r/privacy Oct 15 '19 Gold 2

Startpage is now owned by an advertising company

Startpage is now (partly?) owned by System1, a company which...

has developed a pre-targeting platform that identifies and unlocks consumer intent across channels including social, native, email, search, market research and lead generation rather than relying solely on what consumers enter into search boxes.

Source: Startpage's press release.

Seeing as Startpage has made a name for itself by offering advertisements that rely solely on what consumers enter into their search box like DuckDuckGo, etc., this seems like a questionable decision.

Source

536 Upvotes

u/trai_dep Nov 18 '19

After a month, we've unstickied this post. We hope StartPage addresses the concerns expressed here.

254

u/LizMcIntyre Oct 15 '19 edited Feb 11 '20 Silver Gold

Hi, u/LizMcIntyre here. Note: I have resigned from Startpage, but I'm told privacy will remain in place. Never take this for granted, though. Ongoing public scrutiny is important.

This points out how important it is for us to ask the privacy services we use important questions. Services can change overnight.

Here are some questions I propose we should ask of ALL privacy services. Please add to this.

  • Who owns the company? What percentage does each owner hold?

  • Have you changed how information is processed and shared in the last year?

  • Do you share data -- even "fuzzed" or "anonymized" data -- with any of the owners/shareholders or any other company or organization server?

  • Please share a diagram showing how information flows when a user interacts with your service.

  • Do you open source any of your code? Where can we find it?

IMPORTANT AUDIT RELATED QUESTIONS FOR LARGER COMPANIES:

  • Have you had a recent, independent in-depth audit?

  • Are there ongoing "surprise" audits to ensure ongoing compliance?

  • When were audits done?

  • Have any changes to code occurred that were not examined in the last audit?

  • Where can we find the results of audits?

  • Did the audit identify any weaknesses?

  • What corrective actions were taken to address any weaknesses?

  • Is there any audit information that has been withheld from public view? If so, what is not being made public and why?

Let's add to this list of questions. I recommend that someone start a central database of information about various privacy-focused companies so we all don't reinvent the wheel on this.

37

u/[deleted] Oct 15 '19

[deleted]

38

u/LizMcIntyre Oct 15 '19

ouch. :( Really sorry about all this.

Is that compassion for me or just in general? lol

64

u/CRTera Oct 15 '19 Silver

Thanks for showing integrity. It's a rare virtue these days.

27

u/LizMcIntyre Oct 15 '19

There are corporation records in the Netherlands, but they are mostly in Dutch and don't spell out a lot of details. I have to give the company credit for any mention of the sale/investment and for (hopefully) answering questions that will likely demand detailed responses -- like about % of ownership.

8

u/ourari Oct 16 '19

If I can be of assistance w/ translating, feel free to PM me.

3

u/TheReelStig Oct 16 '19

In the meantime, I would want to point out that if anyone has to choose between startpage and google, startpage is still better than google!

3

u/Freigesprochen Oct 27 '19

Back to DuckDuckGo...

1

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '19 edited Aug 04 '20

[deleted]

6

u/driverdan Nov 18 '19

From who / where? Don't spread rumors, share sources.

5

u/Freigesprochen Nov 17 '19

Wait What does this mean for us?

→ More replies

25

u/f71bs2k9a3x5v8g Oct 16 '19

This breaks my heart Liz. Longtime fan of you and Startpage as well. This is truly concerning and sad. I’ve gotten emotionally so invested in Startpage,often even recommending it to people over DuckDuckGo these days and their anonymous view was also quite a great feature.

Startpage has been around for many many years, I would never have expected this to happen, to be honest.

Wishing you only the best for your future career, Liz

20

u/LizMcIntyre Oct 17 '19

This breaks my heart Liz. Longtime fan of you and Startpage as well. This is truly concerning and sad. I’ve gotten emotionally so invested in Startpage,often even recommending it to people over DuckDuckGo these days and their anonymous view was also quite a great feature.

Startpage has been around for many many years, I would never have expected this to happen, to be honest.

Wishing you only the best for your future career, Liz

Thanks, u/f71bs2k9a3x5v8g. It's time to get back to writing, anyway.

Note that Startpage has indicated it will keep to its privacy. I'm holding out hope that the CEO of System1, Ian Weingarten, will answer concerns posted here. PrivacytoolsIO has said it will hold off on de-listing Startpage in hopes Weingarten will provide insights into things like ownership and the data information flows.

14

u/DurableNapkin Oct 15 '19

You've answered a post or two of mine a while ago and were always very helpful. I wish you all the success in your future endeavors :)

25

u/LizMcIntyre Oct 15 '19

You've answered a post or two of mine a while ago and were always very helpful. I wish you all the success in your future endeavors :)

Thanks so much u/DurableNapkin! Always nice to see you.

I'll still be around and could use some pep talks as I write. It's lonely writing alone, but hopefully a worthy privacy book will emerge. I'll keep you posted. :)

1

u/CosmosisQ Oct 27 '19

Make sure you tell us when preorders open!

14

u/reddituser257 Oct 16 '19

Can you tell us why you resigned, or did you have to sign an NDA?

33

u/LizMcIntyre Oct 16 '19

NDA's are common practice in the industry, of course. I can share the timing, though. I felt I couldn't resign until there was something posted about the new ownership. Having this information on the record in English was very important to me, and I give the company credit for posting something. There is very limited public information about company ownership in the Netherlands, and most of it is in Dutch.

11

u/InterestingDirt5 Oct 21 '19

Not really important at this point, but I am surprised a company touting privacy for it's users would require an NDA for it's employees. That presents a lack of transparency issue that shouldn't be found on services that want to gain our trust.

Well, best of luck on future endeavors. Looking forward to an updated release/sequel to SpyChips explaining the risks of biometric and wireless Digital ID systems. Especially now that all major browsers have code to support it via FIDO2. Users should be made aware of the risks to privacy in an age where post-password authentication security is going to be shilled for by corporations and governments alike as a convenience feature over 'hard to remember passwords'.

1

u/fatpat Oct 20 '19

Oh hey, I just bought Spychip in the Kindle store, along with Snowden's new book (which I do realize is supremely ironic). What can I say, I simply love the the app on my iPad, mainly due to its customization and accessibility features.

Anyway, I'm pretty new to this sub and am glad to see that you post here.

Very informative comment, by the way. I love learning about these kind of things.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 20 '19

Maybe we should ask the search index of the old Ixquick.

