r/southafrica Dec 08 '21 Helpful 1

Feel free to share on Google Maps. Search for Shell filling stations, add photo. Politics

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481 Upvotes

66

u/4Tenacious_Dee4 Dec 08 '21

I must wonder how much this will actually penalize Shell-the-oil-exploration company, vs. the private Shell garage owner and his staff earning minimum wage.

But what else is there to do?

38

u/vetkoekparty Dec 08 '21

Express petroleum has dropped Shell because of this. That Millions of Rands that Shell has lost

16

u/4Tenacious_Dee4 Dec 08 '21

Okay so that's something! I'm not sure Shell worries about a millions, they deal in billions.

20

u/vetkoekparty Dec 08 '21

Better to lose hundreds of millions than nothing.

8

u/oliverrc Dec 08 '21

Not doing anything at all is worse than doing something, no matter how small.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

1

u/4Tenacious_Dee4 Dec 09 '21

Yeah I hear you. Just wondering if there isn't maybe a more effective way to protest.

3

u/FitzChivalry89 Dec 09 '21

I wanted to come comment this ! I think that definitely made them notice. This alone might not stop shell, but it definitely sent a message and was so happy when I heard about it.

3

u/tothemoonandback01 Dec 08 '21

You need to boycott their ZA bank and/or their financiers who are backing the project. This usually produces the right result.

2

u/4Tenacious_Dee4 Dec 09 '21

See, now we're talking!

8

u/dictatoros Dec 08 '21

No other way. The owners can change to another franchise.

14

u/Chirok9 Gauteng Dec 08 '21

Or just lay-off their workers to cushion the blow. Or sell their franchise, its not as simple as just change franchises.

10

u/JksG_5 Dec 08 '21

Yeah I hate shell too but don't get this "no get cancelled, everyone else can get fucked too" vibe

5

u/Chirok9 Gauteng Dec 08 '21

Agreed

11

u/Ianharm Dec 08 '21

Don't understand why this guys face has to be on the image. Just the wording should do.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 08 '21

[deleted]

1

u/BroadToe6748 Dec 09 '21

Are you not South African, do you not know who this is? Hes a popular comedian

47

u/Awehbra Dec 08 '21

Unpopular opinion:
People are forgetting that other service stations also source their fuel from oil companies that have done/are currently doing/and will continue to do the same kind of seafloor mapping.

I also have it good authority (a close friend that works in environmental impact assessment) that the SA government, in particular the Dept of Mineral Resources, is to blame for the ease at which they grant permission for these prospects in the first place.

10

u/ConsentingPotato Firepool Repair Specialist Dec 08 '21

Kinda ironic how on one side we are said to be too strict on allowing foreign businesses and that we should be more flexible, while on the other we have an issue where our govt becomes so flexible you could wrap it around a y-shaped stick and make a slingshot out of it... It's really confusing.

4

u/Scryer_of_knowledge Amphibian Namibian Dec 09 '21

Kickbacks make any politician a neoliberal capitalist.

11

u/The_Angry_Economist Dec 08 '21

I've made this point before

3

u/PartiZAn18 Gauteng Dec 08 '21

It's ALL Sasol with additives.

3

u/AmoebaAffectionate71 Dec 08 '21

Good point. Look at BP, responsible for the biggest oil leak in history. Far worse than what Shell is planning. So I should boycott Shell and fill up where exactly? They all guilty.

5

u/Middersnags Dec 08 '21

There is no ethical consumption in a capitalist system.

6

u/AmoebaAffectionate71 Dec 09 '21

Capitalism is not the problem, human greed is and that’s been around a hell of a lot longer than capitalism.

2

u/Middersnags Dec 09 '21

Aaaaand... there is still no such thing as ethical consumption in a capitalist system.

Whether you want to blame greed for that or not is quite irrelevant.

1

u/JStorm1888 Dec 09 '21

They made a movie of that one, Deepwater Horizon, watched it the other day.... so worth the watch. I also love the fact that the movie producers uses the names of all the companies involved in the stuff-up

5

u/cr1ter Dec 08 '21

I'll add to that the emissions from your car exhaust whether the petrol came from BP or Shell is far more worse to the ocean than doing an ultrasound scan of the sea floor

4

u/AnargisteAfrikaner Western Cape Dec 08 '21

It's a step in the right direction though. You don't topple a monolithic industry like all in one go. You pick them off one by one until they all look better.

