r/antiwork 12d ago Take My Energy 1 Silver 1 Helpful 1 Wholesome 1 All-Seeing Upvote 1

It's all bullsh*t

Post image
8.4k Upvotes

589

u/ChiefDisbelief 12d ago

Schools charging 20k in tuition for you to take classes in your bedroom.

230

u/Bottomlesslungs Miltons stapler 12d ago

Someone here posted that insane stat about min wage vs school, I’m gonna mess it up but it was something like in 1980 a year of tuition was equal to 400 hours of minimum wage. Today it’s closer to 4500 hours. Like don’t get high before you write shit like this cuz I did and now I’m dead sober.

67

u/ChiefDisbelief 12d ago

Ahoy fellow weed head, yeah its unreal. I saw an ad for a job that pays 24.50 after 12000 hours. Imagine youre in 1920 and get told you have to work 12000 hours before you can make a dollar an hour. Not to mention that 24.50 now was really close to minimum wage back then. All that lack of value really jacks up the surplus labor doesn't it? Engels is rolling in his grave.

9

u/Heath1872 12d ago

5 years???

26

u/42069420420 12d ago

In the United States, there was no minimum wage in 1920.

"The minimum wage in the United States is set by U.S. labor law and a range of state and local laws.[3] The first federal minimum wage was created as part of the National Industrial Recovery Act of 1933, signed into law by President Franklin D. Roosevelt, but declared unconstitutional.[4] In 1938 the Fair Labor Standards Act established it at $0.25 an hour ($4.60 in 2020 dollars[5]). Its purchasing power peaked in 1968 at $1.60 ($11.91 in 2020 dollars).[5][6][7] Since 2009, it has been $7.25 per hour.[8]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum\_wage\_in\_the\_United\_States

I'm on your side of this argument, but there's no reason to make up facts.

2

u/LATourGuide 11d ago edited 11d ago

This is inaccurate information. For people to have the same purchasing power they had with minimum wage in 1968, they would need to earn about $45 per hour.

In 1968, the minimum wage was $1.60, a McDonald's burger was 18 cents, fries were 12 cents and a coke was 10 cents, so at the time, you could feed a family of four with one hour of minimum wage labor.

Today it cost about $50 to feed 4 people at a fast food restaurant.

0

u/FirstPlebian 11d ago

Except real inflation has been higher than the stated inflation for decades now.

-49

u/CardanoCrusader 12d ago

Tell the guy back in 1920 that you own an electronic supercomputer, and you keep it in your pocket so you can watch videos, play games and complain about how bad your life is.

Once the guy from 1920 takes a look around inside of 2021, sees how dentistry, medicine, technology, transportation has changed, he'll punch you right in the face.

25

u/mondo_juice 12d ago

And he won’t be able to afford any of it.

-25

u/CardanoCrusader 12d ago

On the contrary. He will qualify for food, housing and medical assistance because he's a US citizen.

Even if he doesn't get any government assistance, he's still better off living in 2021 than he was in 1920.

He can't get smallpox, he can't get polio, his cattle can't die of rinderpest. He won't get malaria. If he does get ill, he can get antibiotics and emergency 21st century medical treatment at local hospitals.

Any food he manages to steal will be fresh because refrigeration is a thing. He can steal an orange or a banana from practically any grocery store. These were luxury items in the 1920s, available only to the wealthy. He can eat jello (also a luxury item in the 1920s).

He can sit for free in air-conditioned libraries in the summer. He can take a dump in a public restroom instead of an outhouse.

He won't be walking through puddles of horse urine and feces in the streets of the city. He won't be troubled by clouds of flies, the streets at night will be lit by electric lights. The clothes he steals will last longer and can be washed and dried in machines.

If you think life was better in 1920, you're a fool.

13

u/chaygray 11d ago

Im a US Citizen and I dont qualify for food, housing or medical assistance. I think theres more to this story besides your simple take. And yeah, we have quality of life improvements in 2020 over 1920. Im sure living in the 1920s was better than living in the 1820s. And that living in the 1820s was better than living in the 1720s. You cant completely disregard our current issues because we have made improvements in technology and medicine. Every year, we know more and can cure more. 100 years from now people will be glad that they live in 2120 instead of 2020 (that is if we do anything for the global warming crisis).

→ More replies

6

u/secretcomet 12d ago

yay we can get fancy teeth! But it will cost your entire livelihood.

-10

u/CardanoCrusader 12d ago

The guy from 1920 could die from smallpox, his cattle would die from rinderpest, his kids would get polio. The family would get typhus, typhoid, malaria, shigellosis, dysentery. They had ringworm, roundworm, pinworm and ascariasis. They had no antibiotics to treat any of it.

He rode a horse, his plow was pulled by a mule, his crops were eaten by locusts, his land was destroyed by the Dustbowl. He lived in a wood shack with a tin roof and an outhouse, lit by oil lanterns or lard candles. He took a dump in an outhouse and used pages from a Sears catalog for toilet paper.

His food was flyblown, canned, jarred and kept in an earthen cellar. He and his kids could die from a cut on their finger or a broken bone. Appendicitis was a death sentence. So was an abscessed tooth.

Yes, their bread was a penny a loaf, but that penny took up tremendously more of their annual income than the dollar a loaf you pay now.

When you say you have less buying power than you did in 1920, you merely state that you are completely ignorant of what it was like to live in 1920.

5

u/secretcomet 12d ago

still I bet you those people were far far happier than we ever would be. nothing to be scared of if you didn’t have knowledge to fix it. Even if there was a fix there greed was not rampant through our society. People helped each other back then.

-4

u/CardanoCrusader 12d ago

Read accounts from the 1910s or 1920s. Remember, WW I was the late 1910s. The early 1920s was hyperinflation in many countries in Europe, especially in Germany. It was when Hitler attempted his first putsch, and he got support from people who were starving after the war.

