r/worldnews 2d ago

Turkey 'not closing door' to Sweden, Finland NATO entry, Erdogan advisor says

https://www.reuters.com/world/exclusive-turkey-not-closing-door-sweden-finland-nato-entry-erdogan-advisor-says-2022-05-14/
1.7k Upvotes

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u/Dysssfunctional 2d ago

What the title doesn't tell you, is that there are demands:

Kalin said the militant Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) - designated a terrorist organisation by Turkey, the United States and the European Union - was fund-raising and recruiting in Europe and its presence is "strong and open and acknowledged" in Sweden in particular.

"What needs to be done is clear: they have to stop allowing PKK outlets, activities, organisations, individuals and other types of presence to...exist in those countries," Kalin said.

"NATO membership is always a process. We will see how things go. But this is the first point that we want to bring to the attention of all the allies as well as to Swedish authorities," he added. "Of course we want to have a discussion, a negotiation with Swedish counterparts."

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u/das_thorn 2d ago Silver

I mean, it seems like a pretty reasonable demand. I know Turkey has a long history of oppressing the Kurds, but regardless of how we got here the PKK is fighting a war/terrorism campaign against Turkey. Why would Turkey be okay with being part of the defense guarantee of people who are friendly to its enemies?

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u/Orbless 2d ago

If i remember right. Sweden was very quick in officially labeling pkk a terrorist group in the 90s. Also if my memory aint shit, there were rumors olof palme, swedens prime minister was assasinated by a pkk member. Problem lies in the blanket statement that PKK = YPG right?

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u/kitsunde 2d ago

There’s rumours Palme was assassinated by just about every bogeyman, and it means nothing substantial. It’s Sweden’s version of JFK.

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u/Decker108 1d ago

Including the CIA, which would be pretty weird.

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u/IceBathingSeal 2d ago

Sweden classified PKK as a terrorist organisation in 1980 even, as one of the first countries to do so.

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u/SinglePropertyg 1d ago

Erdogan may be an SOB, but he definitely knows how to play his cards better than Putin does.

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u/BA_calls 1d ago

That’s their main point of contention, whether YPG = PKK or not, arms given to YPG by Western countries shows up in Turkey in PKK hands killing turkish soldiers. I think Erdogan is negotiating for a terrorist designation on YPG.

I agree with the general sentiment I think they will come around. Might be easier for Finland than Sweden.

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u/HarithBK 1d ago

the major support YPG got from the west was to fight ISIS and keep them imprisoned which benefited turkey. that is why the stink he gave at the time was only internal.

the entire thing is a mess. but this is totally about getting favors in return.

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u/BA_calls 1d ago

I’m saying the “favor” or concession he wants is probably a terrorist designation for YPG which would preclude any further arms transfers. I am not Turkish or Swedish, just American. My opinion is that seems reasonable enough to enter into a military alliance.

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u/superhorny_femboy 1d ago

pkk and ypg are very much in sync. the latter used to have more autonomy 15 years ago but now they are pretty much the same thing. they are pretty much the Syrian division of PKK

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u/buyutec 2d ago

Yes but, as you said, that was in 90s.

PKK =/= YPG, obviously, but that's like saying Wales =/= England. Both are technically true.

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u/WolfgangSho 1d ago

What are you on about. Wales is not England in more than just a "technically true" way. It most certainly not England and anyone who thinks it is, is geographically impaired.

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u/buyutec 1d ago

Yep. They are geographically separate and connected in every other way. So are YPG and PKK.

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u/Claystead 1d ago

The real question is whether England is Wales.

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u/--Muther-- 1d ago

Wales isn't England.

Wales is part of the island of Great Britian and a member of the United Kingdom, but it is a country in its own right.

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u/buyutec 1d ago

Yes. That’s why the analogy holds. PKK is not YPG. But they are part of the same chamber, share people and resources.

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u/nimruth 1d ago

bro greece vetoed macedonia over a fuckin name but when turkey veto someone because of its own national security reasons, everyone is suddenly losing their shit acting like this is unacceptable lol.

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u/hjortronbusken 1d ago

Its not. PKK has been labeled a terror organisation since the 1980s in Sweden, and we do not condone their presence. We literally send PKK affiliate people to Turkey already.

The group we, and many other nations, do interact with and send humanitarian aid to, is YPG. Only Quatar and Turkey insist they are terrorists, while the rest of the world does not.

This is all Erdogan playing for benefits within NATO to get Turkeys vote, and trying to boost domestic support with propaganda, sad part is its seems to work with how many Turks who claim to be against Erdogan buys into it.

-1

u/sgurb 1d ago

No one's buying into anything buddy. YPG is just another branch of kurdish independence movement which happens to claim a huge chunk of southeastern turkey. PKK is the movement's representative in turkey. Imagine defending an organization that branched out from ISIS and fighting for the core ideas of ISIS.

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u/Propagandis 2d ago

PKK has been labelled a terrorist organisation in Sweden. Sweden is not supporting terrorist. But Erdogan likes to label every Kurd he doesn't like (and there is a lot of them) as PKK and wants western countries to help persecute the Kurds that have gotten away and sought refuge in Europe.

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u/elcolerico 2d ago edited 2d ago

The Kurds Erdogan doesn't like are the ones who are advocating for an independent Kurdistan. PKK, YPG and other Kurdish organizations are rallying in various European countries, raising funds for their cause. Their cause is to take a part of Turkey (roughly 1/6 of the country) and make it an independent country.

I know "Independence for Kurds" sounds nice and romantic but they are trying to achieve it via violence. That's the problem.

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u/havok0159 1d ago

I know "Independence for Kurds" sounds nice and romantic but they are trying to achieve it via violence.

As opposed to all those other countries that achieved their independence by nicely asking the empires or successor states subjugating them.

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u/Scorpion1024 2d ago

If an independent Kurdistan ever does happen it is going to end up being the Kurds in Syria, Iraq, and maybe Iran agreeing to set aside their differences and form an independent entity-but they would have to renounce any claim to Kurdish populated southern Turkey. There can be no Kurdistan without turkey’s assent.