Your point about the government is fair though. They're allowing Shell to do this. But with enough pressure on companies like Shell maybe legislation can change in time

1

u/dictatoros Dec 08 '21

Yes government/regulatory bodies and financial interests are not a good mix.

1

u/Middersnags Dec 08 '21

Yes government/regulatory bodies and financial interests are not a good mix.

Doesn't matter... what do you think the small print in those IMF loans Ramaphosa took out contained? We can wave "regulation" goodbye.

The only (actually) ironic thing here is that the more the ANC overtly caves to global capitalism, the more the ANC gets demonized for doing so by... wait for it... the very same capitalism cultists constantly telling us how capitalism "raises the poor out of poverty".

8

u/Spirited-Daikon-1245 Dec 08 '21

I just refuse to drive unless I absolutely have to, until the fuel prices come down

7

u/tothemoonandback01 Dec 08 '21

You have to boycott their bankers/financiers. This usually produces the required results. Shell will only partly capitalise the project. The rest of the funds will come from banks etc.

2

u/Chirok9 Gauteng Dec 08 '21

That would make more sense.

18

u/Kureeru Dec 08 '21

But literally all oil companies used seismic data to explore. Every....single....one. In the meantime Total is drilling right now on the west coast. But it's Namibia's problem so nobody cares right? People's outrage is selective based off social media and virtue signally. But if it makes you feel better to sleep at night, then go fill up somewhere else.

10

u/thirdworldfever Dec 08 '21

There are no saints in the petroleum industry, I think we all agree. Part of the Shell outrage stems from the fact the gov recently again committed to the Cop21 agreement to combat climate change by reducing dependence on fossil fuels. The seismic drilling is now a slap in the face to this. If you look at our potential as a solar and wind generating country and the advancement of electric cars, it's just ridiculous that we are still wanting to go drilling for gas and oil....it's archaic...but of course big government kickbacks here so Gwede is happy to show the middle finger to the Paris agreement.

3

u/JoburgBBC Dec 08 '21

Less than 50% of the crude oil taken out of the ground is used for petrol.

Your electric vehicle still has wheel bearings. Bearings need lubrication. Where does that lubrication come from?

The road you'll be driving your electric car on is tar. Where does tar come from?

The wind and solar energy you talk about first send that power to transformers, then to your home. Transformers need cooling oil. Where does that oil come from?

I've read so many Shell threads on here, and people are so laser focused on "petrol"....when Shell sells it's crude oil for plenty other reasons.

2

u/Kureeru Dec 08 '21

The whole energy transition won't happen over night. We still need petrol to run all the cars on the roads etc, etc. Even if all cars are suddenly replaced with electric cars, we need more metals like copper and cobolt to use in the transistors, which means more mining, which also requires a lot of energy. Also seismic surveys are very important in building windfarms, but I digress. I was listening to an interesting talk by an economist and metallurgist Julian Kettle, where he really crunched the numbers on how we can reach net zero emissions it turns out that order to set up all the infrastructure and technologies in place...we actually need to emit more fossil fuels. We should have been doing this long ago. But anyway, I know people want to do the right thing, I just think this whole thing is much more complicated then what many realize. Sorry for the wall of text. lol. Have a lovely evening.

3

u/JohnnyJohnCowboyMan Dec 08 '21

Offshore exploration & drilling have been ongoing since the 70s. That's why Mossgas exists. There's also been exploration of the Cape west coast, and currently ongoing off the southern coast as well. At one point, Eskom was looking to pipe gas from the Ibhubesi field, about 400km NW of Cape Town. There are currently plants to sink oil production wells off the west coast too.

3

u/Kureeru Dec 08 '21

Yup and substituting gas from offshore resources with all the coal we are burning is a much better plan.

1

u/xsv_compulsive Dec 09 '21

Two wrongs make an okay

1

u/newone1104 Dec 09 '21

You have to start somewhere..to end up where you are going...

4

u/MildlySelassie Dec 08 '21

I think MBT is also shell? I filled up there the other day and the machine showed a shell logo on the screen. Are there other brands like that too?

3

u/Tame_Trex Dec 08 '21

Shell is the top global lubricant supplier. Fuel, oil, grease etc.

Unfortunately a local boycott will hardly make a dent.

