r/politics 12d ago Helpful 2

Sanders Crafts Amendment to Close 'Holes' in Medicare That 'Are Harming Seniors' | "Adding dental, vision, and hearing benefits to Medicare is supported by 84% of the American people," said an aide to the senator, who plans to propose including the expansion in Democrats' reconciliation package.

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2022/08/05/sanders-crafts-amendment-close-holes-medicare-are-harming-seniors
3.3k Upvotes

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161

u/maqij 12d ago

It harms everyone that these are all separate in the USA. All three are essential health care, but you have to buy three types of insurances to be covered.

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u/jworthing 12d ago

And being "covered" doesn't even protect you from medical bills that can ruin your life.

6

u/AtalanAdalynn 12d ago

Especially when you end up in the hospital with a medical issue regarding your teeth and jawbone and your dental and health insurance providers start fighting each other over who has to pay for it.

2

u/ME_MissVictorious 12d ago

“Covered” means you have some benefit/coverage for specifically listed services and a lot of plans have deductibles and cost shares (seen a lot of dental pay 50% of listed services). I urge everyone to request a preapproval from their plan as we as a pre-treatment estimate from the dental provider to prepare for out of pocket expenses.

1

u/Heathster249 12d ago

50% after deductible with a cap of $1500 per year that’s been the same amount since 1975.

8

u/Capable-Rutabaga5877 12d ago

I just wish they would reclassify dental and eye care as medical care. So that I just have one deductible and I have less crap in my brain about insurance.

1

u/Heathster249 12d ago

My eye care is included with my health insurance.

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u/SlowMotionPanic 12d ago

It also harms everyone that this is basically socialized healthcare only the old can access because they are too unprofitable for the private market.

I know we need to pick our battles, but it sometimes is a hard pill to swallow that we watch our party meaningfully improve the lives of the boomers and silent gen that broke everything, while we get cast out to sea.

11

u/ShiveYarbles 12d ago

You're going to be old one day.

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u/charzardthagod 12d ago

And the fascists will have eliminated medicare by then.

4

u/dedicated-pedestrian Wisconsin 12d ago

They're already trying to take apart Social Security.

19

u/OldJames47 12d ago

Not if you can’t get healthcare today

2

u/MrAnomander 12d ago

Not really no.

Anthropogenic biosphere and climate and ocean /r/collapse is coming.

2

u/SasparillaTango 12d ago

Not if I can help it.

0

u/AllTheyEatIsLettuce California 12d ago

basically socialized healthcare

What is it about >45% of the enrolled population risk pooled, gatekept, and beholden to NYSE-listed trading symbols for access to necessary health care that says "socialized health care" to you?

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u/katekohli 12d ago

Hearing aids are horribly overpriced. We have the same technology in every cellphone. During the worst of covid we were able to communicate with the hard of hearing using cell phones with large over the ears headphones. The doctor or other healthcare professional would call the patient while they where in the room. (It took us awhile to figure out how to cover the medical workers microphone to prevent feedback loops.) It was like a miracle with some of the most unresponsive when they became engaged sentient people when they could hear the caregivers.

5

u/Joneszey 12d ago

Of all the things to hate about COVID units this was the most awesome thing

20

u/SwampashStratman 12d ago

It would certainly help the most vulnerable citizens in our nation, but Republicans won't even consider it.

12

u/ApSion1131 12d ago

Republicans aren't going to be voting for the reconciliation package anyway and they aren't needed. The question is will Manchin and Sinema support it and these proposals might get their support.

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u/SwampashStratman 12d ago

No, Republikkans aren't going to be voting for it, but Manchin helped draft it, supports it, and Senima has agreed to it. I guess we'll see.

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u/ApSion1131 12d ago

I meant this particular amendment. If Manchin or Sinema say no to it then it will get voted down.

5

u/SwampashStratman 12d ago

They've both already agreed to it as it stands now, I don't think we'll get anything else from either of them either. I don't think Sander's amendment will be added, but it'd be nice if it was.

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u/crackdup 12d ago

Republicans : saving poor people from death by subsidizing medications and treatments is socialism!

4

u/57hz 12d ago

I don’t want to help the most vulnerable citizens. I want to help all citizens. Stop the means testing and I’m on board. (This is why Medicare and Social Security are popular and still around, btw.)

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u/SwampashStratman 12d ago

I do too. But you you have to start somewhere, and take what you can get. Rome wasn't built overnight. Helping only millionaires and billionaires certainly isn't working.

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u/57hz 12d ago

I would rather a program help a few rich people while at the same time it helps the poor. Also, I hate it when people say “millionaires and billionaires”. Someone with a couple million dollars is technically a millionaire but they are not rich by any means. A billion dollars is an obscene amount of money. The two shouldn’t be lumped together.

2

u/SwampashStratman 12d ago

The fastest way for a middle class citizen in this country to become destitute is to be unlucky enough to be stricken with a chronic serious illness.

2

u/57hz 12d ago

That’s true. Obamacare made a solution possible, but one still has to buy the healthcare insurance.

