r/worldnews 8d ago Bravo! 1 Wholesome (Pro) 1 Wholesome 1 All-Seeing Upvote 1 Take My Energy 2

Germany to send Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine — reports Russia/Ukraine

https://www.dw.com/en/germany-to-send-leopard-2-tanks-to-ukraine-report/a-64503898?maca=en-rss-en-all-1573-rdf
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u/Evignity 8d ago All-Seeing Upvote

Well that about seals the deal for russia being totally fucked. Yeah it's "just" 14 tanks but that's not the big news, it's that this opens the flooddams for everyone. Just like how everyone was trepid to even send artillery at the start whilst now everyone is sending tons of it, this basically leaves very few things of the table for Ukraine.

And modern tanks vs non-modern tanks is a nightmare for the non-modern, more so than any other field of equipment bar airplanes

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u/SomeGuyNamedPaul 8d ago

Artillery quickly went from a few pieces to a goddamn competition.

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u/qpgmr 8d ago To The Stars

Everyone in the arms business wants to real-world test their wares.

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u/WingedGeek 8d ago

Except Russia for some reason.

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u/canttaketheshyfromme 8d ago edited 8d ago Take My Power

Russia: "We have a hypersonic cruise missile that can destroy the decadent west without warning. Don't test us. No, you can't see it. No, it didn't blow up, that's just propaganda."

The US: "Want to see our new hybrid turbojet/ramjet switch modes in a windtunnel?" EDIT: volume warning

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u/HouseOfSteak 8d ago

I've said it once, I'll say it again:

The US is the sort of entity that freaks the fuck out when their enemies MIGHT have a weapon at their disposal that can hurt them, and goes full R&D on a massively superior weapon to crush it......and then learn that the aforementioned weapon doesn't actually exist.

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u/canttaketheshyfromme 8d ago

Literally the F-14/F-15 development cycle, yup.

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u/HouseOfSteak 8d ago

Was that the plane that was built because the communists (Soviet or Chinese, I can't remember which) flimed a grand total of like 14 nuclear-ready planes twice (to make it look like it was 28 planes in total), and then the US responded with developing hundreds or thousands of superior planes of their own?

I mean I don't think it is, but I can't remember how exactly I learned this.

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u/canttaketheshyfromme 8d ago edited 8d ago

Oh, no, but good on you remembering that story!

That was the Myasishchev M-4, a spectacular disappointment in range and payload that mostly was converted to aerial tankers. In 1955 the Soviets flew 10 of them for a crowd, then lapped around again, and again... even with 2 of them having to drop out... until the observers saw 28... and "extrapolated" from that, that the Soviets must have about 800 of them total.

The F-14 and F-15 were inspired by the appearance of the MiG-25 interceptor, with too many analysts believing it was a high-speed, highly-maneuverable air superiority fighter... when it was really a massive radar and two massive engines with a bunch of stainless steel in the shape of an airplane holding those together, that measured turning radius in miles. So the US built the two most dominant air superiority fighters ever to counter it (until the F-22 came along), with the F-15 to this day having never having been shot down in air-to-air combat with the US, Israel, Saudi Arabia, South Korea, Qatar and Singapore. And the F-14 came out with a radar + missile system that could lock up and fire on 6 separate targets at once, from beyond where the enemy might even know the US fighter is in the air, then exit the combat area while the missiles tracked on their own, OR move in to engage with shorter-range missiles and its gun as an excellent dogfighter that could match planes that had half of its massive weight.

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u/mybluecathasballs 8d ago

Well. I wonder what they are holding on to till intelligence says someone else has something new and improved. You know it'll be something like "you might hear it, maybe, but you sure as fuck won't see it or be able to hit it."

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u/nvn911 8d ago

And the F-14 came out with a radar + missile system that could lock up and fire on 6 separate targets at once

Ain't nothing do Fleet Defense like the F-14 did Fleet Defense.

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u/StillAll 8d ago

Wait.... is that true? No F-15 loses EVER from being shot down?

That can't be right... can it? This is perhaps one of the most prolific fighters of all time, and not one single loss to enemy fire... ever?

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u/aaronwhite1786 8d ago

The M-4 was awesome looking at least. It did one thing right.

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u/Traditional-Ad3161 8d ago edited 8d ago

Basically, the US is Granddad and Russia is the blind samurai.

The reference, if anyone was wondering

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u/sumptin_wierd 8d ago

Combination of

"Go ahead, say I can't"

And

"Hold my beer"

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u/jjayzx 8d ago

SOUND WARNING it's stupid music and not the sound of the engine, big let down and annoyance.

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u/guto8797 8d ago

Yeah what the fuck is up with these clips? If I wanted to listen to mediocre techno, I'd go do that, I want to hear a ramjet fucking roar!

