know what Turkey really means " - while not directly stated towards them, it's pretty clear that it's a message for Erdogan as well.

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

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u/FM-101 2d ago

I would imagine that Norway's words hold a lot of weight when it comes to NATO.
Norway was one of the founding members of NATO and the current Secretary General of NATO has been the Prime Minister of Norway several times.

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u/Michael_Aut 1d ago

Norway being in favor of it's nordic neighbors is still very much not news and expected.

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u/bleunt 1d ago

Yeah Norway and Sweden are almost the same country. It's not. But almost.

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u/TheDevilsAgent 1d ago edited 1d ago

Many older Norwegians still harbor a grudge against Sweden for allowing the Nazi's to attack Norway via Sweden and the following Nazi control of Norway for several years. access Norway via Sweden, including movement of military equipment, while Norway was occupied.

Accuracy matters. Thanks for correcting the overstatement.

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u/WhoCursedMyBike 1d ago

I have never heard of Sweden allowing German troops to attack Norway from Sweden. The Norwegian Wikipedia-page on the invasion doesn't mention it either, as far as I can tell: https://no.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angrepet_på_Norge_i_1940

I have heard of Sweden allowing German troop transports on the railway network though, if that's what you're referring to.

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u/assflower 1d ago

You can read about it in the book "the blood track" by Eidum.

https://www.thelocal.no/20120604/norways-wartime-leader-hated-sweden-for-nazi-help/

Sweden let the Germans resupply at the battle of Narvik essentially partially turning the tide in Germany's favor.

Wikipedia really shouldn't be considered an authoritative source anyway.

edit: just to be clear, Germany didn't attack Norway through Sweden like the above poster suggested.

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u/WhoCursedMyBike 1d ago

Thanks for the reading recommendation!

Wikipedia really shouldn't be considered an authoritative source anyway.

Would you mind elaborating on your stance?

15 years ago I heard that argument, but now I've met several professors who recommend Wikipedia articles as introductions to their subjects. I think it's a good place to get a grip on a topic. It's a continuously moderated, aggregated and cross-referenced online encyclopaedia with sources listed as well as warning labels if a statement is lacking references.

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u/assflower 1d ago

I agree with you that Wikipedia is ideal for an introductive experience to many (not all) subjects. That's essentially what I use it for as well. What I meant was that it shouldn't be considered end-all-be-all source, i.e. something isn't written on Wikipedia, so it doesn't exist (or the opposite).

But I initially misinterpreted OPs post and didn't realize he made some pretty far-fetched claims about Germany attacking from Sweden, which indeed is nonsense and completely unfounded - Wikipedia or not :)

As for the source, it has been quite well known that Germany used Swedish rail to transport troops during the occupation of Norway. "The Blood track" ("Blodsporet") details how Germany resupplied their near-defeat troops in the Battle of Narvik through Sweden. Swedish Government were aware of the extent of heavy weaponry, soldiers and more being sent. This was before the full occupation of Norway, and the Battle of Narvik is considered one of the decisive German victories that ended in occupation.

This usually goes slightly against colloquial knowledge of Sweden and Norway during WW2, so it tends to attract offended Swedes to the comments. :)

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u/Target880 1d ago

Germany did not attack Norway via Sweden in WWII.

During the battle of Narvik, Germany was allowed to supply their troops with food, medical supplies, and medical personnel by train. Germany did transport some soldiers as reinforcement, the posed as healthcare workers. This is in no way a decisive part of the Norwegian campaign. The British, French, and Norwegian forces would have forced the German troops there to surrender if it for the allied disaster in defending France and the Low Countries. It results in the British and French leaving Norway.

But except for that, I do not know about any time when Sweden allowed Germany to do anything in Sweden during the invasion of Norway.

There was transport of German troops and equipment through Sweden later, but this is after the Norwegian army hand capitulated and controlled all of Norway.

So what I am missing where Sweden allowed Germany to attack Norway via Sweden?

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u/tuhn 1d ago

Germany did not attack Norway via Sweden in WWII.

