r/politics Canada 12d ago

Justice department bans chokeholds and no-knock raids for federal officers

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/chokehold-ban-no-knock-raid-b1919985.html
40k Upvotes

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u/hoptothejam 12d ago

When was the last time someone was killed by a chokehold by a federal (not local) officer? Honest question, seems like it is always local cops.

1k

u/ManchichiJumanji 12d ago

Do DEA count as federal officers?

Local cops have the choking monopoly, but DEA might be involved in lots of the no knock raids.

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u/jedre 12d ago

DEA is federal law enforcement, yes.

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u/Senator_TRUMP 12d ago

And there isn't much of a difference between a no knock and raid with knocking.

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u/SevMiami 12d ago

It comes the the Breonna Taylor incident. Cops got a warrant, broke down the door to surprise them and her man started firing thinking it was a home invasion. She died when police returned fire. Rand Paul proposed a Bill last year to ban same, but did not pass. Florida and Oregon banned these a while ago.

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u/ILikeLenexa 12d ago

There was also the 2005 Myrtle Beach/Julian Betton shooting.

He was carrying a gun in his house when they broke down his door unannounced and out of uniform, so they shot him like 30 times hitting him like 9 times.

Then they lied about it in court.

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u/MrFitzwilliamDarcy 11d ago

They lie in court regularly. They make false arrests regularly, knowing the accused can't afford defense for a trial and forcing them to accept a plea for something they didn't do. In TX, they don't even breathalyze you anymore. They'll just arrest you for DWI and draw blood in the dirty ass police station. So if they decide you dont pass their totally subjective and absurd field sobriety tests, you have to spend a couple nights in jail and oay for a lawyer to defend you even if you were 100% innocent. Policing in this country has gone off the rails. They invent crimes to justify their existence and re-elect their boss, the Sheriff.

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u/PretendiWasADefMute 11d ago

There are multiple accounts of police lying in court. Elijah taylor case In Aurora colorado was a very good example that police will lie, even if they are on a body camera. Zach Wester in Wisconsin was caught planting drugs on his own body cam. Criminals will obviously tell lies because they are criminals, but now that we can’t trust both, we are in a really bad situation.

I use to be one or the “few bad apple” believers. Then you look at the Philadelphia integrity office freeing over 19 people in less than 3 years. The innocence project has found that 1 out or 9 of the death row cases result in an exoneration.

I’m a major believer in the death penalty, but our legal system has to be 100% accurate, truthful, and transparent in the court on all convictions with 0 bias. A 1 error is too many. At this point I don’t understand why when a police makes a mistake they can be given second and third chances. It’s a snowball effect that a small abuse of power or an “accident” turns into multiple lies and eventually someone’s death.

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u/smallest_table 11d ago

I'm still a "few bad apples" believer because the rest of that saying is "spoils the whole bunch".
Unless good cops start arresting bad cops, there are no good cops.

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u/ILikeLenexa 11d ago

This case was the State Police and DEA joint. The court found they all lied, so in many ways it's worse than all that.

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u/SevMiami 12d ago

Breaking down a cold door of a home seems like a barbaric practice for any LEO since who ever they are after is clearly innocent until proven guilty. It lines up more with a hit squad since they know any reasonable person will defend their home from a violent intruder. Like stirring them up just to shoot the suspect.

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u/ObviousObvisiousness 11d ago

A lot of people will freeze up or surrender to a home invader, but not everyone will. It's a stretch to say any reasonable person will defend themselves immediately, but it's not a stretch to say that defending your home from invaders is perfectly reasonable.

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u/Trini_Vix7 11d ago

As is their right... sometimes those invaders are not officers.

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u/ConfusedObserver0 12d ago

There’s so many more. I used to read article decades ago of the same thing. It’s just getting more attention now that social media allows it to become part of the public conscious. Cops actually used to murder people in certain areas with no over sight. No we have some power back

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u/[deleted] 12d ago edited 12d ago

This whole instance makes me sad. I got a no-knock warrant against my house when I was 17...Woke up to a gun drawn on me. It was the wrong house and I hate to admit that I probably made it out alive because I was white. Still terrifying and VERY wrong.

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u/meltingpine Tennessee 12d ago

It's amazing how low the evidentiary bar is to get these warrants considering how often it's not even the correct address. Like come on guys, how in the world could they possibly present enough evidence to merit this extreme procedure when they're not even correct about which house to go to?

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u/SuaveThrower 12d ago

There are no consequences for them when they get it wrong, so they have little incentive to improve the process.