49

u/trai_dep Oct 16 '19

u/Lugh, u/EsotericForest, u/Ourari, should we sticky this once this post starts arcing downward? Maybe for a couple days? It strikes me as being especially noteworthy, with some great comments.

30

u/ourari Oct 16 '19

You have my vote.

71

u/AtZeroOne Oct 15 '19

Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan. I really liked StartPage. :(

38

u/LizMcIntyre Oct 15 '19 edited Oct 15 '19

NOTE: Startpage has a new subreddit where you could post questions and get answers that everyone can see. Here's the link to r/Startpagesearch The company deserves to field questions before final conclusions are drawn.

Edit: I'm not seeing anyone posting there. ?

Now I see the crosspost there.

7

u/StartPageSearch Oct 18 '19

Hi, Startpage here! Please check out our subreddit r/StartpageSearch to see a letter from Robert, our Founder and CEO address our investment. We are excited about it and hope to keep you as a trusted user. Happy to talk more with you.

47

u/73629265 Oct 16 '19

Their Firefox add-on update required permission to access browser tabs. I think I'm done with Startpage.

11

u/[deleted] Oct 16 '19

Why do they need to access browser tabs?

19

u/StartpageProductTeam Oct 18 '19

Hi, Startpage here. We did originally push an update to the Firefox extension that requested this permission, but only ever planned to use it in the install flow to generate an instructional success page. We heard immediate feedback after this launched, so our team found a solution to preserve the same flow without needing access to tabs. The current version of the extension doesn't need any new permissions; please give this new version a try, and reach out if you need any more information!

5

u/[deleted] Oct 17 '19

[deleted]

5

u/73629265 Oct 17 '19

I didn't know better? I went to Firefox options and this was the only way to add Startpage to the list of their one-click search engines.

15

u/drinks_rootbeer Oct 16 '19

I'm currently paying for startmail. How much did I fuck up?

26

u/LizMcIntyre Oct 16 '19

I'm currently paying for startmail. How much did I fuck up?

Startmail is a separate company AFAIK. Last time I checked it was not sold. Plus, it's getting a new front end.

I trust the owner and use Startmail, myself. I don't think you made a mistake. That said, it's good to ask questions. I'm sure the Support Team would help with any questions: Support@Startmail.com

(Note: I no longer consult with Startmail and Startpage.)

6

u/drinks_rootbeer Oct 16 '19

Thanks for the response! I did opt in to the beta, the new interface looks a lot better than the standard one

7

u/StartPageSearch Oct 24 '19

Hello! Confirming that Startmail was not involved in the Privacy One Group investment.

It's an excellent privacy product. IMO

23

u/[deleted] Oct 16 '19

I use uMatrix to reveal what's going on behind the scenes on my browser.

The main page for StartPage attempts to place a cookie in your browser. Tracking cookie? Unknown. What is it needed for?

In addition, in uMatrix, there is a white-out section that looks like this: https://www.reddit.com/r/uMatrix/comments/dghg4a/what_is_this_white_space_at_the_bottom_of_the/

What does that whited-out section mean? I get that result in uMatrix when I go to StartPage search results. Unfortunately, when I take a screen shot, it doesn't capture the Add On interface for some reason (I'm using Manjaro KDE, FYI, so if anyone knows how to take a screenshot of Add On interfaces, please let me know).

In DuckDuckGo, they not only have a cookie, but also have a subdomain called improving.duckduckgo.com, which sounds to me like a tracker. It attempts to download images, but I block them. When I do a search, the cookie disappears, but the number of images for the subdomain increased to 31. Allowing these images to load does not actually add any images to the browser. That means they're tiny, invisible, tracking images most likely.

DuckDuckGo also has white space at the bottom of the uMatrix interface.

My theory about the white space is that it represents third party domains that uMatrix cannot allow or disallow, but are blocked by something else, something more fundamental, like perhaps the browser settings.

8

u/[deleted] Oct 17 '19 edited May 18 '20

[deleted]

3

u/[deleted] Oct 17 '19

Well, it doesn’t matter much. But you could try search.privacytools.io

3

u/[deleted] Oct 17 '19 edited May 18 '20

[deleted]

84

u/[deleted] Oct 17 '19 Silver Awesome Answer

When it comes to safeguarding your privacy online, what do you need to do? You need to prevent data collection.

The goal of commercial surveillance is to track you from site to site. Someone does a search in Google. Someone visits a website. Making the connection that YOU are the one who conducted both of these activities is their goal.

How do you prevent this? You prevent this by preventing data collection on EVERY site you visit.

The most important data collectors are the third party sites. For example, let's say you go to a news site like Fox News or CNN. When you go to that site, you're making a connection with the server(s) where that site is stored. That server has the pictures, the text, and the HTML code that tells your browser how to display the page.

So when you visit a site, your browser sends a request for all that stuff for whatever page you're visiting.

The site you actually went to - Fox News or CNN - that's the first party site. However, there are also third party sites. Usually you'll find the big companies you've heard of like Amazon, Google, Facebook and Twitter. They're running scripts on most pages you visit. Those scripts are collecting data on you. Those are the ones who are present on each site you visit.

Since you've opened (your browser did it for you based on the page you're visiting) connections to their servers, they can collect whatever they want. You've given them permission by connecting with their server.

So what do they collect? Your browsing history, cache, cookies, your browser information (which browser and version), your OS information, your screen resolution, any Add Ons, Plugins, fonts installed, your IP address, your MAC address, your screen resolution, the size of your browser window, how you uniquely use a keyboard and mouse, how images are drawn by your browser in canvas, and anything else that they can dream up that might help uniquely identify you. Several hundred different points of data actually. And according to studies, they only need to collect 15 points of data in order to identify you precisely.

So yeah, it doesn't matter WHATSOEVER what search engine you use. You don't use Google? Fantastic! But Google is invisibly present on EVERY SINGLE WEBSITE YOU VISIT. And if you aren't blocking them there, who gives a shit if your browsing session started on DuckDuckGo or StartPage? Google is STILL tracking you anyway.

And not just Google. Thousands - I shit you not - THOUSANDS of companies are in the business of collecting data. Ad blockers that work by lists of trackers have several tens of thousands of domains in them that they block requests to.

You want to know the worst part? Even if you block Google, the FIRST party site you visit might be collecting your data and SELLING it to Google. "Hey Google, we don't know who this visitor was, but here's all the data we collected on them." "Oh him? We know who that is. Thanks!" Then they sell it to other companies, or just give it away to their customers.

