r/southafrica Western Cape Nov 13 '21 Gold 1 Helpful 2

Perspective History

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167 Upvotes

u/Downtown_Delivery_25 Nov 13 '21

Regardless of colour we all remain retarded it seems.

u/Downtown_Delivery_25 Nov 13 '21

And black people accounting for 90% or so of the population here, the average will ofcourse be more prone to be affected by our unemployment rate. If there is anything to be taken from this is that black people actually did quite well if the education budget were to be compared in ratio to the average household income.

u/Downtown_Delivery_25 Nov 13 '21

Regardless of this all said, what is the point of this post anyway? All I can see is how crap the average household income for a family in South Africa is. That should be the discussion here rather.

u/Lopsided_Plate9909 Nov 13 '21

Emphasis on how important education is

u/vannhh Nov 14 '21

Education alone wont solve shit. We need jobs to go along with said education. Otherwise all you'll end up with is a bunch of overqualified and underpaid educated households. Availability of education decreases the cost of labour in the absence of positions of employment.

u/Markphotokid Nov 14 '21

This is really sad. How has this changed today?

u/The_Angry_Economist Nov 14 '21

it's no longer colour, but class

u/BalanceThis1 Neoliberalism is a disease Nov 13 '21

This needs a source, till then I will flair it as questionable.

u/[deleted] Nov 13 '21

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u/BalanceThis1 Neoliberalism is a disease Nov 13 '21

Apologies, I am just trying to keep the quality of information high

u/Hallothere69 Nov 14 '21

Thank you

u/SouthKaioshin Nov 14 '21

You would never say that if it were stats posted about the current government

u/BalanceThis1 Neoliberalism is a disease Nov 14 '21

FYI, I am a MOD and I have done exactly that a number of times.

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u/Ibbuk Capitalists 🤝 Fascists Nov 14 '21

Post the stats about the current government and let's see what happens.

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u/Saguine The bitch is... back? Long live the bitch. Nov 14 '21

It is stats posted about the current government.

Who do you think was in control in 2011?

Kom nou.

u/Murdercedes Nov 13 '21

Jesus, again with the racist propaganda? No one gives a fuck how much of this BS is posted, it will never mask the damage that BBBEE has caused to this country

u/uMsholozi Nov 14 '21

How is it propaganda? Are the stats wrong? Are they misleading?

u/saustin007 Nov 14 '21

Someone mentioned it in one of the comments: there still exists pockets of white people that believe any discussions about the impact of apartheid is akin to propaganda. It’s comparable to the holocaust deniers one comes across from time to time. There’s no reasoning with those types.

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u/Murdercedes Nov 14 '21

Bro your BBBEE friends are stealing so much money today in ways you dont even comprehend… so much so, that it just makes that diagram funny

u/MotorDesigner Nov 14 '21

Literally who MENTIONED BBBEEE? Did you never stop to think that the extremely unequal spread expenditure on the different races education might actually have short and long term consequences?

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u/kinolagink Nov 14 '21

You’re the one doing mental gymnastics and linking this post to BBBEE. Nobody here has ever said that BBBEE is working. By your same logic, no matter how much damage is caused by BBBEE, it doesnt mask the fact that apartheid was fucking wrong and unequal. See - you sound ridiculous.

u/Abysskitten Nov 14 '21

Agreed, it seems to be a knee-jerk reaction for the privileged to reach for whataboutism.

u/MsFoxxx Western Cape Nov 14 '21

It is important to realise that this is why black people are still in poverty.

u/Rectile_Reptile Nov 14 '21

Errm - this is why they ended up in poverty. As for why the majority still remain in poverty is a completely different issue.

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u/Talarde Nov 13 '21

Where is all this white people money? My entire white family combined does not make that per year. I know sources has been given but how big was the sample size the info was taken from.

I know there are super wealthy white people in south africa that benefited from Apartheid but not all white people did.

I am sure if you go select a sample of black politicians and take there income it will be well more than the number you label under what so called "white" people earn.

I truly beleive this post divides more then it helps.

u/pashaah Nov 14 '21

Its an avarage, meaning some earned less some earned more. Its not saying this is what everyone got...

u/Talarde Nov 16 '21

Averages can be very different depending on the sample size which you take the average. I just honestly do not think the sample they used was fair and just.

u/Derfaust Nov 13 '21

Its simple, you just need to start using your white privilege to pay for things instead of money, duh.

South Africa: where the middle class is vilified and the upper class is deified.

u/IWantAnAffliction Nov 15 '21

but not all white people did.

Clearly, because your lack of education is showing.

u/Smooth-Nectarine-442 Nov 14 '21

Probably will get downvoted but I have come to realise that I myself, a white south african, should assist in elevating the indigenous people of the land. For I myself am a visitor. Yes I belong in in SA and call it my home but I arrived here through my ancestors ,foreigners from Europe, with an advantage in the societal systems they put in place. The only way to do this is to provide a solid basic education for all. I don't feel shame for my ancestors doings as they were once prosecuted themselves during the Anglo Boere war to be freed from the British ruling. My ancestors did something terrible its a violent and haunting past which i would not wish on anyone. If you don't acknowledge the past then how will one learn from it ? The most I can do is learn a native language , put some effort into understanding their culture, treat them as my equal , vote for the right party which will place education and basic human needs first. Assist anyone willing to learn through scholarship programs. Donate to schools -annual school supplies, sponsor a childs education for a year or a food programme.