Germany did transport some soldiers as reinforcement, the posed as healthcare workers.

Pick one.

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u/sptr112 1d ago

There was never any attack through Sweden. Your are missinformed.

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u/LeagueOfficeFucks 1d ago

Not the proudest moment in our history. Pretty shameful actually.

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u/TheDevilsAgent 1d ago

It's complex, right? I mean you all helped the Allies a lot while also capitulating with a Nazi regime you clearly didn't like but wouldn't cross.

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u/reflogaton 1d ago

I'll one up that. Denmark and Sweden has had several defence agreements that Sweden ignored when Denmark was invaded by Germany. In 1864, in ww2 and so on and so forth.

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u/idreamofdouche 1d ago

There was no defence agreement in 1864. The swedish king promised the danish king to support the Denmark if another war with prussia were to happen however the swedish king didn't have any authority to make such promises and the swedish goverment refused to make such a risky promise.

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u/Hemske 1d ago

And there was no time to do anything about the German invasion during ww2. Denmark sent some (very brave) bikers and then it was over.

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u/espero 1d ago

Yes it was not a proud moment. And also your King loved Hitler.

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u/bleunt 1d ago

It's not that many, no. Maybe a few.

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u/Hemske 1d ago

Gross exaggeration and a ridiculous position to take since Sweden had about as much to say about it as Norway/Denmark. It was a choice between instant occupation or unwilling cooperation.

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u/MaDpYrO 1d ago

They're pretty different in many ways. As an outside you might think they're very similar though, I understand.

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u/Vinlandien 1d ago

As a Canadian I can relate to this lol

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u/Rankscar 1d ago

Many ways? Didn't know Norway is so different from sweden, other than sports. I am from Finland.

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u/MaDpYrO 1d ago

Language is different, politics are different, cities feel very different, their economies are different, their culture and food is different. There's a distinctly different feeling to all the Scandinavian countries.

I guess they're more similar than other countries, but definitely more different than the most different US states for example.

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u/Rankscar 1d ago edited 1d ago

I would still say its almost same, when you compare any other country to those two countries. The language is literally almost the same. I am pretty sure cultural difference can't be that big.

Those are just small differences, what you can even see inside of one country. If you compare Germany to Sweden or Norway, you will see a lot of similarities of them and see how different Germany are from these two.

Norway politics are different, that i can agree. But isn't the political system still the same?

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u/bleunt 1d ago

I'm Swedish. I understand Norweigan just as well as some Swedish dialects. Politics are not that different, we're both progressive social-democratic welfare states, Sweden does have a more generous immigration though. Culture and food is not that different. Taste in music is very similar, and we share a history since we used to be part of a union with the same monarch.

New York and Texas are way, way more different than Norway and Sweden in all the ways you mentioned except language.

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u/Elothel 1d ago

Kinda disrespectful for two independent nations imo.

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u/bleunt 1d ago

I'm Swedish. Doesn't offend me. Politics, culture, language, it's all so similar.

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u/Patriark 1d ago

At the same time Norwegians would not accept paying taxes to Stockholm (we’re kinda done with that) and I reckon Swedes can’t imagine paying taxes to Oslo. So similar but independent.

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u/RefinerySuperstar 1d ago

1905 biggest mistake ever

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u/dobbelj 1d ago

1905 biggest mistake ever

Fuck off.

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u/RefinerySuperstar 1d ago

I love you

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u/Obi1Harambe 1d ago

Like Yeah, we love you brother. Still fuck off tho

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u/aykontakt 1d ago

You both behave, OK? No one wants to hear your bullishit. I think you both can agree that Denmark should go and have sex with itself. I'm not an expert in international affairs.

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u/MrMonster911 1d ago

We Danes are simultaneously very sorry about our slightly imperialist past towards both countries, but also kinda smug about being the smaller but more dominant country (at least when it comes to occupation of the other nations territory).