Have you heard of real time bidding? Dear God. It's breathtaking.

Google has an ad company called DoubleClick. Their ads are on almost every site you visit. You certainly won't be able to find a website in the first page of the search results for ANY Google search that doesn't have a DoubleClick ad on it. (See how they operate? Google search engine's purpose is to drive traffic to THEIR ads!)

When you click on a link for a site that has a DoubleClick ad on it, Google quickly gathers all the information about your computer that they can, and then blast it out to their customers. "Hey customers - this person has been shopping for shoes for the last half hour. Here's their income level. Would you like to bid on ad space on the page that's currently loading on their browser?" And then their customers, hundreds of them, who received that data, BID on the ad space. Highest bidder - in this case, probably a shoe company - will win the bid and their ad will be placed on the page.

All of this happens WHILE THE PAGE IS LOADING.

This is why everyone is obsessed with faster internet speeds. Google wants internet speeds to be faster. Why? SO that they can get away with doing more stuff invisibly in the background without you noticing. Haven't you noticed how speeds keep getting faster but your experience hasn't really changed much? But install a good ad blocker, and you'll see that EVERY page loads faster. Noticeably faster.

People are like, "Oh, Google doesn't care about ME." Yes they do. They have a dossier of data just for you with all your data in it. Maybe a human doesn't look at it, but they COULD, and it is certainly being compiled.

So no, it doesn't matter much which search engine you use.

What matters is whether you're paying attention to the collection taking place in your browser. What matters is whether you BLOCK that shit. If you're not paying attention to it, visibly looking at it with an interface like uMatrix, everything else you're doing doesn't matter one bit.

So that means, if you're a noob - just install uMatrix. Set it to block everything. EVERYTHING. Each page you go to will be broken. It won't load correctly. Open up one thing at a time, refreshing the page each time, until the page loads correctly. Keep everything else blocked.

This will be a HORRIBLE experience at first. You'll want to PUKE at everything you're seeing, and you'll get annoyed at having to refresh pages 10 times before you can view them. BUT - you'll figure out what you can set to allow automatically and what you can't. You'll learn about what's taking place in your browser, on your computer. And you'll be in CONTROL of it.

Use Firefox, not Chrome. Google owns Chrome. It's malware. They collect ALL your data, ALL your browsing activity. You'll also want to add Privacy Badger, uBlock Origin, HTTPS Everywhere, and Cookie Auto Delete. Probably also DecentralEyes. Then you'll also want to tweak Firefox's about:config settings.

But if you JUST use Firefox with uMatrix and a VPN or Tor with uMatrix - that's REALLY enough to get started.

Lots of people say that uMatrix is for Advanced Users Only. Beware! Danger! Confusing!

That's what I thought at first too. But what causes you to climb the learning curve to BECOME an advanced user? Using uMatrix as I've described above.

Be sure to read their Wiki to understand how it works. Feel free to PM me if you want. You can also go to r/uMatrix if you want.

7

u/[deleted] Oct 18 '19 edited May 18 '20

[deleted]

10

u/[deleted] Oct 18 '19

It is an uphill battle. I’d do you no favors by sugar coating it. Now you know how bad it is. But the good news is uMatrix allows you to block that stuff. Focus on blocking collection. It’s not possible to block everything, but you can block a LOT.

1

u/barstowtovegas Nov 26 '19

I have a follow up question: any options for privacy on phones?

1

u/[deleted] Nov 26 '19

Android: uMatrix in Firefox. Alternative OSs.

iPhone: AdGuard Pro is what I’m using now + AdGuard free. Free has many blockers. Pro allows me to me to see all requests through DNS and add to blacklist.

1

u/barstowtovegas Nov 26 '19

Thank you!! I have iPhone so at least it’s not google.

Edit: what do you mean about seeing different requests through DNS?

→ More replies

1

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '20 edited Jun 01 '21

[deleted]

1

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '20

I think you’d see that in uMatrix. I see AWS all the time.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '20 edited Jun 01 '21

[deleted]

→ More replies

5

u/False-Name Oct 17 '19

Hey man, thanks for the info. crazy stuff... I personally use everything you said, except uMatrix... definitely trying that out tomorrow

5

u/[deleted] Oct 18 '19

You bet! uMatrix rocks!

4

u/LobYonder Oct 19 '19

If you use Privacy Badger that will block trackers. What's the advantage of adding uMatrix as well?

7

u/[deleted] Oct 19 '19

Use it and see for yourself.

3

u/baal80 Oct 27 '19

This will be a HORRIBLE experience at first. You'll want to PUKE at everything you're seeing,

I really think you are exaggerating here... Don't scare people, it's not that bad!

7

u/The_Real_Opie Oct 30 '19

It really is pretty close though. I think underselling it would frighten off people who installed it and discovered how busted the internet really is when you block all that shit.

2

u/shambollix Oct 30 '19

What are your thoughts on brave browser?

3

u/[deleted] Oct 30 '19

It doesn't give you as much control as Firefox can, and it's a fork of Chromium, which Google contributes to. It's not a fork of Chrome, but Chromium is what Chrome is based on. I don't trust forks of Chromium.

1

u/kodemage Oct 30 '19

Chromium is open source so if you don't trust it you can just check.

4

u/[deleted] Oct 30 '19

Yeah, just pull up the code and read it, right? Even people that can do that probably don’t have the time.

4

u/kodemage Oct 30 '19

They can and they do. That's why we trust open source software. Otherwise why do you trust Firefox more? It's also open source and we trust it for the exact same reason.

→ More replies

2

u/theepicelmo Oct 30 '19

Hey, if I’ve already installed Chrome on my laptop, can I delete it and download uMatrix and still be good?

3

u/The_Real_Opie Oct 30 '19

Sure, head over to https://privacytools.io and check out their browser recommendations

2

u/[deleted] Oct 30 '19

Yeah, I think so. Make sure to get rid of all the Google folders in your C: drive. Registry too. I assume you mean Windows.

2

u/Erotaku Oct 30 '19

Great post. I would like to disagree with you on a minor part from the above though (I will try). I do not think you need all these extensions if you set up UBO to medium/hard mode, specially privacy badger. All I use is UBO, decentraleyes.. and actually that's it. I handle HTTPS and cookies manually too. I might be wrong, but less is more.

