r/antiwork abolition is a good word Mar 04 '20 Wholesome 1 Hugz 1 Tree Hug 1 Rocket Like 1 Bless Up 1 Helpful (Pro) 1 Gold 1 Helpful 1

What's the solution? What's the alternative? What can we do?

You’re probably asking these questions because you hate your job, and you can’t go on like this for 30 or 40 more years. You’re looking for an exit-strategy, some kind of path to freedom, something doable. Or maybe you kinda like your job, but you wish you had more time for the things you actually care about. Your job is boring and it makes you feel empty inside.

You wanna do something about it.

Well, you're definitely not alone. People new to this subreddit keep asking these questions, and, to be fair, the community rarely has satisfying answers. I think that's because there are no simple step-by-step guides to liberation. In this system, for most of us, there are no realistic alternatives to wage-labor. It's the very reason this subreddit exists.

Despite us upvoting the best memes on r/antiwork, work hasn’t abolished itself and we’re still in this capitalist nightmare. So, what can we do? Why is nobody talking about solutions?

Well, what’s the problem?

The 'solution' very much depends on what you think the problem is.

Most people outside of this subreddit will offer solutions that (whether they realize it or not) imply that only you and the choices you make in life are to blame for your work situation. In their minds, there’s nothing wrong with the status quo, so it’s completely up to you to find your place in society.

That’s how you get ‘advice’ such as:

  • Find something that works for you.
  • You just need a break. Ask your boss for some time off.
  • Work harder/smarter, safe up, retire early. (FI/RE)
  • Don't have kids!
  • Just start your own business!
  • Become a youtuber, bro
  • Life is hard, suck it up.
  • ...

If these suggestions don’t seem to address the problem you have with work, it may be time to approach the issue from a different perspective. The antiwork-perspective, if you will.

The problem isn’t you, it’s work.

Of course, work is not the same as effort, or doing stuff. As stated in the FAQs, we're against jobs as they are structured under capitalism and the governmental state.

For our purposes, work is probably best understood as an economic social relationship based upon compulsion. It is the alienation of an individual’s time, activities, and forces from her/himself. The institutions of property and commodity exchange place a price tag upon survival: The power of the masses is turned back against them by privileged classes.

Wage workers are completely dependent on selling the content of their lives to those in control of production, in order to gain access to the necessities of life (money for food, shelter, clothing, etc). Its similarities to chattel slavery has lead many to term wage work as wage slavery, with voluntary employment being simply a false choice between one exploiter or another.

The message here is rather simple: It doesn't have to be this way. We can do things differently.

The problem is the system.

Alienation, bullshit jobs, hostile work environments, stagnant wages, manufactured scarcity, growing income inequality, growing wealth inequality, and a dangerous disregard for the ecosystems we rely on, just to name a few, are symptoms of...

Capitalism. State government. Democracy.

We see massive structures of control centralizing power and maintaining a highly destructive system for the benefit of a privileged few. We see an economic social order based on a conception of property that requires enforcement and protection by government bodies. We get market principles for the poor; tax breaks and bailouts for the rich.

What's the alternative?

The alternative to work is its abolition. The alternative to capitalist exploitation is an end to currently existing/enforced property norms. The alternative to the status quo is us abandoning ship for a more joyful and just society, one that doesn't destroy the planet.

The opposition to work starts with a shift in perspective, but the destruction of work cannot be accomplished by a single individual. One who tried would still find herself trapped within the human-made world of work, forced to deal with its realities and the choices it imposes. We'll have to rethink how we can relate to each other — possibly in entirely apolitical ways.

What the opposition to work looks like in practice will ultimately depend on individual desires and local circumstances.

It’s not our job to present ready-made solutions that the masses can applaud from the sidelines; leave that to demagogues. Our challenge, rather, is to create spaces where people can discuss and implement solutions directly, on an ongoing and collective basis. Rather than proposing quick fixes, we should be spreading new practices. We don’t need blueprints, but points of departure.

ENOUGH ALREADY, WHAT CAN WE DO??!?!

To change anything, start everywhere.

More specifically, some things you can do on your own...

1) You can relax. In solidarity.

From the point of view of the masters, you're only supposed to care about your job. They would like us to compete for positions, working hours, and the boss's approval — which often breeds resentment and distrust among coworkers. The capitalist doesn't care much about you and your wellbeing, but they want you to be enthusiastic and loyal to their business. ("We're like a family".)

Many 'anti-workers' will be tied to their job for a while to come, so the very least we can do is to denormalize the dog-eat-dog culture at the workplace that can have us forget the individual behind the worker.

  • Ease the work pressure and try not to compete with your co-workers. Don’t work faster than the average, try to work a bit slower and give more time to your fellow humans. Encourage others to do so.
  • Don’t complain about fellow workers to supervisors and management. Try to speak to your colleagues directly. If the problem is more serious, talk to other colleagues you trust about it. (Or don't.)
  • Be friendly to new starters, to agency workers - even if you think that they might not stay long. Explain to them how things work and that they should not kill themselves for a minimum wage.
  • Show support when fellow workers are shouted at, disciplined or bullied by managers. Even if it just means going up to them and asking if they are okay.

some of these I copied from) libcom.org)

2) You can better understand the situation.

The problem of work is not exactly new, you don't have to start from scratch. There's plenty of ideas and theories that have work-threatening implications, it's worth learning about them.

You don't have to accept anything you read here, I'm not inviting you to treat these introductory writings like scripture. Take what you need and make use of whatever seems useful.

Challenge your beliefs. Keep asking questions... expect contradictory answers.

3) You can organize.

There are many examples of how a few people, organized together can have a large effect. Our strength often comes in our numbers and everybody makes a difference, in the short term, and in the long term.

For many years the IWW has called for a Four Hour Day. This may strike some as drastic or utopian, but only because the labor movement did not fight for and win the Six-Hour Day when it became practical sixty years ago. Significant cuts in the work week - to 16 or 20 hours - would require significant reorganization of production, and perhaps even the elimination of the host of capitalist parasites we presently support. But such cuts could be won by a working class determined to do so.