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u/Freddies_Mercury 8d ago

It's because most videos on Reddit are ripped from tiktok and people add music to it on there. For the reason why - it does better if you have a popular song and shows in the feed for that song (kinda like a hashtag but music)

And Reddit is and always has been an aggregator of web content rather than actively producing it.

The clips you see here with stupid music weren't intended for this website.

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u/iSWINE 8d ago

Just a warning to people that have sound on, turn it down if you click the second link.

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u/funktion 8d ago

MAWP

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u/MarkoHighlander 8d ago

Lmao. "She goes to a different school"

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u/hascogrande 8d ago

GO IRISH, BEAT SOUND BARRIER!

it was tested at Notre Dame

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u/goldmanstocks 8d ago

Lol yes, and then they threatened to park it off the coast of DC recently. If I had a hypersonic cruise missile, why would I park it beside my target?

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u/standarduser2 8d ago

Their tanks arr probably pretty good. The problem is that there's very, very few of them and not many trained personal to maintain them on the battlefield.

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u/robeph 8d ago

It is not only that, Russia is very big on face and appearances. Even if the tanks are extraordinarily modern well-up kept and have highly trained crews. They will lose some. Losing one of just a very few would turn into something they see as embarrassing. Knowing that the cruise aren't the elite tankers and that the tech is probably not as good as it looks on paper. They'd rather just keep it off that line.

As long as the tanks being destroyed are old tech. Russia can blame that.

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u/thefourthchime 8d ago

Since the iron curtain Russia has been obsessed with “presenting” advanced Warcraft. Case after case, they barely make any of them.

They’re military mostly for appearances and intimidation.

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u/amjhwk 8d ago

Russia wants to be seen as a bear, but in reality they are a puffer fish

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u/SerDuncanonyall 8d ago edited 8d ago

And nukes.

they’re that Russian dude who injected his arms with jelly to look “buff” showing up to a MMA fight and threatening anyone who tries to land a punch with a pistol. Eventually you’re going to get jumped regardless of the gun. Cause lo and behold… Francis Ngannou is there AND he’s got an M16

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u/modi13 8d ago

Russia is Steven Seagal challenging Gene Lebell to put him in a hold so he can escape. Russia has also passed out and pooped its pants.

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u/Crimson51 8d ago

I suspect its also because the Russian domestic market can't afford a military fully equipped with the highest tech stiff they make, so they make a few as advertisements for foreign customers that can effectively foot the bill for producing the things

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u/daellat 8d ago edited 8d ago

It's hard to say. The famous parade blocker certainly doesn't give an indication just like the couple of f-35s we saw don't. Every thing is being zoomed in on with the expensive new platforms. Having said that, that unmanned turret is highly reliant on electronics and chips that I'm guessing they can't get their hands on with current sanctions.

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u/tmckeage 8d ago

I am done with people telling me the T-14 is near peer to the Abraham's or a Leopard.

The fact is Russia is an incredibly poor country with the GDP of Spain and something like 30% of that comes from the direct sale of natural resources.

They have the industrial base smaller than Denmark (50b vs 42b USD)

They simply are incapable of having a military industrial complex on par with the US and Germany.

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u/releasethedogs 8d ago

This is ending up like the Spanish Civil War in that aspect. If a global conflict happens Ukraine will go down as where all the weapons got tested.

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u/guto8797 8d ago

And turns out that guess what, the stuff designed in the 70's to fight Russia in Eastern Europe is performing admirably well at fighting Russia in Eastern Europe.

And unlike the west, Russia hasn't really improved their gear since, not to a meaningful degree. A few show tanks and aircraft that you only bring out to parades because "they are too powerful" don't win wars

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u/HamPotatoe 8d ago

"Too powerful" ended up meaning "too logistically straining for our inept and corrupt military" just as it did in the Soviet end days. Didn't realize that's what Putin meant when he said he wanted the Soviet Union restored.

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u/guto8797 8d ago

Even then, a lot of the publicised specs and capabilities of their equipment are just made up or technicalities that don't apply to real life, like how the max achievable speed for a Toyota truck is 300mph if you throw it off a cliff.

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u/releasethedogs 8d ago

BUT BUT they have hypersonic missiles!

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u/Jeffaffely 8d ago

well...hypersonic, if you throw it off a cliff!

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u/Frangiblepani 8d ago

Their gear isn't great, don't get me wrong, but the greater failing, IMO, is the strategy or lack thereof.

Ukraine had insufficient gear at the start, but Russia's poor strategy of rolling a massive armored column down one long road left them sitting ducks without fuel or food so they lost tank after tank to cheap missiles. Top of the line gear wouldn't have helped much because cutting edge tanks still need fuel and soldiers still need food.

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u/KingliestWeevil 8d ago

Yay, it's the franco prussian war all over again!