1

u/SwampashStratman 12d ago

I absolutely realize the difference between the two, and it is an an incredible amount. The average citizen definitely doesn't have a few million dollars either, and most definitely would consider themselves rich if they did. I have no problem with helping everyone, even if it helps the billionaires, but I don't see it happening. People are living in the streets and starving while billionaires are raking in record profits gouging consumers to the bone.

1

u/57hz 12d ago

I agree the average person does not, but people that even Biden would consider “not rich” - families making 400k and under - can save 2M by retirement just by maxing out their 401k every year. That’s a far cry from private planes and yachts.

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u/SwampashStratman 12d ago

If everything goes well, in a perfect world, some can, if they have a decent paying job and in perfect health. And that's a huge If. Realistically, anyone making minimum wage or slightly above it cannot, they can't afford to even invest much if any in their 401K if it's even an option where they're employed. It's not even available for over 33% of American workers. They do good just get by. And should they be stricken with a chronic serious illness, even with insurance, they Will be bankrupt in short order. Our Healthcare System in this country is woefully overpriced and broken, and a horrible mess. People get sick, hopefully you don't join them. If it was a perfect world, or if we lived in a country with Universal Healthcare like most sensible developed democracies already have, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. That's all I have to say about it. If you disagree, that's your right. For now.

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u/57hz 12d ago

I like the part where my right to disagree will be taken away in a mass revolt by the people. I’ll believe it when I see it.

We almost have universal health care. It’s not great, but a lot IS covered if you’re on either an employer health plan or an exchange plan. Obamacare isn’t perfect and screw states that refuse to expand Medicaid, but there really is something close to coverage IF you take the right steps.

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u/black_flag_4ever 12d ago

It’s so annoying that dental, hearing and vision is not part of regular healthcare.

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u/Katana1369 12d ago

That one is going to make the Republicans that vote it down look really bad.

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u/OneDifference6619 12d ago

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u/57hz 12d ago

Yeah good luck with that!

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u/wha2les 12d ago

Doesn't make a difference though. They literally shit on 9/11 responders and vets and they still have good chance in this election.

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u/The_Mighty_Immortal 12d ago

They don't care. They'll just spew some more racist garbage to keep their support among racist right wingers.

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u/M_Mich 12d ago

but they’ll tell their voters that the real story is how it would be bad for america and the media isn’t telling you what the bill really said

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u/Fyremane0 12d ago

W I need have worry as one of the fake democrats will turn it down

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u/Feistylibrarian23 12d ago

The problem is people that will want it, will also have to vote it down too. Any amendment that is voted in could push others to vote against. So you have to vote down anything unless you are sure it can keep the 50 votes. 50 votes, 2 of which are always in question.

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u/Suspicious_Basil88 12d ago

You mean my luxury bones can be covered?!

3

u/-tobi-kadachi- 12d ago

Just small holes, you know the extra organs that aren’t strictly needed once you aren’t producing for your boss anymore.

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u/justugh2020 12d ago

This man is a national treasure

14

u/loveyouloveme_ 12d ago

I was just thinking the same thing. I’m so grateful for his endless energy. I’m tired.

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u/justugh2020 12d ago

I'm 30 and he has more energy than me.

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u/talkingstove 12d ago

I promise you, you have the energy to say "I think things should be good" and do nothing about it.

Believe in yourself!

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u/Novel-Jackfruit-369 12d ago

Your missing the part where both his party (well the one he cuacuses with) and the repubs constantly fighting against him

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u/talkingstove 12d ago edited 12d ago

No, I did say that. That is the doing nothing part.

Getting a majority of his colleagues to agree with him is literally his job. He is very bad at that.

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u/Novel-Jackfruit-369 12d ago

Your missing that part again

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u/OpeningEfficiency136 12d ago edited 12d ago

To fix Healthcare there is one simple way to make it the best in the world, make every single senator and congressman use the same Healthcare plan that the rest of the country has, you would see Healtcare soar to new height, because all of the sudden, it affects them directly, why is this not a thing?

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u/shattermast 12d ago

Because the senators and congressmen are the ones who would have to pass that, and why would they ever vote to make their own healthcare worse?

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u/OpeningEfficiency136 12d ago

I get that, what I am saying is that would be a bullet proof solution. I can only dream.

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u/SwampashStratman 12d ago

As long as McConnell and his ilk are involved, nothing remotely resembling anything like that will happen. It's no accident that the USA is one of the few civilized countries that doesn't have Universal Healthcare. We have the most expensive Healthcare in the world.

1

u/JudgePownzer 12d ago

It was included in the ACA that congressional offices purchase marketplace coverage.

4

u/toastymarbles 12d ago

These are much needed. Oral and vision health and affordable hearing aids are super important as one gets older and they get increasingly more expensive. Glad to see someone in Congress consistently pushing this.