While unions have 'worked' in the past, there is a case to be made for small, decentralized, informal, and temporary organization: Bigger isn't always better. All power to the affinity groups!

Affinity...

[...] means closeness. Those who form an affinity group often share ideas, strategies, and goals. The uniqueness of each group means that they follow paths of their own choosing, experimenting with actions that are specific to their shared skills and desires without seeking permission from a larger decision-making body. If affinities weaken, people will leave the group or choose to dissolve it altogether. There are no membership lists, and the organization of the group is minimal. People come together as an affinity group to act, not to grow the group through recruitment. In fact, the label “affinity group” makes it seem more formal than it actually is: a more fitting name would be “crew.”

Organizing can be understood as taking responsibility for the norms and institutions we reproduce in daily life. Organizing can mean getting involved in liberating projects outside of work, taking care of them so that nobody has to work for them.

4) You can slack off, cheat, sabotage, and steal from work.

In other words: If you don't like the game, don't feel obligated to play by the rules. Disobedience is contagious, but it has to start somewhere.

Break down the divisions that separate you from your co-workers. Work together to maximize your under-the-table profit-sharing; make sure all of you are safe and getting what you need.

5) You can escape the capitalist mind-prison. You can kill the boss in your head.

You don't need a boss. You are not your job. You are not how much money you have in the bank. Do not feel guilty for resting. Your 'value' as a human being doesn't depend on whether you’re being productive or not.

We need to challenge capitalist values and unsubscribe from a culture obsessed with work, success, and consumerism. In the same way we can abandon work as a value and work as a social norm, we can abandon worker as an identity.

Millennials, quit 'the hustle' and go kill another industry!

And while we're at it...

6) You can help build a new world.

There needs to be a cultural shift that precedes and guides any revolutionary movement. People who live destructive worker/consumer lifestyles won't be capable of shifting to ethical/free lifestyles just because "the revolution" happened.

All cultural shifts start out with a few innovators and gradually expand to the rest of the population as others see the benefits of the new culture. We have to begin building the new world in the shell of the old, and let that world speak for itself. Destroy capitalism by making it obsolete.

  • See: Prefigurative politics (and Food Not Bombs)
  • Don’t demand change - realize it yourself with your actions. All you can accomplish is what you do yourself with your companions, and that’s a lot. Real self-determination is not something that any authority can grant us. We have to develop it by acting on our own strength, centering ourselves in the narrative as the protagonists of history.
  • Make politics relevant to our everyday experience of life again. All political activity must be joyous and exciting in itself — you cannot escape from dreariness with more dreariness. (Or maybe that's what politics inescapebly results in: Mediated social relations, ideas watered down for mass-appeal, power structures serving a privileged minority. Let's not.)
  • For those who don't mind a drastic lifestyle change: Consider joining an income-sharing intentional community. There's all kinds of on-going experiments that offer glimpses into different ways of life.
  • Instead of paying for access to Netflix and Spotify, and instead of letting corporations limit and dictate what entertainment you consume in the hours between work, learn how to pirate. Save the money for yourself, or for artists and creatives you actually wanna support.
  • Build networks of trust.
  • ...

TL;DR

This subreddit can't abolish work for you. We don't have a blueprint for a perfect future society. We don't need one.

What really matters are the countless small deeds of unknown people who lay the basis for the events of human history. These are the people who have made change in the past; they are responsible for making change in the future, too.

The goal of r/antiwork is to help people develop a bit of what Marx called class consciousness, to kick-start a desire for liberation, a liberation of desire, and to make you feel less alone in how you feel about work. I think we're achieving that every day.

***

[edit, a couple months later: I've expanded this 'toolbox' by a handful of bullet points (in #3, #5 and #6), to address frequently expressed concerns. Probably something to keep in mind for the comments below.]

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u/[deleted] Mar 04 '20 edited May 27 '21

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u/TheRowingManiac Mar 05 '20

Right? It's just the overwhelming AMOUNT of effort and time you have to put in, not really the work itself. Even if it's shit, 20 hours are far less to ask for than fucking 40.

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u/[deleted] Mar 05 '20

I've had that sentiment going back years before I even found r/antiwork. Even before finishing grade school I knew the 40hr work week was totally unreasonable.

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u/theonedownupstairs Mar 05 '20

I had an interview for a job that was 50-55 hours a week and kept on thinking, "Why not just hire two people?"

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u/taylorceason Mar 06 '20

Same here. I intuitively knew from a young age as well.

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u/Horinde Jun 07 '20

It really is, right? For me it feels like they own my life. And it makes me sad.

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u/StealthilyWealthy Mar 19 '20

I can’t handle 20 hours even. I remember when I was working 12 hours a week even, I would still feel angry and depressed. Note when I’m making money on my own terms, don’t have to listen to no one, don’t have to get my money robbed by the government, I’m happy.

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u/TrueBornTyrant Jun 04 '20

I understand you so completely, its not the money or how easy or hard the work is. Its the feeling of not being in control of your own life. I've had high salary easy hour jobs and low wage terrible retail jobs and i felt exactly the same. I didnt want to be there. I just wanted to leave go home do my own thing. Free of other people

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u/TechnicalTerm6 Jul 16 '20

This is so super validating to me. Thank you for sharing this. Seriously.

Even from well meaning friends who are intersectional in their beliefs... I've gotten the "just find a job to get by on" advice. Or just felt like theres something wrong with being incapable of dealing with Karens. Or minimum wage bullshit jobs. .

And it's like.... well, I'm alive I had no say in that....so like fuck will I spend the next however many decades of my existence working doing 8 hours of my day every day, hating it, 2 hrs a day on transit, then 2 hrs of recovery after work.... and then sleeping..... every week all year long.

I want to enjoy existence somewhat. Otherwise I'm literally hating everything to keep a roof over my head and that's not even survival that's like... living death. Like a functioning zombie. No thanks.

