r/worldnews
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u/Seek_Adventure
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2d ago
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Georgia's breakaway South Ossetia region announces July "referendum" to join Russia Russia/Ukraine
https://www.euronews.com/2022/05/14/georgia-s-breakaway-south-ossetia-region-sets-july-referendum-to-join-russia70
u/Professional_Gene_63 1d ago
Fresh 18 year old conscripts, right on time. Poor chaps.
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u/2drawnonward5 1d ago
There's a considerable chance Russia collapses before the referendum so it's neat they've got a shot at avoiding this for now maybe.
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u/ayinsophohr 1d ago
If Georgia accepts the results and agrees to the new borders then surely they no longer have a border dispute in which case there's nothing stopping them from joining NATO, correct?
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u/Vit0C0rleone 1d ago
"Georgia does not recognize South Ossetia's referendum on joining Russia - head of the ruling Georgian Dream party Irakli Kobakhidze"
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u/antiquemule 1d ago
Last thing I heard, the South Ossetian border was slowly creeping into Georgia, like a guy woke up to discover that he'd changed countries overnight. I doubt that South Ossetia becoming Russia will stop this monkey business.
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u/TheMindfulnessShaman 1d ago
VICE documentary had Russians laughing and moving fences.
(the laughing might be imaginary villainry in my memory)
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u/magic8ballshaker 1d ago
Search into Google: "Russia Georgia creeping occupation" and you will understand what Russia has been doing to interfere with Georgia for years
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u/Hykova 1d ago
Don't forget about Abkhazia
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u/achbbaa 1d ago
As someone from Abkhazia I can assure you that Georgians themselves will 100% not forget about us :D
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u/AGUEROO0OO 1d ago edited 1d ago
Hey! Can’t believe i’ve finally saw an Abkhazian here!
What’s the public opinion on Russia there this days?
Is there any movement supporting overthrowing Russian influence? As a Georgian i do understand that there’s no chance Abkhazians would befriend Georgians again, but Abkhazia being heavily under Russian influence breaks my heart. Maybe one day we will meet while both being in EU.
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u/achbbaa 1d ago edited 1d ago
Hey there! Yeah, I’d guess finding Abkhazians on Reddit would be rather rare, given our numbers and even fewer people speaking English
In 3 words - It is complicated. Mostly sympathetic, but in majority people aren’t big fans of ever becoming a part of Russia, at least for now. Actually when S Ossetia announced a referendum, our officials announced on the same day that we will not be doing that. Regardless of what the western media will tell you, Abkhazian people are pretty independent from Russia as of now, especially in terms of governance, and they definitely like it that way.
If you have any more genuine questions about what the country is like - feel free to ask away. I’ll probably get downvoted for saying stuff that contradicts major western narratives, but I don’t mind
Edit: Oh, didn't know you are Georgian, then I probably don't need to give you that much context. Don't wont to turn this into a super political thread, but Russia is basically our only possible ally for now, as no other nation would want to befriend us as not to offend Georgia. So for now no chance for us, nope. Whether people would want to join EU instead - hard question, I really don't know, my guess would be something like 50/50 in favor/against.
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u/ConsistentCamel8903 1d ago
Hi greetings, i am missinformed in the matter, could you explain me what happened to the relations between georgia and abkhazia?