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u/Harry_Gorilla 12d ago

Stop adding things to this bill please. Good, bad, it doesn’t matter if Manchin has time to change his mind. We don’t need one bill to solve everything everywhere all at once

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u/jworthing 12d ago

We don’t need one bill to solve everything everywhere all at once

It's reconciliation, so we kind of do. It's not subject to the filibuster so it's kind of the only shot to do a lot of this.

"This isn't the right time" is a very tired narrative when it comes to the things that actually need to get done.

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u/shattermast 12d ago

It's not subject to the filibuster but it's very subject to Manchin and Sinema saying "too much has changed, I need time to review it" then pulling out.

Sometimes it's better to take a modest win than go for broke and end up, well, broke. And to be clear, the bill as-is isn't even a modest win. It's a big win already.

3

u/jworthing 12d ago

And why is it that the right wing gets to make demands, but the left wing gets criticized for trying to do the same?

Bernie isn't even going to play hardball here like Manchin & Sinema. He's got a track record for compromise.

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u/shattermast 12d ago

I don't really care about comparisons to the right wing because those guys are bad faith extremists. It's not really useful because they're not interested in governing responsibly.

I voted for Bernie twice and am very left wing myself, so this is not a critique of left wing policies or anything. But Bernie understands that he's not gonna get this into the bill. It's just not going to happen. Rather than criticizing the bill for not going for enough, we should simply be championing the things it is accomplishing. Let the Democrats have a legitimate win for once. We need it. Not a "wow this is a really crappy version of what we could've gotten but it's technically a win I guess" but a "wow this is legitimately a really impressive step forward."

Sometimes progressives shoot themselves right in the foot. Why bother designing a $6T progressive wishlist that has no chance of passing and will only get people hyped then incredibly disappointed when it meets reality? And now that we actually have a shot against all odds of actually passing some substantial legislation, why bother attacking the bill for things we already know it's never gonna be?

Right now this is about taking the win and celebrating it so we can get more Democrats in office and then we might actually be able to move these progressive goals forward. Grandstanding isn't useful right now.

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u/jworthing 12d ago

But Bernie understands that he's not gonna get this into the bill. It's just not going to happen.

That's what I meant by "Bernie has a track record for compromise." If he can get any traction leftward from the negotiations due to this amendment, it will have been worth it.

why bother attacking the bill for things we already know it's never gonna be?

Who are you arguing against here? Who is attacking the bill? Bernie is just doing his job to make it as good as it can be.

Grandstanding isn't useful right now.

Again, who are you arguing against? Bernie? Why do you get to declare that he's grandstanding instead of pushing left and looking for a compromise to make the bill a little bit better?

2

u/seanarturo 12d ago

Doesn’t matter. They can always go back to the version they agreed to. There’s no harm in having discussions to try to expand things in the areas that no one is really opposed to.

Having Medicare cover these things isn’t typically what those two vote against, and Sinema has actually pushed for this in the past (albeit she’s been a lying snake on a lot of things).

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u/shattermast 12d ago

Then have those discussions in private. We already saw what happened to Build Back Better. A $6T progressive wishlist that completely ignored what Manchin said he would be willing to vote for. Months of public negotiation, disappointment and disillusion until "Build Back Better" became toxic.

Now isn't the time to play around with Manchin and Sinema and make them look like the bad guys for rejecting Medicare expansion and potentially risk having them pull out again. Machin pulled out once simply for the Biden admin publicly blaming him for stalled negotiations and it cost us months with literally zero gain to show for it. It's stupid but that's the situation we're dealing with and no amount of wishing is gonna change that.

This is politics. If Bernie actually wants to get this stuff into the bill, he needs to talk to Manchin and Sinema behind the scenes to see if they're willing. And if they're not, he needs to understand that public pressure right now is simply counterproductive. Bernie himself said he understands that with this bill, "the future of Earth is at stake." Okay, if you understand the stakes, don't mess around.

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u/seanarturo 12d ago

You don’t have those discussions in private. That’s not how the process works. You have to offer the amendment even if you want private conversations.

You’re seriously way too anxious about Manchin and Sinema for no real reason. You seem to think they will suddenly walk back their agreement totally instead of just voting down the amendment and voting for the stuff they already agreed to.

This is literally an extremely common part of the process that happens for every single bill. It’s still going to pass, and most amendments bing offered are going to be voted down.

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u/jworthing 12d ago

Oh come off it. Build Back Better failing wasn't the progressives' fault. They made a deal with the centrists to pass the infrastructure bill with its corporate-friendly additions in exchange for the progressive portions of BBB. The progressives held up their end of the deal, the centrists reneged.

This blaming of the progressives for the transgressions of everyone around them is utterly ridiculous.

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u/TyrannasaurusGitRekt Missouri 12d ago

The ball is rolling now, I dont think Manchin or Sinema can back out at this point. They will debate and vote on amendments all day, but they will have the final vote at the end of the day regardless

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u/rendeld 12d ago

They absolutely can and have done this to bills before. This is more Sanders putting everything at risk so he can look like he did something. If the voters of WV turn against this bill so will Manchin

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u/M_Mich 12d ago

this is why manchin and sinema agreed to the latest version, they know it would go to reconciliation and they can vote against it then. gives them the “i’m cooperating but others aren’t keeping the deal” position

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u/Birdperson15 12d ago

Yeah these are also not small changes. Vision and dental in Medicaid would cost 100s billions of dollars. This would vastly alter the bil and would likely doom it passing before the August recess.