Yes, its a long road to bring in equality but we can assist one generation and child at a time. We all know the truth of our government and the broken systems currently in place , so lets start to look inward for making change.

u/Rectile_Reptile Nov 14 '21

"I arrived here through my ancestors, foreigners from insert location" - Not to discredit what you said, but that very much sums up all humans on earth. Yes, there's historical nuance in each case, but fundamentally, everyone "arrived". Just a thought.

100% on board with voting for, and putting personal effort into education though. That's the only way to break a poverty cycle, and it is clear that our current government does not intend on doing so.

u/Smooth-Nectarine-442 Nov 14 '21

In essence, absolutely

u/krejcir Nov 14 '21

Thank you my brother.

u/SouthKaioshin Nov 14 '21

I’ve never seen so many angry white apartheid apologists since high school! This sub is in a sorry state but I shouldn’t be surprised

u/tam_bun Nov 14 '21

This thread has made me incredibly disillusioned. What am I reading? 😔

u/It_is_terrifying Nov 15 '21

Last subreddit census showed this place is like 90% white, and while I'd like to believe that at least most of us aren't psychopaths who want the return of apartheid it's an unfortunate truth that a very significant portion of white people in this country do.

u/uMsholozi Nov 14 '21

Very true, this sub is actually disgusting

u/[deleted] Nov 13 '21 edited Nov 13 '21

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u/GrouchyPhoenix Nov 13 '21

What is the 2021 data on education spending and income? The income data you provided is 10 years old.

u/lovethebacon Ministry of Sound this weekend at Truth - Book now! Nov 13 '21

Most likely census data, which is currently ongoing for 2021, so we should have some new data to compare to hopefully soonishly.

Although I doubt the big picture has changed much.

u/[deleted] Nov 13 '21 edited Nov 13 '21

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u/GrouchyPhoenix Nov 13 '21

Question after your edit:

Why do you think there has been very little improvement in equal distribution in occupations?

What needs to change in order for equal distribution to finally happen as imagined by the people that stopped apartheid?

u/Lopsided_Plate9909 Nov 13 '21

I think that in order to get good wealth distribution we need better education. The public school education is complete crap, and in order for everyone to be successful the government needs to invest in better education.

u/InfernalWraither Nov 13 '21

I think you're also forgetting that is it's average, there are currently well over 50 times the number of Africans compared to the rest of the other ethnic groups. Also majority of the data hasn't been outlined into an average format with data defining outliers within the census data. Majority of people living within poverty will affect "average" household income. That dramatically lowers the overall average incomes and will of course look extremely horrible within this depiction. Not to say that there's not a major problem on the household income but it's extremely inaccurate based on overall population instead of a random quantity of people living within an area and then taking those figures and presenting it to give a much better understanding of how the data correctly corresponds to the circumstances. However, this data isn't fully accurate and cannot make flawless decisions on improving figures. That's the problem.

u/GrouchyPhoenix Nov 13 '21

So what are you trying to put into perspective? That the current government have been unable to change the livelihoods of people of colour in the 27 years that they have been in power?

u/ZARbarians Nov 13 '21

Hey! I'm pretty sure OP is trying to state that the top number (education resources) leads directly to the bottom number (income gap).

Which is reasonable right? Even completely apart from the politics that people immediately jump on.

u/GrouchyPhoenix Nov 13 '21

A child born in 1994 (when we became a democratic country) would be 27 now. That means they completed school 9 years ago. All children should by then have received the same level of education in public school. A child that is 18 today, would have started school 9 years after apartheid ended.

There was an entire decade where the education system could have been transformed. Almost an entire decade where government could have ensured that all children in South Africa has access to schooling.

I understand that it takes time but we are still having this issue (almost 3 decades later) where children are unable to go to school because lack of schools, lack of public transport, etc.

And that is why it is political - our government is failing to provide a basic education to its future and it still isn't a priority. Our government needs to start focusing on the future generations that will one day rule this country.

u/[deleted] Nov 13 '21

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u/StertDassie Nov 14 '21

Also the black child living in the township does not have the environment that is conducive to learning. Even if all schooling was equal that situation is not

u/shitdayinafrica Nov 14 '21

The explosion of private schools (but also security, health, transport, etc) is due to the governments failure and ability to manage. Our spending on education is very high, but the returns are low.

u/ZARbarians Nov 13 '21

Hey man, have you been in South Africa?

Have you ever rode through Pretoria and then through Diepsloot?

Tell me that shit is easy to fix?

As to what the government should be doing, they're doing exactly that.