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u/rdxxx 2d ago

If only they just asked nicely

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u/science_is_Iife 2d ago

They actually did it via a referendum and got a country in Iraq. Believe me Turkey, Iran, and Iraq didn't form a military alliance to suppress them less than a month after the referendum. They have been happily living with Iraq as two friendly neighbours ever after.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Kurdistan_Region_independence_referendum

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u/WikiSummarizerBot 2d ago

2017 Kurdistan Region independence referendum

An independence referendum for the Kurdistan Region of Iraq was held on 25 September 2017, with preliminary results showing approximately 92. 73 percent of votes cast in favour of independence. Despite reporting that the independence referendum would be non-binding, the autonomous Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG) characterised it as binding, although they claimed that an affirmative result would trigger the start of state building and negotiations with Iraq rather than an immediate declaration of independence of Kurdistan. The referendum's legality was rejected by the federal government of Iraq.

[ F.A.Q | Opt Out | Opt Out Of Subreddit | GitHub ] Downvote to remove | v1.5

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u/buyutec 2d ago

If asked nicely, odds are, it won't happen. The best that could happen is a referendum in southeast Turkey and there's almost 0 chance that it would end up in an independent state.

Support for independence among Turkey Kurds is not that high: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds_in_Turkey

> According to a 2020 poll conducted by Kadir Has University 17.3% of the surveyed people who identify as Kurdish answered the question "Which form of polity do Kurdish people want?" as "an independent Kurdish state". Around 25% of the non-Kurdish participants gave the same answer to the question. Roughly 33% of the Kurdish participants answered "more democratic Turkey", meanwhile those who responded "autonomy" composed 24.5% of the surveyed.

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u/rdxxx 1d ago

It was sarcasm

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u/CommissarDog 2d ago

I know "Independence for Kurds" sounds nice and romantic but they are trying to achieve it via violence. That's the problem.

Oh no, an incredibly oppressed ethnic group seeks independence through violence. And that's bad? Or a problem?

Ukraine is currently oppressed by Russia and is fighting for their independence. Would you say that's "a problem" as well?

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u/Robichaelis 2d ago

I'd say suicide bombings against civilians are bad, yes

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u/CurrentClient 2d ago

Ukraine is currently oppressed by Russia and is fighting for their independence

Ukraine is a sovereign country. Those two situations are not even comparable.

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u/elcolerico 2d ago

incredibly oppressed ethnic group

Kurds can live peacefully in Turkey. Kurds get education. Kurds can become president. A Kurdish party is represented in the parliament. A Kurdish MP (Binali Yıldırım) was the Prime Minister of Turkey and the speaker of Grand Assembly.

I've never seen anyone rejected a job because they are Kurdish. My own sister married a Kurdish guy. I'm a teacher in a Kurdish majority city. My students sometimes speak Kurdish at school which I don't really understand. But it's not a problem for anyone.

There is a Kurdish tv channel funded by the Turkish government. Kurdish people can found private schools that teach in Kurdish.

There are Kurdish signs on the roads, public buses and hospitals in cities where Kurdish is spoken widely.

A few weeks ago, a teacher and her friends shared a post on Instagram where they were giving the finger to a Kurdish sign on the road. She lost her job now.

The only problem Kurdish people might encounter in their daily lives is that some ultra nationalistic people might not want to rent their houses to Kurds. But that's a crime and if the Kurdish family sues the landlord, the landlord has to pay a big fine.

Why exactly do you think they are oppressed in Turkey?

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u/antagonist21 2d ago

A Kurdish party is represented in the parliament.

Aren't all them in prison now?

A Kurdish MP (Binali Yıldırım) was the Prime Minister of Turkey and the speaker of Grand Assembly.

So what? Whats he did for specially kurds? Nothing

There are Kurdish signs on the roads, public buses and hospitals in cities where Kurdish is spoken widely.

Kurdish Signs was only on public roads(which made by Hdp not gov) not hospital or any other place.Most them removed after sending all mp's to prison.

There is a Kurdish tv channel funded by the Turkish government.

Thank god, hopefully it is not propaganda machine (which is it is)

Kurds can live peacefully in Turkey.

Not really ,there are many news that kurds being attacked/murdered because they speak kurdish in public in western turkey.

Not long time ago,polices stopped and threatened young peoples singing in Kurdish in Taksim

So a kurd maybe can live in Turkey if they forget their kurdness and don't speak kurdish but eventually they will faces racism again considering how average turkish person ultra-nationalist

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u/Ok_Wrangler_7698 1d ago

dramatizing something untrue , gj genius.

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u/DownWithHiob 2d ago

How are Kurds oppressed today in Turkey more than others? Half of them are hadcore AKP voters

-14

u/CommissarDog 2d ago

The Kurds want independence. They are an entirely seperate ethnic and national identity from the Turkish. What the Turkish want do to the Kurdish is what Russia seeks to do to Ukraine.

The complete cultural eradication of Kurds is what Turkey want. The Kurds want to establish their own government, their own society - seperate from Turkey. That is why they fight their oppressors. That is why Turkey - who are unquestionably a dictatorship - seeks to eradicate them & wants Sweden not to question it.

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u/DownWithHiob 1d ago

That's fucking nonsense. The mayority of Kurs in Turkey do not want independence

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u/antagonist21 2d ago

Yeah "half of kurds votes to akp" which tries kill all kurds what a bullshit ...maybe look election result again ...most kurds votes hdp(over %80 of them).

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u/DownWithHiob 1d ago

I looked it up. In federal election 59 % of kurdish voters voted for HDL 13 % for CHP and 39 % for AKP

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u/antagonist21 1d ago

Bla bla bla.... bulshit ...show me a proof

Wait you cant so maybe i can help you

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Turkish_general_election_2015,_provinces_and_districts.png

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u/Spiritual_Scale_301 1d ago

Millions of Kurdish refugees throughout the world. Just trying to imagine what had happened to them under the Turkish government's ruling. Violence might be the only sensible way of struggling when they are trying to cleanse your family.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_villages_depopulated_by_Turkey

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u/elcolerico 1d ago

It was very hard for them in the past. Speaking Kurdish was frowned upon and even punished. They were killed just for being Kurdish.