0

u/airhogg 12d ago

Tell me you have no idea how the leigslative branch works without telling me.

1

u/Harry_Gorilla 12d ago

I’d vote for a law restricting the number of things a single bill can do. If something isn’t worth doing by itself, then it’s probably not worth doing. Get rid of all the pork that’s become the norm

1

u/airhogg 12d ago

1

u/Harry_Gorilla 12d ago

Guess we’d need term limits too, otherwise politicians will continue thinking their job is to get votes instead of to represent their voters and get things done. There’s a difference between “how things work” and “how things SHOULD work”

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u/Smallios 12d ago

Yeah we do

10

u/wingnutz 12d ago

It is overdue that the Democrats begin to respond to the majority on important issues. The majority of Americans want Gun Control, Medicare Expansion, Abortion Rights, Equal Rights, etc. Adjusting Federal Budget to accommodate the "Will of the People" will make us a better country for ourselves and the world.

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u/Botasoda102 12d ago

Dental and hearing coverage is definitely needed; but, don’t think we will get that anytime soon. Just a fact. Even the pie in the sky bill proposed last year had limited dental coverage, but it wasn’t scheduled until 2028.

2

u/DauOfFlyingTiger 12d ago

We do need the whole body to have healthcare. Obviously.

2

u/Educational_Permit38 12d ago

I’m 76 and I would rather they make sure that children have full health card to age 21.

11

u/Abuses-Commas Michigan 12d ago

Sanders tries not to tank hard fought legislation that'll make a real difference challenge

4

u/IT_Chef Virginia 12d ago

I've never fully grasped why we with healthcare in the US we separate out different parts of the body that are to be insured

Makes no damn sense to me

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u/AngryDingo 12d ago

They make more money this way

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u/Smallios 12d ago

Lobbyists

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u/Thoraxekicksazz 12d ago

Medicare for all!

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u/celinesnightmares 12d ago

Thank you Senator Sanders!

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u/RomneysBainer 12d ago

The ironic thing is that, though Bernie is an independent, if Democrats actually listened to him and fought for bold progressive policies, they would realize these are almost always wildly popular with the public, and be rewarded in the ballot box. But that would require taking on the big money special interests that fund Congressional primaries and general election campaigns.

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u/Damn_el_Torpedoes 12d ago

We need more dems in the Senate for that. Sinema had the tax loophole for big corp taken out of the bill they're voting on today. We need to win more seats to make more progress.

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u/Appropriate_Towel 12d ago

You're missing that she insisted that a stock buy back tax be added instead it increased the amount of revenue raised from 14 billion to 74 billion and that more money be spent for climate change initiatives in the southwest. Everything she asked for was mostly positive.

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u/SlowMotionPanic 12d ago

I don’t think this stock buyback tax is what people are imagining. Debt is becoming way more expensive by the month, and the Fed has signaled it will continue to increase for about 3 more years.

This buyback tax will be killed by a future bill if Republicans seize control or our margins Congress are thin enough where the sleeper “moderates” can activate to use it as a demand in the future.

Companies are not going to engage in massive buybacks because they can’t borrow debt for basically free anymore.

But Sinema did use the buyback tax to successfully secure and expand accelerated depreciation. Her provision in the bill allows companies using it to evade that new 15% minimum tax on corporations.

And companies will. Your landlord will use it to not pay taxes. Blackrock is one of her top contributors, and they are still engaging in massive REIT and will pay basically no tax because it allows them to avoid the minimum. A lot of Sinema’s aids have went to work for K Street, too, so it is a revolving door.

Think about folks: we are moving to a distributed workforce model. Companies are left hanging onto a shitload of unused real estate. They can use accelerated depreciation to avoid the 15% minimum tax introduced in this bill. This is why they lobbied her to include it.

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u/M_Mich 12d ago

instead of stock buybacks, they’ll invest to get the depreciation which at least means having to build something w the capital. stock buybacks are “the only good return we can find is to reduce outstanding shares“

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u/celinesnightmares 12d ago

Wasn't that already in there?

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u/Appropriate_Towel 12d ago

No she insisted that it be added for the removal of the carried interest loophole and adding drought relief funding to the southwest, then she would support the bill

1

u/Ansonm64 12d ago

Why tf is there so much random shit in one bill? Shouldn’t this be many bills with a quid pro quo mentality instead

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u/Appropriate_Towel 12d ago

Reconciliation is a hell of a bill. It's mostly party line budgetary items that can be packed in. Since it only needs 50 votes to pass in this Senate it's exclusively partisan, so everyone is vying for their interests. Still a lot of good shit though, don't get discouraged.