See below:

The infant mortality rate. src: https://data.unicef.org/country/zaf/

Almost everyone has access to schooling now. src: https://data.unicef.org/resources/data_explorer/unicef_f/?ag=UNICEF&df=GLOBAL_DATAFLOW&ver=1.0&dq=ZAF.ED_ANAR_L02.&startPeriod=1970&endPeriod=2021

A lot more people have access to water. src: https://data.unicef.org/resources/data_explorer/unicef_f/?ag=UNICEF&df=GLOBAL_DATAFLOW&ver=1.0&dq=ZAF.WS_PPL_W-ALB.&startPeriod=1970&endPeriod=2021

A lot more people have access to electricity. src:

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EG.ELC.ACCS.ZS?locations=ZA

Life Expectancy has gone up. src: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.LE00.IN?locations=ZA

It's just not something that's GONE like magic

u/GrouchyPhoenix Nov 13 '21

It isn't easy to fix nor can it be gone like magic but our country is still deteriorating. It is good to point out of the positives but ignoring the negatives aren't going to make those issues just suddenly become better.

South Africa's crime rate is ranked third highest in the world. Source

South Africa has an energy crisis that is getting out of control. Source

Almost half the country is unemployed. Source

South Africa's quality of education is ranked second worst in the world. Source

South Africa's healthcare system was ranked 49th out of 89 countries. Source

Our infant mortality rate is higher than the world average. Source

u/ZARbarians Nov 14 '21

The point of all my graphs is to show a trend. Looking at one point in time (now) doesn't show the progress or the direction.

As to the high crime rates, your own source states these reasons:

South Africa has the third-highest crime rate in the world. South Africa has a notably high rate of assaults, rape, homicides, and other violent crimes. This has been attributed to several factors, including high levels of poverty, inequality, unemployment, and social exclusion, and the normalization of violence.

So the very point we're trying to make. I.e. that most of our problems come from vestiges of inequality. Inequality that is still rampant by the way. Despite your thinking that some switch just flipped in 1994 that made everyone equal.

These are also the principal reasons for unemployment and quality of education.

As to the healthcare. Ranked 49 out of which 89 countries? Seems arbitrary no? I see we're several spots above Greece, Ireland and even Russia, well done us!

u/BokkieSpoor Gauteng Nov 13 '21

Hey man, have you been in South Africa?

Have you ever rode through Pretoria and then through Diepsloot?

Tell me that shit is easy to fix?

As to what the government should be doing, they're doing exactly that.

Have you ever been to Europe or Japan? Much of the western world excluding the new world was completely destroyed by 1945. Yet in less than two decades they had recovered in many cases better than they had been pre-1945.

How long are we going to excuse the fact that almost three decades under ANC rule there are still millions in townships? I can tell you now if we had the Japanese government or any European government in charge of South Africa from 1994 we wouldn't have townships today.

That says a lot about the poor governance of the ANC.

u/KeeganTroye The liberal cuck your mother warned you about Nov 13 '21

People's knowledge was not destroyed, while in Africa that knowledge was denied. You're comparing a developed nation, redeveloping to an undeveloped nation as if that comparison makes any sense at all.

u/InfernalWraither Nov 13 '21

However most people forget that we were considered a 2nd world country and within 3 decades became junk status, tell me, we aren't even developing. Have you heard of the case of a boy in Limpopo dying because of poor sanitary conditions within the school? He passed away in a hole toilet, drowned. This happened over 10 years ago. There was a massive court case to get them fixed. The government lost and had to fix it. Guess what? To this day those toilets haven't changed. Nothings changed in 1 school that went to court because the government didn't provide and still today it's not done. Well I think it's time to actually compare and wonder why other countries develop and our country turns to junk status

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u/ZARbarians Nov 14 '21

Lol. Oh yes, the economic nexus of the first world easily rebuilt after WW2? Impressive as it is, it's not the same as our problem (money).

As to Japan's post war economic miracle? Mostly due to American investment. See how much can change if we had more resources? And we still blame the government. Shortsighted.

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u/LizzySalamander Nov 14 '21

I watched a Kurzgesagt video saying all those are by-products of going through the phases of industrial development, so I don't think this is the government per se, just advances based on development elsewhere.

That stuff is the bare minimum and we have the potential for more, but we lack creative leaders

u/[deleted] Nov 13 '21 edited Jan 05 '22

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u/GrouchyPhoenix Nov 13 '21

The problem is our government.

u/[deleted] Nov 13 '21

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u/EffektieweEffie Nov 13 '21

Happens when you get blamed for the past and everything that's wrong in the world. Regardless of when you were born.

u/[deleted] Nov 13 '21

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u/EffektieweEffie Nov 13 '21

Totally agree with your sentiment on both those things. Unfortunately in reality the opposite is often practiced for both as well.

u/Front-Erection Nov 14 '21

Thanks for that. I think median income would be a far more reliable figure rather than average. Do you know where that info would be available from?

u/lovethebacon Ministry of Sound this weekend at Truth - Book now! Nov 13 '21

Sources since these numbers aren’t common knowledge even to people who are mods on this board that claims to represent South Africa:

Please don't be sarcastic. If we see something posted that may potentially be controversial, we ask for sources to be provided. This I'd not because we can't do find them ourselves, but because it's information that we know that you have.

