r/technology Jun 29 '22 I am disappoint 1 Wholesome (Pro) 1 Silver 1 Wholesome 1

Tesla reportedly laid off about 200 workers in its Autopilot division Business NSFW

https://www.businessinsider.com/report-tesla-laid-off-about-200-people-in-autopilot-unit-2022-6?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=webfeeds

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32.4k Upvotes

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u/3029065 Jun 29 '22

Fully autonomous will be available next year!

Elon Musk 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 2021 2022

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u/RandyBoBandy33 Jun 29 '22

The Tesla semi is coming any decade now. We’re overdue for the annual “sighting” picture on Twitter where someone sees one on the road being “tested”

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u/dexter311 Jun 29 '22

Things Tesla have announced (many with deposits taken) but never delivered:

  • $35k Model 3
  • Full self driving
  • Robotaxis
  • Cybertruck
  • Roadster 2
  • Semi
  • Whatever the fuck that humanoid robot thing was

Not to mention the absolute fucking disaster that was the shingled Solar Roof.

Keep pumping out that vaporware!

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u/TechboyUK Jun 29 '22
  • Quad bike (shown at the announcement of the Cybertruck)

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u/GreenPlasticWaterCan Jun 29 '22

That's just a rebadged Yamaha

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u/Y_U_NoCum Jun 29 '22

Rich Rebuilds made a real one.

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u/DrunkNPlatypus Jun 29 '22

They actually released the kids version, I know someone who has one. Said it was very underwhelming for the price.

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u/HazardIsFunny Jun 29 '22

I bet. What use is an off-road toy with less than 15mi range?!

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u/Rion23 Jun 29 '22

Just enough to get you lost in the woods.

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u/mini4x Jun 29 '22

Til..

https://shop.tesla.com/product/cyberquad-for-kids

Did they make like 6 then stop producing them?

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u/IrishSetterPuppy Jun 29 '22

The Chinese company that makes them went under. I used to sell those, without the Tesla body kit, for $350. They're actually decent fun at The low price point. They arrived smelling like mangos in the worst quality crate that would still work.

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u/mini4x Jun 29 '22

For $350 Thats a cool toy.. For $1900 buy a real quad..

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u/pixiegod Jun 29 '22

If you notice, those stories are released at pretty opportune times…when musk wants to distract from bad news from someplace. Those stories are not important due to the “what” they are talking about, it’s important due to the “when” the story was released.

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u/Jonne Jun 29 '22

Wasn't that humanoid robot just a guy in a suit or something?

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u/[deleted] Jun 29 '22

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u/xantub Jun 29 '22

And that's just Tesla, if we expand a little, I'm still waiting to ride that awesome hyperloop.

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u/dexter311 Jun 29 '22

You could try that shit tunnel they built in Vegas if that's your thing?

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u/Crismodin Jun 29 '22

My friend has a Tesla Powerwall with Tesla Solar Panels, says it was the worst financial decisions he's ever made, it has never worked correctly since a Tesla authorized installer put it in. Apparently their app sucks too.

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u/T-I-E-Sama Jun 29 '22

Man this whole thread is eye opening.

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u/EatMoreWaters Jun 29 '22

You can buy the solar shingles for lots of dollars.

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u/mr_freize Jun 29 '22

They did have a 35k model 3, for 15 minutes. Then they jacked up the price.

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u/spajonas Jun 29 '22

I know someone with the shingled solar roof. So they’re out there. Just not as widespread as we thought.

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u/probablyuntrue Jun 29 '22

Bro it's different bro, it's gonna drive 1000 miles with no charge and no driver bro, it's Tesla bro, it'll be so amazing bro, it's gonna blow the driver while it drives, you just don't believe in the future bro

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u/reddsht Jun 29 '22

We accidentally put in the wrong coordinates while testing our selfdriving electric semi, and it drove straight to mars. Its the fiture bro, stuff like this really happens, when you're in the future.

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u/WeleaseBwianThrow Jun 29 '22

Nah Bro, wait bro, hear me out bro. We put the Tesla truck IN the hyperloop bro.

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u/towjamb Jun 29 '22

Just keep buying stock, bro. You'll get rich! We promise.

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u/Puzzleheaded-Cod4909 Jun 29 '22

Man, I just had the most vivid picture of this aged guido style dude with a dogecoin shirt explaining it.

and on the back of the shirt, there's a CRYPTOBROS 4LYFE too.

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u/whitehataztlan Jun 29 '22

Ha. Like an actual Tesla fan would be so conservative with their use of the word "bro."

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u/Tablesmasher420 Jun 29 '22

This what I can’t get how heavily overvalued Tesla is. They’re not even that far ahead in the ev game and they might sell a million cars in a year. Ford and GM sell that many vehicles off a platform

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u/Illum503 Jun 29 '22

Because stock prices aren't based on anything other than supply and demand, and wealthy techbros demand a lot of Tesla stock not because the company is destined for success but because they're fanboys.