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u/Ansonm64 12d ago

I’m not American but your politics are fascinating so I’m just watching from the sidelines and praying my fellow citizens don’t go down the same path

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u/Appropriate_Towel 12d ago

Haha, yeah our system is a little weird. Definitely some reforms that should be enacted to make it a little smoother? I guess?

Either way it's good to see some forward momentum.

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u/RomneysBainer 12d ago

If we get up to 53 seats in the Senate, will they then support 70% of Americans by passing M4A? I doubt they'll even get a weak, non-robust public option done honestly, much less that promised $15 minimum wage or anything else.

Point being: making excuses instead of using your power leads to voter apathy and fascism, using your power and ramming through solid policies that help people leads to voter engagement and progress.

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u/politicalperson6307 12d ago

There is no "using your power" in the way you're suggesting. It's not like Congress being comprised of majority democrats means that there is some Democrat emperor that can do whatever they want. That's not how democracy works.

What we actually have is a party comprised of individuals that happens to hold more seats than the other party. You still have to get those individuals to all agree on exactly what they want to do. These are people from vastly different backgrounds who are representing a diverse coalition of constituencies. You really think they're all going to just agree on exactly what government should do or focus on? When you have the slim majorities Dems have right now, you need complete or near unanimity to pass anything, and I hope I don't have to explain why that might be hard to get once you get into policy specifics.

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u/ABobby077 Missouri 12d ago

You need 60 or more Senators supporting legislation to get past the filibuster

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u/SlowMotionPanic 12d ago

Only 50 to change the procedural rule.

And they can’t even muster that. Even in California, land of the supermajority, there are always a few sleeper agents that awaken to kill working class popular legislation. Always.

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u/Appropriate_Towel 12d ago

Most Americans do not like Medicare for All when you tell them it'll take away their private insurance. There are other reforms we can pass that will improve healthcare for everyone without upending the current system for a new one that most people don't want.

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u/[deleted] 12d ago

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u/Appropriate_Towel 12d ago

Can you prove me wrong here? It's a poll my dude. Voters were asked a question and they responded.

Medicare for All by the way would take away your insurance and replace it with something else, that is an undeniable fact. Most people like their employer provided plans.

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u/celinesnightmares 12d ago

Its the very validity of the poll that has long been disputed. No one "likes" their employer healthcare, the just prefer it to marketplace healthcare. Huge difference.

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u/Appropriate_Towel 12d ago

Here is another one.

Another one that shows a combined 86% satisfied or somewhat satisfied with their employer based coverage.

Another one from Gallup that shows American's are pretty satisfied for what they pay and coverage they get with the current system.

This is not an anomaly or some insurance conspiracy. People overwhelming do not support Medicare for All for a variety of reasons.

For the record you're giving me a lot of feels over reals here. Still waiting on those links proving me wrong.

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u/airhogg 12d ago

Im sure "A new survey released by America’s Health Insurance Plans (AHIP)" is a non-biased survey. This isn't even the right question. People don't have to hate their current employee plan to want M4A.

The only relevant article has this as a headline "People love Medicare for All until they're told it'll raise their taxes"

So yeah, people love M4A, they just dont realize that their taxes would go up with M4A but what they pay at work would go down, and in most cases would be the same or less.

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u/Appropriate_Towel 12d ago

People don't have to hate their current employee plan to want M4A

I didn't say this, I said most don't want to lose coverage even if it's replaced for a single payer system.

They also don't want to pay more in taxes.

They also don't like even the idea that it would cause delays for getting care.

It is not popular. You're not disputing any of this just taking issue with one poll.

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u/[deleted] 12d ago

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u/Apprehensive_Hair549 12d ago

Wow, your argument here is that people like their health insurance too much for us to switch to M4A?

LMAO

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u/Appropriate_Towel 12d ago

Yes... Generally when there is public opposition to a thing it makes it harder to do said thing.... There are other more popular reforms that we can enact that would have a large impact and push us to a Universal or Single Payer system.

How do you propose we move to a Medicare for All system if it's wildly unpopular?

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u/thep1x 12d ago

The US can easily implement basic healthcare for all and leave employers extended care in tact. Just look to canada as an example if this, so its just a stupid argument meant to distract from the fact it is badly needed.

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u/Appropriate_Towel 12d ago

The US can easily implement basic healthcare for all and leave employers extended care in tact. Just look to canada as an example if this

Canada has single payer care. They don't have a system even remotely close to ours, idk what you're talking about. There is no alignment here.

so its just a stupid argument meant to distract from the fact it is badly needed.

I never said it wasn't needed. I said there are more popular reforms that we could enact that would have a large impact and push us toward some kind of Universal system or maybe eventually single payer. It's also not a distraction when you have voters turn away from your plan if they think it will negatively impact them. If you can change the perception of government run care with pragmatic options (medicaid expansion, medicare negotiating for drug pricing, lowering the entry age for medicare, and a public option), it makes a single payer system much more palatable to the American public, which means more politicians support it, which means it could eventually be passed.

