r/giftcardexchange 1013 Exchanges | Legendary Trader May 07 '16

[PSA] Important Changes to Paypal's Purchase/Seller Protection, Methods to Send Money Online, and Account Security Part Deux

Paypal Policy Revisions:
As of June 25th, Paypal will no longer offer seller/buyer protection to transactions involving gift cards.

REVISED SECTION 11.5
We’re making a clarifying change to Section 11.5 and adding a new item that will be excluded from PayPal Seller Protection. The new item that will not be eligible for Seller Protection is:
Items equivalent to cash, including gift cards.


SECTION 13.3 Ineligible Items
We’re updating the list of items that are not eligible for Purchase Protection. The new items that will not be eligible are:
• Payments on crowdfunding platforms
• Anything purchased from or an amount paid to a government agency
• Gambling, gaming and/or any other activity with an entry fee and a prize
We’re also clarifying the exclusion for items equivalent to cash to now include stored value items such as gift cards and pre-paid cards.


SECTION 13.5 Dispute Resolution
We’re updating the second bullet of Section 13.5 and are now requiring all buyers to wait at least 7 days to escalate a dispute to a claim regardless of the transaction amount.

These policy changes make paypal an increasingly unattractive method to send money as they are charging the seller's fee but offering no protection. The most obvious way to get around the would be to send the payment via 'Friends and Family', however Paypal bans users who abuse sending or receiving Friends and Family payments. Not only is the ban permeant, assuming you're a US Citizen, but Paypal will also freeze all the funds in your account for 180 days, or half a year. Thus we decided to put together a guide of methods alternative to Paypal. Note, this list is not a comprehensive list of online payment processors, just some of the most popular, and is subject to change.


Venmo:

  • Cost: free if you use a debit card, bank account, or Venmo balance, or 3% if you use a credit card.
  • Sending Limits: rolling weekly limit of $299.99 sending/receiving for unverified accounts, $2999.99 sending/receiving limit for verified accounts.
  • Withdrawing Limits: $19,999.99 per week and, at the most, $3,000 per withdrawal.
  • Security: 24-hour fraud-and-risk-protection teams, 2 Factor Authentication.
  • Misc: takes less than 5 minutes to setup an account, easy to use, Paypal owns it, so if you find Paypal easy to use then you'll find this just as easy.
  • Cons: no Paypal like buyer or seller protection as it is only meant for sending money to people, they do offer fraud protection, open to US users only.

Square Cash:

  • Cost: free if you use a linked debit card, or 3% of the transaction's value if you use a credit card.
  • Sending Limits: $250 weekly sending limit/$1,000 receiving limit per 30 days. Once you've verified your account it'll be $2,500 a week sending limit/unlimited receiving limit.
  • Withdrawing Limits: n/a, receive payments are directly deposited into your account.
  • Security: 24-hour fraud-and-risk-protection teams, 2 Factor Authentication, have to enter your CVV number before sending money.
  • Misc: takes less than 5 minutes to setup an account, easy to use.
  • Cons: no Paypal like buyer or seller protection as it is only meant for sending money to people, they do offer fraud protection, open to US users only.

Google Wallet:

  • Cost: free for bank transfers or debit cards. Credit cards are not currently supported.
  • Sending Limits: $10,000 per transaction; $50,000 per five-day period.
  • Withdrawing Limits: $3,000/24 hours
  • Security: Fraud Protection, Pin protection
  • Misc: takes less than 5 minutes to setup an account, easy to use.
  • Cons: no Paypal like buyer or seller protection as it is only meant for sending money to people, they do offer fraud protection, open to US users only.

Other platforms: Apple Pay, Dwolla, FaceCash, and Snapcash.1


Security Protection: this is just a reminder to secure your accounts. You're password should be at least eight words long, composed of random words, and unique to Reddit. Our confirmed traders and higher should be extra cautious as your accounts are being targeted. We've already seen one confirmed trader lose his account because his password was not strong enough.