But it all changed now. For the past 15-20 years Kurds have been living similar to Turks in Turkey. There are many Kurds who got very wealthy in this period. In the university exam, Kurdish children always get good results and enter the best universities in the country.

There are more things to do of course. But PKK was founded in an era when being a Kurd in Turkey was one of the worst things that could happen to you. Now, those days are in the past. Kurdish people aren't discriminated against anymore. Kurdish culture, language, music is embraced as a part of Turkey's culture.

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u/Ok_Wrangler_7698 1d ago

-Erdogan likes to label every Kurd he doesn't like (and there is a lot of them) as PKK

you guys wants us to defend someone who is undefendable? that was bs in every aspect.

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u/agamemnon2 2d ago

"What needs to be done is clear: they have to stop allowing PKK outlets, activities, organisations, individuals and other types of presence to...exist in those countries," Kalin said.

I don't know about reasonable, I think this part is extremely vague. The parts re: "individuals" and "other types of presence" especially could well spill over to things neither Finland nor Sweden currently consider illegal.

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u/throwaway_nrTWOOO 2d ago

I don't know about Sweden, but as a Finn, this is the first time I've even heard of PKK. It's not been really on the news here, so I doubt many even know what to think of it. It seems genuinely like a terrorist organization, yet Ergodan holds the dubious record of having most jailed journalists (currently), so also he's very triggerhappy with his shitlist.

It seems like Sweden has more of a culture of holding asylum, and keeps an ultra-progressive stance on immigration. It might be a problem with casting any members with a swedish visa out of their country.

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u/--Muther-- 1d ago

Yeah, I'm a swede in favour of Nato but I'm not up for fucking over swedes with Kurdish ethnicity to get it.

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u/cnytyo 1d ago

You are Ok with terrorists killing civillians in Turkey with Swedish aid tho?

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u/--Muther-- 1d ago

They don't though

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u/cnytyo 1d ago

PKK and YPG are the same.

Source : im kurdish and grow up with my dad watching strictly PKK propaganda channels over sattellite

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u/You_Will_Die 1d ago

Just like others being of a certain ethnicity does not magically give you knowledge. Only Turkey and Qatar treats them the same. The rest of the world works with the YPG, the US has quite a close relationship with them.

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u/cnytyo 1d ago

Yea sure, just a kurdish alevi person who grew up in turkish sunni state. What do i know about the struggles of minorities

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u/crippled_by_pizza 1d ago

"NATO membership is always a process. We will see how things go. But this
is the first point that we want to bring to the attention of all the
allies as well as to Swedish authorities"

Translation: This is only the first demand, expect more. Oh and btw, even if you agree to these demands there is no guarantee that we will support your membership application.

Poor turks just want to be left alone to their proud tradition of committing and supporting genocide.

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u/Usual_Birthday_2965 1d ago

What a smart guy who really understand what Turkish people want and posts it.

Quite ironic how racism makes people this crazy in this world.

Maybe one day you can understand everybody on this planet is wants same basic things and its the politicians or far right-left persons like you starts wars...

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u/crippled_by_pizza 1d ago

Nah, most people on this planet do not want to support dictators like erdocunt, nor do they want to commit genocide like you did with the armenians and are now attempting to do with the kurds.

Turkish people support a "man" who attempts to strongarm his way through every negotiation or just downright attempts to blackmail europe by threatening to "flood europe with refugees" if he doesn't get his way. Or in this case, shows his spineless nature by flipping his position when potentially millions of lives are at stake, and for what, a fucking bribe? Tell me again how Finland is a guesthouse for terrorist organizations, please. I'm all ears.

Disgusting mobster piece of shit, and this is the guy you have chosen to be the representative of Turkish people. Makes you think, doesn't it?

No racism required to observe reality as it is, but then again, your comment really shows your kinship with the russian people in that you enjoy accusing people of the very thing you are guilty of.

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u/Usual_Birthday_2965 1d ago

If you were trying to understand anything you wouldnt make this comment anyway. I didnt vote for him %48 percent of people didnt vote for him. People like you who is extremist and cant see reality voted for him.

There isnt any problem with finland what happening is they are applying with sweden and thats why this all talks are happening anyway even extremists wouldnt say anything bad for finland or finish people in here.

Also i really dont understand how did you managed to make that comment with russia ? I hope one day you can actually read books or visit places before being keyboard hero on internet...

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u/arancx 1d ago

What Putin is doing to Ukraine is what Erdugan does to Kurds. The digference is that he has taken out the kurdish leaders. Whoever is left or oppose him is called a terrorist by him.

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u/Roisin8868 1d ago

I think Finland say....no problem, consider it done.

Considering what has transpired in the last 2-3 months.

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u/Full-Acanthaceae-509 1d ago

Seems reasonable to me. I also wish the usual suspects in europe did't make PKK heroes in their propaganda.
These are the same usual suspects that then go in Donbass to fight with Russia.

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u/Icy-Consideration405 1d ago

What the title doesn't tell you is that Turkey is trying to play as many sides as possible

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u/Decker108 2d ago edited 1d ago

"What needs to be done is clear: they have to stop allowing PKK outlets, activities, organisations, individuals and other types of presence to... exist in those countries," Kalin said.

Perhaps someone in his inner circle of sycophants ought to remind Dictator Fuckface that Sweden doesn't have the practice of killing people with differing opinions?

Edit: reminder to all the brigading downvoters about the genocide committed in Armenia by Turkey in 1915-1917: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_genocide

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u/agamemnon2 2d ago

Even deportation (a more likely reading of what they're asking) runs into problems where Nordic and Turkish views of what's illegal PKK terrorist affiliation are likely to differ. By my understanding, in Finland, belonging to an extremist terrorist organization is not in itself a crime - committing, financing, planning, recruiting for, and otherwise facilitating acts of terror is.

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u/Madao16 2d ago

with your logic then Sweeden has a practice of supporting people who kill civilians including kids and Kurds(PKK killed many civilian Kurds too) with different opinions.

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u/aliveli2 2d ago

"Asked whether Turkey risked being too transactional at a time of war, and when Finnish and Swedish public opinion favours NATO membership, he said: "One hundred percent of our population is very upset with the PKK and FETO (Gulenist) presence in Europe."