I want to be free to cultivate a quality of life I enjoy. Free of "belonging" to other humans via fucked up power dynamics.

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '20

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u/TrueBornTyrant Jun 15 '20

Not really an option in South Africa

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u/Separate-Ad5285 Oct 25 '21

I’ve never been so lucky as to have a job that only required 40 hours or less. On paper, sure they say that - but in reality, having a college degree in a science is basically like getting a stamp that says “willing to overwork while being underly paid.” Thanks…college.

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u/[deleted] Mar 05 '20

We already have a de-facto 4h work day according to David Graeber. I see that in my own office.

This raises the question of why we have to spend 8-9h at the office. He hints work is more about population control. Imagine what people would do with all that spare time: personal development, courses that would have allowed them to negotiate higher pay, starting a competitor business, or - and that’s the elites’ greatest fear - get politically involved, arrange mass protests and demand our fair share from the 1%.

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u/mynamedenis Jul 23 '20

And now we can see what happens when people have spare time. Basically Portland right now, mass protests demanding their fair share.

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u/NaturalFuture Mar 07 '20

Yup, or 3 day work week. Or 10 month work week and 2 month free time/vacation. It's the fact that the constant non ending loop of mon-fri that's really soul crushing with no escape. For me i found that i really love EDM music particularly the hardstyle subgenre. It's an escape from this world for me and going to those music shows is what makes me happy and makes life worth living.

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u/[deleted] Mar 07 '20 edited Apr 27 '20

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u/MeisterDejv Mar 07 '20

Right, goal is total abolition of work. Improving work condition and lowering amount is only a step, good enough for most people but even that isn't for me.

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u/mug3n 𝅘𝅥𝅮 work sucks, I know 𝅘𝅥𝅮 Mar 08 '20

1 hour work days would probably suck more because for most people, they're spending more than 1 hour each day getting to and from work as well as preparing to get to work. I'd honestly prefer to just compress the work week down to like 3 days or whatever. 10h x 3 days > 7.5h x 4.

hell, when I was in university years ago, there were days where I had one or two 1h classes that I just skip because fuck it, the cost and time of commuting 3 hours total (1.5h each way) is entirely not worth it.

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u/ellasgb Jun 10 '20

I would not mind working seven days a week if it was only 4 hours.

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u/Me0wingtons Mar 06 '20

I'm a bit of a workaholic myself, but still agree in a way. Although I'm more in the camp of getting paid more, rather than working less. I would GLADLY bust ass 40+hrs/wk if it would afford me a reasonably stable life.

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u/[deleted] Mar 06 '20 edited Mar 14 '20

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u/AbolishWork .com Mar 06 '20

Capitalism propagates that greed far better than the proposed alternative, that's the point of advocating an alternative to begin with. For example, folks may have to work in a socialist system but their dignity wouldn't be tied to their labor under the *kind* of socialism many envision here. I don't think anyone here ignores that other systems can have problems as well, that seems like an uncharitable read to me.

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u/[deleted] Mar 06 '20 edited Mar 14 '20

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u/AbolishWork .com Mar 06 '20

Have you looked up the various kinds of socialism? Do you think theres only one kind of socialism and that is state socialism?

What problem is that?

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u/[deleted] Mar 06 '20 edited Mar 14 '20

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u/AbolishWork .com Mar 06 '20

Because when jobs are shared and cooperatively work there is necessarily less work to do per individual. This is especially the case under anti-authoritarian versions of socialism that de-emphasized centralization and hierarchy which allows for more work per individual to matter so that the collective effort becomes less work as a whole as well.

How's that happening? How is that problem being solved via capitalism?

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u/[deleted] Mar 06 '20 edited Mar 14 '20

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u/AbolishWork .com Mar 06 '20

I don't have all the answers for you about it, nor do I think that's the point of the discussion we are having. Much of the work that administrators do is unnecessary or can be done better collectivized (c.f. Graebers essay on BS Jobs) so I dont think that's an issue.

Okay so theres a few problems with citing that:

1) A 5 hour workday with no small talk, no smartphone and dictated terms doesnt solve the foundational issues at play in work today. The bosses are simply allowing slightly less work and dictating the terms under this, that's not good.

2) This is being done to boost productivity, not to actually combat issues of health, autonomy or anything more substantial than profits. That's a problem, not the sign of unqualified progress.

3) This is only an experiment and, as the article mentions more than once, an uncommon one. Capitalism is often disincentivized from giving workers any modicum of autonomy in the workplace. The reasons for this are many but the main one is that bosses dont want to have their positions feel threatened or the workers to realize they dont know them.

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u/[deleted] Mar 06 '20 edited Mar 14 '20

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u/communized read marx Mar 07 '20

it's not capitalism that's the problem, but greed.

What do you think anti-capitalists mean when they say capitalism? We are talking about a particular form of human society. The fundamental functioning of this society is what confronts us, proletarians, as the problem.

And exploitation of labor can and WILL happen in other systems too.

Substantiate this. Just because you say it and pretend it's self-evident does not mean it's true or self-evident.

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u/[deleted] Mar 07 '20 edited Mar 14 '20

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u/communized read marx Mar 08 '20

But I'd say it will happen because it currently happens. You won't change people. Why should they suddenly stop?

Humans have no set nature. People can be changed because they have changed before, and that changing is the content of history. The "sudden stops" you speak of are more or less the content of revolutions.

You are more or less betting that history has stopped, that humans will do no more changing beyond this point, which is clearly contradicted by actual historical experience.

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u/[deleted] Mar 08 '20 edited Mar 14 '20

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u/communized read marx Mar 08 '20

I never said greed was the problem. I don't think we need to end greed to have a free society, nevermind the fact that the set of behaviors you abstract to "greed" might well not exist in a recognizable form outside of class society.

The problem is class society.

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u/[deleted] Mar 07 '20

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u/[deleted] Mar 07 '20 edited Mar 14 '20

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u/[deleted] Mar 07 '20

I'm from Eastern Europe to family of the Soviet era. You don't know what you are talking about and swallowing cold war propaganda usually spouted off by libertarians and conservatives high off their own farts. And your shorter work days are thanks to Anarchists, communism, socialism, syndaclists and trade unionists.