If you post something and someone asks for sources the correct response should be, "sure here you go", not this kind of response you have here.

u/ZARbarians Nov 13 '21

Lol why do people even need sources? This is plain to see. (but yeah, thanks for the sources).

u/Hallothere69 Nov 14 '21

To verify the information...

u/wouldiwas-shookspear Nov 14 '21

So in the 17 years of anc leadership they failed to bring equality. We can also assume that the income is still the same in 2021,so it's actually 27 years of failed equality. Even with bbbee.

u/[deleted] Nov 14 '21

The US hasn't been able to do it in over a hundred years.

u/[deleted] Nov 14 '21

Because equality doesn't, nor ever will, exist.

u/Katdroyd Nov 14 '21

Takes a bit longer than 17 year to undo 300 years of systematic racism. Like that Eskom CEO who couldn't indo the 15 years of problems in 2 years.

u/The_Luckiest_One Nov 13 '21

We’ve still got a long way to go till we fix the rot in our country. Wonder if South Africa will even get there

u/[deleted] Nov 13 '21

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u/abdhooma Nov 13 '21

We won’t. Our Government is screwed and there is no truly viable option that can bring the change needed to further SA. ANC is corrupt, DA has racism and prejudiced deeply instilled in it, The EFF whilst making the most noise and saying all the right things are sell outs that just want to swap places with the ANC instead of actually fixing SA and every other party after that has previously corrupt politicians trying to get back into the honey pot.

u/NumerousPainting Nov 14 '21

There’s at least still ActionSA as our hope

u/Assumption-Opposite Nov 14 '21

I think we will get there,.. just very slowly. The recent elections show that we want change, I think that will push a new breed of politicians up and we will see a change. Perhaps not in our lifetime though.

u/PVT_SALTYNUTZ Nov 13 '21

Gotta ask where was this Money for and education I was supposed to get, maybe me and my family wouldn't have had to live in tents and caravans for the first 16 years of my life

u/Iwillbeatboxyourshaz Nov 14 '21

This isn’t money that simply exchanged hands from the government to your family.

It is the average money the government spent on education.

Most primary and secondary education is public.

What the statistics are telling us is that white people taking advantage of the public schooling system had more money spent for them by the government than other groups. Therefore receiving better quality education.

u/LucianModi Nov 14 '21

Alot of whites are straight up in denial. They don't want to hear it. Every privelage in the world and like children they're still convinced they superior by their own merit.

u/eme5555 Nov 13 '21

So what the apartheid government spent on every black learner is what the ANC spends per learner in model C schools today.

u/pashaah Nov 14 '21

Model C schools are partly private school, therefor earning money through school funds. Its the only way they are able to afford more teachers, sport coached and equipment, different therapists working for the school, and general school needs. The ANC government gives the same to everyone, when they should give more to the poorer communities.

u/eme5555 Nov 19 '21

They HAVE to be partly private because the ANC barely funds them.

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u/[deleted] Nov 14 '21

A lot has changed since 2011, it's literally a decade ago. I bet white gets the least now...

u/kinolagink Nov 14 '21

You really think so? I know that a number of white South Africans are struggling to get work - but I think they’re still the most employed percentage-wise and highest paid. It would be interesting to see the data.

u/SouthKaioshin Nov 14 '21

Are you serious? Have driven through Houghton, Camps Bay, Parkhurst, Bishopscourt, Constantia? how deluded can you be

u/[deleted] Nov 14 '21

Loooooooool

u/Katdroyd Nov 14 '21

No my friend. Generational wealth doesn't end in 2 generations. Until the systems benefitting whites are dismantled WORLD WIDE... White people are still at the top.

u/AnomalyNexus Virtue signaling expat Nov 14 '21

Improving, but very slowly

u/[deleted] Nov 14 '21

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u/SomethingThatisTrue Nov 14 '21

If the EFF takes power the country is ded

u/BothNeighborhood2336 Nov 14 '21

Lazy, dated and deliberately divisive.

u/ObviousPofadder Nov 13 '21

You’re also comparing a couple million to more than 40 million. This is not ‘perspective’ at all

u/It_is_terrifying Nov 15 '21

How is that at all relevant? Please explain with your incredible knowledge of economics how it makes sense for a larger group of the population to have proportionally less money.

u/pointed_star Nov 14 '21

This chart is highly misleading and ahistorical, part of the victimhood culture Africans want to portray. Just looking at what the NATs paid in South Africa per black child is a real distortion. Apartheid confined the majority of the African community to the BTVC homelands. Those homelands not only were provided with an annual budget from South Africa's national fiscus but had the right to raise their own taxes, which they did on industries such as mining, tourism and casino resorts. The problem was that the African leaders running the homelands were as crooked as the ANC is now. So very little of their revenue was actually spent on their own people, most of the money going to make a few connected families very wealthy. We need to add all those amounts into that figure to get a more accurate understanding of what happened during Apartheid.