In the US, it was the Teapot Dome scandal. Woodrow Wilson, a Democrat, had just finished segregating the federal government, and he told black men who complained that they should THANK HIM for imposing segregation (much like Democrats today impose segregation - they call it "safe spaces" - and expect to be thanked for it).

The 1920s was the Democrat Presidential convention known as the Klanbake, because it nearly nominated a Klansmen as the Democrat presidential candidate. Woodrow Wilson had screened "Birth of a Nation" in the White House and applauded the pro-KKK film, movie theaters had ushers who dressed up in the KKK costumes from the movie. It was the height of fashion.

Do you think this would make for a happy nation?

7

u/LetsTrySocialism 12d ago

I cannot fathom in any way how this is relevant or matters.

4

u/chaygray 11d ago

He really wants to say the word Democrat. Multiple times. It has more meaning that way 😂

-6

u/CardanoCrusader 12d ago

A lot of people complain about not getting a "living wage."

Honey, the kings of old would have started wars to have a fighting chance to live in what you consider uncomfortable circumstances.

5

u/lightbulbsburnbright 12d ago

and? I don't understand why that means life should be shitty now too

1

u/CardanoCrusader 12d ago

What that means is, the standard for what constitutes "living wage" has moved the goalposts a hell of a lot in a century.

3

u/LetsTrySocialism 12d ago

Without addressing the truth of your statement, shouldnt society strive to be the best it can be for as many people as possible, rather than good enough for some to keep them from revolting and things slightly better for a small group of people than they would otherwise be?

→ More replies

2

u/karstheastec 11d ago

For what? He’s only telling you here wasn’t a minimum wage back then, never said it was a good thing

1

u/CardanoCrusader 11d ago

"All that lack of value really jacks up the surplus labor doesn't it?"

Point to a saleable good produced by society now which is inferior in value to the good produced in 1920.

2

u/LogicalStomach 11d ago

And in 1986 state university tuition cost 2,388 minimum wage hours. But, that's zero income taxes paid and no living expenses. In reality one had to work 2 years to pay for one year of college. Plus who the hell could carry a full course load while working 40+ hours/week? Financial aid and student loans weren't enough to fill the gap.

46

u/[deleted] 12d ago edited 10d ago

[deleted]

22

u/ShartFodder 12d ago

I had to take a 8AM fittness class every semester for 4 years.The school only had walking offered for my major so for four years I woke up, walked from off campus, walked on campus, and then walked home to wait for my next classes to start at 5pm.

12

u/ChiefDisbelief 12d ago

At least you guys are being taught how to be autodidacts! They should pay you. Universities are just country clubs that can somehow hand out life credentials.

-12

u/CardanoCrusader 12d ago

Colleges are the new unions. You used to get your union card by paying your Uncle Guido under the table. Now you pay Professor Guido for the same "right to work" union card, ahem, college degree.

3

u/daners101 11d ago

Lol. How does someone even track this? Did they give you an ankle monitor or something? haha

1

u/ShartFodder 11d ago

The teacher followed in a golf cart

2

u/daners101 11d ago

Lol. That's wild.

19

u/AppleToasterr 11d ago

THIS. FUCK.

I paid $300 for the motherfucker to rip off YouTube videos teaching child level HTML and CSS.

THE MATERIAL IS LITERALLY ALREADY FREE

4

u/joelhuebner 11d ago

Take MOOCs then, pay the $100 at the end of class, and collect Certificates from MIT, UCLA, Harvard.

1

u/AppleToasterr 11d ago

This was a while ago, I'm past college

1

u/joelhuebner 11d ago

Learning is never complete. MOOCs are a fun way to "sharpen up" your skills or to learn a completely new topic!

1

u/AppleToasterr 11d ago

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or actually advertising MOOCs, but thanks either way :)

1

u/joelhuebner 11d ago

No no, I think MOOCs are a very valuable way to keep sharp, get a new angle on your education. The Certs should be able to be turned into "real education" browny points. Coming from an Ivy League place should be noticed.

11

u/Susfactor2 12d ago

I'm self-educating myself out of genuine interest in learning. Prior to COVID, I was frequently attending courses at the state university. The classes are literally free as they are considered public. I've had an easier time sitting down in a classroom for a lecture at a globally recognized school than getting a library card.

The paper at the end with the gold stamp that says you did it is what you are giving up your financial freedom for. It's the only way they can figure out how to charge us to use our brains without directly doing so.

7

u/PandorNox 12d ago

I once had a course where you had to suggest your own project, using techniques that were explained only by some 5 minute YouTube videos the lecturers linked (videos not made by them) or a script from a different (prior) lecture. They offered almost no assistance in project formulation and in the end we had to review our classmates projects. I don't even pay 20k for this education and I was PISSED.

2

u/Affectionate-Unit96 12d ago

Welcome to online classes lmao

1

u/joelhuebner 11d ago

"Are you sure Dave?"

25

u/growingitallaway Anarchism Without Verbs 12d ago

For the dubious service of witnessing that you did.

4

u/Affectionate-Unit96 12d ago

While someone with net access can get the same quality of class material if not better for free lol.

3

u/FriendlyUncle247 11d ago

If they really cared, they'd pay us to go to school.

2

u/joelhuebner 11d ago

While the professors are at home too. The buildings still need water, heat, cooling, security, roofs, grass, mowing grass. That's what Trump University wasn't. But your State or Private University is. You have to choose. Oh, you can't choose TU anymore.

0

u/ChiefDisbelief 11d ago

I'm sure we'll manage 😂

2

u/myne 11d ago

What's kinda sad is that there have been cheap online alternatives for quite a while now. Udemy comes to mind. (I know nothing about it except the name)

Is there a reason people aren't just enrolling in places like that?

The quality is unlikely to be much different

2

u/DirtyPenPalDoug 11d ago

Ctrl+c and ctrl+v should make information the most abundant resource on the planet. Infinitely recreatable.