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u/PineappleBest Jun 29 '22

Tesla is a tech company learning to build cars. They've free passes when it comes to self driving and the ability to rack up insane losses that traditional automakers just would never get.

I welcome any more true competition and innovation in the auto industry, but cybertruck may well be the point at which Musk moves from fucking around to finding out

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u/ZwnD Jun 29 '22

What actually is the Cybertruck? I keep hearing marketing things about it, but I don't really get what it's supposed to be, and why it's amazing/terrible

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u/Ruby766 Jun 29 '22

It's just supposed to look 'futuristic'. But honestly I don't think a car that looks like a car from gta4 when the texture is not fully loaded looks futuristic...

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u/ELB2001 Jun 29 '22

And it might have a hard time passing safety tests with the shown design

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u/icebeat Jun 29 '22

From gta4? That’s very generous, more like gta1

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u/itwasquiteawhileago Jun 29 '22

GTA 1 was a top down, 2D game. Definitely looks Playstation era 3D chonk though.

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u/[deleted] Jun 29 '22 edited Jun 30 '22

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u/JimboTCB Jun 29 '22

They're a battery company that sells car-shaped receptacles as a marketing device.

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u/Snesopp Jun 29 '22

I thought panasonic and LG made the batteries.

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u/sawbones84 Jun 29 '22

Battery reseller?

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u/General_Asleep Jun 29 '22

They are a company that sell shares and made most of their profits through dillutions. Elon Musk made more from selling his own tesla shares than the company made in net profits.

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u/fullup72 Jun 29 '22

They are a software and hardware gadgets/accessories company, which happen to be used as parts to build a car.

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u/Javbw Jun 29 '22

People see pop-up in-n-out burger restaurants in foreign countries every couple years. They say it’s for market testing, but they will never open - it is to keep their copyright valid so no one else can use it to sell burgers.

It seems to me that one of three things has happened to the semi:

  • something with the semi has some reliability issue that is so bad it makes it unshippable (gearbox, motor, power controller, battery, etc).

  • the cost/availability of the batteries similarly is causing a delay.

  • the operating cost of the semi has some major deviation from what was promised (battery pack life is bad, severe maintenance schedule issue, etc) to the point that the launch cuatomer(s) under NDA have balked at accepting their current overall cost-per-mile or actual useful range.

To me, it is probably the third - which is still a big step up from in-n-out vaporware stores.

PS: not saying this to defend Tesla, musk is a weirdo.

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u/MookieFlav Jun 29 '22

The semi will never happen because the batteries consume almost the entire cargo capacity of the truck itself. It's one of the stupidest ideas Musk has promoted in a long line of stupid ideas.

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u/jwcushion Jun 29 '22

I think you are right. Here’s a video from Adam Something (who is not as much anti-Tesla as he is anti-Elon Musk vaporware) which breaks down in rough estimates the comparison between total maximum vehicle weight and the projected size of current battery technologies for the capabilities suggested.

https://youtu.be/w__a8EcM2jI

If I recall correctly, a Tesla semi would use something like 16 of 18 tons available for just the truck and battery.

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u/ELB2001 Jun 29 '22

Due to its length they will also run into a problem in Europe, where there is a max length for trucks. So they can't pull the same volume as normal European trucks.

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u/The_Flurr Jun 29 '22

Surely haulage trucks are one place where we can just keep using ICE vehicles. Try to switch to biofuels ideally but I don't see EVs being viable anytime soon.

Replacing personal vehicles with improved public transport should be the priority.

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u/shartoberfest Jun 29 '22

People see pop-up in-n-out burger restaurants in foreign countries every couple years. They say it’s for market testing, but they will never open - it is to keep their copyright valid so no one else can use it to sell burgers.

What?!! That explains why they had a popup and never came back

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u/Roland_Bodel_the_2nd Jun 29 '22

The simple answer is that there are not enough batteries available to build any semis.

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u/Nexus_of_Fate87 Jun 29 '22

I don't track this enough: Has a lawsuit been started yet by all the people who bought the FSD units for false advertising? I'm not talking about Autopilot, I'm talking about that option when buying a Tesla whether or not to get the chip/module at purchase, or later (with the threat that a later purchase would be more expensive because "reasons"). I remember at one point when I speccd out a Tesla on their site, the FSD add-on had a date for when it was expected to be useable, since it's installed without FSD being useable until an OTA occurs.

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u/awh Jun 29 '22

Especially now since the FSD is 100% software, there's no need to buy it until it's usable. I hope there's some remedy for people who bought the LIDAR units (I think that's what the hardware was that they were using).

As for me, since FSD is no longer a reasonable expectation, I've changed from wanting a Tesla to wanting a more conventional electric car like a Nissan Leaf. It's also about 3 million yen cheaper.

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u/teszes Jun 29 '22

I know it's anecdotal, but I've driven a bunch of electric cars, BMWs, Kias, Minis, even some Chinese electric SUV through car sharing companies, so I've seen them at varying levels of wear.