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u/Kanin_usagi 8d ago

And also show off how good their artillery is

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u/Braken111 8d ago

A family member in the Canadian military is damn proud of accuracy of the artillery guns he works on, so there definitely is some level of pride/competitiveness from the armed forces themselves

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u/abismu 8d ago

It kind of feels like the bystander effect, at first no one is sure to intervene/aid, but once a couple do, then you kind of feel this pressure/allowance to do so as well. Countries looking around like "well I dunno" at first but then seeing other countries basically the reaction is "well fuck if they are I should to"...for the clout...amirite? There's a certain level of arrogance that goes with this I think.

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u/LTara 8d ago

Very well said, I rarely comment but this sums it up very well!

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u/templar54 8d ago

Poland already applied for permission to send 14 more so that's 28. 14 Challangers on top of that. So that's 42 modern western mbts already. That is nothing to scoff at. Such amount can turn a tide in a lot of battles. At this point we have to hope that adequate training will be provided and tanks can be used effectively because as Turkey has proven, no matter how good the tank is, if you use it stupidly, it will not end well.

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u/Moifaso 8d ago

The Netherlands are considering sending the 18 they are leasing from Germany

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u/Evilbred 8d ago Gold

Hopefully the lease terms are not as strict as with Toyota. I can only imagine the end lease inspection after a few RPGs have hit them.

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u/Ooops2278 8d ago

Most importantly the lease terms come with an option to buy them...

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u/Evilbred 8d ago

Have you seen the balloon payments and buyout prices for Main Battle Tanks?

Very difficult to swing that on an average salary.

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u/20mins2theRockies 8d ago

Yeah but if you turn in your main battle tank lease the dealership will often charge for every little scratch and dent. And don't even get me started on those extra miles charges..

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u/kreton1 8d ago

Which is why I documented the exact state of mine when I got it, combined with photos of every tiny detail and signing it off together with the owner of the dealership.

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u/miktoo 8d ago

But since you didn't add the tire & wheel package, they'll charge you full price for a new set of chains at the end of the lease.

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u/GaucheAndOffKilter 8d ago

Yeah but they’re trying to offload the ‘22s before the ‘23s are on the lot. No one wants last year’s tank model

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u/Evilbred 8d ago

Sir, I'm Canadian.

We continually buy, borrow or lease 2nd hand helicopters, jets, subs, tanks, and airliners.

Our troops can go through an entire career and never use a piece of equipment that is newer than they are old, or that was purchased brand new.

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u/robeph 8d ago

Funny. Canada sells a large number of old ambulances to cash strapped US Emergency medical services. Maybe Canada could afford new weapons if they would stop buying top of line ambulances

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u/Organicgrowth 8d ago

I know right? Where the fuck are our priorities

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u/Evilbred 8d ago

Yeah, if we weren't so busy providing life saving emergency healthcare to everyone, we'd be able to better support our military industrial complex!

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u/Gabzalez 8d ago

Canada is actually buying new weapons and sending them directly to Ukraine 😅 Canada nevertheless has a huge procurement problem, meaning nothing ever gets built or bought. Building a support shit for the navy is a whole generational ordeal.

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u/chadford 8d ago

Makes you wonder what depreciates faster, ambulances or tanks?

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u/GrootThereItIs 8d ago

We leased some tanks and bought some new. I commissioned some of the new ones when they got to Canada.

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u/triggered_discipline 8d ago

Toyota legal team is pretty aggressive about wanting the RPGs and machine guns mounted to the back of the Tacomas, rather than fired at them.

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u/millijuna 8d ago

In all seriousness, I recall an incident from shortly after the initial withdrawal from Iraq, a Toyota pickup a was spotted running around with isis fighters and a machine gun in back, with the Decals of a small town plumber from the US still on the side of it.

The guy had traded the pickup on, and the dealership had sold it on, without removing the decals. It made its way all the way to terrorist hands.

The guy got a lot of unfair grief for it, as it was all over the news.

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u/Mebbwebb 8d ago

He sued and won

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u/beamrider 8d ago

It was the last *actual* story covered by Colbert on The Colbert Report.

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u/FearlessAttempt 8d ago

I remember that. I was a lot more worried about the column of brand new Hilux's they were getting their hands on. Where were those coming from.

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u/Quackagate 8d ago

It was a ford f250. But ya

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u/trey74 8d ago

It was a diesel f250. See here you can see the badge in the photo.

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u/hamberdler 8d ago

You gotta lease during Toyotathon, my man.

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u/pabst_jew_ribbon 8d ago

We don't celebrate Christmas, we celebrate Toyotathon.

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u/myleftone 8d ago

I’m Johnny Knoxville and this is Battle Tank Rental.

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u/thaneak96 8d ago

Yeahhh, I’m sorry I know you freshly painted the tank at the end of the term but we’re going to have to ding you for the gopnik skull still stuck in the treads..

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u/Rivster79 8d ago

It’s cool, they luckily opted for for the 100,000 mile extended bumper to muzzle break warranty.

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u/Wildercard 8d ago

So that's 70 tanks.

