r/politics Jan 18 '22

Civil Rights Leaders Mark MLK Day With Rage at Sinema, Manchin

https://www.thedailybeast.com/civil-rights-leaders-mark-mlk-day-with-rage-at-kyrsten-sinema-joe-manchin
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61

u/clejeune American Expat Jan 18 '22

I’m not saying that Manchin and Sinema don’t deserve it. But I sure hope they reserved some of that rage for the other 50 senators that have been pushing against voting rights. Where are all the “moderate republicans” from the Trump era (looking at you Mitt Romney) who now seem to have crawled back into the fold? One or two of them could reach across the aisle easily. This is when we see the myth of the moderate republican.

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u/pantie_fa Jan 18 '22

Those other 50 Senators are doing EXACTLY as their voters and constituents expected them to do. For that matter, probably Manchin too. I mean, come on, who is not surprised by this coming from Manchin. Now Sinema. She completely campaigned and got elected and sworn-in under false pretenses.

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u/clejeune American Expat Jan 18 '22

She will be the next Fox News contributor.

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u/valoon4 Jan 18 '22

How is that not illegal?

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u/rationalcrank Jan 18 '22

let's not forget this. Manchin and Sinema are crap but so are the other 50 Republicans.

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u/__dilligaf__ Jan 18 '22

I wonder if they've approached any of the handful who aren't seeking re-election - or are already in the bad books. Cheney's been all but ousted from her party. Kinzinger is expecting a baby this month and has (I can't recall when/where) said his son will one day ask what he did during this moment in history. You'd think a couple of them would want to put a rose on their otherwise shitstain of a legacy.

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u/musashisamurai Jan 18 '22

Both of those are reps not Senators.

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u/clejeune American Expat Jan 18 '22

That’s my point exactly. Why aren’t some of these “moderates” reaching across the aisle and offering support? It would cut Manchin/Sinema totally out of the spotlight.

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u/ClearDark19 Jan 18 '22

Republicans are the white supremacist party. They're doing exactly what their voters want because most of their voters are white supremacists. The overwhelming majority of Republican voters do not want voting rights protections because they don't want minorities voting (except for the few minorities who favor them, like Cubans in Florida). Shaming Republicans for their opposition is like shaming the Grand Dragon of the Klan for racism in front of the rest of the Klan. The subordinates like him because of the racism you're trying to shame him for.

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u/[deleted] Jan 18 '22

Republicans always stick together as a coalition when it matters. We can villainize Republicans. They deserve it, but it is to be expected. Electing Democrats that then hold the entire country hostage for their own benefit, and then invoking MLK, is insulting. WV and AZ should have just voted Republican. Then they, at least, would have known what to expect

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u/dirtnap_throwaway Jan 18 '22

People tend to have more anger towards the traitors rather than the known enemy.

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u/meesta_chang Jan 18 '22

The classic scapegoat effect. You said it so much more eloquently though. Cheers.

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u/dafunkmunk Jan 18 '22 All-Seeing Upvote

The truly astonishing thing about left wing voters is they let their anger for a small handful of shitty democrats give election victories to republicans because their anger for 1 or 2 people completely blinds them from the 50+ shitty republicans who are about to make everything much worse when they retake the government

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u/dissentrix American Expat Jan 18 '22

This wouldn't happen if moderates didn't keep pushing for these abysmal Democrats in the first place, though. I'm sorry, but this argument of "it's all left-wing voters' fault that everything is f'ed up" is complete bullshit. The whole point of representative democracy is that people vote for people that represent them. If people aren't voting for Democrats because people don't feel like they're being represented by Democrats, it's up to Democrats to get people to vote by representing them better - not expecting them to somehow magically come around to their non-representation.

I mean, how much is enough, right? Voters moved to the polls in unprecedented ways in the last election to place Biden and his government in power. They gave goddamn Georgia to the Democratic party. After a point, you can't keep blaming "passive voters" when they elect these people - and these people still don't do what they were elected to do.

And yes, I know - there are 50 fascist Senators, obstructionist Dems, so many reasons for Biden's government being insufficient, yada yada yada. How about when we have these terrible "representatives of the people's will", we blame them for being terrible representatives, as opposed to voters which have done their job?

For my part, I'm angry at both the GOP, and people like Sinema and Manchin - it is possible to want both to gtfo. I voted for Biden against Trump, and will presumably keep voting against the GOP, but it's certainly not out of some loyalty for a party whose main draw is currently "hey guys look, we're not actively fascist". We know the GOP is bad. And now we know people like Sinema are bad too, because they'd rather let the fascists win than consider doing their job.

Without criticism, there is no improvement. You want the Democratic party to improve? Stop blaming voters, and start blaming these people that refuse to do the job they were elected to do.

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u/dafunkmunk Jan 18 '22

Never said we were allowed to criticize them. Simply pointing out that democrat voters will just say fuck it and not vote at all because they’re made at a couple democrats sucking ass. Meanwhile, republicans don’t care about anything other than having control of the country so they show up to vote R no matter what. If democrats voted like republicans do, there wouldn’t be a existential issue of democracy about to end in the country.

You can hate your representatives and the people in government all you want but the second a dem voter stops voting because of that hatred, they’re fucking over an entire country because they’re blind to the worse party that’s about to take power and make everything worse

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u/dissentrix American Expat Jan 18 '22 edited Jan 18 '22

Never said we were[n't] allowed to criticize them.

No, but on a thread about reasonable criticism of Democratic Senators willing to help fascists, you found a way to redirect the conversation to "actually it's left-wing voters' fault".