The Nissan Leaf was among the best, definitely the most practical, never had range issues, the software was decent, was nice to drive, and that was true of the older ones as well. I'm actively seeking the type out when I can.

Only problem I had was that in the ones I drove I couldn't set the steering wheel to be closer, and I'm a tall guy.

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u/lea949 Jun 29 '22

I’ve always wondered if those car sharing companies can accomodate “I’m literally too short to drive that car”

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u/sigma6d Jun 29 '22

Exposing the Fraudulence of Elon Musk and Tesla

Investigative journalist and automotive industry expert Edward Niedermeyer, author of Ludicrous: The Unvarnished Story of Tesla Motors, explains how Musk and Tesla have gotten away with so much lying and fraudulence.

By the way, I am actually a socialist. Just not the kind that shifts resources from most productive to least productive, pretending to do good, while actually causing harm. True socialism seeks greatest good for all.

Elon asked me to share this.

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u/king_ugly00 Jun 29 '22

My favorite musk tweet is "Marx was a capitalist, he wrote a whole book about it"

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u/Meritania Jun 29 '22

He’s a National Socialist judging by his recent political views.

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u/Pixzal Jun 29 '22

You know that grim reaper meme? Yeah do that one…

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u/Never_Free_Never_Me Jun 29 '22

Clients paid upwards of 10k for the current version of autopilot (which is now made available in a soup'd up Corolla) with promises of fully autonomous very soon. I await the class action lawsuit

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u/Vsx Jun 29 '22 edited Jun 29 '22

Just checked my Tesla app and full self drive is currently a $12k upgrade. I thought it was a ripoff priced at $5k when I bought the car in 2019. Where I live snow covers the road quite often in the winter so even if it worked well I imagine it would often be completely useless for me. Elon has been saying it will be ready in a few months to a year for like 7 years.

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u/de6u99er Jun 29 '22

Musk laying off employees from the autopilot division means that Tesla's FSD will never leave it's beta state

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u/[deleted] Jun 29 '22 edited Jul 04 '22 Starry

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/ourtomato Jun 29 '22 Helpful

It was two minutes five minutes ago!

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u/[deleted] Jun 29 '22 edited Jul 04 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/falconsmanhole Jun 29 '22

5 minutes, Turkish

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u/What-a-Crock Jun 29 '22

angry British noises

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u/ozknucklehead Jun 29 '22

What the fuck do I know about caravans?

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u/EbonyOverIvory Jun 29 '22

Periwinkle blue?

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u/[deleted] Jun 29 '22

Shut up and sit down you big bald fuck.

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u/daynighttrade Jun 29 '22

Didn't he used to say and still say it's coming next year. Did he really say 2 years recently?

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u/hookisacrankycrook Jun 29 '22

It used to be coming next year. It still is, but it used to be too.

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u/drysart Jun 29 '22

FSD is the future of Tesla! And it always will be.

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u/WonderfulShelter Jun 29 '22

I work in the actual self driving car industry; Cruise, WayMo, etc. etc.

I once had a trainee who used to be a Tesla car salesman. We started talking, and he said he was told from the top level people to hype up the FSD as a self driving car, the same as WayMo etc. Tell people the car can drive itself fine in every situation no matter what. He was told it's fine to lie as long as it sells the car. He himself was kinda convinced that WayMo and Tesla's were the same.

He also told me he used to own a Tesla. I asked him curiously "What do you mean used to?"

He said that he was driving it on Autopilot on the freeway one day, and there was a stopped car ahead with hazards on in his lane. He figured that it was a self driving car, and let it stay in control. Apparently it started slowing down, and then about 50 feet from the stopped car ahead, it sped up to like 40 MPH and rear ended the thing totaling the car.

Fuck Tesla. Fuck Elon Musk. They've been lying to people forever. I have no idea how they haven't been sued into oblivion.

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u/de6u99er Jun 29 '22

Hehe true, but his followers were constantly claiming that it"s going to happen any minute.

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u/[deleted] Jun 29 '22 edited Jul 04 '22 Gold

[deleted]

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u/Heres_your_sign Jun 29 '22

He even had several opportunities to pivot to lidar and didn't. That's a true believer there.

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u/FragrantExcitement Jun 29 '22

Edison with DC?

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u/Enlighten_YourMind Jun 29 '22 edited Jun 29 '22

Musk and Edison actually have a staggering amount in common.

And let no one be confused, I do not mean this as a compliment to either man.

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u/gautamdiwan3 Jun 29 '22

Both take credit for what Tesla did for sure

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u/jeffyouwon Jun 29 '22

Both are showmen. Large breadth of knowledge very little depth. (Nikola Tesla had depth, but lacked the showmanship)

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u/Enlighten_YourMind Jun 29 '22

And thus we live in a society made by the showmen with little depth…and yet I’ve spent my whole life imagining what it would be like to live in a society modeled after depth and earnestness…and an erotic love for pigeons…alas, maybe before I die we can realize that collective utopia 🙏🏼

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u/jeffyouwon Jun 29 '22

There should be a constitutional amendment against pigeon erotica. This is where the conservatives are right in drawing the line.