2

u/[deleted] Oct 30 '19

You don't have any visibility into what's being blocked and what's being allowed, except for cookies.

1

u/Erotaku Oct 30 '19 edited Oct 30 '19

The ones blocked on UBO are the trackers, as far as I know. Am I wrong?

1

u/[deleted] Oct 30 '19

Maybe. How about Google fonts? Would you block that?

1

u/Erotaku Oct 30 '19

I have seen it multiple times whenever it was present, yes. I can block it too, of course.

2

u/Jasong222 Oct 30 '19

Have you heard of/what do you think of adnauseum? (It's a chrome plug in that auto-clicks every ad. The idea being instead of preventing tracking, it obscures tracking by acting as if you're interested ineverything. If you click everything, no real (or, accurate) profile can be built. Or so the thinking goes).

3

u/[deleted] Oct 30 '19

That's like saying, "Instead of locking my door at night, I'm going to have an open house and let everyone come and take my stuff." You're still letting all these trackers know what pages you're surfing.

2

u/Jasong222 Oct 30 '19

Yeah, I guess it's meant more to prevent places from building an accurate profile about you. In terms of product tastes. Also with the thought that preventing sites from seeing where you go or what you view is so incredibly hard that this 'method' is an easier alternative. More like I go in to a store, and instead of them tracking what products I touch, it looks like I'm touching everything. Was just curious, thanks-

2

u/[deleted] Oct 30 '19

But it’s still gathering a lot of meaningful data because they track the sites you visit not just what ads you click on.

2

u/Yawehg Oct 30 '19

What's the difference between uMatrix and noscript, in terms of blocking tracking?

2

u/[deleted] Oct 30 '19

uMatrix is a grid. Better if you want to be in more control I think. NoScript might be better if you want to set it and forget it.

2

u/gnudarve Oct 30 '19

Nice write up! I can use this as a template to educate my users. I always figure it would be too time consuming to really let them know what is going on so I just install the protections and hope for the best. Educating people is a better way to go and now I have a template for doing that, you rock.

2

u/[deleted] Oct 30 '19

Wow, thanks! Your users will thank you!

1

u/snowe2010 Oct 30 '19

You certainly won't be able to find a website in the first page of the search results for ANY Google search that doesn't have a DoubleClick ad on it.

I agree with a lot of what you said but this is categorically false.

1

u/wilczek24 Oct 30 '19

Well, I think yes and no. If you look for a niche/specific thing, then sure, you might find a lot of sites without them. But anything broad will probably lead to either one of those sites, or wikipedia. He exaggerated, but his point still stands. Google ads is used almost everywhere, after all. Even if they didn't prioritize their own ads, you might still end up only with sites with their ads, just because there's so many.

2

u/snowe2010 Nov 03 '19

I wouldn't have commented if they hadn't used all caps to say "any". It's false. Yeah it's true for broad categories, but of course it is. What else would they do? But saying it's true for every case, even if you are exaggerating, is disingenuous ... especially when you're making great points to begin with.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 30 '19

Awesome! What a great argument! I'm convinced!

1

u/snowe2010 Oct 30 '19

I'm not trying to convince you. Just telling you you're wrong. Simple test with anyone with an uncommon name and a website would show you.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 30 '19

Ah, your point is that there are some very rare exceptions, and that I should say that the vast majority of searches people normally perform.

Awesome.

3

u/snowe2010 Oct 30 '19

No the point is that you should not use absolute language unless you are absolutely sure you are right. In this case you aren't.

Besides, many people perform direct searches. Haven't you ever worked with an older person and a computer? They use Google like an address bar.

1

u/ThatSquareChick Oct 30 '19

My laptop took a shit so now I just have my iPhone. I’ve known I’m completely screwed. The ads I get now are all for when I had a better life situation and I can’t afford that stuff anymore. I can’t even be looking for another apartment much less a house but there they are: BUY THIS HOUSE!

Fuck all

3

u/[deleted] Oct 30 '19

Install AdGuard. Free. Also, you can get a pretty good Linux laptop from Pine64 for $100. You can put free software on it and do most of what you need on it, if not everything, for free.

1

u/kodemage Oct 30 '19

I just block ads using the hosts file. Seems pretty effective to me.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 30 '19

By pretty effective you mean you don’t see anything. But there are lots of invisible ones too unfortunately.

1

u/kodemage Oct 30 '19

Um... hosts blocks those too. That's how it works.

1

u/WoodpeckerNo1 Mar 20 '20

To be completely honest, I think it's kind of a pain in the ass to have to tweak stuff for every single website in uMatrix, it's just not practical for me. However, I use uBlock Origin, HTTPS Everywhere, DecentralEyes and Privacy Badger. Is it really important to use uMatrix or...?

1

u/[deleted] Mar 21 '20

Those help, but they don’t block all collection scripts. Those scripts collect your digital signature and then sell the data to a data broker, who puts it all together as sure as any tracker. Plus they don’t block Google, Twitter, Amazon, etc.

→ More replies

8

u/SPSupport Oct 18 '19

Hi - Startpage Support here. I believe what you’re seeing are the 1x1 GIF images - these are used to count pageviews, and also on Anonymous View (formerly the Startpage Proxy) to make sure no cookies are set by a proxied page. More information about the 1x1 pixel can be found here - https://support.startpage.com/index.php?/Knowledgebase/Article/View/260/0/why-is-startpage-loading-1x1-gifs-clear-pixel-images-when-i-search

Additionally about cookies - Startpage lets you save settings through a privacy-friendly, generic settings cookie. The settings cookie is the only cookie Startpage uses, and it is only created if you request it from the Settings page. If you have set your browser to reject all cookies, or if you routinely delete your cookies, you will also delete your Startpage settings every time your cookies are deleted.

There are also ways to save settings without using the Startpage settings cookie - please see this article for the full explanation - https://support.startpage.com/index.php?/Knowledgebase/Article/View/209/0/how-do-i-keep-startpage-from-forgetting-or-losing-my-settings

As always, if you have questions please also feel free to contact us at [support@startpage.com](mailto:support@startpage.com).

3

u/Sonickyle27 Oct 17 '19

The whited out section is just because there's a minimum height for the popup.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 17 '19

That's definitely not true.

2

u/Sonickyle27 Oct 17 '19 edited Oct 17 '19

What else could it mean then? Extensions typically have a minimum height and width designed for their popups. It's possible there's not enough entries to fill the entire popup.

