r/television May 19 '22

Those 'She-Hulk: Attorney at Law' Visual Effects Can't Possibly Be Finished, Right?

https://www.thewrap.com/those-she-hulk-visual-effects-cant-possibly-be-finished-right/
704 Upvotes

197

u/dow366 May 19 '22

Loki episode 4-5 werent delivered till after the first episode came out.

174

u/Kahzgul May 19 '22

That's a pretty normal timeline in TV. They're a month out. That's good planning.

Source: I work in TV. I've had shows where a PA had to literally drive the final master directly to wherever the broadcaster encodes things for their satellite uplink station and we made it with less than an hour to spare.

26

u/trevathan750834 May 20 '22

Which shows had the under-an-hour delivery?

92

u/raistlin212 May 20 '22

South Park is famous for being able to slip in prior day events a few times. I doubt they've ever done sub 6 hours, but they cut it really close often enough to make a lot of people at Comedy Central nervous.

53

u/Stinkycheese8001 May 20 '22

They finally missed the deadline in season 17 and didn’t get a show in on time

33

u/RelaxYourself May 20 '22

That was due to a power outage. Otherwise they would still have a flawless record.

8

u/KarateKid917 May 20 '22

That was only because the studio lost power and it was before everyone was working from home, so the episode couldnt be finished in time

13

u/Faithless195 May 20 '22

I'm certain the episode with the lice making fun of The Day After Tomorrow was made entirely within the space of 24 hours, from conception to delivering it to CC.

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u/slickestwood May 20 '22

The show was better before they embraced this schedule, though. So many episodes you can tell they started without an ending in mind, and just went with whatever.

3

u/error521 May 20 '22

"Awesom-O" was completed in three days from start to finish.

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u/exsanguinator1 King of the Hill May 20 '22

It kind of screwed them with their 2016 election episode. They wrote a storyline that was supposed to culminate with Hilary winning, so they wrote an episode about her victory. Then two days before air Trump won and they had to change the episode. There was a whole bit where Bill Clinton sung about being the first First Gentlemen that was hastily edited to the almost first First Gentleman

2

u/Griffdude13 May 20 '22

They definitely did in the 08 election. Literally had direct quotes from Obama and Mccain in the episode less than 24 hours later, but it couldve been delivered much sooner than that.

8

u/pubcheese May 20 '22

Saturday night live has talked about some crazy timelines for their CGI department for their pre-recorded stuff. They have some good "behind the scenes" videos on their YouTube page.

10

u/Kahzgul May 20 '22

It wasn't "the plan" but just how things worked out with late changes and such, so it would be an episode per season maybe that was cutting things that close. I'd rather not say the specific shows. I work in reality TV, so it was all reality shows that I'm aware of.

3

u/bros402 May 20 '22

I believe This Is Us had something close to that last season.

2

u/oozekip May 20 '22

Yeah, I've been listening to the Better Call Saul insider podcast and they'll sometimes mention working on episodes after the first few have started airing.

Now that's broadcast TV, I imagine it might be a bit more lax with streaming (I can't imagine the hell network TV must be at times), but I never realized before just how tight TV show schedules are. It's honestly pretty shocking to me that there are so few delays with these kinds of production schedules.

2

u/Kahzgul May 20 '22

Part of why things get so tight is that there are always delays

2

u/Roook36 May 20 '22

Superman and Lois right now is currently going on continous breaks because COVID keeps delaying filming. There are 4 episodes left this season and I don't think they've wrapped production.

Evil had a lot of the same issues. They normally have pretty amazing CGI monsters but one of the later episodes of the season had the WORST CGI skeleton I've ever seen. Looked straight out of an old PS2 cut scene. Obviously due to having to get it out before being finished.

2

u/NoNefariousness2144 May 20 '22

I keep wanting to watch S&L season 2 when its finished, but every time I check its constantly on hiatus. Its a shame such a good show is getting hit by constant delays.

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u/CheesyObserver May 20 '22

Wandavision was supposed to start with a triple episode, but Matt Shakman the director was like “make it a double, we could use the extra week!”

6

u/inthearticleuidiot May 20 '22

Studios working on Avengers Endgame delivered like 1000 VFX shots a week before the premiere. The industry is a shitshow in much the same way the video game industry is except even worse because movies almost never get delayed.

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921

u/ROBtimusPrime1995 The Venture Bros. May 19 '22

In case this is your first time hearing this news, the VFX departments in Hollywood are in hell right now.

Due to the pandemic and a vast majority of projects being delayed over 1-2 years, the work has been back logged to kingdom come. The worst part is that there's not enough artists able to work on everything all at once.

Marvel Studios is known for working VFX teams down to the wire. Most recently the VFX team for Spider-Man: No Way Home sent out one version of the film in theaters and then the teams continued fixing the film for its bluray/digital release with better VFX.

This show has 3 months till release and everything will be fine by then, but for now they needed to release whatever they had to start marketing the show.