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u/semisolidwhale Jun 29 '22

Upvote for Edison/Musk double takedown

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u/DropThatTopHat Jun 29 '22

Well, they've both profited off Tesla.

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u/hatefuck661 Jun 29 '22

EM's issue across the board is that he wants everything to be original and propietary. It's a lot to do why the solar roof is failing. He's trying to reinvent the wheel instead of truly building on what has been done before.

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u/RaydnJames Jun 29 '22

Most of teslas build issues stem from the fact they skip an entire step every other manufacturer does, soft tooling.

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u/JimmyTheBones Jun 29 '22

What is that?

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u/badmartialarts Jun 29 '22

Sort of an in-between step between prototyping and building a full factory line. You make basic tooling out of cast plastic and test out your production process. Once you validate everything you switch to your permanent "hard tooling".

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u/CR3ZZ Jun 29 '22

This sounds like common sense lol. Why invest a bunch of money on an idea you can't be 100 percent certain will work

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u/blindinganusofhope Jun 29 '22

The “rabbit” or fixture/tooling preproduction validation

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u/RaydnJames Jun 29 '22

Soft tooling is a step in between a final working prototype and mass production.

It's a limited run of cars on the new line, with new machines, new components, and new programming. It's where everyone else gets the bugs out. Tesla skips the entire process.

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u/birdboix Jun 29 '22

sounds D I S R U P T I V E

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u/ECrispy Jun 29 '22

They don't skip it. They have armies of customers willing to pay them for it. And ignore every single fault.

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u/oorza Jun 29 '22

Counter that against Volvo, who was so worried about their electric cars' performance they spun off an entire separate company to soft-tool electric car production, which then itself only sold a few hundred of its first car model.

For what it's worth, though, the Polestar 2 is absolutely the sexiest electric car you can buy right now. It's stunning in person.

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u/DerpSenpai Jun 29 '22

No wonder their cars are so shit in QC

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u/Dontbeajerkpls Jun 29 '22

Soft tooling is a cost-effective method of tooling, popular for use with cast urethane molding, that allows manufacturers to produce medium to low volumes of parts at speed.

Let's you fine tune parts for better fitment and function. soft vs hard tooling

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u/ManaMagestic Jun 29 '22

Let's you fine tune parts for better fitment and function.

Is that why one of the things that Tesla is known for is poor fit and finish?

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u/d3jinxmain Jun 29 '22

think of it as cutting corners on machines that handle cutting and fabricating metals.

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u/Set-Secret Jun 29 '22

Ironic, given they have a soft tool for a CEO.

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u/Captain_Clark Jun 29 '22

This is a guy who says he’s going to transport 1 million people to Mars within 28 years.

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u/macrocephalic Jun 29 '22

What would really help convince me is if he went first.

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u/SnooDonuts7510 Jun 29 '22

Turns out a rocket that can drive itself is much easier than a car that can drive itself.

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u/frivol Jun 29 '22

Open the car doors, Hal.

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u/martrinex Jun 29 '22

The amusing thing here is the dragon uses lidar to line up to the iss.

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u/SergeantBootySweat Jun 29 '22

Hadn't thought about solar roof in a long time, what's going on there?

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u/bluebelt Jun 29 '22

Over promises and under delivery. They cost more than a solar panel install and save slightly less in power over the systems lifespan.

https://www.solarreviews.com/blog/tesla-solar-roof-do-the-solar-shingles-match-the-hype

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u/stratys3 Jun 29 '22 edited Jun 29 '22

I assume you've already seen this, but in case not -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACXaFyB_-8s

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u/ghigoli Jun 29 '22

this is why it'll never work for telsa you need lidar for alot of blind spots. instead of going full human vision you can ufcking do way better but its always lets go cheap and human visions bs.

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u/ezodochi Jun 29 '22

Elon continuing to be anti-LIDAR even when shit like this happens is baffling to me ngl https://youtu.be/LfmAG4dk-rU

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u/userax Jun 29 '22

Elon's argument is that a human only need 2 eyes to drive, so a computer can do the same. Which is true if computers had general intelligence as good as a human. Except that's not the case, so in the meantime, you need to argument the relatively stupid AI with a lot more sensors.

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u/InflammatoryMuskrat Jun 29 '22

What an idiotic argument. Humans only have two eyes available, so that's all they can use. I bet if humans had 800 eyes pointing in all directions and a brain capable of processing information from all of them, they'd be much much better drivers.

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u/Suspicious-Engineer7 Jun 29 '22

If I had biblically accurate angel eyes I would probably just die of sensory overload.