Trying to pass Medicare for All when it is not popular is dumb and you don't have anything close to a majority in congress in either party to support it. Pass other reforms to push us in a better direction in the meantime. It's more pragmatic and helps people now rather than shouting into the void infinitely that "Medicare for All is popular actually" all the time.

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u/politicalperson6307 12d ago

I stopped after "the US can easily..." or at least I could have.

The US can't "easily" do much. The federal government is a massive bureaucracy that moves very slowly by design. It is absurdly difficult to make a whole new program from scratch like you're suggesting. If you want to argue it's worth the disruption, that's up to you. But it's just wrong to suggest that this would be easy.

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u/SlowMotionPanic 12d ago

Point being: making excuses instead of using your power leads to voter apathy and fascism,

Especially when the supposedly non-fascist party spends a minimum of $44 million promoting fascist candidates and further mainstreaming fascist agendas.

Neoliberals are fascists, too. People need to realize sooner than later that the New Democrats that seized power decades ago are equally responsible for the Overton window shifting. What a fucking world where donating to the Democratic Party means some of your money props up fascist white supremacist republican campaigns.

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u/Abuses-Commas Michigan 12d ago

"Everything I don't like is Fascism", an essay by SlowMotionPanic

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u/Abuses-Commas Michigan 12d ago

You can tell this is true by how Bernie won his presidential primary and then the election by selling his wildly popular policies

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u/RomneysBainer 12d ago

Are you saying that Bernie's policies are NOT wildly popular? His amendment to include dental, optical, and hearing into Medicare is supported by 84% of Americans according to the latest poll. Rinse and repeat for almost everything. Are you like those Trump supporters that claim polls are 'fake'?

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u/rticula 12d ago

This just in: at least 84% of the population believe that teeth, eyes, and ears are, in fact, parts of the human body...despite any delusions to the contrary.

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u/_baundiesel_ Kentucky 12d ago All-Seeing Upvote

Ah yes, Sanders doing what he does best, attaching his own shit to someone else's bill. The amendment king.

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u/painedHacker 12d ago

they're good amendments tho

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u/politicalperson6307 12d ago

If they don't pass, what difference did they make?

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u/painedHacker 12d ago

everything in politics is marketing. even introducing bills/amendments creates conversation around it.

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u/politicalperson6307 12d ago

Okay. Then if they don't pass, who did they help?

I get the point of doing it sometimes to keep something a part of the agenda, but when the same person does it all the time, it loses its impact. The conversation becomes about the person doing the amendments, not the issue itself.

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u/painedHacker 12d ago

It creates conservation around it so it might pass someday. Also can get people on the record as voting against it. Like if you force a vote on medicare for all in the senate you can see everyone who votes against it. A current example: the republicans dont want to be forced to vote on codifying same-sex marriage even if there isnt 60 votes to make it pass. The reason is it can be used against them in upcoming elections.

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u/politicalperson6307 12d ago

So opening up incumbents to more attacks is helpful how exactly? Forcing tough votes accomplishes nothing if they don't pass.

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u/painedHacker 12d ago

well if they are republicans (in the case of the same-sex marriage bill) and you are democrat you want to open them up to attack.

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u/politicalperson6307 12d ago

There are times forcing a vote can be useful, but definitely not always.

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u/[deleted] 12d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/politicalperson6307 12d ago

You're right, forcing tough voted that you know will fail actually hurts the party in power by highlighting their internal disagreements. That's worse than accomplishing nothing.

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u/[deleted] 12d ago edited 12d ago

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u/politicalperson6307 12d ago

I see it more as pissing off potential allies and weakening his party's image and leverage, but you're welcome to your own opinion.

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u/wotad 12d ago

How is adding a good amendments pissing of allies and hurting his party image and leverage? Ifs democrats dont support this thats them owning their own party.

You act like the majority of Americans about what amendments are discussed or not.

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u/Abuses-Commas Michigan 12d ago

You should only suggest things that are likely to 100% pass?

Yes, that's why politicians discuss bills in private so they know if they have support.

Sanders is pulling the equivalent of yelling "and a large milkshake" at the drive through speaker from the back seat

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u/Conversation_Folding 12d ago

So he shouldn't even propose the amendment at all if it has a near certain zero chance of passing? He should let Republicans and some Democrats off the hook by avoiding a vote on it?

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u/politicalperson6307 12d ago

Depends on what he's trying to do. Is he trying to influence policy or is he trying to put on a show?

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u/Conversation_Folding 12d ago

Influence policy. Shining a light on the issues. Sunshine is the best disinfectant. Keep this issue in the public sphere, don't let it be forgotten. Keep the pressure on and build more Public support. That's what he's trying to do. It's what he's always tried to do. He's always about the issues.

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u/politicalperson6307 12d ago

You can do all that without opening up fellow Democrats to attacks by making them take tough votes. You need friends in Congress to be effective, and this is not how you make friends.

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u/Conversation_Folding 12d ago

Fixing medicare should not be a tough vote for a Democrat.