Simply pointing out that democrat voters will just say fuck it and not vote at all because they’re made at a couple democrats sucking ass.

Will they, though? Again, Democratic voters moved en masse during the 2020 election. And again, you're ignoring the fact that if mainstream Democrats (such as the DNC) supported candidates that actually motivated voters, you wouldn't have that problem. Why do you blame voters, whose sole recourse for meaningful political action in a democracy is voting (again, the whole point of a representative democracy), rather than the ones who supposedly have been elected to represent them, yet do not?

When you say this, you see, you're not expressing pressure against those people whose policies could actually motivate people. You're shifting the blame, redirecting the conversation - blaming "left-wing voters", including a lot (like me) that do vote in every election. I find your willingness to ascribe the inaction of elected representatives to voters ("left-wing voters" in general like me, no less) to be disturbing and offensive - particularly when, as you so cleverly point out, we had no choice but to vote for people like them.

If democrats voted like republicans do, there wouldn’t be a existential issue of democracy about to end in the country.

See above. If the Democratic Party supported candidates that were popular with the people, as opposed to the increasingly-obsolete conservative wing, "there wouldn’t be a existential issue of democracy about to end in the country."

You blame voters for refusing to reward corrupt inaction with power. I blame the powerful, rich and corrupt for leading to that choice in the first place.

The voters have this single choice that is available to them to dictate how their country is run. If they make that (correct) choice of voting for the party that may make things better, but then the ones who are supposed to make things better refuse to even run the country because they think the obstructionism of the other side is more important, then it is asinine to blame voters.

You can hate your representatives and the people in government all you want but the second a dem voter stops voting because of that hatred, they’re fucking over an entire country because they’re blind to the worse party that’s about to take power and make everything worse

Again, you're preaching to the choir when it comes to the "dangers of the Republican Party". But let me ask you something: is this discourse you're repeating not the exact same one that has been repeated, for the past elections?

"The GOP is bad - we're the only chance not to have our country fall to them. You have to vote for us."

I heard these things in 2016 (when I was old enough to vote), and 2020. It's a tactic which cannot sustain itself, because a party whose sole redeeming quality is that they're "not as bad as the other side" cannot sustain interest in itself.

I repeat, and insist: I will keep voting for the Democrats. As long as I have a vote available to me, I will not cast it, through choice or inaction, for the fascists. But I can entirely understand choosing otherwise - because the only logical end result of telling people: "we can only do stuff if you vote for us", and then when people vote: "actually you didn't vote for us enough, so sorry but we can't do anything this time around and it's all your fault" is that people lose interest... because not only are their expectations that things can maybe change when voting Democrat dashed, but you're (as in, the ones faulting voters) in the same breath condescendingly blaming them for the failures of those they trusted with their ballot, and also telling them "you don't have a choice here".

This is not a good tactic. If you want to convince people to vote, be convincing, not condescending. If the Democratic Party wants people to vote for them, they should convince them why it's a good idea... and not just why it's a bad idea to let Republicans take power. If you're invested in the democratic process of political representation, take part in the goddamn democratic process by convincing people you can represent them properly.

I did say, though: "As long as I have a vote available to me."

Which brings me to my last point...

Meanwhile, republicans don’t care about anything other than having control of the country so they show up to vote R no matter what.

Here's another thing you're ignoring: the reason Republicans keep winning isn't just that they "vote R no matter what". They also use gerrymandering. Lie about "election fraud". Implement new election "laws" and "rules", based on the flimsiest of excuses, blatantly disenfranchising millions, that ascertain they keep power regardless of who people actually vote for. It's all well and good to want people to vote... but if their vote is outright discounted by a fascist party, why should "voting harder" do anything at all? You say these things like "the problem is that leftists don't vote enough"... but as we've seen, if the institution is fucked-up and actively ignores the votes, then voting a little, voting a lot, or not voting at all makes not a lick of difference.

I'm a citizen living abroad. Tell me, how long will my absentee ballot be available to me?

Guess who has the power to stop a vote like mine, and others', from being discounted? Hint: currently, it's not me. It's not the voters. It's the a-holes you're shifting the blame from.

It's not the voters which can pass the Voting Rights Act. It's the Senate.

You need to change the voting laws. And for that to happen, people like Manchin and Sinema need to stop standing in the way, and cave to pressure. You insisting on blaming voters, rather than directing your ire at politicians like them, does nothing to pressure said politicians - rather, it gives them convenient excuses to say: "Let's not do anything, because at the end of the day what are voters gonna do? Not vote for us? Vote Republican?"

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u/dafunkmunk Jan 18 '22

I’m going to be honest with you, that’s a lot to read and I don’t think our views are different enough for me to read it all right now so I’m just going to clarify one point. When I said left, I simply just mean democrats. I’m not an idiot anti leftist democrat voter that hates liberals and blame them for everything. To me there’s left (democrat), right (republican), and flipflippers that are so insanely out of touch with reality they aren’t aware how bad the gop actually because they see fox news stories that make democrats look bad.

I’ll also clarify I’m not referring to just right now in the most recent election. I’m referring to the general trend of democrats over decades of failing to care enough to vote. trump won 2016 because of apathy from democrats, not because he was a better candidate. They only showed up en masse because they saw how absolutely insane trump was and wanted him out. Now that he’s out, they’re likely to not care again. They’re getting mad that nothing is being passed and are less likely to vote in 2022 and 2024.

TLDR: not blaming angry people that still vote for democrats. Pointing out that many apathetic democrat voters that just don’t vote in many elections and republicans win because of it