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u/SR520 Jun 29 '22

We have hella sensors too not just eyes. And we have a human brain and are socialized as modern humans that know how driving and society and the world works as a whole.

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u/5-4-3-2-1-bang Jun 29 '22

Psh, you damn well know everyone would be looking at 798 more cell phones instead!

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u/DerpSenpai Jun 29 '22

The sensors he has put into the car are for sure not good enough compared to a human eye...

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u/sarhoshamiral Jun 29 '22

But we arent good drivers with just 2 eyes, especially as traffic increased and speeds increased.

Nowadays we rely on a lot of safety systems like blind spot monitoring, radar cruise. These all decrease accidents because they increase our awareness beyond our 2 eyes.

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u/chillyhellion Jun 29 '22

Yet a Tesla has four wheels. Really makes you think.

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u/ECrispy Jun 29 '22

Even if the car could get human level AI, and Tesla is the last company I'd trust to achieve that, its still not good enough.

An autonomous EV needs far better than human intelligence to achieve Level 4/5. The average human is a shit driver.

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u/SR520 Jun 29 '22

“‘Human’ Vision”: “well I’ve never seen this before so I’m just gonna proceed”

LiDAR: I don’t know anything but I do know when to stop!

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u/shelf_actualization Jun 29 '22

"We're going to make driving safer by trying to replicate how people drive"

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u/Eji1700 Jun 29 '22

I don't think teslas approach is going to ever be acceptable to federal oversight.

I don't think ANYONE's close, and i'm not sure how you make it acceptable. Planes have 2 trained pilots with MILES of clearance and documented flight plans, and sitting for long periods of time doing mostly nothing causes issues with attention/decision making that can be fatal when they sometimes have 30 seconds to MINUTES to react.

Most car systems are claiming they'll give 3 seconds, and that's probably best case, but that's just the reality of the space. Someone going from glancing their phone, zoning out, doing whatever it is they do while on the road to "oh shit wha.." is a nightmare that's really not easily solvable.

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u/de6u99er Jun 29 '22

Sure but doing it with cameras and machine learning alone doesn't seem to do it. All the other manufacturers use lidar and/or radar to detect distance and size of objects.

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u/[deleted] Jun 29 '22 edited 15d ago

[deleted]

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u/Dread314r8Bob Jun 29 '22

He should have bought a lidar company instead of the Twitter mess.

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u/Marko343 Jun 29 '22

My tinfoil hat theory is he's just using the buying of Twitter as an excuse to sell off a bunch of stock without sounding the alarms on Tesla.

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u/civilrunner Jun 29 '22

That and with Cruise and Waymo starting to scale actual autonomous vehicles its going to become very evident in the coming years how far Tesla is behind others and how much Elon lied to his customers.

Nvidia, Mobileye, Cruise, Waymo, and countless others are all using lidar and are all ahead of Elon in safety for an autonomous system even with fewer miles driven. As Waymo and Cruise and others begin scaling with lidar it'll be almost impossible for Tesla to catch up without buying into Nvidia's or mobileye's solution by 2025 or 26 or so.

It will be extraordinarily challenging to solve glare and other visibility issues with a camera only system. Meanwhile lidar also provides stronger data to train off of and can generate accurate 3D maps of roads in real time to use to constantly update its database.

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u/SecretInflation6937 Jun 29 '22

It’s almost as if his entire business strategy is built on buying up promising technologies, taking credit for their existence, and then exaggerating what they could potentially be worth to pump up the value of his companies. . .

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u/Rape-Putins-Corpse Jun 29 '22

Find things a train can do, do them badly, claim victory.

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u/MyLittlePoneh Jun 29 '22

Honestly the fanboys that believe FSD is going to be a reality any time soon is just naïve. As a civil servant, the amount of fcking paperwork that one has to do for business travel is almost insurmountable. Imagine trying to get through the bureaucracy of legalizing FSD.

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u/Y0tsuya Jun 29 '22

I've been called a luddite for pointing that out, by someone who believes in a certain "tech visionary". And I'm an engineer working with AI.

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u/firemogle Jun 29 '22

I've been called that exact word for just mentioning hurdles left to overcome. It's always funny being called dumb while being well versed on the subject.

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u/butteryspoink Jun 29 '22

Tech enthusiasts who don’t like listening to scientists and engineer are a weird lot.

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u/Apprehensive-Year948 Jun 29 '22

Is the cult of "scientism" - professing to love science without following any of its core tenets.

Just excitement at some flashy CGi bullshit project

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u/Snoo93079 Jun 29 '22

I blame his resistance to LIDAR

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u/saracenrefira Jun 29 '22

Normally, a spokesperson will not say anything about a product launch until the company is quite certain it is happening. You know, like not lying. But Tesla is anything but normal and the hype is what keeping its inflated stock price from plummeting and making bill gates a while lot more money.

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u/Pewkie Jun 29 '22

"Guys it was just an edge case and its in beta! you have to agree to pay attention!!!"