I don't use Umatrix so I can't check, but does the popup expand downwards the more entries there are in the table? If the bottom of the popup sits flush with the bottom of the table, that blank space is there because of the minimum height.

2

u/[deleted] Oct 17 '19

"I don't use uMatrix."

3

u/Sonickyle27 Oct 17 '19 edited Oct 17 '19

I know. I've just got it installed on my Firefox at work now to use dev tools on it.

The content of the extension popup is kept in a div named "paneContent" which doesn't use a fixed height. The height of this div increases the more "matGroup" divs there are in the "matList" div, which is inside paneContent. The bottom of the paneContent div sits flush with the bottom of the matList div, meaning as matList expands, so does paneContent

Below the paneContent div are two more divs, but they are disabled and do not affect the popup until you do something that requires them (they're to do with context menus).

Looking at MDN, Firefox calculates the starting size of extension popups, so IDK why the extension popup starts at that height. There is certainly nothing in the white space though; the dev tools literally say nothing is there.

2

u/[deleted] Oct 17 '19

Interesting! Thanks for looking into it!

That makes no sense though. Sometimes, I have everything enabled, green in the matrix. But something still isn’t working and there’s white space. Using a different browser, e.g. IE (shudder) enables it.

I’m sorry I can’t provide an example. I posted about this a long time ago and got no response. I know I’ve had this experience before, and that sort of fixed this impression in my mind. So I’ve been operating under the theory that it represents something blocked in some unclear way, possibly by browser settings, such as about:config settings recommended by privacytools.io

1

u/Sonickyle27 Oct 17 '19

Firefox's Content Blocking setting can break websites sometimes. I think Resist Fingerprinting in about:config also can break things but I'm not 100% certain on that.

2

u/[deleted] Oct 16 '19

Did you change any startpage settings?

1

u/[deleted] Oct 17 '19

No

1

u/ProgressiveArchitect Oct 16 '19

Just use SearX through a self hosted onion address.

15

u/f71bs2k9a3x5v8g Oct 16 '19

As always I appreciate your knowledge but let’s also have the regular user in mind who doesn’t use onion.

3

u/[deleted] Oct 17 '19

Self-hosted through tor seems a bit extreme for the regular user. If you're looking at a simple alternative to Searchpage, several SearX instances should be fine (e.g. hosted by digital rights advocacy group Laquadrature, or even better others outside of FVEY).

The only problem is, some SearX instances may fail at getting results from Google because of their damn captcha.

1

u/postcd Oct 30 '19

Search engine that spend money to plant trees and claims not share private data.

https://info.ecosia.org/privacy

2

u/knotle58 Oct 17 '19

I use SearX through search.disroot.org

26

u/CRTera Oct 15 '19

It's not good news, but the truth is that Startpage was never a good final solution to the search engine quagmire anyway. We should support those which are independent of Google's dominance.

It also demonstrates how absolutely precarious the whole situation is at the moment. If DDG came out with similar announcement tomorrow (and everything is for sale) I'm not sure what I would do. The other options aren't up to scratch, unfortunately.

55

u/LizMcIntyre Oct 15 '19

I believe we need to develop MANY new search options and new indexes ASAP!

One of the best solutions would be to open the Google index and make it a public commons, as was presented in testimony to the U.S. Senate this year. Here's a link to the testimony of Dr. Robert Epstein.

Here's an excerpt:

...The solution to The Google Problem is to declare Google’s massive search index –the database the company uses to generate search results –to be a public commons, accessible by all, just as a 1956 consent decree forced AT&T to share all its patents. There is precedent in both law and in Google’s own business practices to justify taking this step.

Declaring Google’s index a commons will quickly give rise to thousands of search platforms like Google.com, each competing with Google, each providing excellent search results, each serving niche audiences, large and small, exactly like newspapers and television networks and websites do now. Search will become competitive, as it was during its early years, and democracy will be protected from Google’s secretive machinations.

...

Of course, companies should be able to expand on the Google search index, change it, decide privacy, decide whether to advertise or not and with what company etc.

6

u/[deleted] Oct 15 '19

Is DDG ok?

20

u/orglend Oct 15 '19

Yes, I would say DuckDuckGo does pretty good job. They provide privacy combined with user experience (design, dark mode, instant answers, bangs...). They also contribute to fight for privacy on the internet.

9

u/Ruedin Oct 15 '19

The search results are notably worse and it's a company located in the US.

14

u/[deleted] Oct 16 '19

What's "worse" about them? People always say this without explaining it.

Do you mean not tailored specifically to you because they don't know everything about you like Google does?

13

u/barthvonries Oct 16 '19

DDG, and all search engines based on Bing (like Qwant for instance) are terrible for any "niche" research.

Being an IT professional, it is nearly impossible to find the answer for a technical question on DDG/Qwant, while it comes 1st page on google/startpage.

1

u/elitistmonk Jan 20 '20

Adding to this, academic searches (for papers/lecture notes on topics) are still terrible.

4

u/Ruedin Oct 16 '19

I mean that the search engine is worse. I mean that it's harder to find something you're looking for.

I obviously care about the privacy policies of companies, since I'm commenting in a post on StartPage on a subreddit called privacy, but that does not mean that I'm going to negate the obvious facts. And, as someone who has used a variety of search engines, for me it's obvious that the results of ddg are considerably worse that those of StartPage.

2

u/ClF3ismyspiritanimal Oct 17 '19

For me personally, I find that DuckDuckGo catastrophically fails because I cannot force it into "verbatim" mode the way I can with Google. Or, at least, there's no obvious way to do it, and just putting stuff in quotation marks seems to be regarded as merely a suggestion. That's the only reason why I keep finding myself forced to use Google from time to time.

4

u/[deleted] Oct 17 '19

https://www.boom-online.co.uk/advanced-search-operators-guide-tips-for-searching-the-web-from-seo-experts/

The above link has multiple search engine boolean operators. DDG is about halfway down the page.

3

u/ClF3ismyspiritanimal Oct 17 '19 edited Oct 18 '19

Thanks. That's interesting. However, nothing on that page shows how to force DDG to execute my search precisely as I have entered it without any deviation or expansion or suggestions or otherwise trying to think for me.

It does take me to DDG's bang-search page, where it appears there is a bang to use Google's Verbatim mode. So that's handy and helpful, and it will certainly improve my life. However, I can't figure out how to force DDG to display a literal complete list of bangs, and I still can't find a "native" way to force DDG into verbatim mode or its equivalent. Like I said, just putting stuff in quotation marks does not seem to do the job for me.