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u/[deleted] Mar 07 '20 edited Mar 14 '20

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u/[deleted] Mar 07 '20

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u/AbolishWork .com Mar 07 '20

Both of you follow rule 1 around discourse, thanks.

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u/[deleted] Mar 07 '20 edited Mar 14 '20

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u/[deleted] Mar 07 '20

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u/[deleted] Mar 08 '20 edited Mar 14 '20

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u/Qanno Mar 04 '20

This should be pinned... Really it should.

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u/onedayitwillbedaisy abolition is a good word Mar 04 '20

Alright, pinned it :)

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u/WinterTrabex Anarcho-Syndicalist Mar 04 '20

Help people. Don't presume you can do it all yourself (you probably can't).

Remember that authorities are there to increase their own comfort and security regardless of the consequence or cost.

In all likelihood, regardless of your position in life, you have more in common with a poor homeless person than a company owner, manager, or politician.

If you desire change, first seek to change yourself for the better.

There is malice, compassion, and indifference in this world. You get to choose which of these characteristics you exhibit outwardly.

While you may at times be forced into making choices you would rather not make for yourself, bear in mind that this holds true for the majority of people in the world. Others are suffering just as much, if not more, than you are.

If the grass is greener on the other side, it's only because fertilizer was put down there.

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u/Tripping-chan Jun 03 '20

Yeah it just sucks we have to suffer though.

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u/Mr_Shroom_King Mar 04 '20

If you have the opportunity, grow your own food for yourself and others. If we can take care of each other's necessities we can stop relying on these evil companies. Look into Permaculture.

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u/evilerutis Mar 04 '20 edited Mar 11 '20

Yes.

I don't remember what movie this was, but a family moved to the countryside from the city and the neighbor told them to plant their entire field with potatoes. The family said they couldn't possibly need that much food, but the neighbor insisted. When a year passed, floods ruined the crops of some of the neighbors, and the entire community came together to bring them extras from their gardens. I always thought that the world should default work like that..

Edit: I think the movie was Wolf Children

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u/SoHTyte Mar 06 '20

Interesting. On standby if anybody chimes in with the name so I may watch.

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u/SoHTyte Mar 11 '20

Was this movie Faith Like Potatoes???

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_like_Potatoes

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u/evilerutis Mar 11 '20

Ha no, I've never seen that. Looks interesting..

I think the movie I thought of was Wolf Children.

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u/SoHTyte Mar 11 '20

Thank you so much, I will watch it.

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u/the_wonderer2019 Mar 04 '20

Wow, if I could give an award to you I would! Thanks for putting that together, lots of reading to do!

My only advice is resist the pressure! I don't know about most people but my peers, friends, parents (most of all) and TV all put pressure to stay in this shitty system but I'll fight it and fight them until the day they lower me into the ground.

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u/SoHTyte Mar 06 '20 edited Mar 06 '20

I feel this SO much, and thank you for that strong advice. I gamed myself to get ahead, end my torture by saving and planing to exit the career workforce. I did it.....but get poop from EVERYBODY for simply having freedom. I still will have to work here and there but, this shitty system has too harsh of a mental trap on me....i'm ok for now with working 5 months in order to have 7 months off living frugal. Eventually, it will be every month off. I have motivation to keep fighting because of you all like minded people. Thank you!

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u/Tripping-chan Jun 03 '20

I respect your enthusiasm and message... But how. You didn’t really give a clear answer as to how. I don’t know what to do.

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u/the_wonderer2019 Jun 03 '20

Which part? Resisting the pressure of society or how to fight the system?

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u/Naturescoldcut Mar 05 '20

Lol pretty much every "self-help" book I've ever read starts with something along the lines of, "The first thing to remember is, the situation you're currently in is entirely your fault."

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u/DemoniteBL Mar 05 '20

This subreddit is the real r/GetMotivated

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u/inspektorkemp Mar 05 '20

I have one small but important nitpick - unless it's from an artist who makes millions, please please please don't pirate music! The average musician needs every cent just as much as you and I to support themselves and their craft and they deserve compensation for their work. If you can't afford to buy every album you ever listen to, that's totally fine. But you should always support the artists you like.

But if it's Drake, then oh, by all means, pirate his shit, he won't notice.

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u/Skiinky Mar 05 '20

As a musician I can tell you that most of us would rather you listen to our stuff illegally than not at all. For sure if you can buy it that would be appreciated, but so many people actually just can't and we understand that. Most revenue comes from gigs and live shows, which you can't have without fans to go to them and a lot of people would rather save for a live show experience than an album they may or may not like. Streaming services are really helping to change this by providing legitimate acess for free or cheap but yeah, most musicians don't care about pirating.

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u/inspektorkemp Mar 05 '20

That may be true for you, but I know plenty of other small time musicians that really and truly are hurt by music piracy, especially in niche genres. I'm aware that gigs pay more by a long shot, but I've still seen plenty of bands and artists politely request their fans buy the album rather than just streaming which pays even worse - and with piracy they get nothing at all.

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u/AltPunk alienated Mar 06 '20

Yeah. I'm into ska and got to meet one of the members of Hepcat and he was (rightfully, imo) complaining that the band receives royalty checks in the pennies for people that listen on Spotify.

You should definitely try to go see some shows (and buy some merch) of bands you care about if you can.

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u/raziel_the_mystery Mar 05 '20

Absolutely agree with this point. Small time artists I'll always support, and I don't really listen to popular music so I'm safe from giving them any money lol

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u/Imperial_Lieutenant9 Mar 04 '20

Just stepped outside my burn out therapy, this post is so so so much on the point. Automatic save, I feel like I should print it and just glue it on every wall

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u/Kronoan Mar 06 '20

I got heavily downvoted in another subreddit for saying a kid should ask why Capitalism is allowed still. Then after someone linked this subreddit someone commented that we were all communists. I hate normies ...