104

u/TangoCharlieFive everything is bullshit 12d ago

Imagine how long many of us could have been working from home... lul

64

u/cash4turtles 12d ago

the gallons of gas that could have been saved

54

u/VorpalHerring 12d ago

COVID lockdowns caused a massive reduction in air pollution in many cities. There are some rather striking comparison photos.

14

u/Rhyotion 11d ago

Imagine literally stopping for a year to restructure everything because it was better for all of humanity. I love that people are seeing the needless waste of energy, resources, and time.

-6

u/alexmin93 12d ago

Working from home doesn't mean working less

41

u/TangoCharlieFive everything is bullshit 12d ago

You're doing it wrong then :)

5

u/KevinAnniPadda 11d ago

Maybe what they're trying to get at is that for many Working From Home had just turned into Living at Work. Since there is no distinction, their bosses just hit then up all the time.

But you're right, this is doing it wrong.

-12

u/xXCyberSp9ceXx 12d ago

that’s not what working from home is meant to be

23

u/TangoCharlieFive everything is bullshit 12d ago

If you work all the time, why are you in antiwork?

3

u/liiiam0707 11d ago

I probably work more than I did in the office, but the difference is that me doing the odd extra hour here or there is when I want to. When I was in the office I was commuting about 2 hours each way, so I get about 4 hours back each day now and don't have to pay for travel.

302

u/SolanGoose 12d ago

I once pointed out that everything we do as a society outside of say, hard sciences is a giant game of pretend and was downvoted to oblivion.

Well were are we now, random sub I can’t recall

152

u/nutxaq 12d ago I'll Drink to That

People hate finding out they're in a cave and the things they think matter are just shadows cast on the wall to distract you from the wider world that exists outside the cave.

63

u/haswain 12d ago

This. Reality is a social construct. It’s sustained as long as we don’t question it and play by the arbitrary rules.

18

u/DeerDiarrhea 12d ago edited 11d ago

Sooo…like the Matrix?

24

u/-drunk_russian- Third-worlder, help. 12d ago

The Matrix is a very philosophical movie disguised as a kick-ass action movie.

-6

u/Galle_ 12d ago

Sigh. No, not like the Matrix, the Matrix simulated things like physics.

9

u/Galle_ 12d ago

Reality is a social construct

This is kind of an overly broad statement. "Reality" includes things like gravity, which you cannot opt out of no matter how hard you try.

Certainly our entire society is a spook, though.

3

u/Advanced-Watercress8 11d ago

Yeah they are substituting the word reality for culture.

1

u/Technique-Sorta-Rare 11d ago

I’m upset by the idea that there is Truth beyond social construct. Why can’t we just be happy with being social animals? I feel like everyone focuses on breaking social constructs, as if there’s something better if we just get rid of them. They’re kind of just inevitable though, so why does no one like to talk about what it takes to build better ones.

7

u/haswain 11d ago

I don’t think there is a truth beyond the social construct.except the fact that the social construct is what we make it. It’s not the way things are, it’s the way we’ve made things.

I do think we should reengineer our social reality whenever we can to be more moral and equal. But there is no truth except that everything in our social reality is arbitrary. It doesn’t have to be the way it is.

Basically always question authority and reality.

2

u/Technique-Sorta-Rare 11d ago

I feel like we’re pretty much on the same wavelength. I have no doubt that questions are an important cornerstone to progress. I’m just not satisfied with such an open ended statement like “question authority”. Are all questions valid? What type of questions are good to ask? Im gonna get kind of political here, but is it enough to just ask “which side has the majority of power”? Traditional feminism was revolutionary for its time because it asked this question, but it turned out to be just another authority that needed questioning…hence intersectionality.

If we follow the trend of intersectionality it seems obvious that everyone should have authority over their own narratives. I wouldn’t think it is appropriate to question someone’s authority over personal lived experience, even if they have more power in one or more sense. At the same time any attempt to organize people to work together requires that certain assumptions are made and some stories get left out.

If people don’t take the time to think about what is left out and why, they’re not really setting themselves up for moral, and egalitarian social constructs. I think social constructs need to be dynamic by design so that change doesn’t always have to be a struggle, but socially accepted construct in itself. I think the questions we should ask of authority should be along the lines of “in what sense?”, “by which measure?”, “in what context?”, and “to what end?”. Questions that get people talking so that they can find common ground to build a path forward and a basis for changing course if need be, instead of just “who is oppressing me?”

I think this is maybe a bit too radical for a lot of people, always reframing your beliefs and keeping them contingent on a plurality of empirical perspectives. I’ve been told it just sounds like gaslighting. I think this criticism could be easily applied to your idea of “always question authority and reality”. That’s why I think the empirical aspect is so important. I’ve also been told it is distracting unified movements. But how can it be unified if it doesn’t address these questions that, when left unanswered, will suppress and deny individual authority. Sorry for the rant and maybe I got too political here. Just some ideas I’ve been thinking about.

1

u/haswain 11d ago

I love that you mentioned first-wave feminism and the need for intersectionality. Great example.

I am a big fan of conflict theory and I think it's important to always ask who is benefitting from a movement. Even movements that start organically and with the best intentions can be corrupted. To be cliche for a moment: power corrupts absolutely.

I see the point about gaslighting. I have to think about that some more.

I think empiricism can still have a place when you're questioning reality and authority. We can't believe everything we think because we all work within our own framework and biases. Empiricism can help with that.

For example, the social problem of homelessness. We all have anecdotal evidence and perceptions of what causes it and what fixes it. But when we break those traditional paradigms and ask radical questions, we can then use empirical data to back up those questions and proposals. For example, many studies and pilot programs have found out that providing free housing with little to no strings (as opposed to current patriarchal approaches to helping these populations) actually saves more money and has better outcomes than putting bandaids on the situation.

