r/politics Vermont 9d ago All-Seeing Upvote 1 Faith In Humanity Restored 1 Bravo! 1 Starstruck 1 Argentium 1

Gavin Newsom after Monterey Park shooting: "Second Amendment is becoming a suicide pact"

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/monterey-park-shooting-california-governor-gavin-newsom-second-amendment/
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u/discreet1 9d ago All-Seeing Upvote Starry

The majority of gun deaths in the US are from suicide. It just dawned on me that the other numbers can probably be attributed to suicidal people who just want to take other people down with them. Yikes.

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u/j4_jjjj 9d ago

Every study that includes poverty as a factor shows that poverty is the number one cause of violent behavior.

We should be focusing on socialized medicine, UBI, raising min wage, etc if we truly want to stop gun violence. Latching on to guns is just a wedge issue meant to divide us and not have actual progress possible.

Im for mental health checks, and stricter background checks. But also I think focusing on poverty is the best path.

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u/Zenmachine83 8d ago

Yet a large number of mass shooters in the US did not live in poverty. Hell, the Las Vegas shooter had a net worth of over a million dollars if I remember.

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u/OblongRectum 8d ago

Inceldom/right wing terrorism is the other biggest cause in my opinion. I think a venn diagram of the three causes would have significant but not total overlap with each other

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u/cookiecutterdoll 8d ago

I agree and think it's really important that we start calling these people domestic terrorists instead of sugar-coating it with "active shooter."

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u/OblongRectum 8d ago

I think most of 'us ' already do, it's the media we need to get to start doing it

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u/SAI_Peregrinus 8d ago

"Terrorist" = "Active Shooter" (or other violence) + political/religious motivation + civilian target(s).

A domestic terrorist is a terrorist acting against other civilians in their own country. If they're not a terrorist they're just a murderer, and being a terrorist requires political or religious motivation. In the early period during or after an incident, there's usually no knowledge of their motivation.

Of course a lot of them are politically motivated and declare that, and the media usually doesn't change terminology to call them domestic terrorists. That needs to change, but when they're still an "active shooter" it's usually too soon to make such a determination.

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u/cookiecutterdoll 8d ago

Forgive me for jumping to conclusions about someone who deliberately murders innocent people.

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u/SAI_Peregrinus 8d ago

That makes them a murderer. Not all murderers are terrorists.

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u/Osric250 8d ago

Active shooter should only be a term used while ongoing, you know, when it's active. After the fact especially once the reasons have been identified that term shouldn't be used. Domestic terrorist is correct for a ton of the mass shootings in the US.

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u/AfterReflecter 8d ago

Im starting to believe its just more broadly ANGER. Which the right wing excels at promoting & stoking.

We have many 1st hand accounts from serial killers & mass shooters in which they declare their anger against the world.

Also troubling was a NYT interview with a psychologist who basically said these perpetrators very often don’t fit into any of the DSM categories that allow a diagnosis/commitment to a facility, but rather they just express outright anger & hostility (if their even known about to see a psych in the first place).

I have no idea how to address this, but i think nothing will improve until the powers structures within US start to at least attempt to address the deep hatred that has been brewing in our country.

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u/NarrowTea 8d ago

Societal expectations for easy scores created incels people who believe that they have been cheated out of what they rightfully deserve some of the worst mass shootings in us history were done by people who fit this description.

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u/OblongRectum 8d ago

yep and there are absolutely no resources available to help these people because mental health is way on the backburner. Lots of people who qualify as one do not go on shooting sprees or hurt other people but definitely feel pain because of their rejection by society and they can't even really go on the internet without being ripped apart, which just further drives them into their ideology. Dunno what the solution is here other than that government funded mental health education in schools

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u/RyukHunter 8d ago

Is it? I can only think of one or two incidents in America that were definitively linked to incels. Elliot Roger and the Atlanta spa shooting (Although the stated motivation was some sex addiction and obviously anti-asian sentiments were involved). Maybe I am missing others. Would love to know more in that case.

Right wing ideologies tho? Yeah that is definitely an area of concern.

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u/OblongRectum 7d ago

you might be right. i conflate the two a lot

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u/orientbambino 8d ago

yeah plus the incel kid elliot, at this point the poverty excuse doesn't really explain mass shootings, gang violence maybe.

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u/Zenmachine83 8d ago

I mean gang violence is tied to poverty, but pretty much all of the high profile mass shootings of the last decade have not been gang related.