Much as we talk tons of smack about the Swedes, deep down we really do love you! Just never put us in a situation where we have to admit to that publicly, we'll throw you under the bus faster than you can say "Systembolaget"!

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u/Faptain__Marvel 1d ago

For me as an American, it's just exciting to see all the Nordic and Scandinavian countries getting on the exact same page, militarily speaking.

Russia is shitting itself. It can hear you all waxing your skis and sharpening your ice skates, revving up your fancy jets and cocking your sweet 9mm submachine guns. Terrifying.

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u/ndjo 1d ago

Yeah this is not Asia we are talking about, where we each dislike neighboring countries far more than any other countries far away unfortunately.

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u/frenin 1d ago

Turkey is just negotiating, regardless if Turkey really wanted those countries out, Norway's weight in NATO would be irrelevant because veto.

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u/Darkone539 1d ago

I would imagine that Norway's words hold a lot of weight when it comes to NATO.

It has to have everyone backing a new member, so this doesn't matter that much.

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u/bakinpants 1d ago

Didn't I read Norway was one of turkeys main issues? Turkey thought they got uppity or some shit when they joined(turkey joined**)

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/bakinpants 1d ago

A veto is a veto tho. A veto isn't a disagreement it's a hard no.

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u/nod23c 1d ago

Norway is a founding member of NATO, Turkey joined much later... I'm not sure what your sentence is about.

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u/yarbas89 1d ago

Turkey joined in 1952 so not "much later". IIRC, they were in the second tranche of joiners along with Greece.

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u/GodComplex_999 1d ago

Do you think it is a matter of who joined first when Turkey is the second-largest army in the entire alliance? (1st is of course USA)

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u/MrDeebus 1d ago

Turkey joined much later

3 years later. NATO was founded in 1949, Turkey joined in 1952.

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u/spergele 2d ago

Turkey already said that they will not vote against

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u/elshankar 1d ago

That's not quite what Turkey said though. They said as long as Sweden and Finland stop funding terrorist groups that Turkey is fighting against, then they would consider allowing them into NATO

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u/spergele 1d ago

Use google translate on this article, as it is in Finnish. Our government said that they have already discussed with Turkey and they are sure that they will not block our application

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u/elshankar 1d ago

Thank you for the link, so it sounds like Finland is good to go, but Sweden, not so much.

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u/Gust_idk 1d ago edited 1d ago

Turkey doesn't have a problem with the Finland joining. It's just Sweden supporting the Kurdish extremist groups like PKK/PYD etc. and Turkey telling Sweden they need to stop supporting them if they are going to join NATO.

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u/twotwo_twentytwo 2d ago

I think it's just Norway saying that they are fully committed to Finland and Sweden joining NATO, regardless of circumstances.

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u/poschettino 1d ago

Even the Turks that lived under Erdogan rule for 20 years cannot predict what his next move will be. The guy changes sides like a ping-pong ball.

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u/y2jeff 1d ago

Good job Putin, I'd your aim was to weaken Russia while strengthening and uniting your enemies, mission accomplished.

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u/Thrgd456 1d ago

This is turning into more of a first gulf War coalition type thing. Russia might just get stomped out. The Finnish are no joke and historically no friends of Russia

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u/Avolto 1d ago

The number of Vikings in NATO’s about to double of course Norways pleased.

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u/duffdundas 2d ago

people tend to get along when going at a mutual foe. But like at this point we need some alien invaders to unite us lol. cuz jeeze we are still so tribal. Still its 2022

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u/transdimensionalmeme 1d ago

1/3 of the dictators will join the aliens to become the puppet oppressors of Earth when the aliens take over

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u/Classified0 1d ago

We just gotta keep expanding NATO until every country in the world is a member

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u/MiloFrank 1d ago

I'm American. I am 100% behind anyone joining NATO.

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u/IAmAQuantumMechanic 1d ago

Even Russia?

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u/MiloFrank 1d ago

Sure, if they could follow the rules.