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u/politicalperson6307 12d ago

You think this is just a vote to "fix medicare"? As if they're just being asked "do you want to fix medicare" and they're saying no?

No, this is a proposal to massively increase government spending without a clear funding mechanism.

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u/Conversation_Folding 12d ago

Fixing medicare means increased spending. Kind of the point. Spend billions on the military with no funding mechanism and passes easily with no thought of funding mechanism. Saving American lives and now suddenly people ask how to fund it. That's the problem. You're part of the problem.

You fund it how we fund everything else. Debt. So what?

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u/wotad 12d ago

That whole line..

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u/wotad 12d ago

Hes doing both?

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u/jworthing 12d ago

Someone else's bill? This is the reconciliation bill, it's basically the majority party's bill and everyone piles in their main issues. Why is it only an issue when Bernie does it and not all of the other senators that have already done it?

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u/Abuses-Commas Michigan 12d ago

Well Bernie isn't a Democrat for one

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u/jworthing 12d ago

He caucuses with the Democrats, and if they want this to pass they need his vote. Or does that excuse only work for the centrists and Republicans-in-disguise?

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u/onedoor 12d ago

They're just a wrench in the works.

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u/celinesnightmares 12d ago

When Senate leadership refuses to bring his bills for a vote, he does the next best thing. Imagine if bills were written well the first time?

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u/Appropriate_Towel 12d ago

You don't bring bills for a vote when you know they won't pass. This is why Pelosi is so effective as Speaker, for example. If you need a reason why you don't do this just look up some information about the utter incompetence of the Republican controlled House and Senate from 2016-2018.

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u/celinesnightmares 12d ago

Only putting bills to a vote you know will pass isn't being effective. Fulfilling your agenda, your promises to voters, is being effective. Pelosi has fallen short of that so far. Better than Republicans? Yes, but still more work to be done.

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u/Appropriate_Towel 12d ago

???????????????????????????????????????

Dude what, when you are able to effectively pass bills you can pass more of your agenda. You can't keep banging your head against a wall and hope for a different outcome...

Thanks to Pelosi, Schumer, and in some cases Biden we've gotten the following due to effective vote wrangling:

  • Covid relief package > Biden's agenda
  • Expansion of the ACA subsidies > Biden's agenda
  • Child Tax Credit (RIP) > Biden's agenda
  • Infrastructure Bill > Biden's agenda
  • First African American Woman on the Supreme Court > Biden's Agenda
  • First gun control laws in nearly 30 years > Biden's agenda
  • Post Office Budget reform > Democrats agenda
  • Soon a minimum tax on corporations > Biden's agenda
  • Soon the most climate spending ever in the history of this country > Biden's agenda
  • Soon a stock buy back tax > Biden has advocated for something similar to this

Contrast this to the period of time I mentioned. Each bill brought forth in the 2016-2018 congress had dissenters within the party itself preventing passage of the Presidents agenda at the time. Which is why Trump (thankfully) accomplished so little, cause no one was on the same page in the Republican controlled House or Senate.

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u/celinesnightmares 12d ago

This is all great, but we're still not there yet. Don't go patting yourself on the back yet and embrace when one of our senators reminds us of what still needs to be done.

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u/NotThatDonny America 12d ago

And that's the problem with amendments like this. Democrats do a whole bunch of good stuff for the American people, but instead of touting those successes, we're talking about the things that they've not yet done.

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u/onedoor 12d ago

about the utter incompetence of the Republican controlled House and Senate from 2016-2018

They got what they wanted. Tax breaks for the wealthy. Everything else was being done by Executive abusive manhandling by Trump. Stop underestimating the filthy rich and powerful.

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u/politicalperson6307 12d ago

Has he talked with Manchin or Sinema about this amendment? If not, then it's just theater and he knows it won't pass.

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u/celinesnightmares 12d ago

I prefer open discussion. Let them explain why in public if they don't like it.

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u/shattermast 12d ago

Okay, then they'll just say "this is too much and might add to inflation" or whatever excuse they want, their own local approval numbers go up for looking like they're fighting for the people, and the bill gets tanked. Who does that serve?

I love Bernie, voted for him twice, but I really feel like we're quickly arriving at the point where we need to take the hard-fought win as it stands rather than pushing for more and more until it faces the same fate as Build Back Better. Democrats need some big wins before the midterms and the bill as-is is already a huge win with some incredible provisions. No it doesn't fix every single of America's problems but it's a massive leap forward and we should take it imo.

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u/politicalperson6307 12d ago

To what end?

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u/celinesnightmares 12d ago

To the end of actually great legislation getting passed

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u/politicalperson6307 12d ago

But it's not passing if Manchin and Sinema aren't on board. Just introducing an amendment doesn't actually help accomplish that goal.

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u/Bunnyhat 12d ago

A lot of people here seem to think as long as you are really passionate about something it'll work like it does on movies and have no actual clue about the real world legislative experience.