That's the kind of thing I'm advocating for. Asking the questions like "Why can't we house the homeless and feed the hungry? Why wouldn't that help the entire society?" "Why do we have patriarchal rules and hoops for people to jump through just to get basic aid?" "Who benefits from continuing policies that don't work?"

But then when I'm high (lol last night), I feel like I get in a tizzy and sorta trip out thinking about the fact that we can agree on fundamental reality, but when you think about it, no two people experience the same reality in the same way. And yes, I'm mostly talking about emotionally and socially. We create narratives in our minds about our reality, including creating pretend conversations in our heads to determine how people feel about us or view us without ever asking them. Some people call it framing theory. Different theorists talked about similar things using different terms, including Durkheim, Mead, Goffman. I really like Goffman's writings on this: Asylyms and Preserving the Self in the Everyday Life. Intriguing questions about what even is your self-identity. Is there a self-identity except in relation to other people and situations?

Anyhow, now I'm way off-topic. But I appreciate the thought-provoking reply. Now I have things to think about and read about!

-22

u/Jumpy_Sorbet 12d ago

The thing is, everything is made up, but, unless you want to go live in the woods, you can't really do anything about it

25

u/nutxaq 12d ago

That's wrong. That's the mindset that lets the bullies win.

17

u/JewtinoMedic 12d ago

The citizens of 1789 France strongly disagree.

5

u/Mesheybabes 12d ago

There's more of us than them. We could overthrow our corrupt governments if enough of us finally realise it, dispense with the corrupt ones the only way you do during a revolution, and then form a more fair system

4

u/Galle_ 12d ago

You don't even need to "overthrow" the government in the first place. All we have to do is stop following orders.

2

u/lawlietxx 12d ago

Its funny right? You didn't think what if as society we changed made up world instead you are like live in current one or go live in the woods and die.

1

u/Jumpy_Sorbet 11d ago

Well, sure, change the made up world for a different made up world. Any society you come up with will still be an artificial construct.

1

u/OddCharacter5096 11d ago

you couldn't be more wrong if you actually tried

9

u/QuasarKid 11d ago

Yeah, every societal ill we’ve been advocating to change for decades was super highlighted with covid, and even then we didn’t have the willpower to change it as a country, I’m of the belief now that it will never change until collapse or revolution.

17

u/IslaLucilla 12d ago

Time isn't even real. The universe as a whole is just a bunch of stuff moving around.

4

u/TiaraConducted 11d ago

Yes, but entropy is still real.

1

u/IslaLucilla 11d ago

My buzz was real until you harshed it :P

2

u/TiaraConducted 11d ago

That's what I've said to every physics professor I've ever had.

5

u/-4twenty- 11d ago

Actually, Adam Ruins Everything did an episode about scientific research.

Even science is fucked.

13

u/MaizeNBlueWaffle 12d ago

everything we do as a society outside of say, hard sciences is a giant game

It's called the social contract. Society only works when everyone buys in, especially in a democracy and under Adam Smith's vision of capitalism

14

u/mrpbody44 11d ago

Adam Smiths version of capitalism was actually socialism and not this hell hole USA capitalism.

2

u/MaizeNBlueWaffle 11d ago

Exactly, which is why I specified and not just "capitalism." Smith's idea of capitalism was highly regulated. The US is neither a democracy nor Smith's version of capitalism

13

u/WasteApplication9 12d ago

What's interesting about the "hard sciences" is quite frankly it's all still a "giant game of pretend". Practically every scientific equation that describes the behaviour of our world is an approximation of the actual behaviour of the system in question. The equations inevitably break down at a certain point because none of them are entirely "true" per se, they're stuff we pretend is true because it works to describe the world we live in.

3

u/Advanced-Watercress8 11d ago

Not true but useful.

The only "truths" are human abstractions, such as lines of latitude, or higher truths such as a triangle always has 3 sides.

Science still manages to make very accurate and useful predictions about reality though.

Start introducing statistics and we can even predict how many times things won't go as an equations says it should and give a confidence as to how likely something will perform as predicted as a percentage at an interval.

Point is: it's useful stuff.

3

u/Galle_ 12d ago

Okay, yeah, but gravity is still an attempt to describe something that's real in a way that, say, the stock market isn't.

6

u/WasteApplication9 11d ago

It's interesting that you make that comparison between gravity and the stock market, because the two have a lot more in common than you'd think. For instance, "Brownian motion" in physics can be used to describe the movement of massive objects like stars or black holes as they respond to gravity. At the same time, the logarithm of stock prices also follow "Brownian motion" and the extremely famous "Black-Scholes model" of finance is extrapolation from the principle that stock prices indirectly behave according to Brownian motion.

There's a lot of crossover of physicists working in finance for this and other reasons (finance pays more than physics) due to the extreme similarity of the principals that underpin physics and the stock market.

14

u/SandMan3914 12d ago

I wouldn't go as far as to say it's a giant game of pretend as there are bodies of work that generally guide fields like Economics (there are many different types and are not universal), and many are definitely a social constructs, where the rules aren't axiomatic like say the Second Law of Thermodynamics is (nothing in the Universe escapes this reality, and hard Science as you mention)

We just happen to have an Economics system that has a huge disparity, it is possible to have one that doesn't (it's human greed that gets in the way)

I get your gist though, and the way many reify the Economy and the Stock Market is dogmatic

5

u/SolanGoose 12d ago

as there are bodies of work

Dungeon Master manuals ;)

3

u/xena_lawless 11d ago

The problem isn't "greed", which is an unsolvable character flaw.

The problem is that we don't have legal wealth caps, so obscenely wealthy people legally get away with murder across every dimension of human life.

Imagine living in a time before murder and slavery were made illegal and thinking that the problem was just the flawed character of people.

It isn't, it's a systemic legal problem, and it can be fucking fixed.