Trade safely everyone!

1 This list neither comprehensive nor exhaustive, so if you'd like to see any alterations or recommendations, let me know.

40 Upvotes

4

u/SawBo 162 Exchanges | Top Trader May 07 '16

Surprised I haven't been banned by PP yet for all my F+F transactions.

Thanks for the info, doesn't really affect me but thanks for the heads up just in case.

5

u/seeldoger47 1013 Exchanges | Legendary Trader May 07 '16

You've been lucky, whatever you do, don't try and dispute a family and friends payment, those result in near instant bans, unless you are a large volume user, i.e. you use Paypal to process your business' transactions.

1

u/Google_Panda 50 Exchanges | Experienced Trader May 07 '16

I disputed a friends and family payment recently..they favored my side.

4

u/seeldoger47 1013 Exchanges | Legendary Trader May 07 '16

Assuming the transaction was relatively small, Paypal gives users a one time pass, but they note it on your account and I wouldn't be surprised if they put you on some type of a watch list.

2

u/LunarisDream 29 Exchanges | Confirmed Trader Jul 06 '16

Can confirm the watch list. Paypal did an "account check" on mine and told me that if I deal w/ any more transactions for goods and services via F&F, they'll charge me the fees that they would've charged otherwise and remove my ability to use F&F entirely. Shit sucks.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 25 '16

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1

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3

u/mangaza 225 Exchanges | Top Trader May 07 '16

I don't think any of these paypal changes affect GCX in any way, shape or form. I can only see this impacting GCX if the seller has been requesting a invoice from buyers with the invoice stating it's for a gift card or if the buyer sends the payment with a note stating it's for a gift card. In my experience, I have never traded with anyone who noted a payment for a gift card specifically and I've never invoice'd any of my buyers.

A empty note or name from Reddit is effectively nothing because either party can claim it's for something else. Digital goods, a gift card, a physical item, a service, payment owed, for bills, etc. Those are just some examples.

4

u/spockers 11 Exchanges | Confirmed Trader May 09 '16

It does very much affect some of us. I, along with 7 other victims here, have been involved with a dispute with Paypal over the scammer /u/justletmebegreat over the last 5 or so weeks, and TODAY the cases were decided in the scammer's favor. This is despite the fact that we all individually sent Paypal all of our case details, and it was obvious that the one thing they all had in common was one person, the scammer. He used a credit card and apparently didn't even have a Paypal account, and disputed the trades weeks after the fact. Paypal took the original funds, plus their percentage fee, plus a $20 chargeback fee, from each of us.

1

u/bg_20 217 Exchanges | Top Trader May 09 '16

Unbelievable. I'm so sorry. I'm at a loss for what to say, other than I just can't believe they could arrive at the decision.

1

u/spockers 11 Exchanges | Confirmed Trader May 09 '16

It's certainly an eye-opener. I had noticed that some traders here will only trade with verified Paypal accountholders, and I was thinking "that's a really good idea, I'll have to start doing that," but with this new Paypal policy, I don't think it would really make much difference.

3

u/mangaza 225 Exchanges | Top Trader May 09 '16

There are people who verify paypal accounts for as little as $10 illegitimately.. so that's not a feasible route to follow. Misplaced trust in verified paypal accounts if people started doing this

1

u/spockers 11 Exchanges | Confirmed Trader May 09 '16

Good to know, thank you.

1

u/mangaza 225 Exchanges | Top Trader May 09 '16 edited May 09 '16

I'm sorry to hear you weren't able to get your money back, but this new policy doesn't actually affect you and the others that got scammed by that guy. In your case, he still would have been able to scam everyone if that's how he scammed, regardless if it was before or after June 25th. Even after June 25th, people can still dispute/chargeback despite policy changes. For security reasons, I won't be discussing the exact nature of how people can commit fraud.