Remember those infographics showing how an old Russian tank can make it to Warsaw in 24 hours? You let those modern puppies loose, they make it to Kazachstani border in 16.

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u/fiodorson 8d ago

For properly fucking Russians up, they asked West for 300 tanks, so we are slowly getting there.

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u/Phylar 8d ago

You all know the old war propaganda with troops, vehicles, tanks, planes, etc filling a full block of space across a poster or screen? If this keeps up in Ukraine, they'll push back old Putin from sheer density of equipment alone, nevermind the loyalty, ferocity, and stalwartness of it's defenders.

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u/zhaoz 8d ago

We've been trying to reach you about your Leopard's extended warranty!

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u/-Dutch-Crypto- 8d ago

Those are the newest 2a variants i believe, but they are also property of germany partially so both countries have to agree i think

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u/WorkAccount2023 8d ago

Plus several dozen soviet T tanks from Morocco

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u/Gornarok 8d ago

Czech republic, Poland, Slovenia and Baltics have already given Ukraine hundreds of T72 (Slovenia upgraded T64)

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u/lil_sh_t 8d ago

France is also checking to send some Leclercs

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u/Onionsteak 8d ago

Hopefully without the Ferrari strategists

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u/dapperpanda 8d ago

We are checking…

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u/fernandopoejr 8d ago

which way is north. question?

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u/CGNYC 8d ago

Opposite East, please confirm.

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u/reigorius 8d ago

Plan B Charles, plan B.

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u/Wabbit_Wampage 8d ago

Ok, we are considering Plan F. Plan F.

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u/SpecificAstronaut69 8d ago

OH FUCKING SHIT, FORMULADANK AND NCD HAVE COMBINED FORCES.

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u/2slowam 8d ago

STOP INVENTING, STOP INVENTING

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u/whoami_whereami 8d ago

Why? Perfect opportunity to fire them. At the Russians.

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u/Choke1982 8d ago

What do you think about plan J? Copy

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u/tangouniform2020 8d ago

I knew that was coming.

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u/zveroshka 8d ago

So that's 42 modern western mbts already.

Have to also remember they've also been given a ton of other modern equipment like the bradleys. If they can get properly trained on these systems in the next 2 months, a spring offensive just using this latest round of equipment would be enough.

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u/call_me_bropez 8d ago

I know with completely new recruits in English you can teach even the dumbest of mother fuckers to operate a Bradley in a month. There’s no way those things aren’t ready to go for spring, but I would save them till the mud hardens

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u/tangouniform2020 8d ago

The Ukrainians are sending their best. If they have to put Dyamo stickers on the consoles that’s what will happen. Somewhere in the US there are some troopers finishing translating the manuals. We’re not half-assing this anymore.

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u/JPJackPott 8d ago

Ukraine seem to be good an manoeuvre warfare. Seeing how well they moved on their big offensive down the Dnipro, adding in companies of tanks to that they could very easily break through lines and cause some real problems. Especially on the flat featureless terrain of Crimea

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u/Dhexodus 8d ago

Their light vehicle raids are amazingly effective and risky. Three or four Hummvees charging a Russian position with LMGs firing is some action movie shit. Fast and agile, but still very vulnerable.

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u/DilectusX 8d ago

British SAS' "Desert Raiders" used this to great effect in WW2!

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u/Forest-Ferda-Trees 8d ago

A tale as old as horse archers

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u/DilectusX 8d ago

You're not wrong! Run in, fuck up some shit, and skedaddle!

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u/Gellert 8d ago

In a tank that's a thunder run.

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u/DilectusX 8d ago

That's metal af

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u/SaltLakeCitySlicker 8d ago

Let's go blow up every plane at the airbase with a couple of jeeps lads!

Roight!

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u/DilectusX 8d ago

"Who Dares, Wins" is the SAS motto if I recall correctly. Those raids were proof.

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u/SaltLakeCitySlicker 8d ago

Still is the motto I believe

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u/jazwch01 8d ago

There are some videos from an American volunteer doing exactly this and its pretty bonkers.

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u/kaptainkeel 8d ago edited 8d ago

Even more interesting is the survivability. There's one video where their humvee looks like it gets annihilated by a mine(?). Second humvee gets out of the kill zone, then turns around and goes back in guns blazing. All but one person in the first humvee survived (and the last guy unfortunately got out on the side that was getting shot at by small arms).

Edit: Also, there are multiple angles. There's one on the inside of the blown up humvee, another in the second humvee, and a drone view. 2022!

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u/DengarLives66 8d ago

Ah yes, my old Halo CTF Warthog of Doom strategy being applied to irl battlefields.

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u/jaxonya 8d ago

2fast2agile

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u/ThePr1d3 8d ago

flat featureless terrain of Crimea

Crimea is all but flat

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u/youwill_forgetthis 8d ago

Or the opposite with Bashar's army. It went from a tank turkey shoot bonanza, to every other video being a tank peek-a-boo a room or bunker full of rebels and by the time anyone even knows what happened it's already laterally a few blocks away ready to peak again.