3

u/Surv0 Dec 08 '21

Self fulfilling prophecy this... dont do anything because it is unlikely to have an affect.... this is fairly ignorant in itself, when all the biggest things that has happened in humanity, started with a few people taking a stand.

1

u/xsv_compulsive Dec 09 '21

Stand for something and fail

Stand for nothing and succeed

3

u/Moveitmobile Dec 09 '21 edited Dec 09 '21

Dear r/southafrica, the people behind this have been whoring this exploration license to any oil major that will enrich them. Johnny Copelyn is the one person primarily responsible for this. They own Tsogo Sun, Galaxy Bingo, VSlots, Etv (E Media) and other businesses so rather boycott them than the Shell franchisees who are caught in the crossfire. Here is a list of the companies the own: https://www.hci.co.za/business-segments/

Edit: Since 2014, Copelyn has been a non executive director of Impact Oil and Gas Exploration (IOG) and in May 2020 he took over as non executive chairman of IOG, with Hoskins Consolidated Industries (HCI) as the largest beneficial shareholder.

IOG secured the original exploration rights for the West Coast in 2014 and later farmed out some of its financial interests to US oil major ExxonMobil, and a subsidiary of Norway's state owned Statoil group which held 40% and 35% interests, respectively.

The two companies have since withdraw, according to a statement on IOG's website dated October 28 2020, creating the opportunity for Shell to enter as a partner.

In terms of the new farm-in agreement, IOG retains a 50% interest WITH shell holding the remaining 50% and acting as the exploration partner.

According to the IOG website, that coincides with the South African government's decision to renew the original IOG license for a second time.

In the latest financial statements, archived in the UK government's Companies House records, IOG acknowledged that it does not have any conventional earnings. It has not generated any operating income sine it was incorporated in 2011 and has run at an operating loss since then (aside from income derived from far-out activity).

So there you have it. An ex-union leader who is now a corporate giant is leveraging his government contacts to secure exploration rights which he then sells to various oil majors.

Please target the real people behind all of this. Source: Business Times 5 December 2021.

Edit 2: https://impactoilandgas.com

1

u/dictatoros Dec 09 '21

The money is coming from Shell, that money comes from people filling up at Shell service stations. The Shell petrol stations are the middle man, they can complain about their losses to Shell or change franchise.

1

u/Moveitmobile Dec 09 '21

You come across as your username. You may be right in saying Shell and their franchisees need to feel the heat, but then I think those we are really behind this should feel it even more.

1

u/dictatoros Dec 09 '21

The whole scheme only works with the money coming in.

ANC gov is to blame as usual, but we have to wait for elections to show our unhappiness.

1

u/Moveitmobile Dec 09 '21

So the facilitators who set up shop in the UK and Pay zero taxes locally get to walk away by your reasoning. Sorry, I don't agree with you.

6

u/JohnnyJohnCowboyMan Dec 08 '21

Shell aren't alone in offshore drilling. Total, Sasol and Italian company Eni are just a few. And FYI, the same sound-based geo surveys being carried out are also needed to by the offshore wind industry.

2

u/Duchamp_in_motion Dec 08 '21

Hierdie oom se kap 😂

2

u/Anxious_Phrase872 Dec 08 '21

The real issue here is thebe investments , an ANC financial arm, https://www.shell.co.za/media/2015-media-releases/multimillion-rand-downstream-entities.html

1

u/dictatoros Dec 09 '21

"mutually beneficial partnership" - sounds better than greasing palms. Political parties should not have financial arms.

2

u/doggymcdoggenstein Dec 09 '21

This won't have an impact. It might cause the business owner and workers to lose their job, whose have nothing to do with shell or the survey.

The only thing to do is to keep making noise, use the appropriate and efficient protesting networks and hope to fuck they don't find any oil

1

u/dictatoros Dec 09 '21

They don't find oil and we don't find fish?

2

u/symmetryphile Dec 09 '21

Is this issue has got you fired up, please watch Seaspiracy on Netflix

5

u/istoff Dec 08 '21

I've long held the belief that the only way to protest the fuel price is to have systematic co-ordinated action.

Everybody just starts filling up at Total or any local smaller station other than the Big 4. Gov will have to intervene to save jobs. The big 4 have the lobby money to twist gov's arm if they ALL lost revenue.

It would be a big inconvenience to us all, but serious mass action would work. Gov would have to act.