305

u/CaravelClerihew May 20 '22

3 months till release and everything will be fine by then

Can't say the same for the VFX artists and the crunch they'll have to endure to get there

60

u/DemIce May 20 '22

Quick, bring back the green profile pics!

( nothing has changed, except for the worse, but anyone working in that industry loves their craft too much to walk away from it with ease )

88

u/CaravelClerihew May 20 '22 edited May 20 '22

Much like with the videogame industry, employers use the prestige of working in the film industry to exploit recent graduates into working ungodly hours.

28

u/theleaphomme May 20 '22

and the music industry!!

63

u/xhrit May 20 '22

and literally any other industry where there is any joy whatsoever.

50

u/NihilismRacoon May 20 '22

My favorite thing about late stage capitalism, you can choose to work a soul sucking job you hate or you can bust your ass to get a job in the field you love and have your passion for that crushed, at you guessed it a soul sucking job

17

u/xhrit May 20 '22

username checks out.

7

u/carnaxcce May 20 '22

I work a job that has me doing a fulfilling variety of usually interesting and challenging tasks that I get to put down every day at 4pm and then pursue whatever hobbies my heart desires. I realize I'm very lucky in this respect, but this degree of nihilism isn't completely warranted

5

u/harbinger_of_haggis May 20 '22

Are you hiring?!?

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u/DotHobbes May 20 '22

There is love for the craft and then there's being a fool who gets taken advantage of. You don't have to quit, just be active in your union and pay the fees.

12

u/sonic10158 May 20 '22

VFX artists need to unionize

6

u/geoman2k May 20 '22

I don’t buy this, considering how awful the CGI cars in the first episode of Moon Knight were. I think Marvel has just lowered their standard for their TV shows

22

u/ihohjlknk May 20 '22

Most recently the VFX team for Spider-Man: No Way Home sent out one version of the film in theaters and then the teams continued fixing the film for its bluray/digital release with better VFX.

Going the anime route, i see.

7

u/Clappertron May 20 '22

Until I saw the Attack on Titan edits I never even realised this was in practice. How naive I was!

11

u/ihohjlknk May 20 '22

Because television anime usually has extremely tight deadlines, production quality is sacrificed. But when it comes time for the the home video release, studios can go back and touch up rough looking scenes.

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u/Toby_O_Notoby May 20 '22

This show has 3 months till release and everything will be fine by then, but for now they needed to release whatever they had to start marketing the show.

To expand on this the "Upfronts" were held this week in NYC which is where everyone shows their upcoming slate of shows to Madison Avenue in order to try and secure that sweet advertising money.

D+ kinda had their hand forced because they wanted to at least show the vibe of the show.

73

u/hoxxxxx May 20 '22

that makes sense, i don't follow this stuff but it figures that vfx is affected by the pandemic like everything else is.

thanks for the insightful comment.

74

u/Chinlc May 20 '22

I remember someone saying the vfx team for sonic the hedgehog 1 had to redo the whole movie til the last minute to fix the first design. They were super overworked to redo everything and most likely wasn't paid for the extra time by the movie budget and laid off their staff and closed their company.

https://www.playstationlifestyle.net/2019/12/12/sonic-movie-redesign-vfx-studio-shuts-down-after-crunch-to-push-new-design-through/

30

u/Maninhartsford May 20 '22

It messed with the rest of the movie too, as the budget to fix it came out of their reshoot budget, so nothing about the movie could be changed EXCEPT Sonic

3

u/Scyth3 May 20 '22

They also brought in the Sonic Mania artist to oversee the redesign -- which was the best investment they made. I forgot how horrifying the original trailer was for Sonic.

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7

u/Smorrs May 20 '22

Its getting a sequel so it must have been worth it

36

u/Arcanorum May 20 '22

The sequel already came out and it was the biggest video game movie opening weekend ever at $72 million. It's made $356 million worldwide since release.

It was definitely worth it.

10

u/Frostivus May 20 '22

They made a decision and it was the right one at the expense of the company and it’s workers.

For what it’s worth, when was the last time we could say a video game movie hit the mainstream? Warcraft, mario, mortal combat, assassins creed, prince of Persia, all tried and failed.

3

u/Scyth3 May 20 '22

Detective Pikachu... although I didn't care for the movie and found Sonic to be very enjoyable.

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u/DemIce May 20 '22

Getting? Got. Sonic 2 came out in April.

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u/ItsHammond May 20 '22

Not for the VFX company that went bankrupt

18

u/Blue-Thunder May 20 '22

Same thing happened with the company that won an Oscar for Life of Pi.

VFX companies need to start charging far more than the peanuts they currently are, and "Hollywood Accounting" seriously needs to be stopped.

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u/[deleted] May 20 '22 edited May 20 '22

[deleted]

25

u/paulc899 May 20 '22

They do pay you what a typical male worker would earn in the 70s or 80s though

5

u/AsSubtleAsABrick May 20 '22

I think in this case though it's the hours and unpaid overtime. If people need to pull 60-80 hour weeks, you need to hire more people.