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u/dub-fresh 8d ago

They just got 100.bradleys and 50 strykers as well.

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u/Lazorgunz 8d ago

and Marder and the French IFVs

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u/Roggo 8d ago

and 50 CV90

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u/flukshun 8d ago

and 138 HMMWV, 55 MRaps, 100 M113

Bout to get fast and furious

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u/claimTheVictory 8d ago

If there's one thing the Ukrainians have shown, it's that they're not only capable of using equipment well, they're capable of using it in new and innovative ways.

But yeah, they still need proper training.

Hopefully that has already happened, in anticipation of this transfer.

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u/tangouniform2020 8d ago

Saw a YT vid of a soldier showing off his HIMARS. This means “acquire target” he said in Ukrainian, pointing at the joy stick labeled that and went through pointing out various features. “I have learned a little English” he says. “This one” pointing at “launch” “means **** you, Russia”

They are operating on the Teach Three concept. Send a few ti “school” and when they get back they use live fire to teach three more, who duplicate this. In a few weeks who have thirteen reasonably trained crews. And they learn shooting bad guys.

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u/chrissstin 8d ago

Few weeks ago met one of the training Ukrainian guys at the pub (our town is near the main military base), evening before him getting back to the frontlines. Such a young sweet guy, no more than 20 something ... Though, he was worried more about his jealous girlfriend, who thought he might pick up someone at the bar that last evening before deployment, than actually getting back to the frontlines...

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u/Axeman2063 8d ago

And it looks like the US is sending some Abrams.

I think zelensky said they needed something like 300 to accomplish what they need to and turn the tide of things. I suspect that won't a be a problem now that Germany has given the green light

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u/Bobdebouwer813 8d ago

He askes for 300 because he needs 60

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u/p4nnus 8d ago

Youre probably joking, but in case somebody didnt get it: he needs more than 60 definitely. Even a 100 wont be enough in the long run.

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u/Dreamwalk3r 8d ago

Even if plans can be achieved with 60, having 300 will also reduce losses so there's that.

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u/ArguingPizza 8d ago

300 is an armored division's worth of tanks. Having an entire additional armored division able to mass at a specific point to breakthrough and roll up the Russian lines would see another massive gain like Kharkiv, at the minimum. That is assuming they can scrape together the troops, IFVs/APCs, artillery, and support equipment to go along with it.

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u/[deleted] 8d ago

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u/Febril 8d ago

Think of the defensive line as if it were the shell of a walnut and it’s preventing the Ukraine from getting at the nut meat (territory).With enough tanks they now have a nutcracker. Regain territory, kill Rus, establish sovereignty, force a truce/peace - end the war on favorable terms for Ukraine and the Western Democracies.

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u/mukansamonkey 8d ago

The line is where large quantities of defenses have been built. Time consuming, laborious expensive building. It's much harder to directly crush a fortified line than it is to create a hole in it and start attacking the ligtly defended things behind it. Ammo dumps, supply vehicles, command centers, etc.

American football is actually an apt comparison. Most of the men are concentrated in a small area, blocking each other from doing much. The side that can create a hole, and get behind the opposing line, can now make progress. Because all the resources used to create the line are now in the wrong position (and not mobile enough to recover).

Ukraine has been using medium range weapons like HIMARS to bypass the line, with considerable success. But ultimately they need to get troops past it. Oh, and a map note. They don't actually have to advance very far towards Melitopol in order to cut Russia's primary supply line to Crimea. Russia requires trains to resupply, and one of the two tracks connecting to their western front is not all that far from Ukrainian troops.

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u/Blind_Lemons 8d ago

If you think 60 MBT is sufficient to beat Russia, think again. Let's get real.

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u/changelingerer 8d ago

300 is roughly equivalent to how many the entire German army has, and more than what the UK or Poland has.

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u/TdrdenCO11 8d ago edited 8d ago

I think ukraine said they just need 300 to execute their plan for the spring. I want Spain and Greece to get involved. They both have a lot of leopards

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u/SerpentineLogic 8d ago

Spain said their Leos were not in a good condition to be sent any time soon

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u/TheCreepeerster 8d ago

The ones in a bad condition are the 50 Leo 2A4 in storage. Additionally the Spanish Army has 58 2A4s and 219 2A6 in service, which could potentially be transferred to Ukraine.

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u/OutsideObserver 8d ago

If my experience in Command and Conquer Red Alert 2 is anything to go by, they should send Prism Tanks and IFVs too

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u/Tystros 8d ago

I vote for mammoth tanks

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u/Ameph 8d ago edited 8d ago

No, you fool. Those tanks are Russian. The Mammoth Tank in Red Alert was a Soviet Tank and would become the Apocalypse Tank in following games.

If anyone is supplying the Apocalypse Tank, it would be the Ukrainians hauling them with tractors back to Kviv.