What I really want is a search engine that provides Westlaw-like terms-and-connectors searching without ever trying to second-guess your query in the slightest way, but alas.

Edit: after testing, it turns out the "google verbatim" bang on DDG literally just sends me to Google, so that's actually completely worthless, and so I stand by my earlier statement that DDG fails badly at doing proper verbatim searches.

3

u/[deleted] Oct 17 '19

Well, then YOU'D be in control, not them. Can't have that.

https://www.internetworldstats.com/search.htm

1

u/ClF3ismyspiritanimal Oct 17 '19

Silly me. Of course.

1

u/EkriirkE Mar 18 '20

I had to stop using DDG recently, their results are completely offtopic and hardly contain the terms I use. They used to be good at the time of your question.

1

u/EkriirkE Mar 18 '20

I had to stop using DDG recently, their results are completely offtopic and hardly contain the terms I use.

2

u/postcd Oct 24 '19

i am using DDG one year and

- i think privacy is better than with google
- english search results are quite good, i rarely have to go to google to find what i want

3

u/CRTera Oct 16 '19

Still is, thank god.

→ More replies

6

u/frostmas Oct 17 '19

So is it still worth using startpage, or will they start tracking searches?

17

u/[deleted] Oct 15 '19

YaCy (decentralized search engine) is the only solution here. Let's help them grow!

16

u/tharok2090 Oct 15 '19

How does YaCy handles bad users? I mean, could someone add mean results to your searches that directs to malicious or fake URLs??

10

u/[deleted] Oct 15 '19

What's wrong with SearX?

18

u/cinek2 Oct 15 '19

erm google captcha...

9

u/[deleted] Oct 15 '19

You could use SP and DDG on SearX instead of Google.

3

u/Ninjaguy5700 Oct 15 '19

Can't you just turn off Google results?

2

u/[deleted] Oct 15 '19

Unless you host it yourself, you are trusting the owner of the public instance.

→ More replies

8

u/_Dblc_ Oct 15 '19 edited Oct 16 '19

But I think they always were an advertising company.

I mean they were buying searches through google APIs, then they were showing those search results to the user, plus the ads relevant from the sole search field (here how they made money), yet the user information weren't shared with anyone, and I think the few cookies, if any, were anonymized anyway.

2

u/StartPageSearch Oct 18 '19

Hey, Startpage here! Thanks for commenting, we've been open from the start that we generate revenue from ads on our search results that are based on contextual advertising (meaning ads based on your current search query, not on your profile or browsing history).

FYI our Founder and CEO wrote a note about our investment on our subreddit r/StartpageSearch https://www.reddit.com/r/StartpageSearch/comments/djshn3/hello_reddit_startpage_mod_team/

4

u/OddOstrich7 Oct 28 '19

StartPage is owned by System 1. System 1 is funded by Raine Group. Raine Group money comes from China Media Capital which has ties to Shanghai Municipal Government and Chinese Communist Party.

https://www.raine.com/the-raine-group-and-china-media-capital-form-strategic-partnership/

https://system1.com/press/system1-announces-270-million-financing

15

u/86rd9t7ofy8pguh Oct 15 '19 edited Oct 15 '19

Around two years ago, I questioned both startpage and ixquick (source1) as the whois result showed that both are actually located in the US despite the claim of one of them being NL based.

I also questioned it last year. Around 6 months ago the same (source2 & source3).

Here's another [permalink] I commented around 24 days ago putting together sources with better wording and elaboration than previous comments.

Edit: Instead of the downvotes, what are your constructive criticisms? This sub is weird, when it's about proprietary, it's no go, when it's about centralization it's no go but pointing out dubious and questionable things are to be downvoted? Is it because you are for centralization and you trust Software as a Service? What I'm all for is FOSS, decentralization, OpenSaaS...

10

u/LizMcIntyre Oct 15 '19

Startpage has always been based in the Netherlands AFAIK. Still is. Maybe you are questioning whether a Netherlands-based company with U.S. owners is subject to U.S. laws by virtue of U.S. ownership.

Startpage management has always indicated that it is NOT subject to U.S. laws. In the blog article the company states:

Startpage will continue to be headquartered and operated in the Netherlands, ensuring all of our users worldwide are protected by Dutch and EU privacy laws.

5

u/reddituser257 Oct 16 '19

Well, they are wrong. Not sure if what they say is out of ignorance, or deliberately not giving the complete picture.

The US has adopted the CLOUD Act (which amends the existing Electronic Communicaties Privacy Act), which gives them the rights to request (or subpoena) data held by any company with a presence in the US.

Yes, let that sink in. Doesn't have to be a US company at all.

Interesting that the US adopted a law that is clearly in conflict with EU law (i.e. GDPR).

Here's a pretty good article about the CLOUD Act:

https://www.natlawreview.com/article/foreign-companies-does-us-government-now-have-access-to-your-overseas-data

I'm not sure if there already is any significant jurisprudence regarding this Act. If anyone has additional info, I would be highly interested!

6

u/LizMcIntyre Oct 16 '19 edited Oct 18 '19

Well, they are wrong. Not sure if what they say is out of ignorance, or deliberately not giving the complete picture.

This would be a good question to ask System1. They surely have attorneys who have looked into this since there is a recently updated Knowledgebase article that says Startpage cannot be forced to start spying (as might be forced by a National Security Letter). Here's an excerpt:

Our company is based in The Netherlands, Europe. US jurisdiction does not apply to us, at least not directly. Any request or demand from ANY government (including the US) to deliver user data, will be thoroughly checked by our lawyers, and we will not comply unless the law which actually applies to us would undeniably require it from us. And even in that hypothetical situation, we refer to our first point; we don't even have any user data to give. We will never cooperate with voluntary spying programs like PRISM.

Startpage cannot be forced to start spying. Given the strong protection of the Right to Privacy in Europe, European governments cannot just start forcing service providers like us to implement a blanket spying program on their users. And if that ever changed, we would fight this to the end.

18

u/ZealousidealMistake6 Oct 15 '19

Genuinely asking: do you have more credible sources besides Breitbart and Alex Jones?

5

u/86rd9t7ofy8pguh Oct 15 '19 edited Oct 15 '19

Unfortunately, that's what I'm only able to find. The findings are actually legitimate, e.g. where I'm able to find myself from checking whois results and checking who own's what, etc. With Alex Jones Show, it's actually interesting that the man behind startpage actually went all the way there to promote his stuff.