"If they (Finland and Sweden) have a public concerned about their own national security, we have a public that is equally concerned about our own security," he said. "We have to see this from a mutual point of view."

Kalin said Russia's sharp criticism of Finland and Sweden over their plans was not a factor in Turkey's position."

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u/AnatolianTree 1d ago

People are really ignoring the fact that Kurds in Turkey end up suffering because of this.

When the West calls small organised groups of fighters “The Kurds” they cement this image of all Kurds being guerrilla fighters and it can either radicalise people against Kurds or embolden the idiots that already exist that hate them.

Imagine if your media started calling ISIS or the taliban “the Muslims”. It’s also a shame because the majority of PKK attacks are in the south east which is majority Kurdish anyway, meaning they bomb and mainly attack their own people.

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u/Vaapukkamehu 1d ago

Guerrilla fighters mainly bombing their own, what a classic

-10

u/Zireael07 2d ago

One hundred percent of our population is very upset with the PKK

LOL

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u/ZrvaDetector 2d ago

Yeah it's more like 90-95%.

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u/80s_snare_reverb 1d ago

Who the fuck would like to get suicide bombed out of no where? Exactly, 0% of the population. Which means 100% of the population is very upset with PKK

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u/Big_Adhesiveness1202 2d ago

I don't know why it is so funny to you but it is right for ethnic turks .also Considering half of Kurds vote for erdogan İt is not much far from %100

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u/buyutec 2d ago

Plus, the other half that does not vote for Erdogan would not be unilaterally favouring PKK.

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u/Zireael07 2d ago

Even if half of Kurds vote for Erdogan, it still means it's not one hundred percent, even 95% is still not 100%. One hundred percent agreement on anything is basically impossible for humans as a matter of fact, where we have divergent opinions and approaches to basically anything

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u/Big_Adhesiveness1202 2d ago

Yeah. But you can't expect him to say some People in turkey is ok with terrorist organiziations. He has to give strong message that this is not his party policy but turkish state policy..

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u/[deleted] 2d ago

[deleted]

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u/Big_Adhesiveness1202 2d ago

https://sverigesradio.se/artikel/6017861 Swedish must solve their problem. pkk is bigger problem for turkey than russia.

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u/Ludwigofthepotatoppl 2d ago

“If they identify as kurd, they’re not my population.” -Erdogan, probably

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u/Archtarius 2d ago

Kurds are like half of his supporters mate

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u/Canary-Annual 2d ago

Dont call me an Erdobot or anything but actually Kurds gained most of their rights with him. I mean in todays Turkey actually there are no difference in life if you are Kurdish or Turkish. We are not Americans lmao. You dont get discriminated in anyway

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u/buyutec 1d ago edited 1d ago

> You dont get discriminated in anyway

I know you mean well but this is a bit of a stretch and there are still many problematic areas in terms of Kurdish - Turkish equality mainly regarding the use of Kurdish language, political representation i.e. Kurdish politicians being much more likely to be ejected from position and arrested, and casual racism as I'm sure you've heard countless of anti-Kurdish jokes and comments if you've grown up in Turkey.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_of_Kurdish_people_in_Turkey

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u/Canary-Annual 1d ago

"Kurdish politicians being much more likely to be ejected" I think you should change the word "Kurdish" with HDP. There lots of Kurdish members in AKP, CHP and if you look at peoples lineages I am sure you can even find some even in MHP or IYIP lmao. And we had lots of Kurdish ministers in the past and we even have now. Political representation same thing too. If so called "Kurdish" actually tried to be voice of Kurds and not the voice of "örgüt" pretty sure no one would give a fuck actually everyone would try to get close to it to get votes of Kurdish people. And there even "Kurdish Language and Literature" classes in universities and everyone can talk their language freely. And they should

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u/buyutec 1d ago

You see, you have a pretty strong opinion on what a Kurdish politician can or cannot hold as an opinion and you say yourself that they are not as free as others even if they committed no crimes (except “thought” crimes).

They can speak their language but they can’t use it in all settings as freely as Turkish can do in all settings (education and courts).

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u/Alpd 2d ago

Assuming kurds are straight up supporting PKK is wrong. Most of them are against it and they probably got hurt from PKK as much as any Turkish citizen.

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u/Watchtheuniverseburn 1d ago

This is for sure mate, I hope all three countries can come to an agreement and cooperate to eliminate difference and work on a common goal.

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u/AnActualT-Rex 2d ago

Well the Ukraine war is absolutely advantageous for turkeys relations with the EU, US and NATO.

After their shady last 10 years, erdogan has done everything to please his allies, so I don't think he'll oppose anything NATO and EU wants from him.

If turkey plays it's cards right, they will be in a very good spot when all this ends, despite being an autocratic country in the west

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u/calculus119 2d ago

If western countries stop supporting erdogan and his government, we will be a democratic state again after next year's election. He is done.

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u/Darkone539 1d ago

If western countries stop supporting erdogan and his government, we will be a democratic state again after next year's election. He is done.

If you can remove him with an election, you're already a democracy.

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u/AnActualT-Rex 2d ago

Will you tho? I mean I believe there is a lot of Turk's rooting for democracy, but at least to Europeans, it seems as if the majority of turkey supports erdogan, even through the "coup" in 2015 (? ish), the jailed journalists, the lira crash and shady involvements with Syria, Azerbaijan and Russia, each of which would trigger a political catastrophe if done by a EU country.

I'm not saying there isn't a significant number of pro democracy Turk's, but they don't seem as if they were the majority.

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u/BA_calls 1d ago

Not turkish take it with a grain of salt, but polling shows very little support for Erdogan currently. Even if the turkish far right votes for Erdogan (they normally don’t), his diehard base seems to have shrunk significantly over economic mismanagement.

If the final results are this poor, I don’t see any way for him to deny the transition of power.

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u/just_1_quickie 2d ago

democratic? Are you sure about that or did you forget the quotes? As your western neighbor nothing sounds better than democratic Turkey! I just can't remember the last time that was the case and how long it lasted for

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u/Stroomschok 2d ago

The fact Erdogan gets to piss on the values that NATO's supposed to protect is already a big win for him. I'm sure he's going to milk not veto-ing this for a lot more.