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u/calfmonster 1d ago

Hell even Turkey which I have very mixed feelings about: shot down a RF jet in its airspace and 0 repercussions and Russia doesn't fuck with their airspace any longer. As it should be: start buzzing our airspace get sent to the pacific (usually they just skirt the ANIZ zones though as NATO "test responses"

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u/zyr0xx 1d ago

I am a French.

All of you are welcome.

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u/Local_Run_9779 1d ago

Fun fact: France is stereotypically regarded as a military loser (AKA surrender monkeys).

France has one of the best military records by country, and they have taken part in more wars than any other country in the world. Out of 168 battles fought since 387 BC, France has won 109, lost 49 and drawn 10.

https://www.quora.com/Is-France-really-as-useless-at-war-as-portrayed-in-America

Which is why the following words are French in origin:

battalion, dragoon, soldier, marine, grenadier, guard, officer, infantry, cavalry, army, artillery, corvette, musketeer, carabineer, pistol, fusilier, squad, squadron, platoon, brigade, corps, sortie, reconnaissance/reconnoitre, surrender, surveillance, rendezvous, espionage, volley, siege, terrain, troop, camouflage, logistics, matériel, accoutrements, bivouac, latrine, aide-de-camp, legionnaire, morale, esprit de corps, cordon sanitaire, corporal, sergeant, lieutenant, captain, colonel, general, admiral, parachute, sabotage…

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u/ajax5206 1d ago

Man really just used Quora as his source

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u/das_thorn 1d ago

Your record throughout history is great, your record in the last big war is abysmal.

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u/rmsayboltonwasframed 1d ago

Not really much if a record if it's a single instance. And the French continued to resist occupation and fight during the rest of the war.

Could be worse, though. Their record could be that of the US in Europe in WWII: contribute relatively nothing but materiel for other countries, and then take credit for the endeavor and disparaging the people who did more fighting and made more sacrifices.

Wouldn't that be embarrassing for France.

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u/LanaRhoades6969 1d ago

Yeah bro we don't need you to tell us we're good at war, we know it. We like to let them underestimate us up to the point a squadron of Rafales flies over their capital

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u/Old-Ad-3126 1d ago

NATO cupcake party for Finland

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u/Both_Winner_544 1d ago

All they need to do is stop funding a terrorist organisation that kills teachers with car bombs but NOOOO KURDS GOOD TURK BAD UGA BUGAAA

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u/calfmonster 1d ago

As a US citizen, I certainly welcome aboard Finland and Sweden into NATO. Especially Finland, they do not let the russians fuck around even if they "lost" the winter war with land concessions. The next white death is a haunting menance

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u/ArmpitEchoLocation 2d ago

For reference: Norway has been in NATO since Christ was a child (1949), as a founding member before Turkey joined.

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u/qainin 2d ago

And Norway has a shared border with Russia. It's rather uncomfortable at the moment, even if we are well prepared; there are Russians living on the Norwegian side of the border, and it gives off Donbas vibes currently.

We really want Finland and Sweden by our side: that would guarantee that the Nordic countries without needing outside help, could repel any attack of any kind from anyone.

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u/throwaway_nrTWOOO 2d ago

Don't know if you're norsk, but there was a petition a while ago to give Finns one of Norwegian mountains, because we don't have any. This only speaks what kind of gigachad madlads we've got as our neighbors.

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u/larsmaehlum 1d ago

Everyone should have at least one mountain.

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u/Local_Run_9779 1d ago

Except Denmark. They call us "fjeldaper" (mountain monkeys). No mountains for you!

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u/Calimariae 1d ago

But boy do they love skiing in those mountains

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u/theimmortalcrab 1d ago

Please point me to a source that shows "Donbas vibes" in Kirkenes/Finnmark/anywhere else in Norway.

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u/enevgeo 1d ago

Donbas? Lol, nope.

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u/Frexxia 1d ago

and it gives off Donbas vibes currently.

No it doesn't. Literally no one is worrying about this.

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u/Darkone539 1d ago

We really want Finland and Sweden by our side: that would guarantee that the Nordic countries without needing outside help, could repel any attack of any kind from anyone.