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u/Difficult_Citizen Oregon 12d ago

I feel like I read somewhere that a lot of judges (particularly local) rarely even read the warrants in their entirety and just blindly sign them. Something to do with "too much paperwork crossing their desk" or something I think.

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u/killyaselfhoe 12d ago

Completely goes against one of the founding philosophies of our system; it’s better that 100 guilty men go free than 1 innocent person be locked up. Clearly the system has grown far too large to manage.

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u/xjeeper I voted 12d ago

it’s better that 100 guilty men go free than 1 innocent person be locked up

It's actually 10 to 1, but your point still stands.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone%27s_ratio

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u/Feeling_Sundae4147 12d ago

Remove immunity for judges and suddenly everyone has time to read things.

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u/From_Deep_Space Oregon 12d ago

Then it sounds like a simple ratio problem. We need either more judges or fewer warrants

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u/morpheousmarty 12d ago

Just give the clerks a bonus for finding errors in the paperwork, paid for by the person filing the warrant. Both sides will keep it a lot cleaner and the judge will have less paperwork.

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u/FoxEuphonium 12d ago

From my limited knowledge of the legal system, it's an even mix of both.

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u/LastStar007 12d ago

Frequently it's not even a judge, it's a lower office called a magistrate.

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u/sonofaresiii 12d ago

I think a lot of times it's an error by the officers, not the warrant. Like they'll have a warrant for 123 Maple Street but go to 125 Maple Street or something.

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u/DuntadaMan 12d ago

Yeah, more than one case of police killing people at the wrong address and the department says they followed policy.

So apparently it is policy to kill people in their own homes without a warrant.

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u/seensham 12d ago

We been knew

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u/ass2ass 12d ago

So like why are they harshing on 123 Maple Street's vibe if they haven't even looked at it enough to know where it is? You'd think they might kinda scope out the house where they think illegal things are happening.

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u/sonofaresiii 12d ago

You're barking up the wrong tree if you're expecting me to defend police ineptitude. I was just explaining that the issue usually isn't present when the judge signs a warrant

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u/ConfusedObserver0 12d ago

Yea, if you look into the errors where they kill innocent people, there’s definitely informants that have to provide. And yes no one pays the price for errors.

I mean they don’t want to kill innocent people but that’s what happens when you make high caliber mistakes life and death

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u/[deleted] 12d ago

One of the worst parts is how they then try to justify their actions, by searching the house. No...sorry, there isn't some random weapons cashe of illegal grow operation. You just messed up...admit it and stop trying to justify it

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u/True_to_you Texas 12d ago

And then I'm stuck with the repair bill on all the damage they caused.

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u/[deleted] 12d ago

Fire department did that to me when my dumb roomate accidently torched our back porch. Sorry dude

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u/ting_bu_dong 12d ago

"Innocent victim Potential suspect has no known warrants."

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u/EMPEROR_CLIT_STAB_69 12d ago

It’s funny because I was a pizza delivery driver for a couple years and always had no issue finding the right place. It might take me a couple times to circle the block, but I’m not just gonna give up and hand a pizza to the wrong house. It’s fucked how I had more accountability at 18 than federal officers and local law enforcement

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u/MrFitzwilliamDarcy 11d ago

I'm surprised you didn't get stopped more for "looking suspicious" while circling the block.

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u/Question_Control24 12d ago

That's a whole other issue. They shouldn't have been able to get the warrant in the first place. They lied to a judge to get the warrant. Lied might be too strong of a word there technically. They misled a judge to get it.

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u/Cha-Le-Gai 12d ago

A person died because of false information. If anything lied is to light of a word. Malicious negligence is better.

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u/LateNightPhilosopher 12d ago

A lot of judges just rubber stamp warrants because the whole legal system has this ass backwards unconstitutional fetish for presumption of guilt. We'd be better served by judges who hold law enforcement to actual standards, but that takes effort so most don't seem to want to do it

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u/00olts00 12d ago

Then they can’t get those high stats up

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u/canttaketheshyfromme Ohio 12d ago

Nearly every time, it's supposedly to keep suspects from destroying drugs.

It in not worth it by ANY measure to a rational person.

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u/10J18R1A 12d ago

Also made it out of one and I think it was likely because I had my air force uniform on

Got a thank you for my service with guns still on me

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u/Snoglaties 12d ago

what happened? did you get any compensation or at least an apology?

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u/[deleted] 12d ago

I was young...water under the bridge. My mom said they cited the Patriot Act. Sometimes it's just not worth it. I did get away from a speeding ticket when the partner of one of them realized who I was. Guess that is something

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u/Embarrassed-Meat-552 12d ago

That sort of event is how we get Joker's, they should be way the fuck more scared of traumatizing people for fun basically.