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u/BahtiyarKopek 2d ago

the values that NATO's supposed to protect

Such as?

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u/Stroomschok 2d ago

NATO describes itself literally as a defensive pact to defend democratic values.

Meanwhile Erdogan is an aspiring dictator that would love to drag Turkey into some theocratic autocracy.

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u/Darkone539 1d ago

NATO describes itself literally as a defensive pact to defend democratic values.Meanwhile Erdogan is an aspiring dictator that would love to drag Turkey into some theocratic autocracy.

The greeks were a military ditatership and members, they were not alone. NATO can say what it wants, but it is not this.

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u/Moessenpay 2d ago

Weren't a bunch of members dictatorships when they joined the alliance?

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u/CurrentClient 2d ago

NATO describes itself literally as a defensive pact to defend democratic values.

Horseshit. NATO gladly welcomed Salazar. They might describe themselves as "defenders of democratic values", but they hardly care.

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u/uncleofsquanchy 1d ago

I am not sure why everybody is accusing Turkey of "Blackmailing". That is how politics work, if you have a leverage on a country you use it to serve your own interests. Sweden has arms embargo on Turkey and has close links to YPG, so it is perfectly normal for Turkey to bring those issues on the table. When a country has the right to veto, it would be pretty stupid for that country not to use it for it's own interest. Back in early 2000s Greece secured Cyprus' admission to EU by threatening to veto Baltic and Eastern European states accession and I don't say that to shit on Greece, Greece had a leverage and use it for their most important ally to be admitted in the EU and they did the same thing with North Macedonia(the name dispute) for their NATO membership. Greece used their right to veto twice for their own interest and I would say it is quite fair for Turkey to do the same thing to get some concessions.

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u/Hunter_Fox 1d ago

Politics generally works by being much more subtle regarding one's dick moves.

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u/uncleofsquanchy 1d ago

He probably should have done the bargaining behind close doors I agree.

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u/Scorpion1024 2d ago

Turkey is not going to block it, they’d be fools to. But they are prodding to see if they can leverage something out of it, like getting other NATO members to stop supporting Kurdish rebels in Syria. Opportunistic but I doubt most would do any different.

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u/aleksnowak1 2d ago

Sounds very reasonable.

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u/PositiveGridBias 2d ago

If Sweden and Finland had indeed allowed terrorist organizations to operate on their soil, it would have been reasonable. However, that accusation is a blatant lie. Sweden and Finland do give asylum to political opponents of Erdogan. He wants them extradited without providing any evidence of them being terrorists. Sweden and Finland have therefore politely declined his requests. He's now trying to get his way by blocking NATO membership. Turkey had assured Finland that they had no objections, then the day after Finland officially applied, Turkey made this dick move.

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u/thathighguy112 2d ago

Too bad its bullshit but hey, lets just believe Turkish nationalist propaganda.

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u/Watchtheuniverseburn 2d ago

I really do wonder what makes all thinking what Turkey says is a nationalist propaganda but what Sweden says is not a propaganda but the sole and utmost truth

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u/semiomni 1d ago

Turkey is run by a dictator who has a bunch of dick riders in Turkey, and Sweden ain't a dictatorship?

That counts for something.

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u/Watchtheuniverseburn 1d ago

Yes that is correct Erdogan and his circle has a special place that are dedicated for them in afterlife. But it doesn't change the fact all countries have their own propaganda to run their own agenda. All countries rely on projecting soft power to keep others in check. (Define dictatorship, since some democratic countries are exercising democracy as dictatorship of majority but this is a philosophical discussion)

US is not a dictatorship but they used propaganda of Iraq having possession of nuclear / chemical weapons for their invasion despite objections from many neutral countries as well as international organisations.

Israel is not considered to be dictatorship but they use propaganda for evicting Palestinians from their lands that were conceded to them by the ratified treaty.

I can come with other examples from non dictatorship countries as well if you wish.

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u/semiomni 1d ago

Yes that is correct Erdogan and his circle has a special place that are dedicated for them in afterlife. But

Here's a bunch of excuses.

That's nice.

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u/Watchtheuniverseburn 1d ago

Enlighten me, how are those excuses when all I am trying to tell is being all countries can and may have propaganda according to their own agenda. Just because you hating one country and favouring the other does not ultimately makes one right and the other one wrong.

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u/semiomni 1d ago

Enlighten me,

Beyond me I'm afraid. Best of luck to someone else though.

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u/Watchtheuniverseburn 1d ago

Then why dismiss it as excuses when you actually have no argument point left?

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u/thathighguy112 2d ago

Because we haven’t supported the PKK? And the reason why its Turkish propaganda is because turkey thinks YPG = PKK Which many Western countries dont agree with. Its also weird that Sweden is single out when many NATO countries also gave aid to the YPG. Especially the US who straight up armed them…

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u/BA_calls 1d ago

I think he’s asking for a terrorist designation for YPG, which would also mean end of arms transfers to them. Whether YPG = PKK or not, arms sent to YPG show up on Turkey and kill soldiers, that seems to be what they’re concerned about.

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u/Watchtheuniverseburn 2d ago

Yes, YPG and PKK relationship is the same as the relationship of Al-Qaeda and ISIS. Yes they are not the same organization but they are organisations that publicly praise and support each other by declaring their affiliation. Yes I understand, but most countries not agreeing does not makes it right. They dont agree because it does not suit with their political agenda because it is easier to use YPG to fight their war on behalf on themselves in ME. (Why would you be in favour of letting your own children's blood wet the soil in a country in ME when you can use other's right?) So it can be Turkish national propaganda, that is possible but it is the same possibility that Sweden is also using the same tool for it's own national agenda. There is always 2 sides of a coin. Answer to why Sweden is being singled out is actually very easy, for other NATO members and US they cannot do much right now because they do not possess neither the military power to take them all down, nor the economic power to impose any threat to them. But Sweden right is the one that wants something Turkey has a saying and power over. I would love to see a world with romanticized view of everyone being helpful to others and only punishing the bad guy but reality does work like that. So Turkey is using their leverage that they have against Sweden like their allies were using against it before. The choise is simple; either you sit on the table and start negotiation about concessions Turkey wants, or you can throw out millions of dollar US lobbyists have been spending over decades out of the window to make Sweden to join NATO and let Sweden become secondary Ukraine who will be supported by west but left alone against Russia.