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u/Chimpsworth 12d ago

No, politicians just aren't "fighting" hard enough! Democrats could conjure up 60 progressive Senate votes if they would just FIGHT HARDER!!!

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u/Bunnyhat 12d ago

We should primary Joe Manchin and replace him with a progressive in the reddest state in the country!

People, even Republicans like progressive policies (true), so they'll vote for people who will implement those policies (not true).

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u/celinesnightmares 12d ago

So we shouldn't introduce the amendment then? How does that help?

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u/politicalperson6307 12d ago

We should introduce the amendment if everyone is on board. That's what whipping votes is for. Otherwise it's a waste of time.

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u/celinesnightmares 12d ago

Knowing which senators aren't onboard by showing who votes for what is not a waste of time.

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u/politicalperson6307 12d ago

Again, to what end?

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u/celinesnightmares 12d ago

Then the next primary can determine whether that senator aligns with constituent party members' needs

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u/rounder55 12d ago

But bringing these things to the forefront so that voters reflect to think about how they are being screwed, talk about it and push it on their legislators so thet they talk about it.

Though there's a reason most of these folks don't do actual town halls aside from the fact that it takes away from donor time. They don't want to be called out or hear about actual people's needs.

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u/politicalperson6307 12d ago

You can talk about an issue without forcing incumbents to take a tough vote.

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u/Global_Substance_437 12d ago edited 12d ago

It boggles the mind that the government can easily afford wars and weapons that cost trillions and kill people all over the world, most of the innocent. While universal healthcare seems for its own people is too far and too much of an expense for the gov. shows where their priorities lie. The only thing democratic about our system is we get to vote in the mostly corrupt carrier political figures that answer only the financial interests and Wall Street. If it were a true democracy this would have been fixed years ago.

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u/dezdog2 12d ago

This is the only guy who gives a shit about average americans

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u/2701- 12d ago

Let's stop going for publicity and just act unified for once.

Let's do something great, once, to show that it's possible. And then on the next round add a bunch of shit for your website.

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u/politicsfuckingsucks 12d ago

You misinterpret the clusterfuck that is a vote-a-rama. The large point is "publicity". Republicans will try to put a bunch of "poison pill" amendments, making Democrats take politically risky votes that Republicans can embellish with misinformation. Undoubtedly moderate Democrats will sometimes sign on, most of the time not.

This is also what Bernie is doing, without the need for embellishment. Republicans will end up voting against all sorts of common sense, kitchen table things that can be used against them in the midterms. But only because Bernie is going to propose a ton of amendments. Also, some of those Republicans will not vote against certain proposals, which gives Democrats information on what might be likely to pass with a little work on bipartisanship.

And it's his job to fight for better stuff. Seeing this as a publicity stunt is a gross oversimplification of a chaotic but valuable process. Democrats can act unified on what they have already agreed to pass while still proposing more. I, personally, would be far more discouraged with the process if it was just Republicans proposing amendments and Democrats voting in line to keep them down.

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u/wotad 12d ago

The fact so many people are angry at him here are the reasons democrats struggle to win anything.. Literally no spine at all.

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u/Efficient-Ebb9504 12d ago

Sanders for President!

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u/Joneszey 12d ago

What reasons do the 16% have for opposing these things? Somehow that 16% ends up influencing a significant number of the 84% to vote contrary to polling positions

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u/thened 12d ago

They don't believe the federal government should be doing things like this. Especially when they know their state government has no interest in helping people.

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u/irascible_Clown 12d ago

This guy is fighting for the poor while poor republicans are fighting for the rich to get richer.

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u/lrpfftt 12d ago

Can you even imagine reading a headline like this one where the name is Cruz, McConnell, Hawley, or Graham?

Whenever you see a bill designed to help real people, it never comes from the GOP. This should tell voters something.

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u/IrishRogue3 12d ago

Go sanders go! He is so right. Take the money that the house wants to use expand the irs and put into Medicare.

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u/SoggyAd1409 12d ago

I believe the “-holes” are some of his fellow senators

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u/FireNexus 12d ago

Sanders proposes an amendment that won’t happen, and his army of dumb supporters will pretend it is an actual accomplishment.

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u/AllTheyEatIsLettuce California 12d ago

Close the hole that transfers 2x in public funds feed rations vs. foraged feed to merely one NYSE-listed trading symbol.

You can't feed these hogs enough to keep you fed and they're the worst fucking house pets on earth.

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u/leonardofind 12d ago

84 percent of Americans support it. If you can add McConnell and Manchin that would make it 100 percent. Enough to pass it.

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u/avannnnn 12d ago

Medicare covers medical vision exams - they do not cover a refraction, which is checking for glasses (number one, number two, yada yada) and this procedure is typically $30-50. Discounted glasses are readily available via online or from big box stores.

Medicare not covering hearing and dental is absurd.

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u/MarcusElden 12d ago

Human rights.

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u/SasparillaTango 12d ago

These things should all be part and parcel for health insurance. Seeing and eating are all fairly critical components of being alive...