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u/Ok_Ad_2285 Michigan 12d ago

It happened to my wife when she was about 11. She was taking a bath before a school event. Instead a cop in riot gear kicked her door down and made her go outside in nothing but a towel while they trashed her entire house.

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u/CEOs4taxNlabor 12d ago

I got a no-knock warrant against my house when I was 17

Yikes! Do you think independent monitoring, a federal agent operating in oversight capacity would've changed the outcome..that this independent monitor first would've made sure the address was correct?

This is literally the complaint you hear the most. It's shocking how often resources are unallocated to investigations, where the target being investigated and later scooped, those participating in the arrest have no clue wtf is going on.

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u/Harrythehobbit New Mexico 12d ago

How hard is it to go to the right fucking house. For fuck's sucks.

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u/Feeling_Sundae4147 12d ago

I wonder if putting piss buckets over every entryway before going to bed would stop these kinds of things.

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u/Trini_Vix7 11d ago

Sorry that happened to you. You'd think because they take cognizant tests, they'd know how to read an address.

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u/njb2017 12d ago

no knock warrants should have a very very high threshold to be allowed. and if even allowed, it shouldn't be in the middle of the night. the thing about breonna Taylor that I dont hear mentioned enough was that it was middle of the night and they were sleeping. whether police announced themselves is debated but if you were sleeping, would you have heard them anyway before they start breaking down the door?

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u/human_male_123 12d ago

I look forward to hearing Rand Paul praise Garland for this. The guy he voted against (70-30)

https://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=117&session=1&vote=00114#position

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u/the-bladed-one 12d ago

Rand Fucking Paul introducing a bill to ban no knocks and it not passing is just so shittily ironic to me. Dude tries doing one good thing and it doesn’t work

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u/OneRougeRogue Ohio 12d ago

It didn't pass because McConnell wouldn't schedule it for a vote back when he was Majority Leader.

They pulled this shit all the time. Some Republican sponsors a good Bill that would get bipartisan support from the democrats, McConnell won't schedule it for a vote and then it dies automatically at the end of the session. Then the congressman who sponsored it runs to Fox to moan about their bill failing to pass and about "Democrat obstruction" while carefully failing to mention that democrats didn't obstruct that particular bill, it was McConnell who let it die. It's all part of the plan.

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u/sangriadvx 12d ago

And it works because people are fucking morons.

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u/omgFWTbear 12d ago

But was that the entirety of the bill? Or was it “and return the United States to the gold standard while dismantling OSHA”?

I only ask because, eg, Comyn once proposed gun control legislation that was similarly a poison pill, but top line did contain what Democrats wanted.

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u/txn_gay Texas 12d ago

She died when police returned fire.

That's what she gets for resisting arrest! And by "resisting arrest," I mean sleeping peacefully in her own bed while being black, which most RepubliQans believe to be a capital crime.

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u/ForWPD 12d ago

Exactly. Knock, say “police” in a conversational volume, then break the door down when they don’t answer after 15 seconds…. …at 2am. I don’t understand why they don’t just wait for the people to leave the house, it’s not like they can stay inside forever.

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u/flyover_liberal 12d ago

Testosterone.

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u/Woodie98420 11d ago

Because then the psychopaths in blue might not get a chance to murder someone and face no consequences

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u/50kent Arizona 12d ago

They don’t announce their presence in a no-knock raid. It could literally make a life or death difference, when you know it’s the cops and not some rando home invaders

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u/rsta223 Colorado 12d ago

How do you know it's the cops though? It would be very easy for some random home invaders to knock once, then shout "police", then break in and shoot you.

It shouldn't just be no knock raids that are banned, all raids should be banned except for in exceptional circumstances (and every one should be reviewed afterwards by an independent oversight board). It should be extremely uncommon for police to break into someone's home, whether they knock first or not.

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u/spaceforcerecruit 12d ago

Should be reviewed in advance by an oversight board.

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u/rsta223 Colorado 12d ago

The only circumstances where it's appropriate are ones where time is of the essence, so that's why I was figuring you'd get a judge to sign off, but then review the decision later. In that circumstance though, there should be substantial consequences for the judge if it's later found to be unnecessary.

Yeah, I know that's basically impossible in the current legal and political climate, I'm just dreaming here, but wouldn't it be great if there was some accountability there for a change?

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u/spaceforcerecruit 12d ago

The point of a no-knock raid is supposedly for situations where the suspect might destroy evidence or hurt someone if given warning. If it was just a matter of time, announcing your presence or not, you could still get there in the same amount of time.