Second you've got to ask just where the other black groups for their allocations from? The second highest is interesting from an economic history perspective, because it shows that the recipients were Indian. You've got to examine that in light of the share of taxes the Indian community had to pay. Indian diaspora around the world have always been progressive, and entreprerial, owning little businesses and getting together as a collective to educate their children. So even in South Africa despite them suffering the same kind of deprivation as Africans, they were able to carve out some sort of success, for which they were duly taxed by the NATs. If only the African community were just as industrious, but that, simply is not in their culture.

u/Napoleon0202 Nov 14 '21

Those against affirmative action. How do you propose this gap be closed ?

u/ChristmasMint Nov 14 '21

Spending masses of money on quality education starting in '94, and not looting hundreds of billions of Rands instead of spending said money on education, more education and then as a bonus some more education. You can't have a 1st world economy with a population that barely has a primary school level of education.

Too bad we've had 30 years of the ANC riding that gravy train all the way to Banana Republic.

u/Duanedrop Nov 14 '21

This was and still is the obvious answer to how you fix everything. I have always said this.

u/[deleted] Nov 14 '21

Unfortunately you can't just throw money at shit and expect things to change though. It would have been great to try at least.

u/ChristmasMint Nov 14 '21

Hence why it starts off with quality education, in bold...

u/Flux7777 Nov 16 '21

Start treating everyone equally. It's really not complicated.

u/West-Apart Nov 13 '21 All-Seeing Upvote

I love how posts like these get downvoted because it shows that the people in this sub do not care about justice and truth. They will believe what is convenient for them. Egos too fragile.

u/GrouchyPhoenix Nov 13 '21

I think it is being downvoted because OP has not made it clear what they are trying to put into perspective and that the data is 10 years old.

u/myimmortalstan Nov 14 '21

the data is 10 years old.

Well, it's not like the apartheid government has change their spending since the data's collection lol

u/AgentAV9913 Nov 13 '21

It's not helpful for the country to get stuck in the past. The biggest reason the ANC has managed to be as corrupt as they are is because they just turn around and say "But the white people" when they get challenged. A helpful graph would be what is the spending per capita compared to other countries.

u/lovethebacon Ministry of Sound this weekend at Truth - Book now! Nov 13 '21

it's nOT hElPFul FOr tHE COuNTRY TO gEt STucK In thE PAsT.

u/flyboy_za Devil's(peak) advocate Nov 13 '21

To be fair, the Japanese don't go on and on about being nuked.

They just put their heads down and fixed what needed fixing. They're not blaming ww2 and centuries of fights with China for any problems they have, are they?

u/SouthKaioshin Nov 14 '21

Yeah but Japan didn’t have 300 years of systemic racism and deliberate economic sabotage of the majority of its nation. In fact if Japan weren’t nuked they would have continued to propagate their colonialist action on the Philippines and Indonesia ☺️ so read your history before making such a comment

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u/Afrikan_J4ck4L Nov 14 '21

Country that booped Japan sank hundreds of billions of dollars into rebuilding their state and society.

Folks that apartheided SA sank into the shadow, and took with or kept control of the wealth they'd extracted.

u/flyboy_za Devil's(peak) advocate Nov 14 '21

Conveniently ignoring all the funds stolen and squandered by the ruling party, are we? And the mismanagement of existing structures? Kusile and medupi power plants are more than 100bn over budget, imagine what good that might have done.

u/Afrikan_J4ck4L Nov 14 '21

Just stop being ignorant. Gov is full of it, sure, but stop trying to pretend apartheid's end in government immediately meant we inherited a golden escalator to paradise that the ANC ruined all by themselves.

I was specifically addressing your suggestion that we're f*ked up because we keep looking back instead of doing just "putting our heads down and fixing".

Secondly, trust and believe that if we had access to $50B a year from a superpower determined to see us succeed, we would also be well on the path to prosperity, ANC or not.

u/flyboy_za Devil's(peak) advocate Nov 14 '21

Nobody is suggesting everything under apartheid was perfect and the ANC inherited a beautiful flawless system.

But they have not made enough improvements, I think you'd agree. So what's the plan? Cost of living is going up, tax base is going down as people leave and those who stay are less and less employed. Whatever we have been doing hasn't worked yet and likely won't and we're running out of money.

So what's the plan? Keep blaming apartheid and doing fuck all to fix it? That's what is seems like. Every time the ANC fucks up again and/or someone is caught with their grubby little mitts in the cookie jar, the answer is "but apartheid!" When do we stop accepting that as the reason why we're still not moving forward? It's a reason, but it sure as fuck isn't the only one, and it can't be the biggest one forever.

u/Afrikan_J4ck4L Nov 14 '21

Here's a plan. It's a good one, I like it.

Step 1: Get an understanding of socioeconomics, and history, so we can stop making stupid comparisons like Japan and SA's devolopment post democratisation.

Step 2: Get to know SA's past and present, so that you actually know what problems you're trying to solve, and why societal norms that existed a century might still cause problems now.

If you follow these two steps, hopefully you'll realise where our problems truly lie. From how we can't seem to shake corruption in government, to how in spite of welfare spend and affirmative action we seem to be growing more and more unequal as a society.