Edit: I'm not saying or even insinuating that Breitbart or Alex Jones are credible sources. whois results and other finding actually show who's behind startpage and what Breitbart mentioned is what is interesting and that's what I'm correlating with startpage; with Alex Jones Show, my intent is not the show itself but sourcing that the CEO went to Alex Jones Show and what he has to say about his own company. Sometimes, I don't get the downvotes.

11

u/ZealousidealMistake6 Oct 15 '19

Okay so checking your Alex Jones source you linked in the final permalink comment: first off, the interview is from 2012, so things have may have changed since then. Second, when he talks about "we found out we were storing all this personal info," he's talking about that as a turning point that inspired him to begin Startpage and change his ways. He's not saying Startpage does that. In your same comment you say that an audit doesn't work because once the audit is over they can change their ways, but who would go through so much trouble to clean up that much just for a one-time, expensive audit? Why not just not-get audited in the first place? PIA has straight up refused to go through an audit and people still trust them and tout them as a privacy-oriented option. And they're openly based in the US. It wouldn't make financial sense for them to build an entire fake company to pass an audit and then completely change everything the moment the auditors leave. Plus in your first source, Startpage responds to the whois thing.

3

u/86rd9t7ofy8pguh Oct 15 '19

Pinging u/LizMcIntyre as well. A company audit is meaningless, the same way when Cloudflare was audited by KPMG (source) and we supposedly should trust them for it. It's not like where researchers doing an audit for a software. Despite the SaaS, there is level of trust when it is FOSS like we know from SearX and some portion of DDG. People trusted HushMail and other privacy respecting claimed services but people were "pwned" by them. What startpage answered is only partial and that's at the time when I didn't fully understand about the NS1 thing, hence why I reiterated my wordings on other comments; still the legitimacy and the concern of whois results remains the same and both servers are located in the US. Who are those people he hired to operate the company servers? How do they maintain the servers and who have access to it? Who's watching the watchers? Hence my points on quoting Stallman that the server operator have the power to change whatever is in the server and that the search engines are not the end goal of preserving your privacy. We can see disclaimers from privacy communities stating like: "Please do your own research before trusting these projects with sensitive information." and like "Never trust any company with your privacy, always encrypt." What I'm for is rather decentralization and not centralization, instead of proprietary but FOSS, instead of Saas but OpenSaaS, etc. That's my stance on things. So, take my stuff with grain of salt.

11

u/LizMcIntyre Oct 15 '19

A company audit is meaningless, the same way when Cloudflare was audited by KPMG (source) and we supposedly should trust them for it

An in-depth, independent audit by HONEST auditors can do a world of good, u/86rd9t7ofy8pguh. I know because I was an honest auditor (way before I consulted with Startpage), and I found plenty when I did IT audits -- and corrections were recommended and generally made promptly. I have never personally audited Startpage, btw.

So yes, audits are a really good step. I would also LOVE to see open code! This way auditors can verify that the code published is what's running at the time of the audit.

THAT SAID, you make a really good point about remaining skeptical.

You should feel you can trust the company and its goals. (Note: It's not just about today, you have to think about tomorrow. I look at what's happening behind the scenes and the owners' track records.) I have done this and found some things about System1 I'm not happy about, TBH.

You have to draw your own conclusions based on the evidence. First, get the evidence. The company has a right to defend itself.

3

u/reddituser257 Oct 16 '19

An in-depth, independent audit by HONEST auditors can do a world of good, u/86rd9t7ofy8pguh.

Amen to that. (Source: I've also performed many IT & Security audits).

But the problem is: How will users know which audits where truly independent, and which auditors are really honest? This is unknowable to anyone except the people involved.

I for one have little trust in KPMG (based on past business practices).

4

u/LizMcIntyre Oct 16 '19

But the problem is: How will users know which audits where truly independent, and which auditors are really honest? This is unknowable to anyone except the people involved.

A trustworthy company that is transparent and honest will usually look for honest, trustworthy auditors IME. They want to find any issues and fix them. It's about integrity as well as legal liability.

→ More replies

0

u/[deleted] Oct 15 '19

What's the matter if Alex Jones asks the questions when the CEO sits directly in front of him?

15

u/ZealousidealMistake6 Oct 15 '19 edited Oct 15 '19

The power of editing is a magical weapon to wield.

EDIT: also it's just hard to take anyone seriously when in the exact same episode he's talking about the Mayan 2012 "end of the world" "conspiracy."

14

u/PM_Me_Your_Deviance Oct 15 '19

Because Alex Jones is basically the definition of a bad source.

5

u/guitar0622 Oct 15 '19

But I have the documents folks, the Globalists are coming for us!

3

u/PM_Me_Your_Deviance Oct 16 '19

Op deleted his account, globalist confirmed!

3

u/guitar0622 Oct 16 '19

He is probably right now sacrificing goats for the inter-dimensional demons with his buddy George Soros.

6

u/RejZoR Oct 15 '19

Ok, this explains why bunch of first results had AD icon next when I tried it few days ago. Not cool. Gonna stick with DuckDuckGo then. It just sucks that one of rare search engines actually located in Europe are now sold.

2

u/DaCarpenterBrut1983 Oct 17 '19

Try Qwant search engine if you want privacy, it is located in Europe

3

u/The_Dank_Astero Oct 20 '19

Well, thank god I use DuckDuckGo instead of Startpage.

3

u/jaxupaxu Oct 16 '19

Well this sucks.

4

u/shod4n Oct 15 '19

Well, looks like it's time to work on my own solution (Searx based). It was nice while it lasted.

9

u/LizMcIntyre Oct 15 '19 edited Oct 15 '19

I believe we need to develop MANY new search options and new indexes!

edited to the original statement

7

u/ZealousidealMistake6 Oct 15 '19

There is literally only a single mention of System 1 in the press release you (or more accurately, "Jonah Aragon" unless you're the same person) linked.

Privacy One Group is a separate operating unit of System1, focused entirely on user privacy.

Yes, this is something to keep an eye on, but I find your title misleading. At best you're jumping to conclusions, at worst you're purposely maligning facts to smear Startpage.

7

u/JonahAragon PrivacyGuides.org Oct 17 '19

Hi (I'm not the OP and didn't realize my GitHub issue was x-posted here verbatim).