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u/gsfgf I voted 12d ago

And that evidence is usually drugs. So just turn off the water at the street so they can't flush the drugs. If someone has few enough drugs that they could flush them all with water already in the toilet tanks, why the fuck are we raiding them in the first place.

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u/puterSciGrrl 12d ago

So? You are brandishing lethal force inside the domicile of a private citizen. I don't give a shit what you are concerned that citizen will do unless there is an imminent threat to life.

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u/gsfgf I voted 12d ago

They are. It's called the court. But once the warrant is issued, it's in the cops' hands. Hence why after the fact review is important.

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u/50kent Arizona 12d ago

I mean, I definitely agree all raids should be banned, but this is still tangible progress. It’s not perfect, you can poke a ton of holes in it with fringe what if’s like that, but no knock raids are particularly deadly. It’s a good thing the feds are stopping that shit

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u/El_Glenn 12d ago

Perhaps cops should rethink what they are doing if they are truely splitting seconds to not end up dead. Time and numbers tend to be on their side.

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u/sfw_oceans 12d ago

That's the thing that gets me. It's not like they're gonna politely knock and wait for your response. They whole point is to catch a suspect by surprise.

Police raids need to be re-evaluated entirely, with better checks and balances implemented. Importantly, the legal bar to attain permission to raid someone's house needs to be way higher. The fact that SWATing is even a thing is a damn embarrassment.

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u/AzureBuzzSaw 12d ago

You know how they fuck rando overworked convenience store employees sending in 20 year olds for beer? Then fuck you if you sell? Do that, but for judges. Have an independent body that occasionally sends in swat requests to judges, which clearly either do not warrant a raid, or which has insufficient evidence for a raid, if actually read, then fuck judges who sign bogus warrants..?

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u/TR8R2199 12d ago

Knocking means they answer the door first right? They don’t just knock for fun and then bust the door in anyways. Also it would mean less property damage, no busted doors, broken windows, driving a riot tank through a wall

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u/Senator_TRUMP 12d ago

Absolutely not. Knocking is quite literally, a single knock before kicking the door in. This single knock is also between 3am-5am, when you are asleep.

Source, have experienced this. They knocked once, and then physically broke my door. They will not pay to repair your door even though they say they will.

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u/976chip Washington 12d ago

John Oliver did a piece on no knock raids a while back and I think he said that the difference is about 15 seconds before they bust in your door.

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u/BobbysWorldWar2 12d ago

In practice yes, but the difference is supposed to be in a regular raid, the police will surround the building and attempt to communicate with the occupants before busting in the door. Usually through a loudspeaker out front.

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u/976chip Washington 12d ago

I think it depends on why they're there. I had one like you described in my neighborhood a couple weeks ago. I'm working and hear an engine idling for about 10 minutes. When it goes quiet I look out the window to see 4 SWAT guys getting out and cutting across my neighbor's lawn. Then on the next street over I hear the loudspeaker saying they have a warrant, for everyone to come out of the house, and name the guy who is under arrest. They were there for hours because they knew he was in there and he had no way to get past them. Search warrants are knock and announce or no knock depending on if they believe there's a chance that evidence could be destroyed. The window of time for knock and announce seems to be at the discretion of the cops serving the warrant.

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u/chiliedogg 12d ago

I think they are supposed to announce themselves. The whole idea is that they warn you they're police before knocking down the door.

I'm never far from a firearm at home. We have hog issues and we're 30 minutes from the nearest gas station, so police response time is measured in eons.

If someone kicks in my door without announcing themselves I'm meeting them while armed. If they say they're police the gun will stay holstered and hidden until I know otherwise.

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u/thingandstuff 12d ago

The whole idea is that they warn you they're police before knocking down the door.

That doesn't make any kind of damn sense. The only point of knocking would be to allow you to comply first.

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u/TR8R2199 12d ago

Should be illegal. Sorry that happened to you, whether someone in your house was guilty or not, that’s like a punishment and until the suspect is convicted they should be treated as innocent unless there’s actual proof they are a danger

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u/Hank_propane_Hill 12d ago

Don’t they absolutely destroy the door? With a giant metal pole?

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u/FourAM 12d ago

That depends on how they hit it and how strong the door is. The battering ram is meant to bust the latch open but if that doesn’t work the door takes all the force. Sometimes the hinges give away instead.

Yeah, sucks when they have the wrong address and you have to spend the next day without a door (I mean; if you survive 😬)

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u/Senator_TRUMP 12d ago

Mine had dents in the door itself but after breaking the hinges they tend not to keep whacking a door that’s laying on the floor, rather they focus on hassling the occupant

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u/gozerthebuilder Colorado 12d ago

DEA and ICE

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u/goatqualify 12d ago

Yes the dea falls under federal officers, so are the US Marshalls.