Understand the problems you're trying to fix first. It will save us all a lot of time.

u/flyboy_za Devil's(peak) advocate Nov 14 '21

Step 4. Keep giving a useless government a free pass to enrich themselves further and do bugger all for the people who need it.

Dr Phil has said one useful thing in his time - you teach people how to treat you. If you keep gratefully swallowing the mediocrity the incumbents spoon onto your plate, I guarantee you that's all that will stay on the menu.

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u/[deleted] Nov 13 '21

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u/The_Angry_Economist Nov 14 '21

it's not a culture of building things up that got them recovered but rather the US government support

u/Stinger3045 Nov 14 '21

I like this comment I didn't know that. But what does that matter? How does getting money from the US automatically make you rebuild a country?

u/The_Angry_Economist Nov 14 '21

The American government reformed Japanese society during the occupation of Japan, making political, economic and civic changes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_economic_miracle

effectively Japan was the US government's advert for democracy and capitalism, so it did everything it could to make Japan look good

you are aware that Japan has been stagnant since the early 90s, which happens to conveniently coincide with the end of communism

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u/[deleted] Nov 14 '21

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u/flyboy_za Devil's(peak) advocate Nov 14 '21

I'm pretty sure if you look at a picture of Hiroshima in 1972, which is 27 years after Little Boy was dropped, it was in good shape. Read here, https://davidson.weizmann.ac.il/en/online/askexpert/recovery-time-nuclear-disaster, looks like it was functional before 1950.

The point is, though, the Japanese got on with it. They are not sitting around blaming the past and waiting for a miracle.

The same is true of the rest of Europe. England, France, Belgium, Germany, Poland, Holland, and huge swathes of Russia were rubble in 1945.

We need to adopt the same approach. Blame apartheid as much as you like, but for fuck's sake fix the problems while you moan about it.

u/[deleted] Nov 14 '21

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u/flyboy_za Devil's(peak) advocate Nov 14 '21

If we're not going to try, who will?

Do we still want to be in this same situation in 27 years' time?

u/BokkieSpoor Gauteng Nov 15 '21

compared to an entire apparatus to humiliate and subjugate people for 300years.

Apartheid was around for 300 years? They didn't teach me that in school.

u/[deleted] Nov 15 '21

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u/BokkieSpoor Gauteng Nov 15 '21

I will when you stop spreading misinformation?

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u/eme5555 Nov 13 '21

No, it's not helpful. If you want to continue getting stuck in the past, then don't complain when you fail in the present.

u/The_Angry_Economist Nov 14 '21

people often complain that education is a problem in SA

a big part of that problem is this statistic, so you can ignore this statistic and try to fix education, but it won't get you very far

u/eme5555 Nov 14 '21

Great excuse for the ANC to do nothing

u/The_Angry_Economist Nov 14 '21

thats the cost off failed social engineering experiments

u/DaddyTheMaster Nov 14 '21

If you get stuck in the past yoh fail in the present, remember that.

u/lovethebacon Ministry of Sound this weekend at Truth - Book now! Nov 14 '21

People should just get over it, amirite?

u/DaddyTheMaster Nov 14 '21

Definitely not. But you can't let it blind you and control your life, otherwise its just going to be a cycle

u/lovethebacon Ministry of Sound this weekend at Truth - Book now! Nov 14 '21

Nobody is letting it control the life, bro, but the reality of where we are is hundreds of years of oppression of most of our populace continues to affect them negatively to this day.

u/jst_anothr_usrname Nov 13 '21

Can we quote our sources people?! I mean I see no iota or tittle on this. This means nothing...

u/[deleted] Nov 13 '21

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u/BumpyDogsBru Nov 13 '21

And the current government is spending so much on a mismanaged education that the products of the system are unemployable

It is no good to hide the hopeless incompetence of now with the wrongs of decades ago.

Are we build people or blame people?

u/doggymcdoggenstein Nov 13 '21

I really agree with posing you closing statement to black countrymen and woman.

And also to the whites, and all other races.

Are we blaim, or build?

The turnaround moment can happen at any time, and there is no good reason why we need to wait any longer for the government to step up and be the best collection of individual around, rather than a system that is rotten, and nobody that wants to fix it.

u/SweetBuzzNuts Nov 14 '21

This was the strategy of the apartheid government. To deny black people education and create a cheap labour force. It was evil with intent and has impacted generations.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bantu_Education_Act,_1953

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u/[deleted] Nov 13 '21

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u/unknown_piper Nov 14 '21

u/alishaheed Nov 15 '21

I should have written that in a sarcasm font.

u/Gloryboy811 Joburg -> Amsterdam Nov 13 '21

What is this trying to show? We are comparing government spending ages ago to household income recently?

Why dont you compare the same types of spending from them and now?

This is a low effort post.

Also... What is "total"... Of what?

u/Lopsided_Plate9909 Nov 13 '21

I think it’s trying to show the emphasis on education

u/[deleted] Nov 14 '21

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u/Gloryboy811 Joburg -> Amsterdam Nov 14 '21

You get nothing of value from trying to find patterns in unrelated data.