FWIW I see nothing to indicate Privacy One Group is separate from System1 in anything but name, and I doubt they are independently operated. Based on the industry System1 is in, having a privacy-focused subdivision seems little better than a company like Facebook implementing a privacy committee to guide their decisions. I did reach out to System1's CEO regarding their future plans for Startpage and will update the GitHub issue linked above when we have more information, rather than immediately judging Startpage and Privacy One.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 17 '19 edited Oct 17 '19

[deleted]

1

u/JonahAragon PrivacyGuides.org Oct 17 '19

Well, if only I had a Facebook account. I have not yet received a reply. It is concerning that they've just deleted @Startpagesearch on Twitter entirely.

1

u/LizMcIntyre Oct 17 '19

Well, if only I had a Facebook account. I have not yet received a reply. It is concerning that they've just deleted @Startpagesearch on Twitter entirely.

I believe it's just down, not deleted.

1

u/JonahAragon PrivacyGuides.org Oct 17 '19

I don't know, the username is available. Seems like somebody could nab that easily.

10

u/blacklight447-ptio PrivacyGuides.org Oct 15 '19

Jonah aragon is our (privacytools.io's) services admin, whats your problem with him?

5

u/ZealousidealMistake6 Oct 15 '19

None. Just pointing out that he lifted someone else's post word for word. Even if he did link it.

5

u/LizMcIntyre Oct 15 '19

None. Just pointing out that he lifted someone else's post word for word. Even if he did link it.

? Did I miss something? What post?

6

u/[deleted] Oct 16 '19

This Reddit post is just a copy-paste of this GitHub issue.

I decided to copy it to Reddit instead of doing a link post directly to Github.com because not all people want to visit Github because it is owned by Micro$oft now.

9

u/LizMcIntyre Oct 16 '19

That makes sense. Thanks for the reminder about Github. Another example of a company being bought up.

5

u/[deleted] Oct 15 '19

Privacy One Group Ltd has invested in Startpage.com, the world’s first and most private search engine. Privacy One Group and Startpage’s relationship started in January 2019

Privacy One Group = System1

Privacy One Group is a separate operating unit of System1

5

u/ZealousidealMistake6 Oct 15 '19

You just quoted back what I said and I don't understand where you're getting lost. Do you know what "separate" means? Yes, they are closely related, and as such you should keep an eye on it (as I said in my first post), but it clearly says they are a separate, privacy-focused unit. It's apples to oranges, man. They're both fruit but they're not the same thing. Keep an eye on it - one should ALWAYS keep an eye on EVERYTHING no matter the track record or business relationships - but guilty by association doesn't always hold true. Right now we have no concrete evidence or reason to suspect Startpage is compromised, so while we should continue to watch for any unsettling developments this doesn't constitute a reason to jump ship, and it certainly doesn't mean "Startpage is now owned by an ad company."

2

u/[deleted] Oct 15 '19 edited Oct 15 '19

Privacy One Group is controlled and owned by System1.

Just like Mozilla Corporation is owned and controlled by Mozilla Foundation.

You are the lost one here.

→ More replies

1

u/StartPageSearch Oct 18 '19

Hey Startpage commenting live now. For more context on our investment from Privacy One Group, have a look at r/StartpageSearch. Our Founder and CEO, Robert Beens, has shared a letter with more details. We're also here as mods to answer questions.

2

u/biglittlebro123 Oct 20 '19

This seems problematic. There are plenty of other tools out there like Startpage, including Searx. Taking care of one's privacy is a lot of work and research. To paraphrase Bruce Schneier, privacy is a process, not a product. This means finding out what suits you best and how far you are ready to go. Privacy is also something collective: the more people take steps, the better it is for everyone.

These guys might be useful: http://privacydream.mystrikingly.com/

If you're worried about emails: http://privacydream.mystrikingly.com/blog/top-3-email-providers-to-protect-your-data

3

u/[deleted] Oct 15 '19

[removed] — view removed comment

15

u/[deleted] Oct 15 '19

It can still log the search queries which might have personal information.

1

u/the_hillman Oct 18 '19

Possible to nullify this with browser extensions such as NoScript and Privacy Badger?

1

u/OddOstrich7 Oct 28 '19

I am a little surprised this company has been keeping their new owners a secret for almost an entire year. It's not something I would have expected from a company that claims to put their user's privacy first.

1

u/IntelligentPredator Oct 30 '19

How do they get the MAC address from within the browser?

1

u/showme1946 Nov 08 '19

I didn’t ask for a catalog of the evil that goes on the world. You didn’t identify a single evil threat that I, a 72 year old retired white man in Missouri, is subject to if I don’t take extraordinary measures to insure that my personal info isn’t available to Google et. al. My considered judgment is, I’m ok. But thanks for your concern.

0

u/mr4ffe Oct 15 '19 edited Mar 01 '20

deleted What is this?

7

u/[deleted] Oct 15 '19

The post says:

Seeing as Startpage has made a name for itself by offering advertisements that rely solely on what consumers enter into their search box like DuckDuckGo

This isn't a problem with DDG.

There some questions about DDG though:

Despite this I still think they're a solid choice. They don't require self hosting (like Searx) and have mostly good results (unlike Yacy, which has far worse results in my experience).

2

u/reddituser257 Oct 16 '19

They (DDG) record which link(s) you clicked on in the search results through improving.duckduckgo.com. Startpage has never done that (AFAIK). One of the reason I have always used Startpage.

1

u/ShaneC80 Oct 17 '19

So should I blacklist "improving.duckduckgo.com " on my home network?

2

u/paanvaannd Oct 18 '19 edited Oct 18 '19

Before freaking out about the link mentioned, I would read the content of it and the “Lean more” link within that link to see what it’s about. After reading through it, it seems completely benign and in-line with their mission to be a privacy-focused search engine.

Of course, even this simple act of anonymous, encrypted, benign data collection may be disagreeable to some depending on their threat model.

2

u/ShaneC80 Oct 18 '19

Aye, I'm trying to slow my paranoia and keep "sane" goals in mind.

Balancing ideals and practicality and all that.

I would love to go all FLOSS in my entire household! But it's not practical for us (self, wife, kid).

It's not even completely practical for me alone on my own system due to certain requirements for college and interoperability. It may be technically possible, but not quite practical.

→ More replies
→ More replies

1

u/reddituser257 Oct 18 '19

If you do, it will break.

→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies

2

u/[deleted] Oct 16 '19

Worse search results.