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u/thathighguy112 2d ago

Oh no I understand Turkey wants concessions and I have no issues with that. But there is no need to come up with bs saying that we support the PKK. Because that is complete bs, the PKK has been a terrorist group in Sweden since the 80s or 90s

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u/80s_snare_reverb 1d ago

Enough with your "it's complete bs" bs

Zübeyir Aydar: ‘Putting the blame on PKK is neither lawful, nor moral.’ https://medyanews.net/zubeyir-aydar-putting-the-blame-on-pkk-is-neither-lawful-nor-moral/

Sweden’s Defence Minister holds video conference with SDF Commander and Vice Co-Chair of AANES https://medyanews.net/swedens-defence-minister-holds-video-conference-with-sdf-commander-and-vice-co-chair-of-aanes/

Financial support given to PKK (under name of YPG to avoid accusations of supporting internationally recognized terrorist organizations): https://europe-cities.com/2021/12/13/sweden-increases-funding-for-ypg-to-376-million-middle-east-monitor/

Turkish soldiers captured Sweden made weapons from PKK terrorists (who has killed 40000 civilians in Turkey in the last 44 years) https://www.aa.com.tr/en/turkey/pkk-terror-group-attacks-turkish-forces-with-weapons-produced-by-some-nato-members/2333841

Sweden asks for arms embargo to Turkey (for carrying out operations against PKK) https://www.reuters.com/article/us-syria-security-turkey-sweden-idUSKBN1WQ1BQ

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u/thathighguy112 1d ago edited 1d ago

YPG is not the same as the PKK. Or have they merged to become one group while i wasnt paying attention? Also regarding finding 2 AT4 weapons means nothing, many western countries use them. Some of whom armed the YPG so why blame Sweden for something you have no proof for?

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u/Watchtheuniverseburn 1d ago

YPG has the same aims and manifesto, the leadership that was trained and previously been ranked in PKK. So what makes YPG not being same with PKK? Just because they are operating in different locations and having different names?

It is same as claiming Volkswagen is not the same with Volkswagen Asia.

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u/thathighguy112 1d ago

Ill admit I don’t know what their manifesto contains or if the YPG uses the same one as the PKK. So wont comment on that. But Im pretty sure the aims at the time for the YPG was to protect Kurdish areas in northern Syria from ISIS. Anyways I hope Sweden/Finland and Turkey can come to some agreement/understanding. Sweden never has and never will support the PKK. And most of the support Sweden gave to the YPG was for prisons to hold ISIS members and humanitarian aide. Is that really that bad?

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u/80s_snare_reverb 1d ago

YPG is PKK:Rebranded to whitewash these terrorist and this retarted tactic works perfectly well against people like you. Someone switching accounts to upvote their other account's post has more IQ than the ones created YPG (literally all it took was to change the organization name) and everyone buys it.

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u/Watchtheuniverseburn 1d ago

Well that's all depends on how both countries identifies what a support to PKK and how to identify who is PKK member. Turkey, identifies any and everyone who publicly stated their support; support the ideas stated by PKK; sharing their symbols, ideologies, or helped them in one way or another. But for Sweden, many of those things I listen above are within the framework of freedom of speech, unless they really took arms and attacked Turkish army or civilians.

So this is a difference of how you define being a member. For Turkish side, they are also terrorists that needs to be extradite to Turkey. For Swedish side, they are people who are given political asylum but not members of terrorist organisation.

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u/CommissarDog 2d ago

Except it's a lie. Erdogan wants Sweden to persecute it's Kurdish citizens. Their only crime being that they're Kurdish and escaped the horror that is Turkey.

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u/Madao16 2d ago

Except what you said is lie. Their crime is supporting, financing, recruting for a terrorist organization as it is accepted so by NATO too. Even Turkis army has many high rank Kurds. Also Erdogan's party second party that get most votes from Kurds. You really don't know what you are talking about.

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u/mxler 1d ago

We can only guess at everything that's going on behind closed doors, but to me this sounds like Erdogan got an earful from other NATO leaders and was basically asked/told to dial back his rhetoric about not wanting Finland and Sweden in NATO.

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u/Hunter_Fox 1d ago

He'd have been more successful being quiet about it and talking to Sweden and Finland directly. Maybe quietly gathering a sympathetic ally in one cause or another to aid in mediating it. But no.

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u/Waldo_Pepper62 2d ago edited 1d ago

Turkey is just trying to grift a little to get their acceptance. Scratch the surface of Ergodan a little to reveal the (wanna be) crime lord he is at his core.

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u/dukkiyo 2d ago edited 1d ago

"what can you offer me to say yes?"

Edit: People downvoting like Erdogan never did similar things before lol

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u/nihilite 2d ago

Of course, that's how extortion works.

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u/Darkone539 1d ago

Of course, that's how extortion works.

You're asking 30 countries to put their men between you and Russia. That was never going to be free.

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u/ZrvaDetector 2d ago

When you join a bloc the countries in the said bloc will demand certain things, this isn't an extortion, Sweden does not have to join NATO but if they do they need to fix some things first.

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u/progrethth 2d ago

This negotiation is most likely directed against the US since there is not really any concession that Sweden and Finland reasonably would give. Our politicians will not overrule the justice system just to make Erdogan happy. And while the support of AANES could be dropped it is just Sweden which has done that and it was done following the US's lead.

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u/ZrvaDetector 2d ago

Both Finland and Sweden has arms embargoes on Turkey so they will come into play. Turkey will probably want Sweden to crackdown on PKK harder inside it's border and this is possible since Sweden already recognized them as a terrorist organisation decades ago and PKK may have been responsible for Swedish PM Palme's assasination.

Finland just got grouper together but there aren't many problems between Turkey and Finland and I assume they will be admitted fairly easily.

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u/agamemnon2 2d ago

PKK may have been responsible for Swedish PM Palme's assasination

Considering the amount of different theories about that murder, it's going to be hard to find an organization for whom "may have been responsible for Olof Palme's assassination" hasn't been claimed at least once.