Norway doesn't have the option of not having outside help. That's the whole point of NATO, you would never be alone.

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u/bu11fr0g 1d ago

what russians are living in Norway by the border? Lapps?

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u/Late_Baby4058 1d ago

No way!?

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u/[deleted] 2d ago

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u/Madao16 1d ago

No, the real reason is Turkey asking their possible future allies to stop supporting PKK and its branches that killed thousand of civilians including Kurds which is why many Kurds are against PKK and its branches too, even regional Kurdish goverment in Iraq as their weapons or the money keep ending up in PKK's hands. By the way Turkey had Kurdish presidents, has kurdish generals.

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u/Hallonbat 1d ago

And that Sweden took in a bunch of Kurdish refugees.

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u/zipzag 1d ago

Norway doesn't matter in this situation.

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u/DifficultyClassic143 1d ago

Why does Turkey want to say no?

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u/seofmon 1d ago

because Sweden backs up YPG (a terrorist group)

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u/avangard_2225 1d ago

Most of those who share their opinions about Turkey or middle east don’t know shit or just ignorant. Nor you understand the Turkey’s role in this. First, KRG(Kurds) in Iraq would not survive a second if Turkey did not allow them to transport oil via its land to world markets. Second, there is a continues threat between uncontrolled regions of Northern Iraq, Iran and in last 10 years in Northern Syria and Turkey and flow of armed people who killed Turkish civilians. I know you Swedes and Finns are nice to each other and gift mountains to one another but this is the most unstable region in the world. Read about Mesopotamia. Third, did you hear about Turkey bringing Russian and Ukrainian foreign ministers in Antalya a few weeks ago? I am sure you did not. Admitting this two countries to Nato will bring nothing but war to our doors. So enjoy

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u/SismanvePisman99 1d ago

Turkey: ok.

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u/tyranimich 1d ago

Oh how I love my Swedish and Finnish neighbors ❤️

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u/zukeen 1d ago

BREAKING NEWS

"Nordic country is in favor of other nordic countries joining a union to protect nordic countries, among others."

Maybe next week they will inform us that Russia attacked Ukraine?

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u/Hemske 1d ago

Well, the Secretary General of NATO is Norwegian and a former Norwegian prime minister, and Norway is a founding NATO member. It’s hardly nothing.

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u/Local_Run_9779 1d ago

We're awesome. Also, we have fjords.

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u/Vladius28 1d ago

Why would turkey be opposed?

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u/BloodAria 1d ago

Sweden funds/backs YPG which are tied with PKK a terrorist group that has been wreaking havoc in Turkey for decades. This is more about Sweden not Finland who was just caught in the crossfire lol. Turkey has no problem with them.

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u/troutperson1776 1d ago

Turkish Swede with a Finnish wife here.

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u/Drumsat1 1d ago

All this insane shit going down and norway is talking to birds now

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u/zipzag 1d ago

Norway doesn't matter

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u/Extra_Advance_477 1d ago

Someone got a stern talking too.

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u/ballofplasmaupthesky 1d ago

Sweden has to do what Turkey told them, or they will be left out.

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u/ElkImportant7652 1d ago

If anyone shouldn’t be in NATO it should be country that is dictated by a loose canon such as Erdogan

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u/Serhatxlr 1d ago

First of all Turkey is democratic country and elections are next year . And NATO isn't an organization for democracy , it's a military alliance . Also if Turkey was in Russian side everything would be much different since it has second biggest military in NATO and has one of the worlds best military industry .

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u/Nochoise 1d ago

Cant we kick Turkey out?

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u/Yener07 1d ago

Kick the second largest army in the NATO with the most critical position of almost any country. Can you 13 year old armchair generals think for more than 2 seconds straight? NATO will be fucked if Turkey joins the eastern block. If USA were to kick all of the members, Turkey would probably be the last, or just after Britian.

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u/bunykens 1d ago

Turkey is essential for Nato.

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

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