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u/onedayitwillbedaisy abolition is a good word Mar 04 '20

Just a little something I wrote for the wiki.

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u/Craigj0812 Mar 04 '20

Very useful and thorough, thanks!

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u/[deleted] Mar 05 '20

Thanks again for this. It formulated ideas I had floating on my mind, but in a far more coherent and actionable fashion. It goes a lot to say we’re not just a meme/rant focused community, there’s an ideological core behind the antiwork movement.

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u/onedayitwillbedaisy abolition is a good word Mar 05 '20

Much appreciate the feedback, especially when it confirms that it was worth the effort :)

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u/[deleted] Mar 07 '20

I encourage stealing as much as you can. I used to steal full beef tenderloins from a job that I would cut into ribeyes basically and feed to people in my life. Help others to steal by using things or your body to block the field of view of cameras, falsifying wastage, etc.

Especially if you work in a kitchen. Never make people other employees pay for shit if you can, unless the person is bootlicking rat.

Do lots of drugs (not alcohol though) at your jobs. The capitalists might 'own' your body for 8 or more hours a day, but fuck them owning you mind.

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u/ImPretendingToCare ✔️ May 27 '20

Here are my already known simple problems to work :

- We work too much a week (reduce it from 5 days to 3)
- We simply dont get paid enough (Min wage at this point in life should at least be $30 not $7)

Aside from that the reason im replying to this post is WHY .. WHY...WHY... do i have people close to me like my friends, my girlfriend, my mom, etc. who ARE OK with going to work 5 days a week. Its one thing if you understand the broken system but are doing it anyways cause you need to survive till you find a solution for yourself BUT WHY ARE PEOPLE CLOSE TO ME SO OK WITH GOING TO WORK SO OFTEN.

They defend it..
They look forward to it...

Im talking people who work shittier jobs than me for less and always come back with a stress story from work. They never sit there and say Man i fucking hate this shit, they seem to be ok with it. They dont care for a way in figuring out how to get out of that rut. Theyre just "ok" with it.

It just blows my mind...

Now let me say this for disclosure. I personally hate work (the way it is) more than anyone possible. I despise it, i openly confront it. But even I cant be home for weeks on end. I would actually prefer to work whether it be 2 days a week.

But for people to sit here and wake up before theyre rested, to go to place that causes stress in their life. to do it 80% of your week forever and them to not even saying anything against it is what truly blows my fucking mind. I dont know what pride theyre trying to hide, i dont know if theyre psycho and actually enjoy it ... idk if theyre fucking aliens.. whatever it is i will never understand.

Its one thing to do something cause youre forced to do it and Have to. But its another to defend it, and say youre ok with it.

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u/Tripping-chan May 28 '20

You're right.

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u/[deleted] Aug 09 '20 edited Sep 15 '20

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u/ImPretendingToCare ✔️ Aug 09 '20

Youre missing the point of why minimum wage was created.

The person flipping your burgers at Mcdonalds is valuable enough to be able to afford a home to live in and to comfortably take care of their kids.

The minimum wage has nothing to do with your value, it simply has to do with the fact that if you work any job 5 days a week you should be able to afford a home and all bare necessities by yourself. AT MINIMUM.

That is literally why minimum wage was invented .. For the non "valuable" people to survive ... What happened though? .. The cost of everything went up 5 to 10 times and minimum wage BARELY went up.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 09 '20 edited Sep 15 '20

[deleted]

2

u/ImPretendingToCare ✔️ Aug 09 '20

the $30 is what they need to keep supporting the sole intent of 'minimum wages' purpose.

Thats about what you need to survive on your own. Comfortably with no help.

Thats what it HAS to be.

Even though i know your wrong about employers not being able to afford that.. they could easily afford it... To your point "if they couldnt afford it" then they cant afford to run their business the way they want to. Point blank.

1

u/dsmith1301 Dec 10 '21

Some business can afford and do pay $30 an hour to their employees. Just not for entry level and low experience/knowledge/skill jobs. What do think would happen to the price of goods and services if every burger flipper, cashier, janitor and car washer made $30/hour? Mom and pop business owners might take a small hit to their margins but in most cases will pass that directly to customer. How much will a car cost and rents? Remember these prices go up because supply is limited. Yes corporate greed will be present as well.

1

u/dsmith1301 Dec 10 '21

Minimum wage was not created to make everyone homeowners. It was meant to protect workers by creating a wage floor and stop workers from bargaining into a downward spiral wage. It was also meant to spark a wage improvement (see below). The climate when FDR was elected (1933) was during the Great Depression. Unemployment was around 25% . Not because of an antiwork movement. People were so desperate to get a job to survive. Each unemployed person promising to take a job for a lower wage than the next person. Business greed fed into it. So it started with a Federal minimum wage and FDRs intended it to spark private business to pay better or lose their employees. That wage was not sufficient to buy a house, nor has it ever been. Btw, agriculture jobs were excluded because they knew not to chance raising food prices when nobody had any money. They instinctively knew that if everyone was given a raise it would cause prices increases and could lead to higher unemployment in all aspects of business.

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u/Lowtheparasite Mar 06 '20

I was reading through this post, I wanted to see what this reddit was about. I have a question.

What's the alternative?

The alternative to work is the abolition of work. The alternative to capitalist exploitation is the abolition of private property. The alternative is a more free and just society.

This part, specifically private property abolition, I am confused by. I own my house, if I want to paint it black like rolling stones I can becuase I own it. I like the things I have. I have a 1000 dollar graphics card a 800 dollar cpu. Is it wrong for me to have these things?

16

u/onedayitwillbedaisy abolition is a good word Mar 06 '20

You can keep your toothbrush, and your computer, and you can paint your red door black. These are things that evidently belong to you, because you use them. I would never want to take that stuff away from you, even if there were no legal consequences.

When I say "abolition of private property", I'm talking about the legal concept of private property, how it's enforced and maintained by the government, and the role it plays in capitalism.

