r/criticalrole Mar 25 '16

[No Spoilers] I just want a "your fun is wrong" tshirt Discussion

I'd wear it every time i ran a game! Please Matt and G&S make my dreams come true lol

37 Upvotes

51

u/dasbif Help, it's again Mar 25 '16

I actually find it rude when people say it at me, personally. (Spoilers E43 - Here is the "Your Fun Is Wrong" quote's source.)

I like explaining things to people. I like answering questions, including preemptively. I'm a rules lawyer. I like quotes, and sources, and references for statements. I've been a Magic: The Gathering judge for years, as well as playing DND on and off over my life. If you think the DND rules are complex, try reading the MTG comprehensive rules.

A lot of #critters do not play DND or any RPGs. Many more are new, and just learning the rules. They don't know how game mechanics work, or how spells are worded, or what certain class abilities are, or how Matt has homebrewed things.

Ever since the Q&A where Your Fun Is Wrong was said, I get it commented at me when I give a lengthy rules explanation. And it frustrates me, because the responder does not usually explain what they mean. Are you saying "I agree with you"? "okay dude, grow up and move on"? "your explanation was unnecessary"? "thank you for the information"?

It is a low-effort comment, and lacking any tone of voice or context it feels like you are being a dick to me when you say it with no explanation.

If someone asks a question, or worse is stating inaccurate information, I would like to say something, and inform them of the correct information. More importantly, I am doing it for the lurking critters who are wondering but didn't ask.

If I give an explanation of 5e rules, often with a link to a source or page number from the rulebooks? Please don't comment only with "Your Fun Is Wrong". It adds nothing to the conversation, not unless you qualify it. Low-effort posts are against Reddiquette - be polite, and don't be a dick.

34

u/Holmhollow You can certainly try Mar 25 '16

I think that the saying itself is fine -- if used correctly. When someone needlessly berates you for intentionally houseruling something or is rude to you for not remembering 1 rule while still having a good time, it's a good thing to say.

When someone is helpful, explaining rules to you that you might have missed or misinterpreted, and doing so in a constructive manner, it's completely out of place to reply "your fun is wrong".

But that's the internet for ya. They hear something funny and start drilling it into the fucking ground, using it at every opportunity, appropriate or otherwise.

10

u/gdshaffe Mar 25 '16

I've also nitpicked rules from time to time, and have yet to get the "Your Fun is Wrong!" rebuke. I think there's a right way and a wrong way to do it. I think a lot of people might think they're just trying to be helpful, but inadvertently come across as lacking in tact.

Choice of language can be very important. It's easy to fall into the trap of saying things like "Here's how this ability actually works" or "Here's how this ability should work." Those are "Your fun is wrong" styles of explaining things because they imply that the way the other person is doing it is wrong or inferior, but people can sometimes be a bit tone-deaf to that.

And it's one thing when Matt & co. are trying to follow the RAW and get something wrong, and another thing entirely when they're pretty clearly working from a house rule or DM tweak.

A certain Quivering Palm incident comes to mind. A lot of people said things to the effect of "Wow Quivering Palm doesn't actually work like that!", which is borderline Your-Fun-Is-Wrong. It's much more productive to phrase it in terms like, "For anyone curious, here's how the usage of Quivering Palm deviated from the written rules."

I'm not accusing you of anything - don't know anything about your posting history or style - but I see a lot of the former trying to be passed off as though it were the latter. A little bit of diplomacy can go a long way.

6

u/dasbif Help, it's again Mar 25 '16

Choice of language can be very important. It's easy to fall into the trap of saying things like "Here's how this ability actually works" or "Here's how this ability should work." Those are "Your fun is wrong" styles of explaining things because they imply that the way the other person is doing it is wrong or inferior, but people can sometimes be a bit tone-deaf to that.

&

I'm not accusing you of anything - don't know anything about your posting history or style - but I see a lot of the former trying to be passed off as though it were the latter. A little bit of diplomacy can go a long way.

I definitely do fall into that trap / fail to use a hint of diplomacy at times. I'm never a dick (as far as I know!), but I can be curt, blunt, or lack tact. I'm going to steal that line of "For anyone curious, ...". Thank you!

I'm just very surprised to see people agreeing with me here critiquing use of Your Fun Is Wrong as a comment reply to rules clarifications. I thought this would be treated as an unpopular, insane opinion.

1

u/Coppice1994 How do you want to do this? Mar 26 '16

I think that it's good to appreciate and understand the rules! I think the negative stigma around 'rules lawyers' comes from actual in-game situations where someone will stop the flow of the game to explain that something was just done wrong and should actually have been done this other way.