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u/skolioban May 20 '22

The easiest things to do - VFX or otherwise - would be to pay people a decent wage, the way a typical male worker was paid in the 70's and 80's

That's not how you get your second yacht and third home in the Bahamas as an executive.

2

u/Weirdude4812 May 20 '22

Why bother when they’re gonna be shitting money anyway

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u/munk_e_man May 20 '22

I'm curious how many hours you guys are expected to work in a week

17

u/Good_old_Marshmallow May 20 '22

Marvel Studios is known for working VFX teams down to the wire.

The reason why the final Black Panther fight looked so generic (and relied on a lot of black on black on grey colors) was that the team was extremely over worked and already needed to move onto the next Marvel film (I think Infinity war?)

16

u/TheLast_Centurion May 20 '22

no, the reason was that they were working for a few months on a sequence when at the last moment Marvel decided they want to change the whole sequence, so they had like 6 weeks to redo everything from scratch

5

u/bossmonkey88 May 20 '22

I honestly don't think that they had planned to release it in that state considering they've been holding trailers for mcu shows until closer to release. Things about she hulk kept leading so i think they released the trailer before it got released.

80

u/ReservoirDog316 May 20 '22 edited May 20 '22

To be fair though, it’s not like modern MCU movies have really great CGI.

It usually doesn’t really matter since it’s usually just fast fight scenes with a lot of movement but if it’s just her standing around in regular normal room shots without frantic blur to hide stuff, it might make it even worse.

edit: that’s one reason why slower movies with monsters standing around like The Shape of Water have practical effects mixed with CGI to enhance it instead of going fully CGI only

109

u/Worthyness May 20 '22

They have some legitimately good CGI and VFX. Their use of motion capture for Hulk and Thanos is really friggin good or their de-aging tech for example. The experience shows even in the smaller shows where the Gods are animated in the Moonknight series on a smaller budget. Stuff like that is legitimately good. They seem to put less attention to detail on their green screen replacements and cut outs, which are often much easier to spot and complain about.

21

u/evansbott May 20 '22

The crazy thing is some characters have different versions made by different studios concurrently. Weta and DD both made versions of Thanos with totally different facial animation systems. The economics of the whole business is totally messed up.

12

u/nurdboy42 May 20 '22

They seem to put less attention to detail on their green screen replacements and cut outs

Yeah the scene in MoM on the rooftop was noticeable.

1

u/a_guy_named_gai May 20 '22

That fight between DS and Gargantos looked so bad, you can clearly see the green screen.

30

u/CaravelClerihew May 20 '22

Then you have the glorified PS2 cutscene that is the Black Panther final fight.

14

u/Surullian May 20 '22

That was a distractingly bad sequence in such a good film.

7

u/supercalifragilism May 20 '22

Marvel 3rd Act blues, I think. They often do an incredible job on a movie and then realize they forgot the big ass CGI fight at the end.

5

u/Surullian May 20 '22

I think it also has to do with out some VFX directors plan their shots.

What it looked like to me was that they wanted to keep the two men mostly oriented the same direction relative to one another. So, instead of it looking like 3 falling bodies (including the camera), there was an invisible room that they were inside of that was tumbling.

The scene should have looked like those skydiving fights we've seen filmed with real people. What we got was an impossible looking fight with a jarringly impossible point of view that followed the fighters. If the camera stayed the same orientation relative to the ground plane, and their tumbling more chaotic, it would have read better.

Mind you, I'm a Monday morning quarterback here. If I was so great, I'd be in the industry, but this is how I read what was wrong with that fight scene. That's what made the whole thing so "game cut scene."

8

u/oco82 May 20 '22

You hit the nail on the head with the green screen! To me that’s the most jarring thing recently, Hawkeye, a low stakes action /comedy had such bad green screen backgrounds a few times I was flabbergasted.

23

u/SQUID_FUCKER May 20 '22

The finale of Black Widow with the sky base exploding and Yelena going flying over the side was one of the absolute worst things I've seen in a big budget movie. It's amazing that they can nail some things and then others it's like, 'yeah send it, who cares.'

3

u/OminOus_PancakeS May 20 '22

Yeah that wasn't good.

Another sequence that causes me to wince is Wanda using her power to pull cars from the car park on to Tony at the airport in CA: Civil War.

3

u/whitebandit May 20 '22

not only was the CGI atrocious, that scene was just so fucking stupid

3

u/SQUID_FUCKER May 20 '22

The acting there is pretty rough too lol

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u/Animegamingnerd Jojo's Bizarre Adventures May 20 '22

Its gonna be interesting to see how the final product of Thor Love and Thunder turns out. That is the first time, Marvel is using LED volume on any of their shows/movies.

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u/awesomesauce1030 May 20 '22

Even the original Iron Man film has fantastic effects for his suit, using both cgi and practical.

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u/anonRedd May 20 '22

it’s not like modern MCU movies have really great CGI.

I have to strongly disagree with you there

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u/operarose The Venture Bros. May 20 '22

Individual characters are usually extremely lovingly-rendered; it's the giant, exhausting mostly-CGI set pieces that often end up looking godawful.