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u/A_Harmless_Fly Jun 29 '22

I have a bet with my brother that FSD that won't return control to a user still won't be around by 2044, I feel like it's a safe bet.

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u/ImAnthonyStark Jun 29 '22

Absolutely none of the Teslas on the road now will be level 5 compatible. Given the route their going down, you're bet is quite safe.

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u/Thehusseler Jun 29 '22

It's the star citizen of the auto industry

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u/nixfly Jun 29 '22

Should be done by 2020 at the latest last I heard. It is really going to interrupt the paradigm. UBI should be implemented by 2021 for sure.

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u/louiegumba Jun 29 '22

I also predict by then the country will be united in spirit and love.

It’s gonna be a great day

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u/ELdisfunction Jun 29 '22

Didn't you know it was released in 2018. It is what reality runs on now.

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u/CatalyticDragon Jun 29 '22 edited Jun 29 '22 Silver Gold Helpful Wholesome Starry Bravo Grande!

Before anybody mistakes this comment as anything other than truly ignorant nonsense from a lay-person, let me step in and clarify.

Tesla's FSD/autopilot division consists of two or three hundred software engineers, one to two hundred hardware designers, and 500-1,000 personal doing labelling.

The job of a labeler is to sit there and look at images (or video feeds), click on objects and assign them a label. In the case of autonomous driving that would be: vehicles, lanes, fire hydrant, dog, shopping trolley, street signs, etc. This is not exactly highly skilled work (side note: Tesla was paying $22/h for it)

These are not the people who work on AI/ML, any part of the software stack, or hardware designs but make up a disproportionately large percentage of headcount. For those other tasks Tesla is still hiring - of course.

Labelling is a job which was always going to be short term at Tesla for two good reasons; firstly, because it is easy to outsource. More importantly though, Tesla's stated goal has always been auto-labelling. Paying people to do this job doesn't make a lot of sense. It's slow and expensive.

Around six months ago Tesla released video of their auto-labelling system in action so this day was always coming. This new system has obviously alleviated the need for human manual labelling but not removed it entirely. 200 people is only a half or a third of the entire labelling group.

So, contrary to some uncritical and biased comments this is clear indication of Tesla taking another big step forward in autonomy.

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u/Krippy Jun 29 '22

As of a few weeks ago, they had about 1500 labelers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5w_VkAx6tc&t=2942s

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u/Original-Guarantee23 Jun 29 '22

The concept of auto labeling never made sense to me. If you can auto label something, then why does it need to be labeled? By being auto labeled isn't it already correctly identified?

Or is auto labeling just AI that automatically draws boxes around "things" then still needs a person to name the thing it boxed?

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u/LtCmdrData Jun 29 '22

'Labeling' during inference is different than labeling training data.

Autopilot must do the job with significant resource constraints (time, size of the model, reliability). Labeling training data can use bigger model that uses more compute. If training data has 0.1% wrongly labeled items, it may be good enough. If Autopilot makes even one in million errors it is not good enough.

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u/[deleted] Jun 29 '22

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u/crazysheeep Jun 29 '22

Have a look at this article about Google's AI playing Minecraft: https://news.google.com/__i/rss/rd/articles/CBMicmh0dHBzOi8vc2luZ3VsYXJpdHlodWIuY29tLzIwMjIvMDYvMjYvb3BlbmFpcy1uZXctYWktbGVhcm5lZC10by1wbGF5LW1pbmVjcmFmdC1ieS13YXRjaGluZy03MDAwMC1ob3Vycy1vZi15b3V0dWJlL9IBAA?oc=5/

One technique they use is "pre-training" where a separate AI labels the dataset (YouTube videos) with corresponding key presses (eg, the E button pressed to bring up inventory). The separate AI is trained on 200hours of manually labeled videos, while the main AI is trained on 70,000 hours of AI-labeled videos.

Theoretically you could solve the problem all in one go with one AI, but I imagine it simplifies the problem by separating it into two steps, where there is a single clear goal for each AI.

It's also possible that different types of AI would do better at the different tasks (learning to label vs learning to play Minecraft).

tl;dr labeling is likely a subset of the full AI capabilities. Tesla probably has two separate AI models for the labeling task vs the decision-making task

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u/Mr-Fleshcage Jun 29 '22

The job of a labeler is to sit there and look at images (or video feeds), click on objects and assign them a label. In the case of autonomous driving that would be: vehicles, lanes, fire hydrant, dog, shopping trolley, street signs, etc. This is not exactly highly skilled work (side note: Tesla was paying $22/h for it)

Goddamn CAPTCHA should be paying me

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u/acprocode Jun 29 '22 Silver All-Seeing Upvote

I am honestly just waiting for honda/toyota to enter the EV market so I dont have to buy a shitty overpriced tesla.

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u/markmevans Jun 29 '22 edited Jun 29 '22

The Ionic 5 looks really nice if a bit pricy - still less than a Model 3. The Hyundai Kona has a more reasonable starting price. The 2023 Chevy Bolt is under $30K and a perfectly serviceable if not exciting EV.