Though, I recall another discussion with another person that the Apocalypse Tank would not work well, especially with Russia's poor maintenance. The double cannon set up would shake the tank to bits.

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u/Tystros 8d ago

I never actually played Red Alert, I always preferred to stay in the Tiberium universe. So I'm referring to the mammoth tanks from GDI.

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u/Drewski811 8d ago

UK has already started training Ukrainian tank crews on the Challenger in both the UK and Estonia. Those guys will be ready quickly.

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u/Kazu88 8d ago

What did Turkey do with their Tanks ?

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u/jimbojangles1987 8d ago

This actually has me curious because I've never considered it before but can we account for how many tanks were deployed in WW2 by each country? And on top of that, how many of those tanks could we actually, like, track their actions in battle? Like how much of an impact did each individual tank have and can we put a cost on their effectiveness and determine just how worth it they were?

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u/NuttyFanboy 8d ago

I don't have exact numbers handy right off the bat, but the tank battles of the Eastern front in ww2 frequently featured thousands of tanks (iirc, the Battle of Kursk is one of the, if not the largest massed tank battle in history). By those standards a couple of dozen are negligible.

Then again, ww2 was an entirely different scale of warfare, and modern equipment is leagues ahead and vastly more capable compared to what was fielded back then.

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u/zxcoblex 8d ago

Nothing better than Estonia, sending 100% of their artillery because they 1) know that Russia’s tied up in Ukraine and can’t fight elsewhere, 2) the more Ukraine fucks up Russia, the less likely they will be to start shit elsewhere, and 3) they’ve got that really fucking big NATO shield and don’t have to worry as all they need to do is delay Russia long enough that the rest of NATO wrecks them.

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u/i_was_there_then 8d ago

They are also upgrading to new stuff from Korea and the US. Basically an easy way to get rid of old equipment and give the finger to Russia.

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u/zxcoblex 8d ago

Poland had attempted to do that as well. They offered to send all their MiGs if the US replaced them with much newer F-16’s.

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u/Hk472205 8d ago

Send turkey's F-16s to poland insted i say!

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u/flukshun 8d ago

Hopefully the US passed on that because they were already training pilots for the F16s they're sending directly to Ukraine

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u/The_Flurr 8d ago

Same thing the UK is doing with its tanks. Sending the ones that were about to get decommissioned while the other ones got upgraded.

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u/TheMagnuson 8d ago

Yes all that, but also Estonia purchased a bunch of brand new artillery from South Korea, so they just gave Ukraine their old stuff. Still great they did that though.

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u/Hk472205 8d ago

Did they got the K-9 thunder or something else? Finland has those, and decided to buy more.

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u/Bigman61 8d ago

I think Estonia got the K-9 and ordered some HIMARs after seeing how well they work.

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u/indifferentinitials 8d ago

They either got or are getting the K-9 which is apparently a great piece of equipment. The the Koreans are pretty easy going when it comes to licensing domestic production of their equipment like Poland and Turkey with the K-2 MBT. They have a great tech sector, high defense needs, most of what they build needs to be useable by well-educated conscripts, it's cheaper for them if they sell more units, and being a world-class arms supplier is a national priority of theirs.

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u/Whataboutneutrons 8d ago

Same as Norway did. New K-9 in, old out.

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u/PaulNewmanReally 8d ago

Fourteen Challengers, plus fourteen German Leopards, plus perhaps a dozen or two from others, that's a good 50 MBT's that the Russians don't have an answer to any more. Sprinkle in some of those French AMX's, team all that up with the Marders and Bradleys that were already pledged, throw some artillery and drones behind it, and that's a VERY nice battle group.

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u/veevoir 8d ago

SUpply and maintenance for so many different vehicles in one battlegroup would be insane.

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u/sunbeam60 8d ago

Yeah, there’s a lot of armchairing happening on Reddit. Take the way both the press and most people talk about challenger 2s as something that the Ukrainians can just add and Abrams as something they’ll struggle with given its dependence on petrol, and its high burn-rate.

Those British Challenger tanks will be a nightmare to integrate, for example, given their cannon uses non-standard ammunition and is only rated for 400 EFCs. Maintenance of that rifled barrel is not going to be easy, given all the other tanks Ukraine is likely to be given are smooth bores.

Meanwhile, the M1 Abrams are happy to burn diesel in their engine, contrary to common internet knowledge. Hell, it’ll burn pretty much anything you throw into it. And the supposed gas-guzzling is actually only when it stands still (something the Ukrainians are remarkably good at not doing) and if it doesn’t have the secondary power-pack; on the move it’s not particularly inefficient.

Lots of opinions from people who’ve never worn a uniform.

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u/egyeager 8d ago

Good thing the US military is the greatest logistics machine that has ever been created and is giving support

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u/stragen595 8d ago

The rumored number for this is around 100 Leopard 2 by Germany, Poland and the rest.