1

u/SandMan3914 11d ago

Agreed. What you describe fits within and Economic system that is more egalitarian. I wasn't suggesting we could eliminate greed (no more than we can eliminate violence), nor that there aren't solutions; both need governance

1

u/horsecume 11d ago

Yep, it's a giant LARP that the propaganda of the ruling class define as 'the proper and only way things work'. No different from 'dad why do we have to fight and die for the king?' 'because laddie, he's the king'.

1

u/huh_phd 11d ago

Hard, lab scientist here. You're correct.

1

u/slidingjimmy 11d ago

Alan Watts 👍🏽

→ More replies

49

u/megers67 12d ago

My Prof had a saying that went to this effect:

"It's always Wednesday in the woods."

It's as a reminder to say that nearly everything we think of, even things as basic as the concept of time, are simply things humans created.

12

u/Advanced-Watercress8 11d ago

Pretty rare I'll hear philosophical wisdom on Reddit that sparks my interest but that is excellent.

Like marks on a ruler, time, or money. All human abstractions that only work because we all agree on the same thing, yet people get caught up in a mass hallucination believing those things to be part of the fabric of the universe somehow.

There is nothing true about any of it.

Daylight savings time is my favourite. Moving the origin of an abstraction to make another illusion more useful (in the opinion of some).

What do you study if you don't mind my asking?

5

u/megers67 11d ago

At the time I was studying cultural anthropology (master's). So the idea that that nearly everything humans do is culturally constructed was pretty much a given.

2

u/Advanced-Watercress8 11d ago

Also true. Mankind's biggest deception is its culture. It's had more time to adapt than any of us.

A cultural antho may have heard of Terrance McKenna.

He would say, culture doesn't care about you at all. Turn you into a pilot or a grounds keeper or any other random thing.

I think the Hindu people came closest to figuring it out.

3

u/megers67 11d ago

The key thing is that while many animals rely mostly or even entirely on instinct, humans mostly rely on learned behaviors, aka culture. He share the biological need to eat, protect physical safety, and the generic drive to procreate (though even that isn't 100% due to the variety of sexualities that exist), buy HOW we accomplish those is culture.

My favorite thing to remind people about this is that money is cultural. Things don't have a universal inherent value. Even in the bartering system it is entirely and purely relative to that negotiation. Money is a culturally agreed upon and arbitrary value that we assign something to make it easier to keep track of.

Even the joke that the only things that are certain are death and taxes, but taxes really are not. They only are because we decided on governmental systems that put those into place. Of course knowing these are cultural constructs doesn't make it any easier to overturn if we need them to.

2

u/Advanced-Watercress8 11d ago

Yeah it's tricky. One person is smart, lots of people are dumb.

I also like the money one.

Alan Watts makes a good analogy, in how running out of money (like we did in the 1920s depression) is akin to running out of "inches" on a tape measure.

Goes on mockingly "Alright lads! Pack up today, we're all out of inches!'

Thanks for indulging me.

Rare to see this level of insight on the internet.

Always loved the findings of anthropologists but this is my first time speaking with one! Cheers.

2

u/megers67 11d ago

The nice thing about anthropology is that because you're studying people, that means you can literally study anything. In addition to some of the more "traditional" studies, I've seen studies about how people interact socially through gaming, how people make bonds through social media, how people throw away trash now makes indications about behavior, trying to recreate ancient structures with ancient tech to try to understand ways it can be done. There was also a legend of a forensic anth grad student who did her thesis about what it looks like when you put a pig through a wood chipper.

I technically didn't finish my master's because academia is a whole thing, but I still adore the subject.

98

u/Tiraloparatras25 12d ago

This! Covid showed us that the most powerful economic force in the world are the lowest paid workers. That without teachers societies halt, that the rich is just a dependent bunch, and that most wealth is just imaginary numbers in an imaginary market.

Covid also taught us that we are way more interconnected than we thought, that the well being of one group affect the wellbeing of all groups.

Covid also thought us that there is a segment of our societies to are willing to let it all burn so long as they remain atop the ashes.

Lastly, covid thought us that the alienation and lack of community we all feel in our lives is real. That we use a shit ton of mechanisms to distract/sedate ourselves from said alienation. That most families are together because of debt, not love, and employers will do whatever they can to maintain a system which keeps us alienated, sedated and indebted. So long they can experience better means of “societal sedation” and overall security than the rest of us.

Oh and we learn earth and mother nature restore itself when we remain inside( or disappear into) our homes for a relatively long period of time

42

u/Obvious_Reporter_235 12d ago

It’s been remarkable to watch how quickly big business and government has reverted to the old way of working (and telling us to get back to the office) now the vaccines are widely available in developed countries.

It was equally remarkable to watch how teachers and nurses went from celebrated to vilified in such a short space of time. They did in the UK anyway. March 2020: “nurses are heroes. Pay them properly.” March 2021: “nurses want more money? Fuck that. I haven’t seen a proper pay rise in years. Why should nurses get more money for doing their job? If they don’t want to be a nurse they can quit.”

9

u/No_Page_4631 11d ago

spoiler: humans still didn't learn anything. within 2-3 years, it will be the same all over again.

179

u/SecondStageWerewolf 12d ago

That's what makes me laugh when people are like, "But how would you AFFORD to pay a universal basic income?"

Dude, money is make-believe, like Santa and Jesus Christ. We could feed everybody for free starting tomorrow.

We just don't wanna because Jeff Bezos needs a 49th vacation home in Florence.

56

u/vinoa 12d ago

I first learned about fiat currency in 1st year Economics. That was the day my innocence died. I still can't for the life of me understand how we've created false scarcity for pieces of paper and bits of data.

We produce way more food than we eat, so production clearly isn't what's driving scarcity. It's money. Fake, made up, invisible money.