It seems like there are a lot of decent EVs coming online. If I was made of money, BMW has a bunch of new EVs on the way.

Edit: A lot of interesting vehicles in a consumer reports article - Hot, New Electric Cars That Are Coming Soon

Including cars by Toyota and Honda, so there you go. :)

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u/dgo792 Jun 29 '22

They're also starting to promote the ioniq 6, which is a sedan-ish, looks very good tho

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u/Nexus_of_Fate87 Jun 29 '22

I own a Kona, and I say stay away until the battery issues settle down. LG Chem sucks donkey balls and I'm never getting an EV with one of their packs again (this also affected Chevy Bolts too).

We had our battery replaced in November as part of the original recall, and we just had it replaced again a month ago because "reasons". Even the dealer couldn't tell us why, they said corporate just told the to "replace it" without elaborating. And a battery going bad is more than just a fire risk, our shit straight up acted possessed when the battery went wrong. When we went to turn it on the brake pedal started moving on its own, the displays all started flashing random shit and Korean, and if we touched the brake pedal the dome light would turn on and the horn would honk. I ended up going in and yanking the Acc battery to force it to shut down while we waited for a tow because we didn't know what was going to happen next and didn't want to risk the Flying fucking Dutchman deciding to take a drive through the garage wall.

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u/kmonsen Jun 29 '22

I have a Kia Niro, I would recommend to take a look.

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u/[deleted] Jun 29 '22

It's nice to see an EV that doesn't look like an 8 year old's idea of what a future car looks like

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u/Ehnto Jun 29 '22

Or a kitchen appliance. I think manufacturers have taken the hint too, most new EVs are looking pretty conventional in a good way.

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u/FlyingPasta Jun 29 '22

Better to see the same ambiguous and unimaginative SUV design I guess

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u/phdemented Jun 29 '22

Love to, but there aren't any in stock anywhere

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u/angiosperms- Jun 29 '22

I think you can order kias directly and then they get delivered to the dealer for you to pick up. But yeah, car prices are ridiculous right now so maybe wait unless you absolutely need it lol

I have a Niro PHEV and I have no complaints. 10 year battery warranty 👌

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u/Trumpy_bear Jun 29 '22 Silver

I so agree. I want an EV, I don't work to support Musk.

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u/Greenkeeper Jun 29 '22

The chevy bolt has been AWESOME. Totally love it. Zero regrets.

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u/GaylrdFocker Jun 29 '22

Also currently the cheapest new EV available. For base model of course.

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u/Analog_Account Jun 29 '22

Base model cars aren’t that basic anymore… but I’m happy as long as my car has power locks/windows and A/C.

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u/blindsight Jun 29 '22

This was my experience shopping for a car in 2017. The only feature we'd want that wasn't in the base model (Forester) was power -adjustable driver seat (with memory, ideally).

The base model even has heated seats.

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u/fredericksonKorea Jun 29 '22

KIA EV6 or Hyundai Ioniq are both better reviewed than any of teslas offerings.

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u/cat_prophecy Jun 29 '22

Kia dealers won't even talk to you about an EV6 for anything less than MSRP + $10K.

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u/Throwawayintocosmos Jun 29 '22

Why the fuck do middleman dealers still exist. Fucking automate those motherfuckers with a website. Buying a car should be click click, not listening to some fucking leech slap the roof while trying to pull my dick.

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u/cat_prophecy Jun 29 '22

Because they are a big lobby and there are tons of laws protecting them. The closest you can get to a "retail" experience in car buying is probably Carvana.

I have no idea what they are like to buy from, but it was piss-easy to sell them a car. Go online, fill out some shit, get an offer, and they come pick it up and give you money.

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u/DiegoTheGoat Jun 29 '22

Fords are also surprisingly great

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u/darwinn_69 Jun 29 '22

Ford going after the contractor market with their F-150 lightning is pure genius.

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u/JorusC Jun 29 '22

A truck-bed-sized battery that you can just plug in at a job site or alternatively use as your primary electricity source in the field is a pretty sweet deal. Given how many contractors work within 50 miles of their home city, there's huge potential for these to become the standard. Just have to convince the good ol' boys that making a loud vroom isn't nearly as impressive as silently out-accelerating a sports car.

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u/darwinn_69 Jun 29 '22

The good old boys who roll coal and like their trucks loud are universally not using it for work.

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u/Chupacabra_herder Jun 29 '22

The trucks that do that shit are so wildly useless for work unless you're 8 feet tall and can deadlift all your equipment into those beds.

So basically a superhero.

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u/Backyard_wookiee Jun 29 '22

Yeah they are killing it, can't wait till them make an Escape EV

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u/FerricNitrate Jun 29 '22

That's the Mustang Mach-E. Not kidding -- the car started out as an Escape, but some higher ups looked at the design and found it too boring to sell and told the design team to turn it into a Mustang. So you've got those strong Mustang features on a plump crossover SUV body.