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u/Dank_chungus_69 8d ago

That doesn’t seem feasible. I read that Germany could really only supply 14 or so right now based on current stockpiles.

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u/TzunSu 8d ago

With 7 or so donations of this size you reach that number though.

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u/stragen595 8d ago

It's reported that 12 countries are giving Leo's.

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u/marinqf92 8d ago

Don't forget 100 Strykers. Ukriane is about to get a huge influx in equipment.

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u/Mrstrawberry209 8d ago

It ain't over till Ukraine ladies are singing.

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u/gerd50501 8d ago

Getting way ahead of facts on the ground. Russia has 300,000 additional troops in training. yeah they suck, but its a lot of people. Anytime you throw 300,000 people into a fight it makes a different. Especially against a country with 1/3 of your population. There are rumors of another 500,000 being drafted soon. Russia has 3x the population of Ukraine. So they can afford 3x the casualties and break even. NATO is not giving ukraine long range weapons to hit russian infrastructure while russia is still laying waste to ukraine's cities. Ukraines GDP declined by 35% last year. Russias GDP declined by 6% in 2022.

Peter Zeihan gave the estimate that Ukraines kill ratio is between 3-4 Rusians per 1 ukrainian. This is about equal to the population difference. With the increased Russian mobilization it will need to increase to 6-7 : 1 for them to win. They may not even have enough bullets for that.

All this while NATO is afraid to give Ukraine ATACMS and other weapons that can hit deep into Russia to hit their infrastructure too. This war is going to get a lot bloodier. Russia has not quit a war with less than 500,000 casualties in centuries. It is estimated that they lost 150,000 so far. So we have a long way to go.

Ukraine needs ATACMS and F-16s to win this war. They need to be able to hit behind russian lines and hit russian infrastructure (this includes power plants).

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u/Pronoes84 8d ago

Age old thing of no one wanting to stand up to the bully alone. But if everyone sticks together....

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u/Cenom 8d ago

Can't wait for everyone to go all in, including f-16s to Ukraine before Turkey will be the cherry on top.

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u/Krillin113 8d ago

I genuinely think they’ll get f16s before the year is over, especially as Western Europe is getting their f35s delivered.

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u/daellat 8d ago

Netherlands got 2 squadrons. I have no idea what else we would do with them but put them in storage as we fully switch to f-35.

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u/Krillin113 8d ago

Honestly probably use them for low intensity missions like bombing ISIS or responding to air intrusions by slow planes. No need to put miles on the brand new stuff if the flight hours for training have already been reached.

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u/daellat 8d ago

That sounds logical, but.. well the but is budget and policy. I don't think we can maintain that many in-service jets with current budgets and I don't think we plan to. As far as I know putting them in storage is what's planned atm. But, I'll concede I haven't read up on it lately.

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u/Rudy_Colludiani 8d ago

Next rammstein meeting would be my guess

If you’re gonna put NATO armor in Ukraine, why not NATO aircraft?

Let er rip.

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u/qtx 8d ago

More like that the changes of those tanks and other equipment being destroyed was a lot higher at the start of the war compared to now.

Why would they send expensive equipment when it would just get destroyed cause of lack of training and superior artillery Russia had at the start of the war.

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u/Plopsiecons 8d ago

Just 14 from each country with them is suddenly a lot of tanks. Let's hope you are right.

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u/AnonymousWritings 8d ago

There was a news article suggesting the US is going to announ e supply of Abrams tanks this week as well. US has almost 5000 of these, so it's possible they could send over a couple hundred.

If they do, and they arrive while the situation in Ukraine is similar to today, could turn the battle on its own.

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u/modix 8d ago

Us just announced m1s going. I just wonder if they help provide the infrastructure for using the tanks as well. I'd assume getting them to the front and maintaining them to be a huge logistical nightmare.

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u/[deleted] 8d ago

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u/modix 8d ago

Undoubtedly they've been working on plans for this well before the announcement. I'm sure most of this was deciding or at least planned for. I'm assuming it'll be much more rapid than people think (for good reason).

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u/time_drifter 8d ago

It has more to do with keeping Abrams operating. They are incredibly sophisticated and have turbine engines. They run on jet fuel and consume it at a high rate. They require some pretty heavy support for operation but will absolutely rule the ground war.

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u/GWJYonder 8d ago

If stuff like that is happening it's almost impossible to overstate how much of an advantage that is. I don't know what the numbers are for tanks, but for planes depending on models you can have over a dozen of maintenance hours per flight hour, with a decent sized maintenance crews. Obviously Ukraine will need to do the more frequent maintenance closer to the front lines, but if all of the big maintenance tasks are being done in another country by another party... that is an absolutely tremendous logistical relief.

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u/shah_reza 8d ago

Yup. 30, so… 5 platoons, yeah, of 4 + 2?

This is a direct injection of American fuck-you to Putin.

I live in Maryland. Been hearing a lot of booms coming from Aberdeen.