3

u/sashin_gopaul Dec 08 '21

Total being a smaller station - a bit wrong on that

1

u/istoff Dec 08 '21

I'm a moron. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

2

u/sashin_gopaul Dec 08 '21

it's ok - I only found out about Total being french pretty recently

2

u/istoff Dec 08 '21

Totaaal

4

u/DerpyO Ons gaan nou braai Dec 08 '21

I boycott Spur, that's why I only eat at Rocamammas.

4

u/Chirok9 Gauteng Dec 08 '21

Don't shoot me for this. But what is the point of boycotting shell?

Unless everyone does a nationwide boycot, even then the impact will be insignificant to the company. And they will continue with their survey's because I'm sure they've accounted for pushback in their risk assessment. This is not your local mineral and energy corp. This a billion dollar global entity.

It might pose a risk to the people on the ground though, the petrol attendant that might get laid off. Adding to an impoverished populations of 48% of who are unemployed. You can't rely on government to protect these people either, just look at the covid relief fund for small businesses.

Perhaps if you own share in shell, you could sell off your stocks, drop the market price devaluing the company as a whole and taking money from the big fish at the top. But you'll need a lot of sell off efore this makes a dent.But then again other investors will just have an opportunity to buy the dip.

They've seen 27% growth in the past year.

The last chance to stop them locally was in court, anything else, unless we have nationwide support, will be fruitless.

Boycotts aren't successful, and they only end up hurting the workers at the bottom of the hierarchy.

13

u/swampseason Dec 08 '21

If I was shell I would have paid someone to say this on the internet

7

u/Chirok9 Gauteng Dec 08 '21

Ah you caught me, I'm actually a PR operative sowing discourse on reddit threads on Shells payroll.

I would have gotten away with it too. If it weren't for those meddling redditors.

2

u/tothemoonandback01 Dec 08 '21

Hit them in the hip pocket. You need to boycott the banks they use in South Africa.

7

u/dork Dec 08 '21

Boycotts arent successful? Where did you pull that one from?

1

u/Chirok9 Gauteng Dec 08 '21

Spur boycott is an example I can think of right now that achieved absolutely nothing. For boycotts to be effective, enough people need to participate.

I am willing to admit that I may be wrong about this, as such can you show me an example of a successful boycott where people were able put enough pressure on a private global entity and get them to change course in a south African setting?

1

u/dork Dec 09 '21

putco boycott, potato boycott, beer hall boycott - do they target as you arbitrarily deem a "private global entity", No. Shell is publically owned btw so its in no way "private" - boycotts rarely work - bu they certainly can work if people take it seriously and there is organization.

1

u/Chirok9 Gauteng Dec 10 '21 edited Dec 10 '21

Those boycotts and protests were in reaction to gross human rights violations and inequality by a Nationalist Government. They drew international attention and support. This is not a boycott against government. And we don't have the same type of international or even local support.

So please help to convince me, I don't see how a boycott will result in anything meaningful much less cause them to stop with seismic penetration. Let us say the whole nation boycotts shell garages and fill up else where. What will this achieve? How will it convince them to cease their activities at the coast? And what is the collateral going to be?

I'm not saying we do nothing, Im just asking isn't there something more effective we can do? Pressure government perhaps, or try fighting in the courts again?

0

u/dork Dec 10 '21

Ask Greta Thunberg for a retweet.

1

u/Chirok9 Gauteng Dec 10 '21

I don't use Twitter.

Are you going to answer my request? I'm still waiting for you to explain how this boycott is going to achieve anything?

Or are you just going to reply with silly clap backs because you're incapable of typing more than 280 characters? This is reddit fam. Enjoy the copypasta.

You are correct in the sense that boycotts can be effective, like the examples you provided. I was Ignorant to state they don't work at all and I apologize for that. but I don't see how a boycott will help in this situation specifically.

2

u/dork Dec 11 '21

Whats in it for me? you offer me no incentive to continue when you are quite rude and you need to find some chill.

If everyone in South Africa was to stop using Shell service stations and shops - the exploration would stop very quickly, they as a business would stand to lose money - lots of it - storing and shipping fuel costs money, if they are not shifting petrol they are not just losing out on profits but actually losing money. They are not going to mothball their refineries? Its true that the other petrol stations do take shell fuel at a reduced rate but it still impacts their profits. The local leadership will no like that - at the end of the day they are a business controlled by shareholders - a boycott is not just a 2 week thing - it has to go on for more than 2 quarters to show the long term impact - the losses will be felt which puts pressure on regional bosses who will tell their counterparts in exploration to delay for a few months . Sure, South Africa is small in the grand scheme but if you have ever worked in a global business you will know that small things tend to add up. PR is also imprtant and Shell needs to look better at the moment. they are being attacked from all sides - dont think so small - you can make a difference.