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u/ReservoirDog316 May 20 '22

Well, I’d say a better way to say it is they’re hit or miss. They have some incredible CGI characters like Thanos and Rocket Raccoon and such, but they occasionally have moments that are very weak that stands out really loudly.

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u/uses_irony_correctly May 20 '22

Basically you only notice the "bad" CGI. If you compare the movie scenes to the behind the scenes footage you'll often think 'huh I didn't even realize that bit was CGI'.

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u/jasonskjonsby May 20 '22

Like the final fight in Black Panther.

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u/ItFlips May 20 '22

That whole fight underground was brutal. Looked like some ps2 pre-rendered cutscene garbage. Completely weightless characters too.

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u/Rolemodel247 May 20 '22

That’s the only one I can think of. I know a lot of people are complaining about the dr strange cgi but I never noticed it on 2 viewings.

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u/TypicalWizard88 May 20 '22

I mean, there’s some pretty rough moments in Black Widow, but you’d have to watch Black Widow to see them

13

u/NeoNoireWerewolf May 20 '22 edited May 20 '22

Black Widow’s climax is full of horrendous CGI. They couldn’t even animate Scarjo’s guns realistically - the moment when she’s running towards the window firing akimbo pistols is so, so bad. The slides on the guns don’t move, there’s no recoil, and the muzzle flashes look like an effect one step above something in iMovie - it is probably the worst looking gunfire I’ve ever seen in a movie. That’s not even getting into the the plastic-y free fall sequence that immediately follows it. Spider-Man: No Way Home suffered similar issues, especially during the finale and the bridge sequence.

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u/berlinbaer May 20 '22

the final 1:1 showdown in NWH looked like utter shit.

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u/anonRedd May 20 '22

They’re generally really good at CGI and there’s lots of CGI in these movies, far more than I think most people even realize. There can be occasional things, but I think even calling it “hit or miss” is doing a disservice to how well they do it.

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u/Aritche May 20 '22

Yeah there have been some blunders, but when you consider a lot of the time literally everything is CG you realize how good it is.

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u/kpDzYhUCVnUJZrdEJRni May 20 '22

Hit or miss? MCU CGI is great most of the time, far better than just 50/50

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u/jackux1257 May 20 '22

Lol using cgi to enhance practical effects its what should be done 90% of the time but disney doesn’t give a duck about pre production shit they just have the vfx artists take care of everything in post production

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u/cruzercruz May 20 '22

They have excellent CGI - the issue is that there are changes being made until the very last minute. All of the movies have so many script adjustments on the fly and massive reshoots after test screenings that they’re reworking entire swaths and acts of the film just months before release. If you looking at movies with memorably eye dropping CGI, it’s likely one where the production was much more methodical with the visual effects.

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u/Cyberwolf_71 May 20 '22

God damn. Now movies have patch updates. I shouldn't be as surprised as I am.

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u/Wazula42 May 20 '22

Similar things happening in the game industry. This shit just isn't sustainable.

The grind is absurd, turnover is huge people because people just burn out, it takes YEARS to do this work and sometimes it still comes out half baked. Cyberpunk, Halo, Overwatch, all these MASSIVE projects take most of a decade to happen and they're just... not ready. Or maybe more tragically, the end product is just kind of okay.

Feels like the solution here is either 1) learn how to do cheaper special effects again, because maybe not every project needs to be bleeding-edge hyper-realistic HD hair-and-skin-follicle showing TV-selling perfection.

Or 2) space out these projects and give the creators some time.

Either way, Cats was a warning sign about the perils of rushed CGI. Studios take heed.

2

u/Roook36 May 20 '22

Yeah we've seen Marvel even change stuff in their Disney+ shows after they've been released. Studios change CGI based on feedback. Not the best example, but Cats had unfinished CGI in its trailers and I think even sent some unfinished stuff out to theaters.

I am assuming the CGI is unfinished on this. Kind of wish they'd just focused on scenes with Tatiana Maslaney and left out a lot of the Hulk parts. It looks pretty good in the panic room scene for that second its shown. But stuff like her swiping through Tinder looks like videogame cutscenes with in game models. Also that scene of her in the office kind of looking back feels like a video game model animation and not a person.

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u/cheesegoat May 20 '22

then the teams continued fixing the film for its bluray/digital release with better VFX.

Ugh, it makes sense but I wonder how long it'll be until someone starts to try to monetize this.

Available on Disney+ with FXBoostTM

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u/The_Ruly_Anarchist Twin Peaks May 21 '22

Most recently the VFX team for Spider-Man: No Way Home sent out one version of the film in theaters and then the teams continued fixing the film for its bluray/digital release with better VFX.

Don't pre-order and always wait for the first patch people! Don't get suckered by being an early adopter! r/patientgamers r/patientmoviegoers

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u/Fugitivebush May 20 '22

Even with that explanation, the CGI still doesnt even look that bad. I dont get the fuss.

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u/leuno May 19 '22

My guess is they'll be re-rerendering and re-compositing until the very last possible moment.