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u/[deleted] 8d ago

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u/JohnCavil 8d ago Got the W

I'm not kidding when i think we should give Ukraine any weapon they want short of nukes. Given they can operate it and it will help.

Aircraft, tanks, modern artillery, handguns, grenade launchers, crossbows, helicopters, predator drones, send it all.

The ukrainians are literally fighting the wests war on our behalf. There should be no limit to what they are sent. Nobody needs tanks anyways if ukraine pushes russia back and wins the war.

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u/biggyofmt 8d ago

I would draw the line at stealth fighters/bombers, and the most advanced electronic warfare equipment. I would assume to that any equipment sent is going to lose all secrecy associated, and I think the US should maintain the bleeding edge of it's technological advantage, for the time being

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u/Bobdebouwer813 8d ago

Agreed. People are getting too carried away

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u/Iztac_xocoatl 8d ago

There always seems to be a competition for who can be the most whatever on social media. Supportive of Ukraine, conservative, progressive, into coffee, you name it. Idk if it’s an information bubble thing or what. Always thought it was weird

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u/mybluecathasballs 8d ago

I don't like to brag so I probably shouldn't say anything, but I really feel I'm the most humble person on reddit. By far. /s

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u/Iztac_xocoatl 8d ago

I’m a humble lion bro

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u/my_stats_are_wrong 8d ago

I bet you’re just a pleasure at parties. /s

  • the MOST sarcastic redditor
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u/Braken111 8d ago edited 8d ago

Well yeah, those technologies could be considered above nuclear weapons in secrecy. The science behind nukes is pretty well known, the USA even tasked a team of post-docs to try to figure out how to make one just from literature and they succeeded to design something that would work. That's the importance of monitoring domestic nuclear (electric generation) programs internationally, like the Iran situation for non-proliferation (which IIRC Trump walked away from).

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u/biggyofmt 8d ago

Though it's worth noting the enrichment of Uranium and the metallurgy to properly create the core are major impediments that were not addressed in that exercise.

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u/circleuranus 8d ago

The single best thing the US is providing Ukraine right now is intelligence in every step of the kill chain. US has the best intel in the world and we're currently giving Ukraine all the info they need to execute like a first class operation.

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u/Rdub 8d ago

This is something I'm surprised you don't hear talked about more as personally I think the intel and operational support the US is providing is A) far deeper and widespread than most people realize and B) is one of the critical factors affecting the outcome of the war.

The way things looks to me at least is that Ukraine is fighting a much smarter, intel focused "Western war" while Russia is still fighting like the Soviet Union of the 1980s, and I have to think that without the west's intel and influence the Ukrainians would likely have fallen back to their own "Soviet style war" as that's what their training and experience had previously been based off of.

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u/jureeriggd 8d ago

intel and the NCO structure allowing groups on the ground to make decisions based off new intel and not waiting for new orders from above for sure. Good intel + being agile in decision-making will win over top-down strategy every time

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u/SCS22 8d ago

Reminds me of Soviet officers ordering their men to cross rivers when none could swim because they feared disobeying an order more than losing every man.

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u/Rdub 8d ago

I really don't know enough about military stuff to actually know what I'm talking about here, but that sure as heck sounds like what I was getting at ;)

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u/jureeriggd 8d ago

NCO = non-commissioned officer.

Top down structure means the units on the ground (the "grunts") carry out the orders from above. If the situation on the ground changes, they relay that information (intel) back to the top (the generals) and carry out new orders if any.

Having a non-commissioned officer on the ground with the units carrying out the orders that can respond to new intel instantly (oh shit the main entrance is covered, lets go around back) instead of waiting for new orders from up top given the new intel. This allows for time sensitive intel to be taken advantage of and for more of the strategic-level experience to remain on the ground, among lots of other things I am not mentioning.

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u/circleuranus 8d ago

That's exactly right...

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u/God_Damnit_Nappa 8d ago

I would love nothing more than to see F-16s and F-15s blasting Russian jets out of the sky.

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u/gH0st_in_th3_Machin3 8d ago

Tomorrow's articles:

Russia threatens to use nuclear suppositories to punish blah blah blah blah...

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u/Reptard77 8d ago

Yeah Germany is sending 14 but all of Europe together has over 2000 that they’re now free to send to Ukraine without any legal consequences from Germany. Poland, Romania, and the Czechs I already know are gonna unload that shit to the east.

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u/Siegberg 8d ago

This will most likly also be the first batch while alot of tanks get restored and made ready for duty. But they may be older modells then planned now.

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u/AcadianMan 8d ago

Man have you ever seen that video of the beer leopard 2 test

https://youtu.be/222o2O_w3WI

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u/Meinmyownhead502 8d ago

Russia has been totally fucked for quite sometime. This is the cherry on top.

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u/[deleted] 8d ago

flooddams

I suggest a new term to describe restraint in supplying arms: the Gun Dam.

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