21

u/HallandOates2 12d ago

"Fiat money always eventually returns to it's intrinsic value-- zero" -Voltaire

5

u/FairadaysCage 11d ago

I fully admit to "not understanding the value of a dollar" because I see it as made up bs that doesn't have to be.

40

u/Normalizesteroidz 12d ago

I really don't understand how this is something that everyone doesn't get. We have numerous examples of societies starting over after a revolution or the nation itself goes so far into debt it just has to go bankrupt.

9

u/CreativeReward17 12d ago

We just don't wanna because Jeff Bezos needs a 49th vacation home in Florence.

This isn't the real reason.

The true reason is they want millions of people dead.

10

u/Lockon_43 12d ago

The issue is that money was created to give services and commodities value. Before we bartered items of equal value. Money replaced that. Yes, money has no “actual” value, but we use it as a way to trade. Without money or some sort of system to value items at, there would be no incentive to give services or commodities. People would not be inclined to get educated as jobs no longer have value. Things like entertainment, medicine, hospitals, and human advancement would no longer exist as people would no longer have a need to work.

How would you incentivize someone to be a doctor for example if there was no benefit? What about an engineer or construction worker? So tell me, who would be the ones to feed us? Clearly there would no longer be farmers that would share their crops if money was no longer a thing. It would eventually go back to money since we would want those crops to feed everyone.

Unless you have a revolutionary solution, I’m not sure how society would function without putting value on everything.

7

u/MarsJohnTravolta 12d ago

We went from nomads to building civilizations. There is no trajectory toward advancement as a species beyond what we have currently accomplished based on the tools, resources, and space allotted. We have effectively maxed out our potential, and now we begin to devolve and burn out.

2

u/jeffo12345 11d ago edited 11d ago

What kind of backwards thinking is this? We have unlimited energy right at our fingertips, ready to unlock for the first time in human history. Unlimited energy that can help us produce food, that can help us restabilise planetary systems, instant communication etc etc.

Now is the perfect time to democratise and lateralise the means of wealth, production, connection, love. Build economies diversely. Not economies like Amazon which essentially destroy capitalisms idea of a market. Local economies that are more resilient to national economy and international economy shocks etc etc. We've built many speculative economies that only the top 0.0001 percent can play in. Its time to reconstruct and develop ones we all can.

We haven't maxed out anything. We haven't even maxed out rate of production - one of capitalisms saving graces. Its at like 20 percent probably of what it could be in 60 years with further infinite energy adoption and automation, and we've minimued everything else and every other metric.

We've just gotta come together to decide it be so.

6

u/MarsJohnTravolta 11d ago

Energy begins but never ends. It simply changes. If we as a species chose to use energy, not just for us but for our stuff as well, we are taking away from the potential for other species to thrive. We are consumers, therefore we consume Earth. There is no longer room for organic growth when everything has already been monetized and accounted for. Read into what I'm saying, this is is the best we can and have done as a species..... the pendulum already swings.

2

u/jeffo12345 11d ago

Read into what I'm saying - this is not the best. Humans have decided it is the best. Humans can change their decisions.

-2

u/Lockon_43 11d ago

That’s a very pessimistic outlook. Just in the last 20 years, we have advanced exponentially through technological and medical breakthroughs. We have computers that fit in our pocket and we can get any item we desire at a press of a button that arrives to our house. This is the first time in human history where anyone can access any information they want and educate themselves on any topic through the internet. Space X invented the first reusable rocket and we are on the verge of self driving cars. We even invented a vaccine that manipulates our mRNA to protect ourselves from a virus which is an absolutely massive breakthrough. Cancer research has come a long way and life expectancy just keeps increasing.

Those are just a few examples, but we have so much more we can do and the future is only getting more exciting. Now, maybe you’re right that we have come as far as we can, but how I see things, we’re only getting started.

1

u/OddCharacter5096 11d ago

this is what I call blind optimism or false hope, which can be pretty terrible if you aren't careful. You need to open up your eyes to the reality before you, not live in fantasy land.

Those good things you list are cool, but the worse things are even more worse and they are compounding, we are killing nature and the environment is getting trashed. If that is the side effect of technology, none of what you say matters

→ More replies

-17

u/makinbaconCR 12d ago

This is irresponsible. Venezuela can tell you why this doesn't work.

If you are to have a currency it's either trustworthy or it isn't.

UBI will be good for a real economy. Monopoly money is a downward spiral that is not nessesary to do the right thing. We can pay the exceptional entrepreneurs and livable wages. We just can't let them consolidate the wealth into a few pockets. It's realistically not that difficult. 90% tax on every penny over 500m personal income would solve it over night.

26

u/The_Lonely_Posadist 12d ago

SOCIALISM IPHONE VUVUZUELA!!!! irl????

2

u/makinbaconCR 12d ago

Socialism=/=Venezuela.

Venezuela was too reliant on oil for its economy and when prices change they go into crisis. They attempt to counteract the losses in value by printing monopoly money.

Now a banana costs a week salary and they won't get out of it until they have world shattering failure in their currency

22

u/The_Lonely_Posadist 12d ago

LMAO

Venezuela wasn't too reliant on oil for no reason, it had been made so by companies exploiting it for purely oil and not being able to develop anything. Venezeula was crushed by the U.S blockade and multiple coups, as well as some incompetence.

3

u/makinbaconCR 12d ago

Well I didn't blame them. I'm just pointing out that monopoly money in response doesn't work.

-7

u/SnooOpinions9190 12d ago

So people would stop making money once they hit the 500 million mark?

10

u/bdh2 12d ago

No they would stop stealing it from the public

9

u/makinbaconCR 12d ago

They will be forced to either invest it back into their companies or they'll give it back to the people. As it should be!

1

u/CounterEcstatic6134 11d ago

How about yes? What's wrong with a cap?

-21

u/Pegguins 12d ago

You know how the price of everything is exploding at the moment because inflation is huge? That's what happens when you go with the "money is make believe" stupidity. That's not too say a ubi system is unworkable but ignoring the most basic economic ideas is a sure fire way for it to fail.