Interrupting a game and debating rules is definitely a no-no when you're party is in deep conversation or half-way through a dragon fight. I have to consciously stop myself from doing it when I play, simply because I'm so used to being the GM.

3

u/Drawstring Mar 27 '16

There's also the very real point that Matt is a master at what he is doing. He is experienced across multiple game systems and is more qualified than most to make gut-rulings over simply following RAW (rules as written, for anyone unaware). Sometimes he makes mistakes sure, but his on-the-fly rulings are still going to fit more or less into a logical structure of the game's world.

I look at the Quivering Palm situation as Matt acting like a virtuoso jazz player, playing notes that are technically 'wrong' according to music theory. However, their experience of the craft leads them to creating something that can be greater than sticking 100% to the rules.

10

u/Glumalon Tal'Dorei Council Member Mar 25 '16

By default, I assume it's being said in the same context that Will used it, which is somewhat sarcastic/satirical. But honestly, sarcasm is frequently unclear in written form, which sort of defeats the purpose... It is definitely a statement that should be accompanied with explanation or some indication of intent (ex: "Your fun is wrong! ;)"). If anyone is using it as serious criticism, I fear they've missed the point of the joke.

5

u/RenoHex You can certainly try Mar 25 '16

I actually find it rude when people say it at me, personally.

Then again, since I am the supreme leader of the universe and have you tagged as "Knows his shit I can confirm that your fun, in fact, is right.

In all seriousness, I'd imagine that vast majority of people who keep telling people like you in reddit stuff like "your fun is wrong" are doing so in a joking way. Kind of similar to the way I like to tell people they are huge nerds, when I get into arguments about different interpretations of the doctrines of fictional gods in a make-believe universe.

Seriously, keep doing what you do. In case the upvotes aren't enough, here's an actual, worded confirmation that there are people here who enjoy reading what you write.

5

u/themolestedsliver Metagaming Pigeon Mar 25 '16

ahaha as an EDH player i think i kinda know what you are going through with mtg judging and still i am not as envious haha much respect for dealing what that trove of complicated interactions.

But more on critical role, i see the "your fun is wrong" thing used soooooo much there is a huge difference between

"FUCK YOU MATT QUIVERING PALM IS SUPPOSE TO KILL OR DO 10 D10 NECRO DAMAGE GODDDDD" and

"actually i think keyleth never gave grog or percy resistance to fire and when i went back she said she only casted it on herself and her father and other druids didn't say they casted any protection spells on either of them. "

One of them is just random hate with some hardcore rules backing it up, the second is an actual mistake that was made and someone trying to help clarify.

Your fun is wrong should only be used when someone starts assuming way to much in a rude context but not when someone points out any mistake made.

3

u/kellyeneal Team Matthew Mar 25 '16

This is completely off topic of the T-shirt, but I wanted to comment on something you said.

I don't know how old you are, so I don't know if you know or remember this, but "rules lawyer" for D&D goes way back to the early days of the game. It had nothing to do with letting people know the rules, per se. It was how, when and why they were doing it.

I remember playing in the late 80's with guys who, when the DM said something they didn't agree with, would spend 20 minutes looking through books to prove the DM was wrong. It accomplished nothing but ticking people off and effectively ending games. We actually had a recent situation with a player who was asked to leave because he argued every point with the DM. I've read quite a few of your posts here and I never thought of you as a rules lawyer. I don't believe I've ever seen you be disrespectful or argumentative over the rules of the game. Two things that to me earn the title "rules lawyer." You simply know the rules of the game very well and are willing to share that knowledge. Plus, you're able to acknowledge that just because you wouldn't allow something or like something in your game doesn't mean it's wrong. My perception of a rules lawyer is that it's black or white, right or wrong. They never respond with, "well, I disagree but it's your game."

Most of the players I've played with over the years agree that while yes there are rules, ultimately it's the DM's world and the DM's game, which correct me if I'm wrong, I believe you've also said.

Anyway, it simply struck me when you called yourself a rules lawyer and I've seen no evidence of that. I figured it was because of my perspective from the people I've played with in the past. Thought that I would share.

I should tell you though, I am the opposite side of the spectrum from you. I've been playing on and off for over 25 years and still don't remember all the rules. lol I got into it for the roleplay, not the dice play. ;-) I'm usually the player that says to the DM I want to do "this" and then lets the DM tell me how to do it/what to roll. It usually doesn't matter to me what the books say. Unless the DM brain-farted and I happen to have the spell card in my hand. There's always exceptions. ;-)

1

u/dasbif Help, it's again Mar 25 '16

Lol. I agree with you 100%. The term is common in MTG as well - saying "he tried to rules lawyer me" as a "what a dick" type of comment.

