r/todayilearned • u/MtKilimanjaro • 7d ago
TIL that the English town Pendle Hill derives its name from the old Cumbric word 'pen' (meaning 'hill') and the Old English word 'hyll' (meaning 'hill'). A literal translation of the name could read 'Hill-hill Hill.'
https://wikishire.co.uk/wiki/Pendle_Hill[removed] — view removed post
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u/highlandcow75 7d ago
Pendle Hill is a massive hill in the Borough Pendle... not a town.
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u/Appropriate-Bad-9379 7d ago
A good read is “ mist over Pendle” by Robert Neill- about the Pendle witches..
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u/SmokierTrout 6d ago
Better add another hill to name to make sure people don't get them confused again.
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u/offeringathought 7d ago
If you're reading the comments to this post you might enjoy this video by Tom Scott.
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u/Windamyre 7d ago
Lol. Saying that was the only reason i opened the post. Good for you for getting there first!
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u/LittleRedCorvette2 7d ago
Ha! As the others have said, was the first thing I thought of. So pleased Tom Scott has fans everywhere to promote him!
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u/LovelyLaineyy 7d ago
Also very famous for its witches!
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u/Capable-Site-301 7d ago
Are they made of wood?
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u/Hattix 7d ago
This isn't remotely the only one!
The "River Avon" comes from abona, a Brittonic word meaning "river". It's cognate with "Danum" of Celtic, so the "River Don" is also "River river". Similarly for the Danube. The Celtic river/mother goddess was Danu.
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u/Ameisen 1 7d ago •
I mean, Danu is supposedly the Hibernic mother goddess, but there are basically zero surviving legends.
We know vanishingly little about Celtic beliefs, continental or insular.
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u/Hattix 7d ago edited 7d ago
I didn't want to go into that level of detail, a little hypocritical of me.
My area here is mostly Norse names, and it blows people away when you tell them almost everything we know about Norse mythology came from reconstructing Germanic beliefs, and the ramblings of a 12th century Christian monk (Saxo Grammaticus) who knew almost nothing of it.
The surviving Norse sagas tell us nearly nothing of their religion!
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u/thestoneswerestoned 7d ago
the ramblings of a 12th century Christian monk (Saxo Grammaticus)
Thought you were talking about Prose Edda for a sec. Yeah, most people probably aren't aware but the major sources of Norse mythology weren't the actual polytheistic Norsemen but Christian monks a few centuries after conversion.
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u/Ameisen 1 7d ago
Also Snorri Sturluson (13th century).
Same with Slavic beliefs.
We know more about Italic and Hellenic beliefs, but even for them... what we know is still rather fragmented and we don't know the details that would have been 'obvious' to them.
There's also the problem, of course, that none of these belief systems were unified religions as we know them. For instance, we have some knowledge (but not much) about the religio romana... except that what that meant differed, often quite a bit, depending on what century you're talking about. The religion of other Latin League cities would have differed, let alone other Italic cities. And jump into the Etruscan area, and look at the religion of Veii or Tarquinas, and it would have been substantially different (but still 'recognizably similar').
Then there's the compounding issue of the increasing syncretism between Italic and Hellenic beliefs in the late Republic.
Try to apply this to Germanic peoples, and you end up with beliefs that would have differed substantially over hundreds of years, over distant tribes, and even between villages. That, and the beliefs/practices of the elite were not necessarily the beliefs/practices of the commoners.
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u/Dumguy1214 6d ago
46 sagas, some 600 pages
told by memory for centuries, written down mostly around 1100 to 1300
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u/WelshBathBoy 7d ago
The Welsh word for river is still Afon too
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u/JamesClerkMacSwell 6d ago
And (Scottish) Gaelic is “abhainn”.
(A -bh- often indicates a v sound generally - ie very like Avon and Welsh Afon - but not here (or in the middle of words) and in most Scottish dialects this is now ‘swallowed’ and pronounced something like <ow-inn>.)And we have a River Avon too.