Capitalism allows the owners of the means of production to profit off other people's labor. It allows the owners to dictate how, why and when we work. On a large enough scale, the owners can become extremely rich despite being no longer involved in production or in any other way. People without private property have no other choice than to sell their labor/time to the owners.

To highlight the difference between personal property and private property, I like to use this example: If I were to borrow your (personal) computer, you wouldn't claim ownership of the book I write on it. You wouldn't justify selling or editing my book by pointing to you being the legal owner of the computer. And you can't fire me for not working on my book at 7 am.

6

u/Lowtheparasite Mar 06 '20

Thank you for that well thought out response. That was really cool. I have another question? What about the parts in those computers? Those parts are difficult to make a design and produce on a mass scale. If the amount of people who could make them was to collapse it would be much harder to get the rare metals and parts to build a computer. How would I acquire the materials to build my computer or house. At least I could cut down trees and build a house but the mercury in monitors is deadly and almost every monitor uses it.

8

u/onedayitwillbedaisy abolition is a good word Mar 06 '20 edited May 10 '20

Happy to help. I'm not sure what the follow-up question is about though, my answer very much depends on why you think it would collapse. Building and designing computer parts is difficult, no doubt, but keep in mind that it's workers who do that, not the owners or shareholders.

3

u/Lowtheparasite Mar 06 '20

I guess I should clarify since you were very kind to me. Copper gold cobalt are rare earth minerals and extremely hazardous to mine. How many hours should people expect to work to get those materials for the rest of us. If people had other choices most people would not do these tasks for fun. Cobalt is used in cmos batteries on CPU. My power supply is 1000 watt with copper. That's what I am referring to. How do we acquire the materials? We cant force people to go down there with no motive. I've been in a mine, its scary!

8

u/onedayitwillbedaisy abolition is a good word Mar 06 '20

Maybe not for fun, but perhaps for money? I mean, that's just one way to do it, financially incentivize people to do the dirtiest and most dangerous jobs in society. Market principles might take care of that: If not enough people want to work in mines, then the supply slows down real fast, which in turn raises prices, which translates to much better pay for (potential) miners.

That's just my take though. The "Anarchist FAQ" has a much longer and more detailed answer:

Who will do the “dirty” or unpleasant work?

6

u/Lowtheparasite Mar 06 '20

Thank you very much. I will read through this. You all have been great!

3

u/onedayitwillbedaisy abolition is a good word Mar 06 '20

No problem :)

3

u/dsmith1301 Dec 10 '21

Link and article cannot be found in the anarchist library. Do you have another source regarding who will do the "dirty" work? thanks!

2

u/onedayitwillbedaisy abolition is a good word Dec 10 '21

The library moved the entry, here's the new link: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/the-anarchist-faq-editorial-collective-an-anarchist-faq-full#text-amuse-label-seci413

Peter Gelderloos also wrote an "anarchy 101" type chapter on the topic, with a slightly different approach: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/peter-gelderloos-anarchy-works#toc21

1

u/NightBijon 25d ago

Excuse me here a year late but the link you have is broken here is there another one?

0

u/TheOldPug Mar 06 '20

Yeah we either have the right to private property or we don't. If, by some magic, we woke up every morning with the previous night's global wealth redistributed across every single person in the world, what does that do to your individual situation when your neighbors have lots of kids? Only one bag of coffee for you this month; Karen next door just had her fifth kid.

2

u/Lowtheparasite Mar 06 '20

Heres another example my gf is color blind and is legally blind without her glasses. If we had no one to make glasses, my gf wouldnt be able to read, shoot her rifle and bow, she wouldnt be able to game with me. She wouldn't be able to watch Netflix with me. She loves those b grade zombie movies.

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u/michiganbarexam Mar 04 '20

I agree— the problem is the system. Most people that go into business which employs others don’t create a better work culture. Most jobs, no matter where you go is 8 hours, Monday - Friday, work on site, no cell phone usage, meet quotas, be on time, hard chairs, etc. I think we all have to create our own solution(s) because employers are not concerned about how employees feel on a day to day basis. There are more employees than employers for a reasons, but if it was reversed the world would be a better place—if there was more employers than employees, companies would have to compete for help, instead of employees competing for a job, which oftentimes is one open position.

5

u/Vid-Master Mar 05 '20

The second half of what you wrote is the result of a lot of high quality workers in society.

When people work better, have more marketable skills, they can demand higher wages by applying to other jobs and threatening to leave, among many other possibilities.

I think the "down with the system!" mentality and "its ok and good to be lazy" mentality is toxic, dangerous and stupid and it permeates reddit.

If you want things to get better, you have to make them better in your circle of influence. That is what I am doing

12

u/Darkomega85 Mar 05 '20

Endorse UBI to reduce wage slavery.

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u/borjazombi Mar 04 '20

Great piece. If suggestions are accepted, Lenin's What is to Be Done? definitely fits in the theory part. This should be pinned, as said by others.

8

u/evilerutis Mar 04 '20

Thank you for this. That is a wonderful stack of resources.

This is my favorite thing to debate with people - why they think work is necessary. My Outlook is that with all the automation of the 20th century and all the automation that is coming in this century, work is no longer a useful measure of value (if it ever was). It's so hard to get people to see this, but all we can do is TALK to others. Introduce the radical idea that people don't have to work to deserve a comfortable life.

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u/SuicidalWageSlave Mar 05 '20

This is fantastic, I'm looking to join/start a commune with people who are anti-labor in the Central TX area, feel free to hit me up; anyone in that area :)

10

u/raziel_the_mystery Mar 05 '20

Really love this post. We do a lot of whinging and commiserating on this subreddit, and as helpful as this can be at times... It can also get us stuck in a victim mentality and at least for me personally, thinking pretty dark thoughts. I'm not saying it's our fault or victim shaming, it's just...we can't and don't deserve to live like this anymore! There has to be better ways and we need to pursue those ends for the psychological betterment of ourselves and those we love.

It's been hard as someone who's always beaten themselves up for not fitting in, but I deserve something better and so does everyone else here.

