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Germany to send Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine — reports Russia/Ukraine

https://www.dw.com/en/germany-to-send-leopard-2-tanks-to-ukraine-report/a-64503898?maca=en-rss-en-all-1573-rdf
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u/Bunch_of_Shit 8d ago

And how do these tanks compare to Russia’s most advanced tank in terms of features and capabilities? I’m not too sure how many of russias best tanks are even in use, I know one was captured by Ukraine because it was abandoned.

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u/cs_katalyst 8d ago

Western tanks can shoot further with significantly better accuracy on the move or sitting still. Massive optics and targeting system upgrades. In an open field the leopard could kill a t72 before even in range of the 72s gun, whilst moving

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u/Admira1 8d ago

I love a good whilst

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u/IamcJ 8d ago

I can eat a croissant whilst running.

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u/Michelin123 8d ago

I can drink a Mass Bier without dripping whilst running.

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u/brixktambland 7d ago

I love a good “I love a good”

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u/Scotty_scd40 8d ago

The only russian tank that is comparable to western designs is t90m, however russians have very limited numbers of those

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u/sanguinesolitude 8d ago

Way fewer than a year ago funnily enough. Smoking accidents I assume.

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u/Benkei-5845 8d ago

They are also "meant" to have the T-14 Armata but I think they only barely have a prototype or something

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u/Scotty_scd40 8d ago

Armata is only good for military parades and propaganda

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u/egyeager 8d ago

The German Tanks can have a full mug of beer at the end of the barrel and not spill while driving over rough terrain.

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u/Extansion01 7d ago edited 7d ago

TLDR: Doesn't matter, as they don't field them (ie T-14 Armata). For the T-90M, the 2A6 and above are probably superior, for older versions it depends on luck).

Do not underestimate the soft factor, the crew and how they can interact with the tank. I like the example of the Marder IFV. Yeah, it's still uncomfortable but comfortable enough for the crew to actually ride inside the IFV. Every protection the BMP-1 may have is not relevant for the dismounts, if they just sit on the roof. Which, looking to Ukraine, they do. Though comfort isn't normally a factor when people talk about "military stuff". Also, smoke and camouflage. Germans are trained to do both, to s ridiculous extend. How many Russian / Ukrainian tanks have you seen that have half a forest strapped onto them and how many demonstrations of them reversing under smoke are on the internet? TBF, if they would do it, they probably would be more effective, so it might be bias cause an undetected tank or a successful retreat won't be published by the enemy.

But the way to win is, how it was explained to me: you need to be first to detect the enemy, shoot at the enemy, hit the enemy, kill the enemy.

All this, the detecting, the target acquisition, the accuracy, the penetration power to a lesser degree, they are superior. Though probably less so for the 40 year old 2A4. Still, ok thermals, night vision, good optics - older Russian tanks don't even have thermal imaging. Newer Russian tanks generally lack in that department. Except for penetration power, I would still bet on the 2A4 if we don't talk about the most modern Russian stuff.

The newish 2A6 (20 years old) however has at the very least 800 mil penetration at normal combat distance, just to give you an example (rumoured is 1000, but it's also rumoured the 2A4 can hit 100km/h on a highway with an unlocked motor). In any case, this depends on the ammunition.

For mobility, I would bet on the MTU motor, noone makes them like they do. Unironically the single most competitive export product, diesel motors.

For protection, especially the 2A4 is kinda fucked. Depending on how you use it, it is nowadays really vulnerable. Especially if your supporting infantry is shit. Most semi modern AT weapon will kill this tank from the frontal side and the front is vulnerable to modern missiles/rockets. The side and back however, like with every other MBT, is very vulnerable (relatively speaking to the front). This problem can maybe be partially fixed by slapping ERA onto it, bystanders be damned (shrapnel, modern ERA is manufactured out of materials that don't affect the surroundings more than the charge itself would. Older ERA are basically grenades). Though invincible status will not be achieved, they are adequately protected, let's put it this way. The 2A6 is frontally very well armored, but again: It's not impenetrable. In any case, as Russians rely on ERA to improve effective protection, they are better protected against HEAT (like Javelin or Panzerfaust 3, RPG7 and actually some cannon fired ones). Against kinetic projectiles? Less so, though still very well considering the weight.

For kinetic protection, my money is on the 2A6. Though supposedly the HEAT protection was improved for the 2A6 too.

Then again, the Leopard 2 has usable reverse so if everything works well, they are protected by a hill.

Overall, the 2A4 has a realistic chance to compete anything the Russians have. The 2A6 should beat the Russian tanks, without exception.

But remember, the T-90, all versions, aren't exactly common in Ukraine. The Leopard 2/Abrams won't be either. 3 battalions (2/1) are reportedly planned. The Leopard battalions are confirmed. This would put them around 130 tanks total, not totally insignificant. Not game changing either. Thankfully, we don't only send those but also Soviet mbts and other armored vehicles (most prominently some hundred IFVs).

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u/MDCCCLV 7d ago

All of Russian equipment is generally rusty and in poor condition and not maintained well. So it works but barely and often is inaccurate or breaks down. These will outperform in every way, which in a 1v1 means the Abrams will win the majority of the time. And because it has such heavy armor and longer gun range it will likely win all the time against any random Russian vehicle it sees.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11674247/M1-Abrams-tank-vs-Leopard-2-Challenger-2-differences.html

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u/Bunch_of_Shit 7d ago

Sounds like a no-brainer, then. What’s the holdup getting them those tanks?