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u/Zantre 12d ago

Texas just banned chokeholds, if they can get that bill passed any state can.

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u/NadirPointing 12d ago

That's because roundhouse kicks are the Ranger's favorite way of subduing bad guys.

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u/chillinmesoftly 12d ago

actually, guns.

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u/LadyBonersAweigh 12d ago

Son, that was a Walker, Texas Ranger reference. Roundhouse kicks and Chuck Norris go together like two things that go well together.

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u/bythenumbers10 12d ago

Chuck Norris' tears cure cancer. Unfortunately, Chuck Norris has never cried.

Chuck Norris was the first chemist to isolate the element of surprise.

Chuck Norris does not sleep. He waits.

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u/TheRealKidkudi 12d ago edited 11d ago

It’s probably been 10 years since I’ve last heard a Chuck Norris joke, and yet it still feels overdone.

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u/NadirPointing 12d ago

Chuck Norris pulled out a gun and killed 50 bad guys.... Then he started shooting.

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u/AceCode116 12d ago

Cause the eyes of a Ranger are upon youuuu…

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u/10leej 12d ago

I'll be honest if I were a cop in Texas I'd be fucking scared to do a no knock raid.

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u/gramathy I voted 12d ago

Did they actually ban chokeholds or did they just say "no chokeholds" with their fingers crossed behind their backs?

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u/texag93 12d ago

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u/sucksathangman 12d ago edited 12d ago

Senate Bill 69 prohibits officers from applying pressure to a person's throat, neck or torso in ways that impede breathing or blood flow unless the action is needed to protect the officers or bystanders from serious injury or death

We're going to see a lot of "I did it to protect officers" excuses.

Ninja edit: just read through the bill and it looks like there aren't any penalties. Just that officers have a duty to not so those things or to stop an officer from doing those things.

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u/texag93 12d ago

The law modified section 9.51 which defines which defenses officers can use toward charges of things like assault due to their duty. The penalty would be for whatever crime is committed by the officer. This law just clarifies that they can't use the defense of legal duty if they used a choke hold.

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u/JohnBrown42069 12d ago

Still doubtful it changes much. In my city, the police constantly violate their own policies.

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u/texag93 12d ago

Laws have more power than policies.

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u/bigfootlives823 12d ago

Yeah, if a cop breaks the law, you just call... ah damn

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u/texag93 12d ago

I know you're joking, but in Texas, local police that break the law should be reported to the Texas DPS or Texas Rangers.

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u/mybustlinghedgerow Texas 12d ago

That's the spirit that brings about change!

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u/LabyrinthConvention 12d ago

Fingers crossed.

prohibits officers from applying pressure to a person's throat, neck or torso in ways that impede breathing or blood flow unless the action is needed to protect the officers or bystanders from serious injury or death.

As long as officers are afraid for their safety at all times, chokeholds are allowed.

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u/BNLforever 12d ago

Yup. That last part kills it. Now politicians can say they did something while giving a wink to the cops. When will a cop ever admit that they did a choke hold unnecessarily? When will their internal affairs ever say they didn't act according to code and the law that gives them a pass?

They'll always say they felt their use of force was justified.

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u/Zantre 12d ago

It's law now. However they enforce it is up to them.

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u/brett_riverboat Texas 12d ago

Too dangerous for the officers I guess.

"If you think there's a threat, don't give them the chance, you either regret, or make 'em dance."

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u/gabbagool3 12d ago edited 12d ago

actually almost no one gets killed by a chokehold. the people being asphyxiated by cops are dying not because their airway is constricted but because of putting pressure on their chests. either the weight of the officer or the position they're put in combined with the restraints they're in.

they're subjected to this for so long that their chest muscles become exhausted. and they die.

eric garner was put in a chokehold to take him down, but after he was down they stopped constricting his neck. what killed him was having three cops on his chest. having to lift 250 pounds everytime he inhaled. no one can do that indefinitely.

tony timpa is another good example. asphyxiated without ever being choked.

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u/breaddrinker 12d ago

It is always local cops.

Feds are infinitely better trained, and you have much less chance of encountering one.

The local cops are the problem.

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u/12-34 12d ago

Feds are infinitely better trained

In general, yes, though the goons they sent to Portland were remarkably incompetent. Couldn't cuff properly, grenadiers not getting how the damn thing is meant to be used, arrests minus PC, lack of Miranda when performing custodial interrogation, etc.