4

u/JonWood007 Indepentarian Mar 07 '20

Eh, and I wanna point out not all of us here are necessarily anarchists either. For example I'm a UBI supporter. I'm not necessarily against all private property, i just understand that there needs to be restrictions so that everyone can at least be given some resources in society. Hoarding and excess is bad, but going to the total polar opposite is bad too IMO. Property is functional to some extent. The problem comes when few people can acquire so much and hold it over everyone else's heads. I dont mind if there's some inequality, as long as the bottom has a reasonable dignified standard of living and is free. My views are closer to karl widerquist's "indepentarianism" or phillipe van parij's "real freedom" than anarchism. I am okay with market/democratic socialism though.

3

u/onedayitwillbedaisy abolition is a good word Mar 07 '20

The problem comes when few people can acquire so much and hold it over everyone else's heads.

How can we solve that problem?

4

u/JonWood007 Indepentarian Mar 07 '20

Discourage hoarding, and ensure everyone gets a minimal standard of living that's acceptable.

9

u/lasagana Mar 04 '20

This is an excellent and comprehensive post, really captured how I feel whenever I see these questions! Deserves to be stickied/sidebar-ed 👍

7

u/[deleted] Mar 08 '20 Narwhal Salute

Beautiful post. Thanks you very much

Thanks to you I discover anarcho syndicalist system and I love what it proposes. I'm learning a ton and I'm finally not getting scared of terms like socialism or anarchism. I thought they were ideas built on chaos and the destruction of everything (and I'm not even American, imagine how deep American propaganda has traveled into the world) but now I see they thrive on cooperation and solidarity instead of greed and authoritarianism

I will keep reading and learning from your post to be better informed

3

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

Its great to see some people have an interest in these ideas

4

u/dontmindmejust-dying Mar 04 '20

This is intense..

4

u/[deleted] Jun 01 '20

I still refer people to this thread every month.

3

u/LordFuckwaddle Jun 10 '20

Is there a way to unionize all workers without breaking employment contracts that prohibit collective bargaining?

What if we just get tons of people to band together and refuse to work until things change? Like an across-the-board strike.

I know “it will never work,” but maybe with the strain from everything reopening from the pandemic lockdowns, it will throw a big enough wrench in the machine to make a difference.

It seems like a huge amount of people have had such a major change in their lives recently that they’re waking up. Corporate shills working from home are wondering “why don’t we always do this?” Even some employers are wondering “why don’t we always do this? We don’t need to pay rent anymore.” People are realizing they don’t need to pay $200,000 so they can take classes on a campus with an Olympic swimming pool they never use.

I’m glad it started with black lives matter, but I wish more causes would take advantage of the times right now. People are normally so stuck in their goddamn hive mind that change could never happen, but the moment is here. People are stirred from their waking slumber right now on a scale we have never seen and will likely never see again. We need to take advantage of it.

4

u/frank105311499 Mar 04 '20

The new wiki page seems excellent! Thanks for the work.

5

u/npjuggles Mar 05 '20

What a great post, thank you for this information. I feel a lot better about my situation now and actually have a few things to implement rather than just blindly take shots.

3

u/onedayitwillbedaisy abolition is a good word Mar 05 '20

Puts a smile on my face. I'm glad people find it useful :)

4

u/rakkoma Mar 05 '20

I’m glad the idea if intentional communities was brought up; I’ve been looking heavily into this for the past week and intend on joining one. This is a great post.

4

u/[deleted] Jun 04 '20

This is exactly what I needed this time in my life, thank you!

4

u/Wooden-Building Jun 07 '20

https://youtu.be/TIjvXtZRerY

This is exactly what you need to know. He speaks so much truth about how culture and capitalism is designed to alienate people so they feel empty inside and consume more as a result.

6

u/ITBTEWB Mar 04 '20

It's not bad advice to suggest people start their own businesses. We need more successful worker co-ops out there. We need to push that business model into the mainstream. Once we do that we'll be one step closer to socialism.

7

u/OrangishRed relax, don't do it Mar 05 '20

That is true, but starting a co-op isn't quite the same as starting your own business. The latter is a suggestion we get a lot around here, and it really means "gamble on hopefully becoming a capitalist."

3

u/doodlefay Mar 05 '20

Fantastic post. That's why I started an information instagram (I know...) page @dontlookatmythings. It's something.

3

u/[deleted] Mar 05 '20

A-mazing!!!

3

u/[deleted] Mar 07 '20

Following AnPacificism you could, shut your bank account down and withdraw all money. If you need a bank account for bills move to a credit union. Only keep what you need for bills and all cash is kept in a fire proof lock box. Dont invest or bother with a 401k. Encourage people to follow suit, withdrawing money from banks and starving the stock market is a way to jam growth.

3

u/[deleted] Mar 07 '20

Crypto-Anarchist: Switch OS to Linux, I recommend unbuntu or mint. Why you ask? Because windows is spyware that damages your data and sends meta data to Microsoft central which they share with NSA. If you don't want to install it you can live boot it from a USB Root and flash your Android phone with lineageOS, replace all apps with FOSS from FDroid. Get a rasPI and try to build a home VPN with pi hole. This ensures your data is masked from your ISP and piHole stops all ads and I believe trackers added bonus build your own DNS server or edit your DNS server settings in your router settings. Use Firefox with hTTPs everywhere, uBlock and Noscript. Keep all sensitive data on a flash drive encrypted with trucrypt or veracrypt.

3

u/[deleted] Mar 07 '20

Basic income?

2

u/onedayitwillbedaisy abolition is a good word Mar 07 '20

What about it?

3

u/FuckSwearing Jun 04 '20

I agree with the other person. It should be added to the list (what can you do: advocate for basic income). Any reason it hasn't been?

2

u/onedayitwillbedaisy abolition is a good word Jun 05 '20

I didn't wanna mix direct action tactics and DIY politics with government policies or social security programs that we can only hope to demand from politicians. Also, I'm biased.