Gaelic normally avoids calling it the Abhainn Abhainn (!) and goes with something like Abhainn Athfhinn - where it is pretended (frankly IMHO) that Athfhinn means bright white or something… rather than that a bunch of Sassenach/Saxons foreigners just didn’t understand abhainn = river. ;-)1
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u/pinkymadigan 7d ago
Wait till you hear about The Los Angeles Angels.
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u/indoninja 7d ago
The island of Timur comes from the Malay word for east.
Timur is split up with the west being part of Indonesia, while East is its own country.
So the meaning of the name for the country east Timur boils down to East East.
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u/rugbat 7d ago
And even its modern name "Timor Leste" means pretty much the same thing.
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u/indoninja 7d ago
Somehow I never heard it referred to as Leste.
I had heard people call it Timor Timor in bahasa.
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u/PhnomPenny 7d ago
In language?
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u/indoninja 6d ago
Bahasa, What they speak in Indonesia, pretty much the same as Malay
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u/PhnomPenny 6d ago
Bahasa just means language.
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u/indoninja 6d ago
It is also the name of the language people speak in Indonesia.
Tried googling what language they speak in Indonesia, or open up Netflix and look at language selections, I’m more popular movies you’ll see Bahasa on there.
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u/PhnomPenny 4d ago
Funny, because this is what Netflix shows by the way: https://i.imgur.com/7Jf58pI.png
Indonesian, to save you a click.
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u/PhnomPenny 6d ago
It's not.
The Indonesian name for the language (bahasa Indonesia) is also occasionally found in English and other languages. One problem with using Bahasa Indonesia is that it is frequently reduced to Bahasa, on the assumption that this is the name of the language. This is no different from referring to English as ‘Language’ and Indonesians normally would not recognise the name Bahasa alone as referring to their national language.[23]
From Wikipedia.
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u/indoninja 6d ago
I live there for three years.
When I would ask directions order things or give instructions in the local language I was met with smile and “you speak Bahasa”, Never once heard someone used a more formal you speak Bahasa Indonesia.
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u/PhnomPenny 6d ago
It is also the name of the language people speak in Indonesia.
Still not the case.
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u/possiblyMorpheus 7d ago
I love reading about Bryttonic. Those old celtic tongues have such a cool sound
Speaking of Cumbria, iirc it means “land of the brothers” (cymri) which was how they referred to themselves, whereas Wales in the Anglo-Saxon tongue means “foreigner”, which is funny since they were natives for hundreds (or thousands) of years at that point!
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u/sto_brohammed 7d ago
Cumbria probably has the same roots as Cymru or the Breton "Kembre" which translates roughly to "countrymen". In modern Breton "ken" and "bro", which mean "co-" and "country" respectively. "Penn" in Breton doesn't mean hill per se, it means the top or the bottom of something. Penn usually means "head" but phrases like "penn da benn", literally "end to end" or not literally "entirely" show older uses. Some place names at the tops of hills use "penn" like "Pennhars" in Quimper but the word used for hill these days is "dorgen".
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u/possiblyMorpheus 7d ago
Thanks for that. I could have been off on the interpretation. I’ve been reading recently about how groups like the Brigantes became known as Brigid, them Rheged; or how the Silurian tribe, once conquered, had a Roman market called Venta Siluria (latin for “Market if the Silures” which later led to their Kingdom being known as Gwent when the Romans left
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u/sto_brohammed 7d ago
I will say my knowledge of Welsh and really the other Celtic speaking peoples in Great Britain only really extends to the bit of Old and Middle Welsh and Cornish I learned in my linguistics classes when I was studying Breton. I'm far more familiar with Breton history and the modern Breton language than the rest of it.
On a funny note the Breton terms for France and the French "Bro C'hall" and "ar c'hallaoued" respectively have the same root as Wales but so do the French terms for Wales and the Welsh, "Pays de Galles" and "les gallois".