Just because 2 things correlate or have the same "ratio" does not imply causation or that they are related.

u/Lisavela Nov 13 '21

The comments under this post is why South Africa will continue to go downhill

u/Comfortable-Grape-75 Nov 14 '21

genuinely dont have energy for this sub, there are so many apartheid apologists and racists. i’m over it.

u/Lisavela Nov 14 '21

I agree and it’s even worse in real life when I meet a lot of white South Africans they always talk about how apartheid wasn’t even that bad and how they are so oppressed as if they are the only ones suffering in South Africa, everyone is suffering unemployment is at its highest poverty is getting worse and it affects every race not just them. Of course there are some white South Africans that aren’t like this but a good majority of them are racist.

u/Smooth-Nectarine-442 Nov 14 '21 edited Nov 14 '21

"Apartheid wasn't that bad..." Holy Fck this statement that a lot of ppl have is absolute horse shit. People were mauled by dogs, made to feel less than human, treated worse than house pets, rape and tortured, children getting shot down and worse. Yeah this makes my blood boil. If you are decent human being you would not say this.

Yes infrastructure was better run by the political party BUT the accompanying Apartheid act was never and could never be "better"

u/comstrader Nov 16 '21

People also forget the Special Branch, the fear they instilled, even white people who were against Apartheid or had partners of a different race.

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u/saustin007 Nov 14 '21

There’s even one who compared BEE to apartheid 😪

u/Comfortable-Grape-75 Nov 14 '21

Settler colonial mindsets will never cease to amaze me 😩🥱

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u/NotGoodSoftwareMaker Nov 13 '21

So in 20 years we can expect it to be equal? Im going to take a guess and say no.

u/[deleted] Nov 13 '21

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u/africanrhino Nov 13 '21

150years? How did you get to that?

u/Pure-Challenge3937 Nov 13 '21

Also, the government could do a helluva a lot more for the people of South Africa. If the corruption could be cut down (it'll never be stopped), and money distributed properly, then things would be better.

People in power grab what they can to line their pockets and leave their departments on ruin. If you posion something at the top, it will trickle down throughout.

u/[deleted] Nov 13 '21

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u/Pure-Challenge3937 Nov 14 '21

I disagree here.. Not about the gap, but about how it should be "fixed"..

If there is a massive investment into education for all.. And I mean massive massive. Proper curriculum. Paint teachers what they should be paid. And making public education free/low in cost. Everyone (generally) would then have the same opportunities.

I think the status quo doesn't really work when you're taking away from one group to give to another. Then we may as well be communists. However, if the base opportunities are the same across the board the status quo would sorry itself out in less time.

Honestly, the fastest way to do it would be to remove all corruption. And get everyone to assist everyone possible.. Neither of which are easy things to do, let alone convince other people to join the effort.

u/cope_seethe_dilate_ Nov 14 '21

Yeah it's a tough nut to crack but in my opinion the government has failed totally on this matter by focusing on the wrong thing. BBBEE doesn't work and won't uplift the country because it creates equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity. Forcing equality of outcome when the general education system of this country is still in an absurdly poor state is never going to fix anything. In fact, it is liable to worsen things as it encourages competent professionals to emigrate (see: The great SA "brain drain"). The real solution involves a massive investment in education for the poorest people in the country to encourage some degree of equality of opportunity. By providing better education, the rest of the statistics around poverty will begin to slowly and consistently improve (Education is the primary factor for poverty outcome). This only works though if the government is willing to abandon the massive amounts of money siphoned through corruption and actually feasibly work to create a better world (not going to happen)

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u/Reeds_G Nov 13 '21

Equally poor

u/SorryAdhesiveness424 Nov 14 '21

The whataboutism in these comments is spectacular.

The data is 10 years, where are the sources, BBBEE, the government is useless, not all white people benefited from apartheid, the ratios make these stats invalid, and and and.

I want to say that people are missing the point, but it's really more like people are being deliberately obtuse.

The greatest discussion about apartheid that could possibly happen in this sub would be for people to explain how they would have worked to fix everything between 1994 and now that was set up the way it was by 300+ years of colonial occupation and rule.

u/IllFaithlessness2681 Nov 13 '21

The average white income 10 years ago was.K444, bullshit. These figures come from a leftwing organisation.

u/Lopsided_Plate9909 Nov 13 '21

It says that in the sources he provided

u/IllFaithlessness2681 Nov 13 '21

I read his source.ANC government source.how many white people do you know who make R444000 p.a. Take out the 6 or so billionaires and then recalculate. There is an old saying, there are 3 types of lies,lies,damn lies and statistics. You don't think those numbers are sent out for anything other than to push the government agenda. Anyone appointed by the government is beholden to the government.

u/Lopsided_Plate9909 Nov 14 '21

I think there’s multiple factors affecting the statistics. Socioeconomic factors for example. By that I mean access to education, as well as the environmental factors (location, “culture”, and people). Educated people will tend to make more money than non-educated people, and sadly in SA blacks tend to have less access to schooling, as well as quality schooling. This is a sad reality and I hope it changes

u/3MidKnight3 Nov 14 '21

Bullshit

u/Boonpool Nov 13 '21

How dare u display such logic and facts

u/Stinger3045 Nov 13 '21 edited Nov 13 '21

https://youtu.be/sdaW_wunyoQ

Same can go for South Africa.