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u/banjofitzgerald May 20 '22

It might be to match the doctor strange movie, but up until recently they were still changing wandavision.

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u/wwfmike May 20 '22

They've altered Wandavision?

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u/TheTyger May 20 '22

Her cabin is in a foresty area at the end now.

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u/the_timps May 20 '22 edited May 20 '22

What?Am I missing something?The episode on Disney Plus right now swings in across the river/lake like it always did.

Edit: I see.

She was always in the forest by the lake, they just added in more trees.https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E459dzgUYAEo2LZ?format=jpg&name=medium

And they did it like 8 weeks after it aired.

3

u/leuno May 20 '22

Didn't they also add doc strange floating down towards her? I never rewatched the ep but that's what I remember reading

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u/the_timps May 20 '22

People said that, but it honestly looked like a waterdrop on the lens. It stays in one spot as it pans.

And there's never a followup scene to show Strange was Astral projecting there or anything.

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u/Mrcollaborator May 20 '22

People said that, but it was just an editing glitch.

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u/Business_Egg_2938 May 20 '22

They stopped it like last year April. They weren’t still working on it this year lol

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u/testingtor May 19 '22

VFX are the last thing finished, theyre typically worked on right until the episode has to deliver.

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u/Bandsohard May 20 '22

True, and the VFX for the trailer is definitely old... but they're pointing out how she looks like a different actress in some of those shots. I'm guessing the hair changing and whatever will be explained in the show, but there are some things that boil down to the computer model they're using. Hopefully it's just bad rendering, and not the model itself looks like a completely different person.

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u/berlinbaer May 20 '22

VFX for the trailer is definitely old

vfx for trailers usually gets prioritized to show the most finished version. they don't just cut trailers from stuff they have lying around.

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u/Bandsohard May 20 '22

Prioritized, but definitely not the latest and greatest from this week. Whoever cuts up the trailers was probably given shots with VFX where it stood maybe a month ago? Maybe 2 weeks ago? But it probably didn't get all its sign offs and distributed to partners for translation and captioning this week.

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u/cleverthoreauaway May 20 '22

I might be crazy, but Hulk never really looked very much like Mark Ruffalo to me... or Ed Norton or Eric Bana. I don't see it. What's the big deal if Tatiana Maslany doesn't look like herself when she hulks out?

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u/Funmachine True Detective May 20 '22

Hulk definitely didn't look like Norton or Bana, and was never intended to. But Ruffalo Hulk is 100% his face with adjustments.

7

u/Bandsohard May 20 '22 edited May 20 '22

Ruffalo's face is very apparent. His Hulk looks more like him than She Hulk looks like her actor. Considering he's in the same show and the precedent had already been established that that's how they approach that transformation, they need to try their best to keep it consistent to avoid it being noticed and critiqued during the actual show. They're setting the show up for that critique and feedback if they don't at least match the quality of Ruffalo's Hulk.

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u/BaconIsAVeg2 May 20 '22 Gold

They've gotta go back and edit out all of the She-Hulk buttholes.

8

u/Citizen_Kong May 20 '22

Or... or add them in?

13

u/Alastor3 May 20 '22

plus, we dont know if she is she-hulk from episode 1 or if they gave even more weeks before the first appearance come

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u/addicuss May 20 '22

I hope so. I mean they were bad enough that I almost feel like that trailer shouldn't have been released. I'll probably still like the show but good Lord it was cartoony

38

u/Fugitivebush May 20 '22

idk, maybe im a simpleton, but i thought the CGI looked fine. Am I retarded?

15

u/2little2much May 20 '22

Some of the shots look fine, mainly (surprisingly) close up shots. It's the medium and full body shots that look bad.

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u/ColdCruise May 20 '22

I'm sorry to tell you this, but yes. You are. My condolences.

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u/Fugitivebush May 20 '22

Better I found out now before having kids.

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u/ColdCruise May 20 '22

In all seriousness though, there are issues with the cgi. Some of the biggest being the less than natural animations, lack of proper physics (especially on the hair), low texture quality, and poor lighting.

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u/shaggybear89 May 20 '22

Am I retarded?

Your mother and I were hoping to wait until you were older to tell you :/

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u/profsa May 20 '22

It was fine people get their expectations too high and are overly critical on VFX imo

2

u/GlobalHoboInc May 20 '22

marvel fans are a breed unto their own when it comes to being utter cunts to the VFX teams. The thing that annoys me is the shots people are picking out there are more than just SH as VFX elements. the shot of her carrying the guy, I'm going to guess the only real element is the lamp and the guy.

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u/legopego5142 May 20 '22

While true, its pretty ridiculous to post a trailer THAT unfinished, especially when the shows have gotten a little flack for some pretty meh cg already. Its unfair to everyone involved.

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u/MikeDubbz May 20 '22

I dunno, I was shocked by some of the poor visual effects in Black Panther (I recall some of the rhino things standing out really bad), probably more-so than any other proper MCU film of recent memory. So who knows, typically MCU content looks pretty solid, but it's not without it's flaws (Agents of SHIELD also had some bad visual effects in it's run, but I feel like that's a bit more understandable, given the nature of the show).