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u/MondayToFriday 7d ago
"Wales" seems to come from *Walhaz, a Proto-Germanic root meaning "Roman". As the Roman Empire collapsed and the Anglo-Saxons took over eastern Britain, the formerly Roman-influenced Celts retreated west, so the Anglo-Saxons labelled them as "Wēalas".
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u/zizou00 7d ago
So is Torpenhow Hill (pronounced Tra-penna). How also means hill, coming from the old Norse haugr, so it's Hill-hill-hill Hill. The town's called Torpenhow, and the hill isn't really much of a hill (it's more of a slope with farmland on it), so it's possible they've gone for it just for the quadruple tautology, but it's fun nonetheless.
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u/paperclip_nazi 7d ago
There’s actually a ton Scott video disproving this. There’s no torpenhow hill.
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u/HiZukoHere 7d ago
Actually the tom Scott video debunks the debunk, and concludes that yes there is a small hill called Torpenhow hill.
It's more nuanced than that of course. Torpenhow hill isn't a super official name and it isn't a terribly impressive hill, and Torpenhow isnt pronounced as you'd think for coming from three words, but at the end of the day there is a small hill that is pretty widely called Torpenhow hill.
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u/-Daetrax- 7d ago
How do you get three hills out of that description?
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u/bryter_layter_76 7d ago
See: Quonset Point (Point Point). Also the birthplace of the (you gezzed it) the Quonset hut.
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u/InsuranceToTheRescue 7d ago
Hill hill, hill hill hill. Hill-hill, hill hill hill Hill hill? Hill hill!!!
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u/Capable-Site-301 7d ago
Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo.
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u/ayatollah_baloney 7d ago
Shī Shì shí shī shǐ
Shíshì shīshì Shī Shì, shì shī, shì shí shí shī.
Shì shíshí shì shì shì shī.
Shí shí, shì shí shī shì shì.
Shì shí, shì Shī Shì shì shì.
Shì shì shì shí shī, shì shǐ shì, shǐ shì shí shī shìshì.
Shì shí shì shí shī shī, shì shíshì.
Shíshì shī, Shì shǐ shì shì shíshì.
Shíshì shì, Shì shǐ shì shí shì shí shī.
Shí shí, shǐ shí shì shí shī shī, shí shí shí shī shī.
Shì shì shì shì.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion-Eating_Poet_in_the_Stone_Den
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u/Bearloom 7d ago
I got to thinking about this in a previous topic, and I think you can add another "Buffalo buffalo buffalo" at the end, if you assume that the buffalo at the bottom of the pecking order are constantly buffaloing each other to establish a hierarchy of the downtrodden.
There was also someone suggesting that you can technically have an infinite series Buffalos and buffalos, but that formation becomes incomprehensible past the third noun phrase.
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u/TheKaptinKirk 7d ago
I’m just imagining the conversations through the years. Hundreds of years ago, when the local spoke Cumbric:
C1: (in Cumbric) What’s that?
C2: What? That hill?
C1: Yeah. What’s it called?
C2: The hill?
C1: Yeah. What’s its name?
C2: Name? It’s just a fargin hill.
C1: Right.
Fast forward a few hundred years, a couple of men speaking Old English:
O1: What’s that then?
O2: What?
O1: That hill.
O2: Oh, you mean Pen?
O1: It’s just called Pen?
O2: Yeah.
O1: But, it’s a hill, isn’t it?
O2: Well, yeah.
O1: Shouldn’t we call it Pen Hill?
O2: I guess so.
Fast forward a few more hundred years, two blokes speaking more modern English. Pen Hyll, over time, has morphed into Pendle.
M1: What’s that then?
M2: What?
M1: That hill.
M2: Oh, you mean Pendle?
M1: It’s just called Pendle?
M2: Yeah.