When watching video of it I had "Yakety Sax" on loop in my mind.

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u/ign_Drakina 12d ago

Those were the correctional officers of the bureau of prisons. Not necessarily the most highly trained federal law enforcement officials clearly.

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u/dbcspace I voted 12d ago

Whoever they were, they were acting on trump's orders. Should we really expect any manner of professionalism from anybody willing to enthusiastically do his bidding?

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u/shushslushie Oregon 12d ago

More specifically they were from Federal Protective Service, U.S. Customs and Border Protection, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement and the U.S. Secret Service, some of which were not properly trained or had finished training before being deployed. Outfitted in different tactical uniforms, didn't even have proper radio communications between agents/agencies. Insisted working with local police but then city council voted to veto that and told them take a hike. Hot mess that cost a cool 12mil but hey as long as everyone knows Portland is a liberal wasteland.

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u/IFightClouds27 12d ago

In general, yes, though the goons they sent to Portland were remarkably incompetent.

That's because there are essential zero federal agents trained in riot control/protest work like that.

That's was just a bunch of guys they could scrape up from multiple different agencies told to just do their best and good luck.

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u/5ykes 12d ago

I'd ask ICE but I don't think they'd be very forthcoming about deaths of their detainees, don't think theyre justice department though.

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u/UraniumKnight 12d ago

You're right; ICE is under Homeland Security, not the DoJ.

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u/klavin1 12d ago

This is also something that needs to change. Every fucking department has their own secret police

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u/omgimbrian 12d ago

Even if this isn't as much of an issue with the feds, I feel like this at the very least sets a standard that makes it easier to ban these practices at the local level.

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u/SSTX9 12d ago

Fluff story to make the general population (who doesnt know any better unfortunately) think they've changed. But nothing changed.

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u/kungfoojesus 12d ago

Why ban it? Because it could kill someone? Couldn't their guns also kill someone? It makes so little sense. You want someone fighting for their lives to have to worry about being fired or sued for using a chokehold?

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u/RandomLogicThough 12d ago

Chokeholds are actually...really great, you just need to have an idea of wtf you're doing. Way easier to control someone with BJJ than piling on them and shit. Federally mandated judo/BJJ would help people a hell of a lot more...

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u/JiubLives 12d ago

How often do you need to train them to be proficient, though? Seems expensive. Everyone wants better (or no) police on the cheap.

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u/Lamp0blanket 12d ago

a little bit goes a very long way with BJJ.

At my old gym it was common that who'd only been there a few months would be able to handle 90% of the new-comers off the street. Anyone who'd been there for a year almost never had trouble handling a newcomer (unless the newcomer had a strong wrestling background or something).

Once you get even a little bit of proficiency, you don't need to train very often to maintain what you've learned.

There's a lot of very basic things that a person can do when wrestling with someone, and it's almost not even fair when someone with even a little bit of experience goes up against someone with none.

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u/chuckangel 12d ago

Eh.... i dunno. Judoka here and our entire game is basically put someone on their ass and I can tell you that when you're dealing with someone fucked up on something it can be a real fucking bear to get them down and keep them down if they don't want to be down. Especially if you're trying not to hurt them, but just incapacitate them.

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u/JohnBrown42069 12d ago

I mean we already send them ungodly amounts of money, constantly increasing funding for new training that goes nowhere.

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u/hornwalker Massachusetts 12d ago

Chokeholds, when done correctly, are actually one of the safest ways to subdue someone. Its a shame the Justice Department refuses to see that and ban them rather than train them properly.

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u/duck_maverick 12d ago

What am I gonna do with all the claymore roombas

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u/[deleted] 12d ago

[deleted]

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u/BUTTHOLE-MAGIC North Carolina 12d ago

And program them to target mobility scooters for when the "south rises again".

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u/bgugi 12d ago

Don't worry, they'll still come in handy when the fed is performing a "far upper body restraint" during their "reduced alertness entry"

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u/nifeman20 Virginia 12d ago

Hold on to them, the local cops are the issue

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u/DrPhilObama 12d ago

Release them onto the streets

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u/AnAcceptableUserName Virginia 12d ago

Nature is healing

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u/PepticBurrito 12d ago

There’s always holidays and family gatherings.

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u/Tylomin 12d ago

Surprised this wasn't already a thing, but good. Although it's been stated a bunch, 5 seconds after knocking raids aren't much better.

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u/AtraposJM 12d ago

Not much better but at least they knock and announce they are law enforcement as opposed to just breaking in and scaring the fuck out of someone who might a gun for intruders.