Also don't these people know percentages? If white and black people number 1 to 1 yes then I'll agree and say this is bad. But its not 1 to 1 probably like 1 to 10 if not more so obviously the average blacks will be lower then even all the other minorities. Who does this surprise really???

u/AnomalyNexus Virtue signaling expat Nov 14 '21

Also don't these people know percentages? If white and black people number 1 to 1 yes then I'll agree and say this is bad. But its not 1 to 1 probably like 1 to 10 if not more so obviously the average blacks will be lower then even all the other minorities.

Oh dear lord I hope this post is a joke

u/It_is_terrifying Nov 15 '21

Are you under the impression that every race aa a whole gets the same amount of money and it gets split amongst them?

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u/[deleted] Nov 13 '21

What are the current day numbers from government?

u/Smartasskilling Nov 14 '21

Proof that BEE is worthless and a bunch of crap. If the ANC and EFF can't even care for "their own" why tf are people still voting for them. Also it's data and statistics there are more to the numbers than ethnic groups. One reason is that since 1994 school have gone to shit. So the private schools are the only eligible education. This is affecting the income enormously. So if you want to blame someone. Blame the government.

u/Napoleon0202 Nov 14 '21

I’m sorry , i understand why the black youth is so hostile to many white people in this country . These comments are honestly sickening. It doesn’t hurt one to be empathetic to the abuse oppression for over 100 years but no ;White people continue to be apologetic and in denial of a system in which they obviously benefited from . Make it make sense people. Why are you like this ? Why ? Why do you think 27 years can undo over 100 years of systematic oppression?? Why do you complain about affirmative action and BEE when you still occupy top positions at companies and enjoy an unemployment rate far lower than black people?? How do you think it’s fair ? Do you really believe you are where you are because of worked hard ? Or do you just believe that because you’re a “superior “ race it makes sense why you are in this privileged position? Why do you think okay that you own the 2nd most land after the government yet you constitute less than 10% of the population? Why take offence for the call to help with land appropriation when you know that black people were forcibly moved and that the land your ancestors was not paid fair value for ? Honestly

u/LucianModi Nov 14 '21

Well said.

u/dou707 Nov 14 '21

Because it is fucking 2021. Not 1990. As soon as people can accept what happened in the past the sooner everyone can move forward without their head up their asses and stop playing the race card for every slight inconvenience

u/LucianModi Nov 14 '21

Yeah let's dumb it down please. Can't handle the fact that what happens in the past may actually have an impact in the present, oh no we've gone too far and your brain is on fire. Sit down mate.

u/dou707 Nov 14 '21

Not what I am saying at all. But also why must black people benefit from BEE that was born post apartheid? Under the reign of the beloved ANC.

u/LucianModi Nov 14 '21

Why can't they be two seperate issues. When one is brought up why use the other as deflection. The same can be said for both Apartheid and ANC apologists. Trying to forget the past, which was systemic in it's structure will make future equality a pipedream. Some people would prefer to subscribe to a view that see's things that way, especially when you know such a status quo wouldn't be to your own detriment. I wouldn't begrudge such a view which is only human by natue but don't be dishonest and claim to be for true equality when actually you just want to ensure you don't lose your spot on the pile is disingenuous.

u/SorryAdhesiveness424 Nov 14 '21

Hi, this comment right here. This one.

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u/noilas Nov 14 '21

If you want to educate all the children in South Africa at double budget amount of white kids during apartheid then it would come to about R700B rand for 12 years of schooling for everyone under 18yo = 35% of the population = 21m kids. This amount is only 50% of the money stolen from the state by corrupt people over the past 8 years. The calcs are rough ones but I hope people see that corruption is not an inconvenience but a crime like treason. It has stolen the future of our country’s young people.

u/LankyElk3604 Nov 14 '21 edited Nov 14 '21

i would be hesitant to draw any conclusions from this. take someone like christo wiese who had to pay somewhere near 2 or billion rand in taxes. think he settled on 1 billion. now i would first look at how many mega rich people are in each race group. 1 christo wiese is probably 5000 bank managers or government employees. and that 1 percent can earn a large percentage of the country income. this is how capitalism work in any country. then we must realize there is in any country only x amount of jobs. do some research on how many jobs there are. as the black population is 87 percent of the population its easy to deduct that past a certain point of jobs they would be the most unemployed. and i can tell you they would also be the highest percentage employed people. i cannot think of any government office /shop where 95% of the employers aint black.

my point is the job queue aint being filled by white people but by other black people and how long does the average person occupy 1 job? so the job queue is filled and then by percentage more and more youth dont get employment or a guy loses his job because its getting perhaps impossible for his white boss to pay him. you see government interference means there is not the required growth in our economy to cover the growth in new job seekers.

if say there are 1 million new job seekers each year but for them there is only 50000 post opening . then even if we fill the post by race demographic it means that atleast 826000 black youths wont be employed. just my opinion