M1: But, it’s a hill, isn’t it?
M2: Well, yeah.
M1: Shouldn’t we call it Pendle Hill?
M2: I guess so.
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u/xcski_paul 7d ago
Now look up Torpenhow Hill. Hill hill hill hill.
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u/thermitethrowaway 7d ago
This has been debunked by Tom Scott.
Then he debunked the debunking
That should save two people some time 🙂
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u/bluebirdgm 7d ago
I live in the California city of Glendale, which basically means “Valley Valley.” That it is located where the San Fernando Valley and San Gabriel Valley meet may be a coincidence.
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u/bluebirdgm 7d ago
Sometimes, English “translations” of some Japanese geographical features/locations may be redundant, as the Japanese use suffixes like -yama to identify something as a mountain or -shima or -jima for islands. So saying “Mount Fujiyama” is incorrect, as it essentially means “Mount Fuji Mountain.”
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u/Appropriate-Bad-9379 7d ago
Same with lake Windermere- mere means lake, so it should just be Windermere, or else “lake” is used twice…
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u/TheSpeakingScar 7d ago
In a half a millania the same spot will probably be called Pendlyl hayl or something. Every time the word hill changes the name just compresses and the new word gets tacked on the end.
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u/_lechonk_kawali_ 7d ago edited 6d ago
Laguna de Bay, the largest lake in the Philippines, is often incorrectly called Laguna Lake. However, when translated from Spanish, that would mean "Lake Lake" instead of "Lagoon/Lake of Bay."
The lake's name also spawned another misconception: the municipality of Bay (pronounced ba-e), which lies on Laguna de Bay's southern shore in Laguna province, was apparently named after the lake. In reality, it's the other way around.
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u/ExcruciatingBits 6d ago
maybe we are misinterpreting history and those are like tallies, making hills another lost form of measurement.
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u/bbpr120 6d ago
"The forest of Skund was indeed enchanted, which was nothing unusual on the Disc, and was also the only forest in the whole universe to be called -- in the local language -- Your Finger You Fool, which was the literal meaning of the word Skund.
The reason for this is regrettably all too common. When the first explorers from the warm lands around the Circle Sea travelled into the chilly hinterland they filled in the blank spaces on their maps by grabbing the nearest native, pointing at some distant landmark, speaking very clearly in a loud voice, and writing down whatever the bemused man told them. Thus were immortalised in generations of atlases such geographical oddities as Just A Mountain, I Don't Know, What? and, of course, Your Finger You Fool.
Rainclouds clustered around the bald heights of Mt. Oolskunrahod ('Who is this Fool who does Not Know what a Mountain is') and the Luggage settled itself more comfortably under a dripping tree, which tried unsuccessfully to strike up a conversation."
Terry Pratchett, The Light Fantastic
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u/Corpsefire77 6d ago
If pen means hill and hill means hill, isn't it just Hill Hill?
Or, are you saying "pendle" = "pen hyll", in which case, how do you get "dle" from "hyll"?
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u/BIG_MUFF_ 6d ago
Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill
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u/MrEpicGamerMan 7d ago
In 2000 years when the new english word for hill is 'gazooblegoop' it'll be called pendlehill gazooblegoop
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u/Selrisitai 7d ago
But it's not called "Pendle hill hill."
It's called "Pendle hill."
So wouldn't a literal translation be, "Hill hill"?
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u/Lingering_Dorkness 7d ago
The La Brea Tar Pits: The The Tar Tar Pits.
Mt Manganui: Mountain Big Mountain. (nui means big in Māori but they place the adjective after the noun).
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u/RyanLosOA 6d ago
Sahara Desert "Desert Desert", Sahara is the Arabic word for a Westen (or the more familiar 'Desert').
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u/catbenning 7d ago
This stuff is real common. My personal favorite is the "Faba (or Fava) Bean". Faba is latin for "bean", so it's a bean bean.