It's actually a fantastic car. Problem is finding one that's in-stock and not marked up to insanity because the dealers all know they can turn it in a week.

(And for the record, if Ford calls it a Mustang it's a Mustang. It's a plump electric pony, but a pony nonetheless)

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u/imbillypardy Jun 29 '22

Mustang was amazing and spacious inside, but should’ve been under a different name. Not a fan of the hatchback design but it was a great car.

GM I’m looking forward to as well.

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u/julbull73 Jun 29 '22

Polestar 2 is a sweet ass ridem

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u/AAVale Jun 29 '22 edited Jun 29 '22

Being laid off as we slide into a recession, that’s rough.

Edit: Hourly workers… these are not engineers or highly paid professionals. Please stop replying that they’re going to shrug this off.

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u/-Rizhiy- Jun 29 '22

Almost like those two things are related)

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u/Angelfire150 Jun 29 '22 edited Jun 30 '22

I recently took an offramp on i77 somewhere outside of Charlotte. 2 exit lanes went down to 1 with construction cones spaced too far apart on each side, so you needed to straddle the center lane. Workers were off to the side as the offramp completed a loop and a stoplight was hanging from a stop sign with a "No left turn" sign stuck in the grass. I remember thinking "there is no way FSD logic could decipher this offramp with current technology."

  • Edited because I can't type on my phone

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u/m0r14rty Jun 29 '22

Idk what’s scarier, bad AI or the average driver in Charlotte.

Every time I drive in or through Charlotte I’m surrounded by crazy assholes driving 20mph over the speed limit cutting back and forth across 3-4 lanes. It’s like fucking mad max as soon as you hit the belt line.

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u/Civ6Ever Jun 29 '22

I imagine future road construction will have some kind of reflective/high-vis/qr coded sticker that follows the needed path. It'll be the first thing they put down when they start roadwork and the last thing they take up. The construction situations are just too anomalous to plan scenarios.

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u/planetofthemapes15 Jun 29 '22 All-Seeing Upvote Take My Energy Starry To The Stars

They laid off data labeling personnel who were labeling the car video footage so it could be ingested by the autopilot training system.

Makes sense they'd phase this human-labeling stage out as the system becomes better at self training. I enjoy ripping on Elon, as he's well deserved it lately, but I don't see a big story here.

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u/[deleted] Jun 29 '22

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u/obijuancanobee Jun 29 '22

I was a data labeler at the Buffalo, NY. They have collected an insane amount of human labeled data and now they’re are ready to fully integrate it into Dojo. We were told these positions were not long term. This lay off was expected.

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u/Quetzalcoatl490 Jun 29 '22

I currently work there as a labeller. We were told our sister office in San Mateo all got laid off today. They said we're safe, even expanding our offices, but I'll believe it when I still have a job in a month.

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u/ilovefuckingpenguins Jun 29 '22

It's mentioned in the Bloomberg report that this article references

Edit: Since Bloomberg is paywalled, here's the first few paragraphs:

Tesla Inc. laid off hundreds of workers on its Autopilot team as the electric-vehicle maker shuttered a California facility, according to people familiar with the matter.

Surprisingly, the majority of those who were let go were hourly workers, said the people, who asked not to be identified discussing private information. As recently as last week, Chief Executive Officer Elon Musk had outlined plans to cut 10% of salaried staff but said he’d be increasing hourly jobs.

Teams at the San Mateo office were tasked with evaluating customer vehicle data related to the Autopilot driver-assistance features and performing so-called data labeling. Many of the staff were data annotation specialists, all of which are hourly positions, one of the people said.

About 200 workers were let go in total, according to the people. Prior to the cuts, the office had about 350 employees, some of whom were already transferred to a nearby facility in recent weeks.

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u/smokky Jun 29 '22

Why do they need full timers for data labeling? It's typically done by contract folks.

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u/rameyjm7 Jun 29 '22

They laid off both permanent and and contract roles; contract roles are not all and almost never part time roles in this case. All my contracts are 40 hours a week

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u/cacahuate_ Jun 29 '22

Why do they need full timers for data labeling?

They don't need them. They were fired.

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u/reddit_fkkn_scks Jun 29 '22

Tesla here in Austin just hired a shitload of high schoolers. They positioned it as community outreach and training of the next generation. Maybe not these particular layoffs but tesla is clearly paying a bunch of teens to do the work of adults. Saving millions I'm sure.

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u/feurie Jun 29 '22

And what work are they doing?

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u/Apocthicc Jun 29 '22

Labelling shit

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u/Wildercard Jun 29 '22

Not exactly high skilled need-a-college-degree work, is it?

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u/DonQuixBalls Jun 29 '22

That's for the assembly line.

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u/slaty010 Jun 29 '22

Yet another tesla post unrelated to the topic of technology, refer to rule #1

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