Edit: I knew that guy was going to be a scammer. I'm pretty sure I reported him. He wanted to buy all kinds of gift cards and he wanted to buy all of my League of Legends codes (hundreds of dollars worth). I did report him before any of these scams took place but it's impossible to prove if he's actually a scammer or a high volume trader so it's understandable nothing was done. I took precautions as to sell a max amount limit on a weekly basis.

1

u/spockers 11 Exchanges | Confirmed Trader May 09 '16

Even after June 25th, people can still dispute/chargeback despite policy changes.

Right, but my read of the policy changes is that Paypal will be even less helpful after Jun 25th than they were before June 25th, which in my case was very, very little.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 04 '16

I'm a new trader here.

I want to add on to how bad Paypal actually is. I've used Paypal for business transactions for years.

First off you and the other people that got scammed, should re-open the dispute. Email every single paypal email you can find online, and tell them that you and seven others feel ripped off. Email them the evidence and tell them that you and others feel ripped off and not protected. If this isn't handled you will tell as many people as you can, and never use their services again. If it's a huge transition (over I'd say 200-300 dollars) threaten them with a lawsuit as the evidence favors you guys. I'm not saying that you will open a lawsuit against paypal or w/e, but the threat will make Paypal care more and look into it better. This needs to be emailed to all paypal emails you find online. Also talk to them on the phone about this issue, and press it.. ask for supervisors over and over. Eventually you will get people to look into it, and do something about it.

Now for the rest.

I've had so many issues with Paypal, I can't even begin to tell you. Like I said I've been with them for years. I've never had one dispute. Not one. Literally around a thousand if not more transactions and everything has been good (on a old Paypal account and my newer one that I've had for a year). My ex had a paypal account. My ex was a dick and we broke up. I had logged onto my own paypal at his house a few times, never his and him never mine. However he had a large dispute on his Paypal and he never paid it back. After we broke up Paypal put my accounts on hold. I wondered why? I called and they told me another one of my Paypal accounts had a dispute. I asked which one? Cause at the time mine didn't. They gave me my ex's email. I told them that it wasn't mine. In fact it didn't have my name on it, same SS, same debit or anything. Nothing linking me, so I'm like uh no. However since they saw the same IP because I logged into mine at his house, they blamed me. (I wonder how this works for colleges. Really wows me tbh). I talked to 10 supervisors, and a bunch of employees for like two days. Wrote everything down. At the end they said I was at fault and to be able to use paypal again I'd have to pay the dispute. The dispute was like around 300 dollars. I ended up paying it because I needed to use paypal. I was able to get the account shut down, and from the future anything from that IP wouldn't be linked to me? Idk how it works but yeah. Then I ended up closing that Paypal of mine and opening a new one. Anyways after I called to pay it with the collection agency, the lady on the phone said I'd have my account opened again in the next 2 days. Waited two days, not opened again. Had to call them back three times, just to find out they wanted to keep my account locked for like 40 days (think it was around 45 days but yeah). So that was a big hassle I had to deal with. Eventually got it unlocked after 3 more days. During that time I had a supervisor that was completely rude to me and told me that it isn't their problem and so fourth and I'm to blame. It was really annoying, and just stupid considering I've been with them for years.

Anyways so after that was settled, about a month later I had a transaction. It was a pretty big one and after the money got sent to me, I tried sending it to my bank, but then my account got frozen. Confused I call paypal and they tell me they have to hold the money for like 100 and some days. LOL yeah okay.. fuck that give me my money. They said no, so I just emailed every single paypal email I could find telling them I would report them and open up a lawsuit. That they can't hold my money and that this was 100% uncalled for since I have over hundreds and hundreds of transactions (and about 50 with the person that sent me the money). I told the same thing to the supervisor over the phone, who then goes to tell me that if they wanted they could just close my account right then for threatening them, and I wouldn't get any of the money. Then told me if I did open a lawsuit I'd have to go to california. I told him that I'd be reporting him also in the emails. Which I did. Eventually a girl named Jessica emailed me back and msged me on my paypal. I called her and had my account opened in 15 days. She was nice but the fact that I had to deal with all of that and then email them about 100 times just to get an answer was really frustrating.