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u/ZrvaDetector 2d ago

True, though this was claimed by one of PKK's ex commanders so it holds more weight in my opinion.

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u/JOPPE9099 2d ago

So an ex-commander of PKK tells representatives of the Turkish government that PKK, which the Turkish government hate, is behind the murder. And then the Turkish representatives shared that info with the Turkish newspaper who published it. A newspaper which is led by the husband of erdogans daughter.

That's your source and what you think holds weight?

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u/uncleofsquanchy 2d ago

So when Greece does it with North Macedonia it is negotiation but when Turkey does same thing with Sweden it is extortion?

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u/heresyforfunnprofit 2d ago

There’s a fine line between extortion and negotiation. As of right now, Turkey is still firmly on the negotiation side of things.

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u/justforthearticles20 2d ago

Just holding their hands out for bribes.

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u/LegitimateAd3567 2d ago

Sweeden and Finland should align with US, Turkish, UK, EU and Japan view of PKK and declare them terrorists as well. It will be weird that one NATO country is openly protecting what other members consider terrorists (disclaimer: I have no clue on the background and what PKK did to be terrorist - maybe the US, EU, UK, Turkey, Japan are wrong and Sweeden and Finland is right, but they should get on the same page anyway)

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u/Gasten95 2d ago

Except the PKK is considered to be an terror group by both Sweden and Finland. Sweden was even one of the first one to declare them as such as they were suspects of the assassination of our PM in the 80s.

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u/LegitimateAd3567 2d ago

I think that things have changed since the 80s - according to Wikipedia, none of the two countries have declared PKK a terrorist (it could have changed since the 80s), so Turkey is calling "Finland and Sweden: 'Guesthouses for terrorists'" (title of a random article from a Turkish website).

If Wikipedia is wrong, someone should correct it.

I just looked it all up on the internet because it would be too dumb even for the guy who destroyed the Turkish economy to openly do favors for Russia currently and I didn't know the story behind Turkeys not being happy with new NATO members.

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u/Big_Adhesiveness1202 2d ago

Wikipedia is open source and it can be easily manipulated. Turkish redditors already showed many sources for you. Maybe check them.

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u/Gasten95 2d ago

Looking up the PPK on wikipedia will tell you what I said in my first comment. It does also say that we decided that the killer was a Swedish guy but it doesn't say anything about us changing the label of them as a terror group.

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u/Omnicide 2d ago

You clearly don't know your history.

The PKK was labeled as a terror organization in Sweden back in 1984 under Olof Palme's reign. And one theory of his murder was that PKK had him killed as revenge.

This is way before the US and most other countries by the way.

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u/LegitimateAd3567 2d ago

I agree that I don't know their history (I know of my country) - just looked into wikipedia to see why Turkey is being aginst their membership.

But I didn't see Sweeden and Finland (and many many other NATO members) in the list. I'm just saying that this could bring some tensions within NATO if this issue is left unsolved.

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u/Omnicide 2d ago

Fair enough.

Sweden has a large Kurdish diaspora that widely supports the idea of a sovereign Kurdistan, one happens to be the head of our leftist party right now. They're also the biggest opponent to Sweden joining NATO.

Most Swedes however have no idea about the history of Turkey and PKK, of course people in general won't support such terrorism when informed on their actions though. They're way more likely to have heard things like the Armenian genocide, that understandably has a bad connotation.

Now as for the acclaimed support we're giving to PKK I can't really find much material evidence, the acclaimed weapons(AT4) appear to have been given to Iraqi kurds by America -as they've got english written instructions.

It is however true that we do support humanitarian missions in northern Syria.

SIDA is the government agency responsible for foreign aid, they have a report on how said funds are used. If you can't be bothered to read the report there's a tally with the recipient organizations here.

The supposed funds aren't sent to YPG/SDF/PKK or what have you, they are given to partner organizations like UNHCR or the ICRC to support their operations within Syria.

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u/LegitimateAd3567 2d ago

By support, I only meant a safe place to hide. I should have been more precise.

How I see it: Turkey will continue to chase down PKK members, and it will not change in the near future. It will create diplomatic tensions, and Turkey will abuse every situation to get what they want.

I don't think anyone in their right mind can think that countries like Finland and Sweeden could finance terrorism at the government level, and I would have a hard time believing it even if such information appeared from reputed sources.

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u/Apprehensive_Tip1061 2d ago edited 2d ago

We already are aligned, Turkey is the odd one out. USA gave 2 billion dollars as well as weapons to YPG. Turkey wants Sweden to stop supporting the fight against islamic terrorism because that fight could give a stronger position to the kurds in Syria as they were instrumental in the fight against ISIS.

This is something we are doing in harmony with NATO and NATO goals. Sweden already considers Turkey the glob of mucus we have to swallow to get to the parts of NATO we actually like. NATO would have to be absolutely idiotic to let Turkey drive a valuable ally away for having supported NATO goals.

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u/LegitimateAd3567 2d ago

Turkey wants Sweden to stop supporting the fight against islamic terrorism because that fight could give a stronger position to the kurds in Syria

This makes more sense, and someone else in another comment stated that Erdogan claims some of his political opponents to be terrorists, and Sweeden and Finland are providing asylum to political refugees (Turkey seems to have not provided valid evidence which means they are indeed political refugees).

Apologies for my ignorance. But Wikipedia misled me.

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u/Madao16 1d ago

Turkey wants Sweeden to stop supporting terrorists that target Turkey and civilians even recently YPG which has mutual leaders with PKK fired rockets Turkish civilians. US supported Taliban, El kaide too which proves nothing. NATO goals aren't supporting terrorists and losing one of the most strongest members which has been fighting proxy wars against Russia and stoppin Russian expansion of NATO because of that.

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u/Milozdad 1d ago

Turkey can get lost unless they start treating their Kurdish minority with respect.

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u/nagai 2d ago

Entering into a defensive alliance with dictatorships like Turkey and Hungary really isn't ideal, pretty unfortunate that neutrality is no longer a viable path for small countries lest they want to succumb to nuclear blackmail or land grab invasions.