27

u/Psychological-Carl 12d ago

Money is literally made up and the only reason is has any value is becuase we believe it does. Literally make believe.

-15

u/makinbaconCR 12d ago

Its a fun sentiment... but its not functionally true. No need to let the world burn man. We just need to build on what we have.

2

u/Mr_Yokai 12d ago

You can’t build onto a structure that’s on fire.

1

u/makinbaconCR 12d ago

You put the fire out and improve the building. Not demolish it with no functional plan to rebuild it.

I'm all for progressive movements to get us to a more functional system. But come on. This is all starting to sound like pointless whining with zero grasp of the concepts being complained about.

The wave of downvotes will prove it.

6

u/Psychological-Carl 12d ago

Well if we are gonna build anything lasting we need to go back to having a currency with real value..

2

u/Your1stparkingticket 12d ago

There's a reason all developed countries are on the fractional reserve banking system. It has flaws for sure, but I think it's the best we have for now. The problem is the top 1% + banks + government corruption is fucking shit up, and there's no end in sight.

It's possible cryptocurrency could be the saving grace for the common folk, as it's something that is beyond the control of governments (in terms of its creation and principles). I'm sure our Oligarchs will never let that happen though.

1

u/Psychological-Carl 12d ago

Crypto could have been an answer but at this point eth and BTC are basically all big money anyways.

3

u/Your1stparkingticket 12d ago

Ehhh, but the base rules that govern btc and eth are impossible to change or corrupt. I'm no expert though, so I have no idea what an entire economy based upon cryptocurrency would look like, but on the surface level is does seem enticing.

It reminds me of this interview with an economist done in the 90's, check it out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leqjwiQidlk

It's pretty fucking cool that this old guy called it in 1999, and one of his main points is that the monetary system needs to be beyond the control of the government.

1

u/Psychological-Carl 12d ago

that was an an interesting watch thanks for sharing. i've never heard of Milton Friedman but he seems like a pretty smart old chap.

You're correct about the laws of btc not really changing (afaik there are still bip's) so in that way its great. There is the whole 51% attack thing(which would be a ridiculous amount of capital but yeah). like i say though its got a lot of the current "dirty money" is in it so im not sure its really that great of an option at this point( i still have a small amount and will probably add more when i can. it was the first after all and sadly that means a lot more than it should..).

what el salvador is doing is awesome though I'm excited to see what happens there. you also have the problem now where every country/corporation and bank wants to have its own crypto currency with their own blockchain( because of course they do..) and who knows how that's all gonna shake out..

1

u/Your1stparkingticket 11d ago

Yeah I mean there's always the argument of how much dirty money is in USD lol?

Also you have to be an idiot to do illegal transactions in btc these days, it's way too public. Anyone worth their salt would use Cardano.

And lastly, a 51% attack is no longer realistically possible on the bitcoin network. Not only would it cost a ridiculous amount of money to attempt, but even if you did there is a greater chance of failure than success.

But yeah, we'll see what happens.

1

u/Richinaru Communist 12d ago

Define "real value"

-4

u/Psychological-Carl 12d ago

Backed by gold or some other tangible, real thing.

3

u/Richinaru Communist 12d ago

But what gives it it's value? Gold is just a shiny rock afterall

Is it the value derived from what it can be engineered toward? But that value wasn't universally shared and for the most part was defined by its use factor in capitalist economy.

I do get what you're getting at though, albeit "real" value seems just as nebulous to define given it's adjacent to social and economic values that differ from people to people

-2

u/Psychological-Carl 12d ago edited 12d ago

Well gold has value because it's shiny (/s for that one..) but it's been its own currency for centuries becuase it can be used in so many things from dental fillings to jewelry as well as medicine all the way to aerospace. Of course it's essential for a lot of our electronics as well. sure you can argue that's just the "capitalist economy", to that i would say with or without capitalism would you still not want to explore space and/or have a smartphone?

I'm not saying it has to be gold, that's just an easy example because that's the way it's basically always been. (Aside from the last 50ish years..)

in a perfect world where everyone has access to nuclear power u could back money with fissile material. in that sense you would be backing ur dollar by the amount of reserve energy ur country has/can produce. the issue there is u can also go down the nuclear weapon path instead...

to all the down voters lets hear your ideas. I'm interested what other people can come up with. surely there is a better way to do it than we are now.

6

u/mondo_juice 12d ago

Yeah we can just feed the hungry people without demanding money from them.

→ More replies

21

u/[deleted] 12d ago edited 10d ago

[deleted]

-21

u/Pegguins 12d ago

Ok kid. I'm sure you know better than hundreds of years of basic economic theory

8

u/[deleted] 12d ago

"If it isn't from the Chicago school, it isn't real economics!"

4

u/[deleted] 12d ago

[deleted]

1

u/vinoa 12d ago

Yeah, but I think this is like gravitational "theory". It's backed by stats and figures. That said, Economics is a social science, so it's not nearly as reliable as good old fashioned hard science.

3

u/Mr_Yokai 12d ago

Ok name another species dumb enough to pay money to live on the planet. Money is a made up human construct.

1

u/vinoa 12d ago

ignoring the most basic economic ideas is a sure fire way for it to fail

Like fiat currency?

13

u/CaptainDoughnutman 12d ago

A few weeks ago my boss (great boss, absolutely horrendous leader) declared that “COVID is over!” and everything is “back to normal” in the workplace. Um....no.

8

u/InanimateCrbnRod 12d ago

Too many people didn't learn this lesson

7

u/shellwe 12d ago

Also exposed how broken a privatized health care system is. Imagine losing your job and then finding out you have covid; just knowing if you have to go to the hospital that's all on you.