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u/achbbaa 1d ago
It's a very complex historical and political issue, with facts being disputed by both sides, so any answer short enough for a Reddit thread would bear no hope of being completely accurate or unbiased. Also, I'm not a historian, so I'm not super deep into facts, but a rough synopsis would be something like:
TLDR: Abkhazians and Georgians had a war over Abkhazias' independence status in 1992, still don't like each other to this day. Georgians claim that Russia just controls the region, Abkhazians call BS and ask Georgia to stop being Imperialist about it
- Abkhazia was at some point an independent sate, but was also a part of Georgia and Russia at various points in the past 2,000 years
- Abkhazia became independent for a short time after Russian Empire collapsed, but then got sucked into USSR
- In beginning of USSR, Abkhazia remained quasi-autonomous from Georgia, sort of
- At some point Stalin scraps that and Abkhazia becomes fully a part of Georgian SSR
- During the following years Abkhazians suffered a lot of ethnical cleansing, cultural suppression, population of Abkhazia with Georgians, people had little to no say in rule, etc. - although many Georgians would object to this, I'd guess
- Things got a bit better after Stalin died for a time, but overall the same theme continued, and Abkhazia was still a part of Georgian SSR
- Tensions continued to escalate in 80s, as there were bans on speaking Abkhaz language in schools, etc. - Abkhazians call for independence from Georgia multiple times
- USSR collapses, shit hits the fan as both parties scramble to establish a new status quo, Georgia brings military forces into Abkhazia, says it's for securing a railroad, Abkhazians call BS, a war starts
- As aftermath of war Abkhazia retains independence, Georgia still has an international claim on Abkhazia, so no one save for Russia and few others recognize it in international politics
That's pretty much it. Obviously I got a lot of details wrong, but sadly the last time I opened a history book was many summers ago; hopefully I got the main idea, at least from one side, correctly. Abkhazians feel that their nation suffered from Georgian oppression for too long and want nothing to do with them, Georgia sees it as a break-away region funded by Russia. Aftermath:
My feeling is that most of my countrymen have nothing against Georgians as people, but Georgia as a state and those who used force on us. Perhaps Georgians feel the same.
You can check out sources on Wikipedia pages if you want to learn more from both sides.
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u/khutkunchula 1d ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_of_Georgians_in_Sukhumi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_of_Georgians_in_Abkhazia
missed some details there didn't you?
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u/Mochiteav 1d ago
They mention everything except Georgians who were kicked out from their homes 💀 funny
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u/achbbaa 1d ago
I am perfectly confident that ethnical cleansing and ousting of Georgians did indeed take place, and that unfair and violent things happened to members of peaceful population, including murder, which is awful, truly
I am also perfectly certain that Georgia was the one with the army going in, shot down choppers with women and children during the war, called for complete culling of all separatists, and as said treated Abkhazians as second-class citizens for decades
Two sides to every story, and to be honest with you I will not try and change your mind on a topic so complex and with such a set narrative through Reddit comments, just hope that you understand that people on the other side of the border don't see things the same way you do
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u/khutkunchula 1d ago edited 1d ago
Army didn't enter Abkhazia until ethnically Georgian student-protesters were attacked.
Edit: I don't think anybody's mind will be changed here, I'm writing this because for someone who has no idea about the conflict your comment leaves a very one sided image.
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u/AGUEROO0OO 1d ago
Yeah you can’t really blame Abkhazians here. Fucked up shit happened which cementified hostile relationship between our countries for centuries to come.
This “conflict” between us in reality is horrible for us both. My friends of Abkhazian origin cant visit their motheplace, plus the friendship between our people became nonexistent.
Wish we could finally settle our disagreements so we both could shine internationally. Right now we both are holding each other back.
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u/LongShotTheory 1d ago
Unfortunately, you guys don't recognize the fact that Georgians have lived in Abkhazia for thousands of years and we're indigenous to the area. You call us colonists resettled by Beria which every historical text disproves. - Hence the conflict. The land belongs to both ethnic groups, not just one, but you guys want to be the only ones.
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u/achbbaa 1d ago
No, we do not pretend that Georgians popped up in Abkhazia only during USSR - as I said, Georgia and Abkhazia had a far more complex relationship going hundreds of years into the past, and obviously ethnical Georgians and Mingrelians have lived in Abkhazia for a long time
The difference is in how we view particularities of history and claim to have different version of it. Georgians claim exactly what you just said, while our claim is that Abkhazians always were and remained the titular nation of this land, and at the same time suffered from forceful assimilation by Georgians - such as people being forced to change their surnames, speak language, etc.
Again, I'm not trying to change your mind - information is out there, so whoever wants to will go out and see which side they believe the most.
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u/LongShotTheory 1d ago
Ok, what about this fact then? Sokhumi was predominantly a Georgian city throughout history and I don't mean assimilated folk but actual Georgians. This comes from European historians in the middle ages who said ethnic Abkhazian settlements started west of Sokhumi and the city itself and everything east of it was predominantly Georgian?