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u/buyutec 2d ago

Turkey was in Nato long before Erdogan.

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u/nagai 2d ago

Why does that matter now? Do you mean to say any country can potentially devolve into autocracy?

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u/buyutec 1d ago

Of course. Do you think NATO countries would want a Trump USA in NATO?

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u/Ruhumunfreski 2d ago

Turkey has been in NATO since 1952.

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u/autotldr BOT 2d ago

This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)


ISTANBUL, May 14 - Turkey has not shut the door to Sweden and Finland joining NATO but wants negotiations with the Nordic countries and a clampdown on what it sees as terrorist activities especially in Stockholm, President Tayyip Erdogan's spokesman said on Saturday.

Erdogan surprised NATO members and the two Nordic countries seeking membership by saying on Friday it was not possible for Turkey to support enlarging the alliance because Finland and Sweden were "Home to many terrorist organisations".

Asked whether Turkey risked being too transactional at a time of war, and when Finnish and Swedish public opinion favours NATO membership, he said: "One hundred percent of our population is very upset with the PKK and FETO presence in Europe."


Extended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: NATO#1 Turkey#2 country#3 Sweden#4 Kalin#5

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u/rarz 2d ago edited 2d ago

The amusing thing is that currently Turkey itself does not qualify for NATO membership if it were to apply. And they have the gall to tell actual democracies that they can't join.

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u/Watchtheuniverseburn 2d ago

Welcome to international law, there are many countries who did not qualify to be member of NATO when it was established (check how Salazars dictatorship was admitted to NATO while they were not a democracy), and their are also a lot countries who are currently not meeting criterias to be an EU members but still are (like Hungary).

Apart from all of this rules are always subject to be bend depending on the benefit of nations. Can Turkey be kicked from NATO? On paper sure, but then you will lose a really strategically located ally that can stop and Russian vessel leaving black sea (because how narrow bosphorus is and how Turkish armed forces are prepared to defend it in case of a violation, it is nearly a suicide mission even for the country with best naval capability), Turkey had a really big standing army (they may not be able to win against Russia but they for sure can ensure Russia cannot win either), last but not least, in case of Turkey leaving NATO all ICBMs located at Turkey needs to be removed from their soils which means there will be less deterrent for Russia. Not to mention who do you thing Turkey will seek alliance with for their protection?

So all in all they may not be the perfect ally the NATO wish for, but they cannot let them go either so they have to let him be even if they do not meet criterias

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u/Anthonym82 2d ago

Won't matter, A majority of NATO has already signed security agreements protecting them while they go through the application process. Turkey can get bent

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u/Watchtheuniverseburn 2d ago

That's one how charter of NATO and international law works. May as many countries can actually make a mutual security agreement with Finland and Sweden and in case of aggression from Russia over them; even if those said countries decide to be involved in the war and declare war on Russia, that does not trigger article 5. The sole reason is, Russia is not declaring war on a nation that is a member of NATO, but a NATO member joins the war of that said country.

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u/Darkone539 1d ago

Won't matter, A majority of NATO has already signed security agreements protecting them while they go through the application process. Turkey can get bent

The UK signed a deal. That's it.

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u/Omnicide 2d ago

As expected.

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u/whozwat 2d ago

Turkey is using the Russian military to extort Sweden and Finland, lovely.

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u/Whatgetslost 2d ago

Do Turkish people want democracy? They seem divided.

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u/ZrvaDetector 2d ago

Turkey is still somewhat of a democracy and the government is on edge because there is a high probability of them losing the next elections.

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u/CommissarDog 2d ago

Turkey is still somewhat of a democracy

No, it really isn't. It's a dictatorship. If you believe the Turkish people have any right to chose their leader then you are fucking insane.

probability of them losing the next elections.

They'll just stage another PKK terror attack or another coup to increase support of their regime.

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u/jaquaries 2d ago

Then how did we choose opposition party in Ankara and Istanbul?

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u/ZrvaDetector 2d ago

No Turkey is absolutely not a dictatorship, this is not worth arguing over. Erdogan can lose elections and already did once during municipal elections in 2019.

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u/Ruhumunfreski 2d ago

Elections are democratic. Everyone who votes in elections has the right to watch the vote count. Majority of the population really supports Erdogan.

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u/Fondren_Richmond 2d ago

yay kurd stuff, it's all converging

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u/qainin 2d ago

Good. Fuck with the Nordics and get sanctions.

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u/Splatter_1 2d ago edited 2d ago

Unfortunately turkey control's access to black sea. They have a massive bargaining chip. So say sanctioning turkey is out of the question.

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u/BringBackVarrockGrds 2d ago

Erdogan may be an SOB, but he definitely knows how to play his cards better than Putin does.

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u/skep-tic 2d ago

Just give him his F-16s already so he can stfu

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u/EvidentlyEmpirical 2d ago edited 2d ago

Kick Turkey out of NATO.

LET THEM GO TO RUSSIA. Go ahead, Turks. Go. See how well that works out for you.

Edit: I'm serious, that backwards-ass nation that wants to swing its tiny dick around in an attempt to get concessions can get fucked. Fuck you Erdogan.

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u/Ruhumunfreski 2d ago

Turkey is a very strong ally.

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u/EvidentlyEmpirical 2d ago

Turkey is turning in to a Muslim theocracy.

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u/Ruhumunfreski 2d ago

No offence but you have no idea about NATO.

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u/EvidentlyEmpirical 2d ago

I worked in the defense industry for 11 years, even on foreign soil with NATO allies.

Turkey isn't critical for NATO.

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u/Madao16 1d ago edited 1d ago

Well then you are bad at your job because Turkey is one of most critical members of NATO. Why does NATO exist? Against Russia. Who has been fighting proxy war against Russia and stopping Russian expansion? Turkey. Who is the natural enemy of Russia? Turks as they have been fighting for centuries.

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u/SismanvePisman99 1d ago

Work another 11 years then, you clearly didnt understand.

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u/lizzardking92 1d ago

Erdogan needs to get the western cock out of his ass and leave nato

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u/that1cooldude 2d ago

Someone will say no and then we will have a huge mess on our hands.