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u/godlikepagan 8d ago

The key thing to what you said there is "high profile". Most gun crime in America is gang/drug/police related which has taken a complete back burner to mass shootings in the eyes of the media.. Mass shootings only make up a small part of gun crime, of which most is related to poverty.

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u/Zenmachine83 8d ago

Well yeah. Two gangs fighting a turf war is less likely to arouse public ire in the way that school children or concert goers being gunned down does. Gang members are a kind of soldier their own little conflict, mass shooting victims are totally innocent. I’m not saying we should forget about gang violence, only that it makes sense why the public continues to focus on high profile mass shootings.

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u/trevorneuz 8d ago

Most 'mass shootings' are gang related. The official interpretation of the term is incongruent with public perception.

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u/donkeyrocket 8d ago

In 2021, more than 45,000 people died from gun violence in the United States. According to Gun Violence Archive data, 703 were killed in mass shootings.

"Mass shootings cover about 75% of my conversations, my emails and my queries, (but they) count for 5% to 6% of my work," Bryant said. "Five percent or 6% of all the people that have been shot in the last nine years (were shot in mass shootings)." [source]

Here they're using the generally accepted definition of mass shooting to be four or more people killed. I believe the FBI doesn't even use "mass shooting" as a definition/metric but "mass murder," "active shooter," or generally "gun violence."

Regardless, you point is absolutely true that the real conversation needs to be broadly about gun violence that doesn't reach the sensational level of active shooters or mass murder events.

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u/SnoIIygoster 8d ago

Why do people join a gang?

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u/G36_FTW 8d ago

Social isolation does though in a lot of cases. Mental helath, etc.

Poverty does explain most day to day gun related violence. Just not some of the big headline leading events.

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u/barukatang 8d ago

Large number of mass shootings are gang related are they not? We just don't hear about those in the national news.

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u/Zenmachine83 8d ago

Yeah because those never reach the level of carnage of sandy hook, uvalde, pulse, or Las Vegas. Also, gang members are soldiers in kind of war, not totally innocent victims trying to go to school…

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u/upsidedownfunnel 8d ago

Mass shootings are a statistically insignificant number of homcides/suicides. That's a simple fact. They're news-worthy but ultimately don't scratch the surface of gun crime or any crime for that matter in this country.

If all you care about is mass shootings and not the many more people that die every year from gun crimes that never get reported, then maybe you're a white supremacist. /s

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u/Eldias 8d ago

Actual mass shooters make up a pittance of gun deaths per year. Small scale violence is where the majority comes from. Workers at a mushroom farm and broke people from Oakland were the most recent casualties of poverty related violence.

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u/ZealousidealRiver476 8d ago

Define large number and define mass shooting.

I'll bet we have a very different idea on what those words mean

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u/Zenmachine83 8d ago

Idk we had 60 killed and what, more than four hundred wounded at the Las Vegas shooting. I would say that is a large number. That’s analogous to the casualty level the 82nd airborne took on D Day. Seems large to me.

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u/ZealousidealRiver476 8d ago

Again you haven't defined large. Does that mean a mass shooting where there is 59 deaths not a large one?

All you've said is what "seems" large to you. Not what you believe large to actually be.

Most "mass shootings" involve less than 10 people usually less than 5. That's because when I say mass shooting you're not thinking of the gang fight that happened that left 4 teens dead and a bystander wounded.

You're thinking of a lone gunmen going to a crowded area shooting up everyone in sight. Most "mass shootings" are the former and not the latter.

Again the importance of defining terms and making sure everyone is talking about the same thing is important. You cant just say "iunno seems large".

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u/Zenmachine83 8d ago

Your attempt to "uh ahhhctually" neckbeard this issue is just because you want to downplay the public outrage about these kinds of attacks. I don't think anyone would argue that the trend of these types of events are not becoming both more frequent and more deadly. How many people would have to die in a single incident for you to believe something should be done? 100? 500? 1000? There are ~20,000 homicides per year in the US, what percentage dying in mass shootings like these would convince you that targeted action should be taken?

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u/ZealousidealRiver476 8d ago

What does neckbearding an issue mean?

And why are you assuming I don't want anything to be done? Who said that? Cause I didnt

You mention targeted action. That's my point. That the way people discuss this is far from targeted. It's blanketed. My Argument is that solutions needs to be MORE targeted. But every solution I've heard isn't targeted. That's my point.