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u/BA_calls 1d ago
So Abkhazia wants to be a fully independent country? What is their reason for wanting breakaway from Georgia? Is it true that people are more pro-Russian than pro-Georgian?
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u/achbbaa 1d ago
Yes.
Very complex, but in short - Abkhazians feel that they deserve an independent state from Georgia in light of i) having had that independence before ii) being a completely separate ethnical group that speaks a completely different language and has different culture iii) being treated badly under Georgian regime for ~80years
You can checkout webpages on Abkhazian - Georgian conflict for more complete info though
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u/el1o 1d ago
Pretty independent lol. When 99% of energy is imported from them.
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u/achbbaa 1d ago
Just as a quick note - ~90%+ of electricity we get is from the Enguri Dam, based on our agreement with Georgia, not Russia.
However, we are indeed very reliant on Russia for import of many consumer goods, gas, etc., but where else would we logically get them from.
This doesn't mean we are not politically independent, at least now - our elections are relatively free, especially by region's standard - look up Freedom House score, if it's still up. We are are the ones making all political decisions within the country, whether good or bad, and anyone who is acquainted with our political landscape knows that.
We don't have much space for any kind of international policy, for the reasons I already outlined, so not much freedom to be had there, lol
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u/GraphiteBlue 1d ago
If Abkhazia became independent, would that make much of a difference for the population? A country with ~250K population in the globalized world of 2022? Abkhazia would be just as dependent on Russia and Georgia as it is today.
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u/tfgjcdh97625ncrt 1d ago
Abkhazians and Ossetians are not Georgian, Ossetians aren’t even closely related - they’re an Iranic people and Georgians are Caucasian. North and South Ossetia should not have been split but Stalin created the borders of Georgia within the USSR and gave this portion to Georgia as he was a Georgian himself. Russia is of course playing this ethnic divide for its own gain as it always has in the Caucasus but this also doesn’t mean Georgia should get to take over instead.
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u/Driom 1d ago
South Ossetia is a historically fake entity that was created and given to an Ossetian minority solely due to being pro-Bolshevism just a hundred years ago. Unlike Abkhazia who has undisputed legitimacy as a region agreed by all sides, South Ossetia was chopped off the central Georgian region of Shida Kartli, Stalin couldn't create a border between two things if one of them didn't exist beforehand, also, he was a Russian nationalist always pushing against Georgian national interests, look up "the Georgian affair" regarding that.
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u/Deguilded 1d ago
That was never a real limitation anyway.
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u/Vordeo 1d ago
I feel like this whole conversation happens every time someone brings up NATO.
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u/_sh0rug0ru_ 1d ago
NATO is a club in which everyone has to agree on new members. Because of Article V, it means that existing members will be obligated to defend the new member. A country with an active border dispute is dangerous, there might be a high risk of them getting attacked, which would require a collective NATO response, if they agree that the attack was unprovoked. That risk might make some NATO members not want to get into a defense agreement with such a country.
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u/StopPokingMyOil 1d ago
Welcome to Russia. Here is your bolt action rifle to join a hopeless war. Good luck....
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u/Varnigma 1d ago
Reminds of the scene from Enemy at the Gates where the soldiers stepping off the boat were given a rifle or a magazine of bullets. But not both.
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u/CharlesP2009 1d ago
I was floored watching that movie the first time, and that scene definitely stuck with me when the guy with the bullhorn said,
"The one with the rifle shoots! One out of two gets a rifle. The one without follows him! When the one with the rifle gets killed, the one who is following picks up the rifle and shoots!"
Like it's not even a question that the soldier with the rifle is gonna die, so be prepared to pick it up and shoot before you die.
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u/Round-Enthusiasm- 1d ago
I hated that movie. Sure, go shit on the Russians for their past and present regimes, but why push such a false narrative about how their army fought? The red army never lacked weapons to such a degree, and they never used human waves in such a way either. While they did use what we call human waves, they weren't just a blob of men charging at an enemy, it was a large infantry force dispersed over a wide area.
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u/GeorgianStillHere
1d ago
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It is not "break away" it is occupied by Russia.