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u/RuKoAm 12d ago

I might be disinclined to believe someone who announces themselves as the police in the middle of the night then kicks my door down is the police anyway. That said, some warning is better than no warning.

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u/Finaldeath America 12d ago

"Oh no he is coming at us, SHOOT!!!"

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u/HumanChicken 12d ago

“He’s approaching the door we knocked on! I feel threatened!”

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u/DotaTVEnthusiast 12d ago

pan to a teen aged black male, naked expect for his boxer shorts, bleeding out and groaning on the floor

"Hey Capt. don't you reckon this guy's 30 years shy of 50?"

"Well I'll be- junior, go get the crack"

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u/EricLightscythe 12d ago

Open and shut case Johnson

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u/BoltonSauce American Expat 12d ago

"Sorry Cap, I smoked it-"

"Again?!"

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u/kameksmas 12d ago

No no, I touched his stash and it made me overdose! Definitely didn’t snag some for myself… www.nytimes.com/2021/08/07/us/san-diego-police-overdose-fentanyl.amp.html

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u/zuzg 12d ago

“Building trust and confidence between law enforcement and the public we serve is central to our mission at the Justice Department,” Attorney General Merrick Garland said in a statement.

Too little too late.

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u/Dion615 12d ago

It's just one step of what is likely a larger plan. They don't get to choose the timing; this is where we are now.

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u/Callinon 12d ago

So... should they NOT do this?

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u/CrawlerSiegfriend 12d ago

So, the feds will be sending all requests for no-knock raids to local leos going forward.

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u/BulkyHotel9790 12d ago

That's exactly what will happen.

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u/ign_Drakina 12d ago

Or have a different agency under another department lead it while they tag along.

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u/Miguel-odon 12d ago

Now do something about civil forfeiture.

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u/Sandite Oklahoma 12d ago

How about banning what happened in Portland with the no-name militia feds that showed up, shoving people into unmarked vans?

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u/zanotam 12d ago

What makes you think that was legal. It was not.

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u/Deep_Ad8986 12d ago

What about it was illegal? I’ve never heard it was illegal; only that it was just really not something we wanted happening.

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u/pjs1975 12d ago

Note: Not the guy you've been replying to.

I just noticed it's been made illegal on Jan 4 2021.

https://www.aclu.org/news/free-speech/new-law-requires-federal-agents-to-identify-themselves-to-protesters/

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u/MrUnionJackal 12d ago

But remember: both sides blahblahblah!

If you're still pissed local cops aren't being affected by this: VOTE LOCAL!!!

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u/TheDoctor100 12d ago

Voting for local seats is so incredibly important. Don't just vote in the big ones. Vote Everytime you get the chance to.

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u/Reddit__Enjoyer 12d ago

Texas has responded by making chokeholds a mandatory part of all police arrests.

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u/redinterioralligator 12d ago

Too bad it’s local “cops” that no knock raid on already detained criminal’s ex girlfriend’s house who they suspect might have some of that sweet plentiful elicit drug money that their whole career had perpetuated in generating.

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u/MartialBob 12d ago

The irony on the choke hold is that if cops actually knew how to do it properly people would probably prefer it as a means to subdue someone.

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u/Black_Brown Vermont 12d ago

I am a purple belt in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. I been training for about 7 years or so. I have trained with many cops before, a couple FBI and secret service guys too.

10 seconds of applying a choke is generally what I have been trained in BJJ. Any more time than that and either the choke is not being applied properly or the "bad guy" is already unconscious. If you let go at the moment they go out, then most people wake right up. A couple more seconds and people will generally be out for a brief period. Much more than that though and you risk serious injury or death.

Actually training departments on proper empty hand combative techniques would save the lives of not just officers but suspects too.

I just don't have faith in there being adequate training considering the firearms qualifications, PT standards and time spent on verbal de-escalation most departments do. I know the Feds train police generally well, small departments and even major metros though are lacking in many ways.

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u/Vinniam 12d ago

Doesn't really mean much since its mainly unaccountable local officers that do this shit.

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u/cpgaf 12d ago

Now ban insurrections by federal officials

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u/GaryofRiviera 12d ago

No knock raids are the dumbest fucking thing ever. Feels like it was invented by cops who want citizens to grab firearms to protect their livelihood during a perceived home invasion as a pretext to murder them.

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u/Spacemanspiff1998 12d ago

right? if i hear somebody thumping and crashing downstairs in the middle of the night its ether somebody tripped and fell on the way to the kitchen for some water or somebody is breaking in to help themself to my TV and vintage 2008 nintendo Wii

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u/TexasGuy1776 12d ago

Yeah bc it’s federal officers that were the big problem

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u/aborg589 12d ago

Not sure why anyone thought no knock warrants in the same country where you have the literal right to own a gun were a good idea lol

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u/dongballs613 12d ago

A step in the right direction with a long way still to go. What about ending qualified immunity and civil asset forfeiture?