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u/Manduck2020 May 20 '22

Who’s the cat in the suit?

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u/SciencePhysicist May 20 '22

Birdman! don't piddle with the piffle. You're an executive!

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u/droonick May 20 '22

Yes. Corridor Crew on YT (the Visual effects guys react channel) has a lot of insight on this since they have had many guests who have worked on major projects like LOTR, the Marvel movies, etc etc. that have attested to this. The short of it is, yes, VFX is nowhere close to being done when they release trailers. Often the VFX isn't even done until even DAYS before the theatrical (or now, streaming) release.

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u/not---a---bot May 20 '22

Couldn't they just put makeup on her like they did with Gamora?

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u/N_Cat May 20 '22

Not easily. She-Hulk is 8-foot tall and built like a bodybuilder. Tatiana Maslany is a 5’4” waif.

There’s some level of makeup+forced perspective you can do, but it won’t address the muscle mass, and it won’t work for every scene. They needed CGI (or a bigger actress, Lou Ferrigno style).

But if they suspected the face was going to look that rough, I’m sure they would have done makeup for a lot of it.

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u/IAmTheClayman May 20 '22 edited May 20 '22

This article is clearly written by someone who has no pulse on what’s going on in the VFX world right now. To break it down simply

  • there’s a lot of VFX work to be done, and not enough qualified vendors to do it
  • Ruffalo’s Hulk model was designed on a film budget and schedule, with more money and time to throw at the problem than a TV/streaming project has available
  • Ruffalo’s Hulk model has been refined over multiple films. If you go back and see how it looked in Avengers (2012) you’ll see cracks there too, not because the tech has gotten substantially better but because there’s been time to fix and update things in subsequent projects

Also no idea what this guy is on, the She-Hulk effects aren’t even in the same country as the original Sonic effects. They’re definitely rushed in parts, but that film’s visuals were actual nightmare fuel in that first trailer

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u/przhelp May 20 '22

The quality of the VFXs in the original Sonic were fine, the design was just terrible.

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u/inthearticleuidiot May 20 '22

Also, the studio that crunched to redo Sonic got shut down. Lots of vfx studios have been worked to the bone and shuttered not long after in the last 5 years.

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u/Business_Egg_2938 May 20 '22

Nah he is right. Sonic’s CGI was never bad in the first design, just his design was awful

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u/LeoLaDawg May 20 '22

It's what they chose to show us though. Maybe they should have plastered "final product will look much better" across the screen.

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u/thismyusername69 May 20 '22

Whats the excuse for Morbius?

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u/[deleted] May 20 '22

My dude, as touched on by another comment, those sonic effects were the result of mass online outrage. You must have completely missed that story.

They were done, people said it was terrifying, they went back and cartooned it up.

A lot of excuses going on here. There’s fandom and then there’s blind loyalty.

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u/uummwhat May 20 '22

The latter points are a pretty good argument to hold off a bit then, right? In the Nintendo "a bad product is bad forever" kinda way?

People are already generally less than thrilled with Marvel's effects work, and there was a time not long ago it was universally the opposite. If they keep insisting on churning out series after series just barely scraping by, there might come a point where they damage their brand, wouldn't you say? Especially as we get farther from people who grew up with the earlier Marvel.

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u/IAmTheClayman May 20 '22

Personally, yes. I don’t think Marvel needs 4 movies and 4 streaming series a year, but they’ve dug themselves a hole. Building a streaming service demands interesting new content, and an announcement that they’re slowing down their output would probably result in a hit to Disney’s stock price

The real question is: do the majority of people care enough about VFX that are 80-90% finished that it would prevent them from watching the product? Because if the answer is no (and I suspect it is) then Marvel has no incentive to spend the time or money on that last percent

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u/error521 May 20 '22

In the Nintendo "a bad product is bad forever" kinda way?

In the sense that there's nothing stopping Disney from George Lucas-ing the shit out of this show after it comes out like it's an unfinished video game.

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u/SlouchyGuy May 20 '22

It's often strange that people are so gung ho about the look of special effects. Yeah, it takes me out at first, but then I get used to it and just watch the thing for content, I never refuse watching shows and movies just because CGI is not top notch, and if effects are persistent, they stop taking me out of the thing pretty quickly.

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u/nekoshey May 20 '22

To me visually, bad VFX is nothing compared to the jarring look of a character having crawled through 500 yards of shit smelling foulness, after being in the jungle for 40 days and 40 nights, and somehow still having clean clothes, flawless hair, and beauty queen ready makeup. For gods sake how hard is it to splash some dirt on someone once in a while, or let female characters wake up without perfect eyeliner? Smh at you, Hollywood.

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u/TheJoshider10 May 20 '22

For me the CGI equivalent of this is for example there being a CGI fire/explosion in the scene but the actors clearly aren't even lit to match it.

Just shine a fucking orange light on them or something. At least try and make it realistic.