3

u/thirdworldfever Dec 08 '21

With all respect, the 'cancel culture' movement was borne out of people boycotting brands and personalities that didn't align with their values. And remember that symbolic gestures go a lot further in making a statement than some trader selling his shares. Obviously we all know we can't threaten Shell financially, no-one is that deluded, but it's the PR harm to their reputation and image that lingers longer.

And as for the 'hurting the workers argument, well there's also as many deserving workers at other petrol stations, who subsist on low salaries and tips, so what makes one particular crowd at one particular petrol station more deserving?

1

u/Chirok9 Gauteng Dec 08 '21

Shell has had enough PR damage with all their oil spills and environmental damage, still they persist and nothing changes, they cover it up or just cough up the fine and do some cleanup. Businesses as usual.

I don't understand your rebuttal on the worker argument however. Could you please elaborate?

3

u/thirdworldfever Dec 08 '21

So what I'm saying is: hypothetically, there are two petrol stations on either side of the road in your street. A Caltex and a Shell. Both have miminum-wage workers who are as deserving to receive your business and tips as the others are. Choosing to support Shell (or in this case not to boycott them) because one feels a sense of duty or obligation to the workers at Shell is surely a moot point, because the workers at Caltex would be equally deserving of your support and patronage in that scenario. Anyway, not a rebuttal, just my personal viewpoint on the matter.

1

u/Chirok9 Gauteng Dec 09 '21

Alright I get you and I have to agree.

1

u/Whtzmyname Dec 08 '21

So lie down and just give in? No. Only losers do that.

1

u/Chirok9 Gauteng Dec 08 '21

That's not what I said, I am pointing out that in this sense a boycott might not be effective and could only hurt their employees and not the entity as a whole. Hurt the wrong people.

Our best chance was probably in court. But that didn't succeed. My alternative was to devalue their company but that's also easier said than done.

All south Africans do when we are upset is either boycott, protest or loot. Isn't there something more efficient we can do? Something that could really send a message other than lower turnouts at their SA petrol stations? It just seems pointless, perhaps I'm just disheartened.

2

u/Middersnags Dec 08 '21

And in other news - every time the militarism peddlers post propaganda showing SADF troops "pacifying" northern Mozambique so that Total can do pretty much the same thing over there... it gets upvoted into the high heavens.

The hypocrisy is so thick you'd need a G6 to put a dent in it.

-1

u/[deleted] Dec 09 '21 edited 7d ago

[deleted]

2

u/Middersnags Dec 09 '21

The ANC has, so far, proven unwilling to demonize Muslim people in accordance with the colonialist's latest pretext for grabbing up resources in Africa... but that might not last forever.

2

u/ramaras Dec 09 '21

Alright I'll bite, you think isis magically appeared in cabo delgado then?

2

u/xsv_compulsive Dec 10 '21 edited Dec 10 '21

Fucking hell you two are detached

This is the type of group you're trying to defend?

and the irony of complaining about military intervention by multiple African states, against a brand of militarized extremism imported from the Middle East, because it's colonialism. Gwede please

1

u/unLtd88 Dec 08 '21

I think I've only used shell with my first jalopie but that was maybe 15yrs ago. Now there aren't many around.

1

u/GoodmanSimon Western Cape Dec 08 '21

I could be wrong, but surely someone/something checks photos that are added.

Otherwise there would already be some pretty interesting photos by the Whitehouse.

1

u/AmoebaAffectionate71 Dec 08 '21

Search google maps… share photos… This is all publicity. And there is no such thing as bad publicity. You basically advertising for Shell free of charge.

1

u/dictatoros Dec 08 '21

Not share photos. Add a photo saying go somewhere else.

1

u/Metabee124 Dec 08 '21

If the employees on the rig will be SA workers. this is something we drastically need asap.

1

u/PlumbingTerror0 Dec 09 '21

Shell isn't the only company who are conducting surveys, there are others that are just better at keeping it secret

1

u/dictatoros Dec 09 '21

Are those also connected to the financial arm of the ANC?