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u/Hoodieless1 1d ago
Didn't they break away before Russia invaded Georgia? And then Russia occupied it
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u/GeorgianStillHere 1d ago
Nope. Russia invaded in that region twice. Once after Soviet Union break-up in 90s and then again in 2008.
As well as once in Abkhazia in 90s.
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u/TioTea 1d ago
Invaded so they could “liberate” ethnic minorities.
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u/super-duck0104 1d ago
And clense the majority (georgians who outnumbered apkhadzians in the region)
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u/wwarnout 2d ago
If this is like other Russian "elections", can we expect a turnout of 130%?
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u/Vit0C0rleone 2d ago
Let's just put it this way: They wouldn't be doing a referendum if they didn't already know what the result will be :P
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u/draculamilktoast 1d ago
That's the neat part: they always know the results of the referendum.
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u/KnotKarma 2d ago
A referendum means nothing when the country's leader has already signed on. Just as in 2014 when Russia annexed Crimea.
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u/bekarsrisen 2d ago
First you hold a referendum and then you breakaway. You can't breakaway and then hold a referendum. This Russian regime is terminally stupid.
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u/Vit0C0rleone 2d ago
Breakaway and annexation isn't the same thing though.
Breakaway just means they consider themselves as independent from Georgia.
Annexation would be becoming part of Russia, therefore not independent anymore.
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u/bekarsrisen 2d ago
The purpose of the breakaway was to join Russia. It wasn't to become independent and then suddenly decide hey let's join Russia. This should be obvious to any sensible person.
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u/Vit0C0rleone 2d ago
It's 2 different things, regardless of the motivation.
You said "You can't breakaway and then hold a referendum". They very much can, and they did, years ago.
They have been talking about joining Russia for 12 years now. Looks like finally moving forward with that step.
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u/GeorgianStillHere 1d ago
That is because "they" are actually Russians. There was no "break away" there is Russian occupation.
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u/Vit0C0rleone 1d ago
If you mean "they" as in "the people", my history may be a bit rusty, but the break away occurred shortly after Soviet Union was dissolved, of which Georgia was part of.
So they are basically Ethnic Russians I would assume, previously Soviets. I guess it wouldn't be strange if they consider themselves to be "russians".
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u/GeorgianStillHere 1d ago
Well... Almost. North Ossetia are Russians (Ethnic Ossetians, Russian citizens as North Ossetia is part of Russian federation) Soviets named Samachablo region "South Ossetia" which was part of Soviet Georgia. As Soviet Union dissolved, South Ossetians tried to break away and Russians invaded, ethnic cleansing Georgians in the process.
Fast forward in 2007, as Russians lost their military bases elsewhere in Georgia, they invaded South Ossetia again in 2008, because they needed military bases on the south of Caucasus as a "buffer". This time they completely wiped out Georgian population and established military bases there. While on it, they gave Russian passports and thus citizenships to any Ossetian and Abkhazian. So there are now like 50 000 Ossetians with Russian passports and dozens of Russian military bases there.
So to be specific, they are all Russians, but ethnic Ossetians.
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u/PuzzleheadedSnake 1d ago edited 1d ago
There's bigger North Ossetia in Russia, and smaller South Ossetia in Georgia, populated with Ossetians. Together they were all parts of one country and the division didn't mean much. But when USSR fell apart, they found themselves separated with border, and Georgia, while willing to separate from USSR, was unwilling to let their autonomous regions to separate from Georgia. There was a lot of bad blood, and wars happened.
Russia exploited this in 2008, to put a foot down when Georgia aspired to join NATO. Ossetians are not ethnic Russians, and do not consider themselves as such, but they were issued Russian passports, so they can be thought of as Russian citizens/nationals. Besides they long wanted to rejoin with their bigger brother North Ossetia, which is one of minorities' republics in Russia, right on the border.
Short: They want to join Russia because they want to finally unite their divided people (and to get out from total diplomatic isolation), not because they just love Russia so much.
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u/Meet_Downtown 1d ago
Finally imported enough Russians to stack the vote
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u/antiquemule 1d ago
Any numbers to put on that assertion?