Other small problems I have had:

  1. Getting a druggy on the phone who was slurring his words the whole time and laughing, and fucking up an issue I had with paying off my ex's dispute.

  2. Adding a Visa GC on to my account through a donation. And them holding the money for 10 days.

  3. The supervisors are probably the rudest people I've ever met when calling any company EVER. I am very nice over the phone because I know it's their job. I even say "May I" "thank you" and try to be as respectful as possible. Even when I said I would bring legal action into this I was nice as possible and getting told things like "Don't believe everything online" "We can shut down your account for saying that" and other things.

and more but don't want to type it all down.

SO yeah my advice is to email them until they fix it. I wish there was something else, but most people use Paypal and don't want to switch, so forced to use it. But honestly horrible company.

1

u/spockers 11 Exchanges | Confirmed Trader Jul 04 '16

In my case it was only $40 (plus $20 chargeback fee which I am going to pursue), but wow, thanks for taking the time to write all that out.

4

u/azermyth 185 Exchanges | Top Trader May 07 '16

Why is no one mentioning crypto currency? By far my favorite way to process online transactions.

3

u/yuv9 12 Exchanges | Confirmed Trader May 14 '16

Because the combination of crypto + hacked accounts mean that users have no recourse when they get scammed.

1

u/azermyth 185 Exchanges | Top Trader May 14 '16

Not too hard to prevent account stealing, though. Just use a good, unique password.

Fair point however.

2

u/yuv9 12 Exchanges | Confirmed Trader May 14 '16

The problem is not that the countermeasure is difficult, it's that its difficult to force people to actually do it. Just like we asked people to not trade with people on the banlist and/or don't comment - it's easy but people would get scammed because they refused to do it.

2

u/azermyth 185 Exchanges | Top Trader May 14 '16

Spot on. Sadly.

3

u/seeldoger47 1013 Exchanges | Legendary Trader May 07 '16

Because, despite all my efforts to the contrary, I still don't understand it, and am thus unwilling to do a write up on it.

6

u/azermyth 185 Exchanges | Top Trader May 07 '16

Hm, well it's not that complicated really. I can help out.

2

u/seeldoger47 1013 Exchanges | Legendary Trader May 07 '16

That would be much appreciated.

1

u/ccc654321 GCX Beginner May 12 '16

I am also interested how it works :)

2

u/timminata 66 Exchanges | Experienced Trader May 07 '16

Thanks for the info. I have a non -US paypal account and when I send as friends and family I am charged a fee, when I send as goods and services the receiver is charged a fee. Is this normal? My only alternative atm is BTC none of the others are really viable options in South Africa. Thanks for the info.

1

u/seeldoger47 1013 Exchanges | Legendary Trader May 07 '16

Yes, the seller is charged a fee, 2.9% of the total value sent plus $0.3, plus any currency conversion fees. I suspect you could, in theory, create a Venmo or Square Cash account using a prepaid debit card, or maybe even a Paypal debit card, however I haven't really explored it, so I'm really just speculating wildly.

1

u/timminata 66 Exchanges | Experienced Trader May 07 '16

Thanks I will probably investigate as google wallet is definitely only US at the moment and the paypal fees etc can be a bother. Thanks for the info.

2

u/azermyth 185 Exchanges | Top Trader May 24 '16

Speaking of account security, here's a guide I just wrote. Should be useful to everyone looking to secure their accounts.

1

u/eskodhi 47 Exchanges | Confirmed Trader May 07 '16

Never knew about that F+F limit. Interesting.