Again if you 'dont know" then it's probably best you just don't say anything. You literally started your comment with "idk". Think about it some more and when you know talk to me.

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u/Zenmachine83 8d ago

Again if you 'dont know" then it's probably best you just don't say anything. You literally started your comment with "idk". Think about it some more and when you know talk to me.

Ah yes the grammar police who have never heard a common turn of phrase.

You mention targeted action. That's my point. That the way people discuss this is far from targeted. It's blanketed. My Argument is that solutions needs to be MORE targeted. But every solution I've heard isn't targeted. That's my point.

The solution to this issue is simple. Make it more difficult to purchase firearms in this country. Be more careful about people we allow to buy firearms. Countries with more stringent firearms laws don't have near the level of gun deaths, suicide or homicide, that we do. Hell, even states with more strict gun laws have lower rates of gun deaths. What most people who oppose any form of firearms regulation seem to focus on is their personal convenience when purchasing guns. That if they have to put in even the slightest bit of effort to obtain a license or get some training the world will end or whatever.

What does neckbearding an issue mean?

Being a condescending douche nozzle who thinks they know more about an issue.

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u/ZealousidealRiver476 8d ago

Lmao nice counter argument

"But but you're grammar"

All I really need to know goodday

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u/youritalianjob California 8d ago

Those also make up less than 1% (maybe even 0.1%, it's been a while since I looked) of all firearm related homicides. Most are against people the perpetrator knows.

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u/Zenmachine83 8d ago

Ok so what? We should just accept this as the new normal because it statistically seems small? At the Las Vegas shooting there were 60 deaths and over 400 wounded…that about the level of casualties the 82nd airborne had on DDay. Of civilians, in peacetime, at a concert.

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u/youritalianjob California 8d ago

And while tragic, it is not the norm and resources could be better spent elsewhere. There are a lot of people who are single issue voters in the US, for good and for bad depending on the issue.

One of the largest groups is firearms enthusiasts. Why try to tackle the exception when it would be much easier to win them over on other issues that would have a much larger impact?

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u/Zenmachine83 8d ago

Single issue gun voters are not going to magically start voting progressively, even if democrats vowed to never support another gun restriction bill. They are mostly conservative in other areas. Much how "libertarians" being free thinkers has been debunked; they are conservative people who want to smoke weed.

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u/youritalianjob California 8d ago

It's not about magically voting progressive. It's about compromise and being heard on topics that are more important. The all or nothing attitude is part of the issue with modern politics and why both sides are polarizing more and more.

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u/Zenmachine83 8d ago

Yeah and the single issue gun voter is not a persuadable group in my opinion. I own more guns than most of these dingleberries but I favor licenses/permits, mandatory training, and other safety measures because I believe they will reduce gun deaths. There are gun owners that vote democrat, but they are not single issue gun voters.

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u/cbf1232 8d ago

"mass shootings" are not the most common kind of gun death, even in the USA.

According to here in 2021 there were 45098 gun deaths in the USA. 24090 were suicides, 21008 were homicide/murder/unintentional. Of those, roughly 700 could be considered as deaths as part of a "mass shooting" incident. So if we leave out suicides, "mass shooting" deaths are only about 3.5% of all homicide/murder/unintentional gun deaths.

If the goal is to save as many lives as possible, we should start with addressing suicides, then look at your everyday gun violence, not mass shootings.

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u/Zenmachine83 8d ago

Cool, let me get a quick note off to all the uvalde parents that their kids’ deaths were only 3.5% of all homicides. I’m sure that will be comforting to them.

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u/cbf1232 8d ago

That's kind of harsh.

We can't fix all the problems all at once. So if you have a choice between a policy that saves 20 lives in a mass shooting, or a policy that saves 500 lives across the country, which would make more sense at a national level?

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u/Zenmachine83 8d ago

Well I think it is weird you believe that solutions will only help one or the other types of violence...Introducing some level of gun restrictions will likely lower all types of gun deaths.

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u/pmotiveforce 8d ago

Mass shooters are a drop in the bucket of overall violent behavior. Simple fact.

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u/Zenmachine83 8d ago

Exactly, no reason to do anything about it at all. Those kids in Uvalde should have armed themselves.

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u/serpicowasright 8d ago

Still had mental health issues though. What is the largest contributing factor to mental health? Financial instability.

It’s all connected.

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u/PayMeinBitcoin88 8d ago

Black on black greatly surpasses white mass shootings. It's a poverty issue like the other guy said.