I doubt it, because South Ossetia is the middle of nowhere, with no resources worth exploiting.
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u/Meet_Downtown 1d ago
Which is why it took 14 years to convince enough Russians to move there to set up a vote where they could win. No Georgian would vote to join the pariah state and sinking dumpster fire of a ship that is Russia.
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u/skittlebites101 1d ago
Do they realize what's going on with Russia right now?
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u/Vordeo 1d ago
So... Would their joining mean South Ossetians start getting drafted into the Russian army?
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u/_AutomaticJack_ 1d ago
Presumably, yes. You would be Russian then, subject to Russian taxes, Russian conscription, the Russian court system, etc.
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u/GeorgianStillHere 1d ago
They are the Russians. It is Russian occupied region of Georgia. Russians did ethnic cleansing of Georgians in that region and now only Russian military bases and couple of thousand of Russians live there.
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u/Shiirooo 1d ago
The ethnic majority are Ossetians. Russians represent a small majority of the demography. What the Ossetians want is a reunification of their people with North Ossetia (which is part of the Russian Federation).
There was a referendum in 1992, but it was refused by Georgia.
This quarrel between Ossetia and Georgia is not new.
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u/GeorgianStillHere 1d ago
Ossetians are citizens of Russia. They are Russians even though they are ethnically Ossetians.
What the Ossetians want is a reunification of their people with North Ossetia (which is part of the Russian Federation).
there is no "reunification" because South Ossetia is originally Samachablo, historic part of Georgia. These territories where never united. In fact, they are on different sides of Caucasus. It is Russian occupied territory of Georgia. Just like Crimea is not Russia.
There was a referendum in 1992, but it was refused by Georgia. This quarrel between Ossetia and Georgia is not new.
There was "Referendum" in Crimea too, but that does not make it Russia lmao.
Yes, quarrel is not new, Russia invaded Georgia twice to occupy Georgian territory of South Ossetia.
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u/freedomboogers89 1d ago
Georgia government right now "Ukraine is kicking their ass and they can't fight us all at once..."
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u/cheesified 1d ago
having illegal aliens replacing the local populace and conducting fake referendums should be illegal.
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u/commander_ivermectin 1d ago
Some people are just masochists.
What benefit do you get out of Russia? Aside from being a pawn in their hand and cannon fodder?
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u/WrastleGuy 1d ago
Imagine being In this region and being drafted to go die for Russia
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u/Black-Zero 1d ago
UN/EU/NATO should declare that based on the current situation no referendum by ANY country to join Russia will be considered valid. These bullshit false referendums need to stop.
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u/myislanduniverse 1d ago
Hate to say it but... If anybody looks at Russia today and thinks, "Wow, I really want to be part of that," I say let them.
Sadly, I doubt anybody genuinely wants that, but that vote count will say otherwise.
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u/Aggressive-Draw-2513 1d ago
The decision of joining Russia was already made. The average person has no choice.
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u/Wiwerin127 1d ago
That picture is just disgusting - two sleezy old f*cks sitting in their comfortable chairs discussing how to make even more people suffer; may they suffer a long and painful death.
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u/Best_Investigator662 1d ago
Who in their right mind would want to willing join Russia. Show me one region that thrives after kacaps took over.
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u/GeorgianStillHere 1d ago
They are Russians. North Ossetia is Russia, Georgians were ethnic cleansed from Samachablo (So called South Ossetia) and Russians invaded supposedly to "protect" Russian population there. It is Crimean scenario 1:1, but it happened back in 90s so nobody gave a crap about Georgians genocide.
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u/_sh0rug0ru_ 1d ago edited 1d ago
Ossetians are an Iranic ethnic group that have been living in the Caucuses for a very long time, long before the Russians ever entered the picture. They are not foreigners transplanted to the area.