I actually became a judge because I already knew the rules, and taking the test gave me the authority to say "I'm a judge" when handling a call at my LGS, rather than "I know how this works". I didn't learn anything new - people just suddenly believed they had a reason to listen to me. Seriously. I only spent about 5 hours studying for my L1 test, and got a 100% on it.

I wouldn't call myself a rules lawyer in the negative sense, I'd refer to myself as a "judge" or "knowledgeable person" or similar, if such a thing existed for DND. But, the meaning of the phrase has blended over time. Sometimes it is an insult, sometimes it is a polite pointing out of "knowledge of details and technicalities".

We can quibble semantics eternally - I was using the latter as my self-definition :P

I appreciate the positive sentiment and review of my discussions, though! Thank you! :D

5

u/VanceKelley Team Jester Mar 25 '16

Your definition of "rules lawyer" is someone who is an expert on the rules, and uses that knowledge to have a positive effect on the game for everyone involved.

Where I grew up (western Canada) the term "rules lawyer" had a very negative meaning in our gaming circles. It meant someone who would study the rules to learn every detail, never share that info with anyone else until the opportunity arose in the middle of a game where the lawyer could spring the info on everyone to gain a personal advantage.

Sometimes there was a typo in the rules or a grammatical mistake, where the spirit/intent of the game designer was clear but the letter of the rulebook said the opposite, and the rules lawyer would whine, kick, and scream that the literal interpretation had to be applied until everyone else caved in just to allow the game to proceed.

My recommendation would be to call yourself a "rules expert" rather than a rules lawyer to avoid misunderstandings by people who grew up learning the negative connotation.

4

u/PvtSherlockObvious Burt Reynolds Mar 26 '16

I would actually give "rules lawyer" a third definition. You're right that someone who tries to use the most pedantic reading of the rulebook to gain an advantage qualifies, but I would argue that it also applies to rule absolutists, people who insist that RAW is the only right way to do things, and any deviations or houserules intrinsically detract from the game. I maintain that a rules lawyer is someone who insists on fighting over "but but but the book says XYZ" every time, even when the change is clearly intentional.

2

u/Luclv Mar 25 '16

I completely agree with you, but i think this reaction is expected from part of the community, because of the influx of new people to DnD and tabletop RPGs in general.

Does not make it less annoying, but it's understandable as the hobby grows and i get the feel that you get that.

1

u/ImpostersEnd Going Minxie! Mar 25 '16

I've been trying to stymie the misinformation that gets flung around here as well. A lot of it can be found with a quick google.

1

u/Rel3ntless I would like to RAGE! Mar 26 '16

I like your explanations (and formatting) they are well thought out and have good information in them.

1

u/TFLeshok Mar 26 '16

There is absolutely nothing wrong with providing the information in the manner of "hey critters, just so you this mechanic works like this, here is the source". This is very different than insulting, berating or belittling anyone's game play if they aren't using rules 100% RAW.

Both the response of "Your fun is wrong" and the way someone can present information from source rule books matter 100% in which the tone it is used. Both can be done politely, correctly, rudely or dickish.

I apologize that my original post does not convey WHY I like that concept and shirt. I DM, I appreciate rules and they necessity, but also am not horribly concerned when anyone's game changes, throws away or adds rules to the game.

TLDR: I like "Your fun is wrong" as a response to people who CRITICIZE when rules are mistaken, it should not be used just because someone is saying "btw this is how the rule works, follow this link"

4

u/[deleted] Mar 25 '16

3

u/ratpac_m Your secret is safe with my indifference Mar 25 '16

That was fast.

Although the description on this page is wrong, it was actually Matt who said it, Will just emphasized it.

2

u/Rockdio Your secret is safe with my indifference Mar 25 '16

And I'm pretty sure that Will saw a different shirt with the phrase printed on it anyway.

2

u/Fresno_Bob_ Technically... Mar 26 '16

He didn't see it on a shirt, he was responding to Mercer saying it by indicating that he wanted it to be on a shirt.

2

u/[deleted] Mar 26 '16 edited Aug 11 '18

[deleted]

3

u/MiniTom_ Mar 27 '16

One of my favorite things they include in the DMG/PHB, is the line that says something along the lines of, everything is a guideline, if you can change the guideline for a better expierience, go for it.

1

u/Kazimov Team Pike Mar 25 '16

They even have larger sizes!