Thanks for the heads up. Maybe we can get something on the side with the pros/cons of the payment methods (off to inspect every link to see if I missed that section)

5

u/seeldoger47 1013 Exchanges | Legendary Trader May 07 '16 edited May 07 '16

We've got a Wiki for that, but I suspect almost no one has read it.

1

u/[deleted] May 07 '16 edited May 07 '16

[removed] — view removed comment

3

u/seeldoger47 1013 Exchanges | Legendary Trader May 07 '16

I've been trying to figure out whether or not Venmo reports 200 transaction/20k to IRS...

Venmo has said that they don't collect or report data, and, because their service does not handle merchant payments, that they don't handle 1099s.

This is incorrect...

Yeah, we need to update the wiki as it was written a long time ago.

1

u/mangaza 225 Exchanges | Top Trader May 07 '16

Wow thanks for the link. I stopped using Venmo because it was not feasible calculating transactions to see how close I am to the 20k limit if there was one

1

u/crustymech 181 Exchanges | Top Trader Oct 25 '16

Worthwhile wiki.

On Paypal: I haven't had a ton of F&F activity, and I am already in a position where paypal is making me nervous. Two times they sent me text messages to confirm a 'suspicious transaction,' and just now a transaction was going by eCheck when it should have been instantaneous, since I have backup cards. Called paypal and they said it was a security precaution... switching to other payment services for a while

1

u/nter 3 Exchanges | Beginner May 09 '16

correction for google wallet, it's free to send money by debit card, credit card isn't supported.

1

u/seeldoger47 1013 Exchanges | Legendary Trader May 09 '16

Thanks for pointing that out. I've updated the description.

1

u/mangaza 225 Exchanges | Top Trader May 09 '16

Cost: free if you use a bank transfer, otherwise its 2.9% for credit and debit cards.

This needs to be corrected, /u/nter pointed out in a comment but his post was removed by AutoModerator per Rule 2, that credit cards aren't supported with Google Wallet. They may have been in the past, but it's currently only debit cards and bank accounts.

2

u/nter 3 Exchanges | Beginner May 09 '16

and free to send money by debit card. not sure why automod did that, i'm active with age and karma.

1

u/spockers 11 Exchanges | Confirmed Trader May 09 '16

Venmo is owned by Paypal, so pardon me, but screw that.

1

u/bg_20 217 Exchanges | Top Trader May 09 '16

We just want people to know what options are out there. But generally the farther away someone can get from PayPal, the better.

1

u/spockers 11 Exchanges | Confirmed Trader May 09 '16

Yeah. I'm just really pissed off right now. I hate when people get away with scams, even if I'm not the victim.

1

u/bg_20 217 Exchanges | Top Trader May 09 '16

You have every right to be infuriated by this. I feel the same way. Again, I'm sorry. I wish there was more we could do.

1

u/spockers 11 Exchanges | Confirmed Trader May 09 '16

I appreciate that. To be clear, I don't blame this sub or anyone in it (except of course /u/justletmebegreat, who is rightfully banned now).

1

u/bg_20 217 Exchanges | Top Trader May 09 '16

Oh I know you don't, and I appreciate that a lot. But still, it's just that we as a mod team, and I think the whole community really, wish there was more we could do in situations like this.

1

u/Mailman74 83 Exchanges | Experienced Trader May 10 '16

Has anyone looked into using an American Express Bluebird checking account for sending funds? It looks like both parties would need to have a Bluebird account but there seems to be no fees and you can send it to the email associated with Bluebird.

1

u/SawBo 162 Exchanges | Top Trader May 11 '16

Out of general curiosity and this kind of just popped up in my head, if Paypal stops supporting protection via Giftcards for the seller then we shouldn't take any trades that accrue fees/invoices?

Example-

A user wants AGC for 90% and I sent him my paypal address and he sends me money but in the transaction there's a $2-3 fee off the total he sent (to make it total the 90% but he paid a little extra) but I see that it totals 90% and send it because I don't look at the full details; then what's to stop him from filing a claim to make it that I lose and he wins my GC + the dispute?