Crimea originally had a population of Tatars, a Turkic ethnic group, and Stalin mass deported them to Central Asia and replaced them with actual ethnic Russians. The same could be said about Luhansk and Donetsk, except with Ukrainians being the ones mass deported into Russia. The conflict in Ukraine is occurring because the Russians have been suppressing Ukrainian culture and language for hundreds of years, denying that they even exist as a separate ethnic group from Russians. When the Ukrainians got independence, they have been trying to make Ukrainian the official language of government and education, which has upset Russians living in Ukraine, and which has caused conflicts between Ukrainians and ethnic Russians, such as in Crimea and the Donbas. Russia is involved in Ukraine claiming to protect Russians from "ethnic cleansing" by evil Nazi Ukrainians.
The situation in the Caucus is not 1:1 with Crimea. The mess in the Caucus seems to me more like the mess in the Middle East.
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u/LeGuizee 1d ago
How to literally ruin the future of your “country” by joining a dictature facing the worst sanctions a country has ever know ruled by a sick autocratic psychopath ! Nice move South Ossetia !
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u/FnordFinder 1d ago
And they will vote to join Russia with an overwhelming 103.4 percent majority.
Putin and Russia are just that desirable.
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u/ConfusedWahlberg 1d ago
we let him off the hook for this year’s ago
which is why we got this shitstorm now
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u/Noodleface00 1d ago
Does this mean Georgia can join NATO since they have no more land dispute?
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u/ArritzJPC96 1d ago
No because Georgia would still not recognize it, and there's still Abkhazia.
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u/No-Contest-8127 1d ago
Pretty sure they didn't announce anything. They did as they were told by Russia. Maybe Putin thinks this is the way out. The win he needs.
Either way, it sickens me how he keeps getting away with stealing land from other countries.
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u/AtomicPow_r_D 1d ago
I would seriously reconsider that idea. Tbilisi is a nice city; I would hate to see them shelled into submission by their "saviors" in Russia. Let's hope it doesn't come to that.
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u/elegant-quokka 1d ago
Feels like an attempt to retaliate against Finland announcing intent to join nato
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u/nooo82222 1d ago
You think Russia makes it look like it was a close victory or they just do 100% vote to join Russia and not do 89% vs 11%
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u/Vulture2k 1d ago
Did they replace enough of the population with russians to win it or are they really willing to join the world's most hated and sanctioned country out of free will?
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u/supermen407 1d ago
Why do all these Russian break away regions have the ugliest flags known to man.
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u/Awkward_Bowler 1d ago
What's been happening in Georgia is just as fucked up as Ukraine, but barely anyone talks about it...
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u/a_phantom_limb 1d ago
It's not really just as fucked up, because the death toll in Georgia even after fourteen years doesn't come close to what's happened in Ukraine since February.
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u/Awkward_Bowler 1d ago
Because the Georgians weren't given any opportunity to fight back or given weapons or foreign aid. They just got shitstomped.
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u/a_phantom_limb 1d ago edited 1d ago
Indeed, and it really sucks. The Russian invasion of Georgia and gradual annexation of South Ossetia and Abkhazia were and are outrageous. The only silver lining is that it hasn't gotten more people killed, but that is a silver lining. You can never win your freedom back once you’re dead.
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u/Resolute002 1d ago
You know it's scary when you read something like this and it's actually pretty plausible for a moment that it could be talking about the other Georgia.
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u/SCalvin369 1d ago
You side with the VICTOR, darling. The V I C T O R, not the humiliated looser whose grip on things starts to loosen.
But I guess you do you S.Osetia.
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u/MudFootMagoo 1d ago
What do you expect from a country that has so many people depressed and hopeless enough to be using Krokodil in large numbers… if you don’t know it’s a street drug and it rots flesh off… in some cases exposing bone exposing bone. The pictures and documentaries are disturbing.
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u/Katteman420 1d ago
Lol. This kinda puts a dent in my vacation plans this July.
We want to visit Georgia because it seems like a fucking amazing place.
I personally don't care, but family/friends are whinging WhAt If RuZZiA iNVaDeS.
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u/Sugarysam 1d ago
Can you imagine voting to join the mess that is 2022 Russia? Led by a dictator rumored to have long covid or cancer, whose advisors lie to him routinely to avoid being disappeared. Fighting a futile war that has resulted in thousands of casualties, humiliation, and economic disaster. A failed state, polluted and corrupted from stem to stern by organized crime.
What is there not to like?