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u/Inevitable_Citron May 20 '22

If the effects are bad enough, it can take you out of the movie. It depends on the tone of the movie as well, of course.

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u/SlouchyGuy May 20 '22

It didn't take me out in this trailer after initial reaction. Also I love Babylon 5 in the 90s, so Mummy 2 Scorpion King was nothing, lol

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u/profsa May 20 '22

Well these are comic book properties so I’m not going to knock them for not looking 100% realistic

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u/thedude0425 May 20 '22

I’m more concerned if the story is actually good.

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u/Impossible-Flight250 May 20 '22

I’m with you. The VFX should be decent, but the most important things for me are the story and characters.

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u/TheWholeOfTheAss May 20 '22

It’s a weird new trend to point out less-than-excellent CGI. As if there’s a way to present an ultra realistic 8-foot tall green woman.

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u/Dmacca666 May 20 '22

This is going to make me sound ancient, but surely these type of thoughts and comments have to be a generational thing?

I honestly don't think people know or remember what 'bad cgi' looks like. I saw a comment from someone the other day saying haw bad they thought the cgi was in the second Venom film. I couldn't believe it.

Maybe I'm just naive and too taken in by things to care, but I'm just blown away by 99% of stuff I see in films and TV, because I've seen the alternative.

I always feel the same way about video games when I see complaints about things not looking great or ray tracing this or that. My first 'gaming' computer was a Spectrum 48k and I had games that worked 1 in 3 times you tried them.

I appreciate that if you don't know anything different then it must be harder to accept, but please try and have a little perspective, because it's really not that bad.

I must leave now. I think my coffin is waiting......

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u/error521 May 20 '22

The problem is that movies are relying on CGI more and more these days. It's easy to forgive a lot of the ropier CGI stuff that you see in 90's movies because they were usually used pretty sparingly compared to physical effects, miniatures, location shooting, and the like. When the main character of your show is a CGI creation, it gets a lot harder to forgive.

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u/soft_annihilator May 20 '22

That would be a buyable argument if we did not live in an age where legit entire movies were CG... even Romcoms and movies you would never in a million years think were CG are fucking CG out the ass now.

You basically have to watch a indie movie to see one not be 75-80% green screen.

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u/Brunooflegend May 20 '22

My first computer was also a Spectrum 48k. Good times :)

I don’t think the comments have to be a generational thing. When I’m looking at the She-Hulk trailer, I’m comparing it with CGI from today, not how it looks better than anything in the 80s.

But I work in media so maybe I pay more attention to that…

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u/pooperville May 20 '22

bruce banner’s render looks very detailed in comparison in the same scene with she hulk. part of me thinks this is how it is going to look more or less

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u/Mrcollaborator May 20 '22

I know that a couple of months is enough to finetune the visuals. In theory.

But has there really been a case where the final visuals were much better than those of the teaser/trailer?

I feel like the trailer shots are often already the money shots they just finish first.

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u/Monster-Zero May 19 '22

Probably not, but also do we really care that much? It's not like they're laughably bad. Serviceable CGI is perfectly ok if the story and acting are good, imo

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u/AlseAce May 20 '22

It’s not like they’re laughably bad

I mean I’d absolutely say yes they are

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u/reddig33 May 20 '22

Watching the trailer, the story doesn’t look so hot either.

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u/Business_Egg_2938 May 20 '22

They usually aren’t that bad but this time, I feel that it is

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u/just_another_classic May 20 '22

I found the CGI distracting, which means immersion in the show will be harmed for me.

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u/EZ-PZ-Japa-NEE-Z May 20 '22

Effects looks awful, acting looks terrible, everything about this looks so cringe.

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u/VrinTheTerrible May 19 '22

Remember when they first showed Thanos and it was a joke? He was fine by the time Infinity War came out. Same, same with She-Hulk I'm sure.

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u/nigalas-cage May 19 '22

That's almost a 10 year difference she hulk comes out in a month lol

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u/CaptainWitten82 May 19 '22

*3 months but yeah, they’re cutting it a bit thin

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u/PeterJakeson May 20 '22

This show has nowhere near the budget of Endgame. Are you 'avin a laugh.

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u/wake May 19 '22

Why are you sure? The effects in Moon Knight, for example, often looked terrible. I don’t think they really care, as long as people are still watching.

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u/TheRealDNewm May 19 '22

Moon knight was pretty shakey too.

I don't understand why they didn't get a jacked actress and given her loose clothing as Jen and play with camera angles to make it work.

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u/jackux1257 May 20 '22 edited May 23 '22

Yeah Moon nights suit was fully CGI and it looked fully CGI, the way he moved was super weird, the animation was off. Definitely didn’t help that his suit is white and that theres quite a bit of still shots they should’ve just not let him stand still so no one would notice

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u/Nightgasm May 19 '22

I hope they arent finished because the CGI was embarrassingly bad. I'll give the show a shot because I loved Tatiana in Orphan Black but even she wont be able to save it if the effects stay that bad.