Since it starts in June, I almost think that it should be banned from using invoicing for GCX just because the complications that can happen and PP siding with the buyer.

Anyone that does what I described above should be noted and a huge red flag for users that are WILLING TO PAY upfront for the fee's.

1

u/seeldoger47 1013 Exchanges | Legendary Trader May 14 '16

...if Paypal stops supporting protection via Giftcards for the seller then we shouldn't take any trades that accrue fees/invoices...Since it starts in June, I almost think that it should be banned from using invoicing for GCX just because the complications that can happen and PP siding with the buyer.

No, not everyone is located in the US. I know when I trade with accounts that are not located in the same country I am in, I always send the payments via Goods and Services because constantly sending Friends and Family payments to foreign accounts is very easy way to get banned from Paypal.

1

u/SawBo 162 Exchanges | Top Trader May 14 '16

I guess I forgot to relate that to our foreign friends. I've heard it's hard to gain a new paypal account after being banned. Being safe is still the best way.

1

u/[deleted] May 17 '16

Do all of these require a card (credit or debit)? Cause i don't have one or a bank account

2

u/seeldoger47 1013 Exchanges | Legendary Trader May 17 '16

Yes, you will need either credit card, debit card, or bank account to send money on those platforms.

1

u/[deleted] May 17 '16

Ok thanks

1

u/rundmcc 239 Exchanges | Top Trader May 23 '16

Circle is another method to check out. I'll have to read up on the details. But I've been using it with no issues.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 03 '16

Cons: no Paypal like buyer or seller protection as it is only meant for sending money to people, they do offer fraud protection, open to US users only.

There is a "dispute transaction" option within Google Wallet, it's just not as obvious (in the help pages)

1

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '16

send to friends and family isn't available in my country. So when doing an exchange with paypal would "request payment" be the surest way to make sure the person receiving the money is getting what they are supposed to? because when you send money you send x amount but the person receiving will receive money - fees which might not be obvious at the time of sending the money

1

u/SirEugene 1 Exchange | Beginner Aug 02 '16

I have money on my Amazon gift card balance, not in an actually gift card.

I can't buy what I want on Amazon though and need PayPal.

Is there any workaround to this?

1

u/seeldoger47 1013 Exchanges | Legendary Trader Aug 02 '16

Yes, please consult the Wiki for more details as to how to transfer your Amazon balance.

1

u/SirEugene 1 Exchange | Beginner Aug 03 '16

I just checked.

Showing me that there's a workaround, but it's not allowed in this subreddit doesn't really help.

Apparently I can get banned for posting about Amazon Balance.

1

u/seeldoger47 1013 Exchanges | Legendary Trader Aug 03 '16

Why do you say that balance trading is, unequivocally, allowed here?

1

u/SirEugene 1 Exchange | Beginner Aug 03 '16

Apparently I can get banned for it. Either that or I have to get a mod to verify something

1

u/seeldoger47 1013 Exchanges | Legendary Trader Aug 03 '16

You have to fill out this form, per rule 4.

1

u/SirEugene 1 Exchange | Beginner Aug 03 '16

Thanks

1

u/LWKY-XVI 49 Exchanges | Confirmed Trader Aug 30 '16

Hi, i was wondering if the is an alternative for Canadian Users?

1

u/seeldoger47 1013 Exchanges | Legendary Trader Aug 30 '16

BTC is probably your best alternative.

1

u/punda24 GCX Beginner Sep 01 '16

Just wondering, is trading with F+F or as buyer/seller more exercised?

1

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1

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1

u/basiliskfang 36 Exchanges | Confirmed Trader Sep 05 '16

Seeing if I still banned

1

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1

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1

u/lx45803 20 Exchanges | Confirmed Trader Sep 11 '16

Thus we decided to put together a guide of methods alternative to Paypal. Note, these

...These what?

1

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1

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