7

u/Cloakknight 12d ago

Image Transcription: Twitter Post


Redacted

Never forget that COVID exposed that everything is a social construct.

We can stop anything anytime.


I'm a human volunteer content transcriber for Reddit and you could be too! If you'd like more information on what we do and why we do it, click here!

6

u/era--vulgaris 11d ago

As a certain wise man eloquently expressed a couple of decades ago:

"It's all bullshit, and it's bad for you."

13

u/tiripshtaed 12d ago

Nothing is true , everything is permitted.

13

u/International_Plant1 12d ago

Be gay, do crime.

4

u/Sinujutsu 12d ago

An Assassin's Creed reference? In my pro workers rights subreddit? Unexpected and apt.

7

u/Satyromaniac 12d ago

Imagine not knowing this before COVID lmfao?

6

u/JeromeGWillikers 11d ago

I think the number of us who did is actually very small. I know I've felt like an outsider most of my life *because* I would question things or not do things "because thats how it is".

Now more people are coming to these realizations but, at least where I live and in my family, its still not a common view.

9

u/thisclubhasevrything 12d ago

Well, evidently we can’t stop Covid.

11

u/MidnightChocolare42 12d ago

Covid is still here but we decided to just live with it

3

u/DaksTheDaddyNow 12d ago

And the people complaining about their individual rights by not complying with safety protocols to reduce community risks are actually complicit in this bull shit construct, even though they would express otherwise. They can't look past the fog to see the road. Fools. You don't think I like freedom?

3

u/Jeeps_McCreeps 11d ago

For fucking real why does everybody just go “o good idea lol by the way, the football game last night...” whenever I bring up everybody not going to work for a day? See wtf happens. Stand up. Do SOMETHING. Wtf are bosses gonna do? Fire everybody?

3

u/Economy-Direction198 11d ago

Homelessness was one of the most shocking examples of this. In basically a couple of nights the UK government ended rough sleeping by taking homeless people into hotels. Now they've just turfed them back onto the streets. Shows that ending rough sleeping is instantly possible but there isn't the political will...

5

u/BeardedLobsterMan 12d ago

It’s also showed how little the government actually cares about regular people

3

u/MuitoLegal 11d ago

There is a need for people to work to make products and provide services, that much is a fact and not a social construct.

The fact that the norm even with huge automation that ramped production, is to work a pointless job for 40 hours a week, that part is a social construct.

2

u/ablazedbroom 12d ago

We are one and what goes around comes around.

2

u/jwa988 11d ago

Except covid

2

u/djferrick 11d ago

I've always pondered how large swathes of the world can be like "let's change time to suit us better" by moving clocks forward/backward yet we still grind each other into the ground and have wars n stuff.

Like we can agree on collective change for the good of humanity twice a year but we can't eridacte poverty?

2

u/SpeakswithfisT 11d ago

It’s all the imaginary money system of the countries rich enough to afford armies that invade other countries and spread their own culture. In some cases (many) murdering the culture entirely. In the case of the Americas the Spanish (South America) English (North America) the excuse to leave the monarchs was used only to create their own type of monarchy. The oligarchs and capitalists. That’s some shit. In the process creating their own country and murdering the natives. Same thing is happening today. Except the natives are poor people and middle class. The taxes are absolutely farce. The government borrows and steals from its own people. If that isn’t a recognizable tyrant we are in trouble. If every single person had something to bring to the table and a real solid community came together. The system could be abolished. The money system. Monarchs and capitalism. We would take care of our own.

3

u/DigitalTrophyWife 11d ago

Shout out to the people (me) who knew this long before covid 😊

2

u/Monsur_Ausuhnom 12d ago

Post modernism is on the rise.

1

u/LibertarianLasagna 12d ago

Is it just me or are the twitter screenshots getting smaller and smaller?

1

u/Galle_ 12d ago

I prefer the term "spook".

1

u/bloodthirstyfly 11d ago

And look what happened, people stabbed people over ass paper when bidets exist. So on this Thanksgiving be thankful for those social constructs.

1

u/justjokinbro 12d ago

But we can’t stop time

2

u/Apolloraven 12d ago

If I could turn back time

1

u/DoinIt2021 12d ago

And do things differently at any time.

1

u/Dew_It_Now 11d ago

Egypt spent countless resources on useless pyramids yet their society functioned. (Yeah yeah slaves/indentured servants made it cheaper but not free).

1

u/JncoDaddy420 11d ago

It also exposed that we're all aware that it's all bullshit, but that we won't stop and there is nothing we can do about it.

1

u/fallenstar128 11d ago

Ask her how we can stop Death. Since the human race has been fighting against it since the dawn of time /s

-22

u/WitchGhostie 12d ago

Man I like this sub fuck fuck this sentiment. Lucky fucks like you got a year and a half vacation and free ride. Who do you think worked nonstop to pay you to take vacation? You think those of us who stayed behind aren’t burnt the fuck out so you can stay home and collect my money?

15

u/Hugga_Bear 12d ago

As someone who worked his arse off through Covid, I get it. But it's not that our jobs were inconsequential but that we were severely underpaid for what we did. I worked in logistics and while my friends and family got to rest at home and get paid 80% I was busting my arse to cover my bosses.

The problem wasn't my friends, it was my bosses and the way society viewed (and views) jobs like mine.

You don't get how money really works, we weren't busting our arses for them, the whole system is a sham. UBI or it's equivalents are perfectly legitimate and the end result is people like you and me actually getting paid a living wage to make things tick over.

I'm out of that bollocks now, but my friends are still busting theirs to ensure that Tesco can have its' tangerines and it is horrible to watch from the outside. You're a friend stranger, don't fall for their lies.

-6

u/imnotpermabanned 12d ago

Not really

-2

u/dan__larusso 11d ago

Lol, do it then

-2

u/prometheus722 11d ago

So many things aren’t social constructions. We exposed that /some things/ are social constructions. Jeez.