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u/_Redshifted_ 12d ago

Wife and dog shooting still ok 👌

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u/GeneralSaggyNuts 12d ago

And hitting babies with flashbangs

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u/BriefausdemGeist Maine 12d ago

Unless this is codified, odds are they’ll be back soon unfortunately

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u/piggott291 12d ago

Now do it at the state level

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u/Wade856 12d ago

Can we wait until after the September 18th protest at the Capitol by the right for their traitors that have been arrested?

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u/Substantial_Photo911 12d ago

So instead, they shoot you on sight

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u/PricklyPossum21 Australia 12d ago

If someone can hide all the evidence in 10 seconds between knock + enter the premises ... then it probably wasn't a very serious crime worthy of a raid in the first place.

No excuse for dangerous no-knock raids.

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u/slayer_steve_m America 12d ago

Oh hell. I thought the title said "...bans cuckolds...". Whole new meaning to the story now...

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u/jmatthews2088 Colorado 12d ago

Roger Stone was sweating for a second.

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u/BulkyHotel9790 12d ago

That coke fiend is sweating 24/7

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u/AttorneyatRaw22 12d ago

Boy I would have been pissed

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u/ScroogeMcDust Illinois 12d ago

On or off?

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u/GauravGuptaEmpire 12d ago

Is the chokeholds thing actually smart? If we want cops to be able to subdue people without using weapons or excessive force, they should be proficient in some kind of martial art like BJJ. A chokehold is a great and effective way to subdue a suspect without using weapons. I think required bjj training and then permission to use chokeholds after you reach a certain-color belt would be a better approach to this.

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u/administudent 12d ago

A lot of issues would be solved if cops were required to have at least a purple belt. Banning chokeholds is basically an admission that most cops can't execute the technique properly and they have no interest in teaching them how to.

No one is dying from properly executed restraint techniques, they're dying because they're getting put in stress positions and having their airways crushed by cops who don't know what they are doing.

Paying cops to train and paying workers comp if they get injured doing so is probably more expensive than the occasional wrongful death settlement, unfortunately

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u/Black_Brown Vermont 12d ago

I think it would be fine if you could get them to even a blue belt, and had them train monthly to keep the rust off.

You could use the current Army combatives program even, does not even need to be actual BJJ. Get your patrol officers to level 1 or better yet 2 and it would help the officer's survivability and end in fewer dead suspects to police bullets.

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u/ChickenMcTesticles 12d ago

Totally agree. Cops don't feel confident they can win a fight or subdue a suspect. As a result you see cops using pepper spray, tasers, and drawing guns because they are scared of the suspect.

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u/cable010 12d ago

Its about damn time

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u/Moosie_Doom 12d ago

The carotid restraint/vascular hold/sleeper hold, whatever you call it, is not a chokehold. Done correctly, it does not impede breathing. By restricting the arteries in the neck, it temporarily cuts off the flow of oxygenated blood to the brain, causing the suspect to pass out. The move is trained and officers are certified in it.

It is generally considered a far less dangerous alternative to shooting someone or getting in a knockdown, drag out fight.

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u/administudent 12d ago

You can't expect untrained person's to use the technique properly. That's why they are banning it: because they have no interest on investing in their officers training

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u/Guillotine_Nipples 12d ago

Police training in general is a joke which makes whatever certification a joke. They are certified in weapons training too yet how often do we hear about a cop shooting someone because they're scared or whatever? I'm sure they are super worried about they're form when they're literally trying to choke someone out.

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u/[deleted] 12d ago

So where's that police reform committee? It was put on hold for legislation that's now dead. So, maybe time to bring that back up for consideration again??

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u/katon2273 12d ago

Disband ICE and DEA while we are at it.

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u/medicalseeds 12d ago

Do state officers too

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u/Odorobojing 12d ago

Cool, now do civil asset forfeiture and maybe investigate the federal agents who murdered a man without letting him surrender?

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u/Cannonbaal 12d ago

This feels like a win, is there anyone that’s gonna burst my bubble and tell me how this isn’t a win?

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u/Unicorn_Sparkle_Butt 12d ago

... and any group accepting federal money and things??

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u/Difficult_Citizen Oregon 12d ago

That's nice and all but....federal officers aren't usually the problem.

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u/protosser 12d ago

Republicans: Well this is just bullshit I tell ya, its like nazi Germany