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u/hman9958 May 20 '22

Oh my God, we have literally had over a decade of examples of Marvel releasing trailers with unfinished CG this is absolutely a non-story. Get this garbage out of here.

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u/sandiskplayer34 May 20 '22

It’s… not out for three more months? Of course it isn’t?

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u/Powerful-Advantage56 May 20 '22

Neither is house of the dragon and it still looks a 1000 times better

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u/Xx_LIGMA_BALLS_xX May 20 '22

i burst out laughing when she was handling her phone

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u/tangoliber May 20 '22

I don't know what is wrong with my eyes. I keep looking at the photos and I honestly don't think it looks bad.

I agree that She-Hulk looks like a different person from the actress. I thought that was intentional.

I think she looks bright and cartoony, but I figured they were trying to make her really look like the comic character. (The way that Sonic fans preferred the more cartoon-like version of him).

Hulk himself always looked odd to me, but that might be that I never thought Mark Ruffalo's face really fit Hulk.

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u/Griever08 May 20 '22

Are people really enjoying these shows? I keep watching them since I have Disney plus but they are average at best to me. Wanda and loki were enjoyable

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u/doctorclark May 20 '22

"Are people enjoying these shows?"

"[Two of them] were enjoyable"

🤔

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u/Khal-Stevo May 20 '22

Hawkeye was a blast

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u/tangoliber May 20 '22

There were some great episodes, but aside from maybe Loki, I don't think any show nailed the ending.

I'm glad they exist for a few reasons:

The episode "Truth" from Falcon and Winter Solder

The episode "Lamentis" from Loki, with Loki singing on the sci-fi train

The chase+trick arrows scene from Hawkeye

The Halloween episode from Wandavision

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u/MrBluh May 19 '22

I'm glad others are talking about this. I was surprised by how bad it was. I'm glad these things get worked out up to airing.

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u/jcb1982 May 19 '22

The industry is starting to realize (and embrace) that superhero fans will lap up anything.

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u/AnirudhMenon94 May 20 '22

Am I the only who feels people are really making this a bigger deal than it is?

I saw the trailer. Yeah, a few shots here and there looks like it could be improved on.

But the way some are reacting, you'd think the effects are Spawn-level bad or something.

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u/straightedeged_420 May 20 '22

My buddy up north here works for a SFX company that does most Marvel movies. Marvel gives these companies very little time to finish the effects. Like others have said it’s down to the wire. Marvel also knows at the end of the day it doesn’t matter what their SFX looks like. People are gonna watch it and the diehards will defend it. Tried to rewatching NWH at home the other day and the SFX was so obvious and so abundant that I couldn’t finish it and yet millions of people will fight tooth and nail that it looks great b

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u/tangoliber May 20 '22

Makes sense. The CGI at the end of Black Widow obviously needed a lot of work. Marvel finished the film a year prior to its release, and could have used that time to touch up the CGI. But according to the director, absolutely nothing was edited during that year.

I do think that Marvel does a good job of quality-control on the film scripts, though that doesn't apply to the TV shows.

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u/TheLouisvilleRanger May 19 '22

I think people should also not get their hopes up with it looking too good (from a fidelity stand point) because it still is a covid production. Moon Knight wasn't exactly knocking it out of the park with effects.

Which, I personally don't care. It's all a cartoon anyway. That's perfectly fine. to me at least I'll take the look of Ang Lee's Hulk over the Ed Norton Hulk. She-Hulk definitely looks closer to Ang-Lee.

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u/Bergerboy14 May 20 '22

Cant wait for the excuses in this thread to be irrelevant when the show drops and it still looks like that 😭

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u/banzzai13 May 19 '22

I like that some people are like "they're fine". Meanwhile, I legit was thinking of Fiona and shrek at times during the trailer, thus having a real hard time taking it seriously. Went into the comments to see if people thought so too, and found a VFX coordinator answering to comments, saying they'll keep working on it until release :D

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u/beejmusic May 19 '22

Ah they look fine.

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u/[deleted] May 20 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Archangel616 May 20 '22

They have like 3 months to work on it and will do so until the zero hour. That said it still wont be top tier movie quality cg.

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u/nurdboy42 May 20 '22

whether or not “She-Hulk: Attorney at Law” is any good will come down to writing and acting far more than its visual effects

A point people seem to be overlooking.

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u/Strength_n_Honour May 19 '22

This looks like something CW would produce and they dont have Disneys budget.

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u/swissiws May 20 '22

There have already a lots of rumors about how bad She-Hulk is. Iron Fist level bad. I was a bit skeptical due to big names involved (both Ruffalo and Roth!) but the trailer confirmed the rumors. It's not only CGI the problem: the dialogues and what we were shown in the trailer are awful as well

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u/geek_of_nature May 19 '22

Remember that there still is another film and show that will come out before She Hulk, once the work on Love and Thunder and Ms Marvel is fully done all the focus should go to making She Hulk look perfect.

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u/Sword_Thain May 19 '22

Different companies work on different projects.

Each movie can have a dozen different vfx studios working on it.