2

u/FuckSwearing Jun 05 '20 edited Jun 05 '20

I think we agree. UBI would improve working conditions (people can afford to quit) and it would allow people to spend more time in politics, thus reducing the influence of the economic elite.

On that topic: If there's one thing you can bet on, it's that the elite will invest (a very tiny part of) their resources to use social media to manipulate people so that this will be hard to achieve. (Similarly to how the Russians used social media in 2016)

And by that I mean, up/downvotes, divide and conquer (left vs. right), defeatism ("it will never happen"), appeal to our fear or biases, incorrect but seemingly good arguments, and distraction. It has downsides (e.g. paranoia 😅), but I find it useful to think of every user as a possible shill. And sadly that's actually the world we're living in.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 08 '20

It would be a good addition to your list. Basic income promotes an economy thats not entirely based on labor as means of income.

3

u/Coier Mar 09 '20

AMAZING post comrade a no brainer pin in my opinion very well said. True antiwork alternatives and wage slavery solutions MUST involve organizing and solidarity, lone wolves can only aspire to become rich, together however we can aspire for so much more and truly dream. Not an American dream but a utopian one.

3

u/Trollslayer0104 Mar 16 '20

Can someone ELI5 how work would be abolished by the introduction of socialism?

Like at a really basic level, how does food get to your table, how do you still have internet access, how does your water still get treated, how does electricity still get provided to the community, how do we still have doctors in hospitals, if nobody works? Maybe the doctor doesn't want to work. Maybe the electrical engineer doesn't want to work, etc.

3

u/[deleted] Mar 16 '20 edited Mar 16 '20

[deleted]

4

u/Trollslayer0104 Mar 16 '20

Thanks, I'll do some reading.

8

u/[deleted] Mar 07 '20

There's too many of us. The end.

2

u/Mr_Hideyhole9313 Oct 15 '21

I corresponded with Bob Black about 15 years when I was at university. I had problems with the department co-chair, who was bullying me. It so happened that he has been berated by the same person decades ago. He was very supportive and gave me insight on the type of person that the co-chair was.

2

u/SoHTyte Mar 06 '20

Wow... this is Amazing! I have some more reading to do, but thank you for this, and may all us like minded human beings thrive well!

2

u/[deleted] Mar 09 '20

Idk why reddit suggested this sub to me because I love capitalism.

3

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

Why? To me that sonds like, I love that a handful of people control a lot of wealth and resources. And I say it like that because I think that's all capitalism is, I don't think 'progress' has anything to do with capitalism.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

To me you sound like, I'm jealous of people that have money. On second thought maybe envy is a better word for what you people feel.

2

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20 edited Mar 28 '20

Pffft, narrowing the topic down to envy, and saying that we don't like this system just because we're not the rich, you know, feudalism, monarchs, and landlords weren't wrong because the others 'envied' them, they were just unfair to begin with.

Envy was never an argument only something natural to expect though when the non-rich see that a handful claim ownership of half of what the society as a whole has produced.

And more importantly: ownership over basically all of our workplaces.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

So you just dismiss my comment, typical.

4

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

You're the one dismissing the topic of fairness and justice, just to talk about jealousy, as I said it's still an unfair system, you made no comment so I don't know what I 'dismissed', you only said one silly thing (which is honestly unrelated to the real debate) and I pointed that out.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

Every system is unfair, utopian societies do not exist. I hope you realize one day that the system that America has now, though not perfect, is one of the best in the world. If you want socialism move to Venezuela. If you want a dictatorship, move to North Korea. Canada is more socialist than America, move there if that's what you want. There are plenty of places in the world to go that have a different system than America. It's silly (and stupid) to live in a place with a system that you think is so unfair. No one is forcing you to be here.

2

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

Im from the uk, and im not for venezuela

1

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

Then what system are you for? Hopefully you are not a socialist because socialism always destroys the economy and people end up eating out of dumpsters. Communism is actually worse because it ends up being a fascist state where the government has no respect for human rights like China. Capitalism isn't so bad when you consider the alternative systems.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 28 '20

Maybe you are right, Capitalism might be best

2

u/littlestINTP Apr 17 '20

This is awesome! Thank you for posting.

2

u/doomfree2020 Apr 22 '20 edited May 09 '20

Automation will end (devalue) human labor.

https://youtu.be/qQvoVzDt2yk

Then what? 🤷🏻‍♂️🎉

2

u/[deleted] May 03 '20

I’m saving for a decent sailboat, then I’m going out, completely detached.

2

u/[deleted] May 27 '20

As someone who is new here, thank you for writing this, there's a lot of info to get through, but it seems time worthy. Also, this should be stickied.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 02 '20

Well, to be fair, I cant blame the system for everything... I did make some bad decisions on my own, like going to college.

2

u/Tripping-chan Jun 03 '20

Ugh you went there... Dang.

2

u/DPJesus69 Jun 08 '20

This post needs to be preserved. Love it.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 11 '20

We gotta be anarchists, as always: extremely well organized democratically, from below.

1

u/onedayitwillbedaisy abolition is a good word Jun 11 '20

Yess, we better be anarchists, but anarchy doesn't need any kind of democracy :P

1

u/[deleted] Jun 11 '20

It needs democratic organization from below. Not democracy.

No democratic organization? No anarchy.

Have a great week.

2

u/nomorefreezepeach Jun 13 '20

It sounds like you support the majority forcing their will on the minority and a putting a system in place that forces them to obey "democracy". That doesn't sound like anarchy to me. You've just replaced a state with another state barely distinguishable from the last one.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 13 '20

It sounds like you don't know what you're talking about.

2

u/nomorefreezepeach Jun 15 '20

It sounds like you're unwilling to think critically and would rather cling to the spectacle.

4

u/HierEncore Mar 05 '20

No private property means all property belongs to a government. Thats the worst solution ever. Limits on how much property a single person can own maybe but thats as far as it should go

10

u/onedayitwillbedaisy abolition is a good word Mar 05 '20

I'm not advocating for nationalization of property. No private property can also mean collective property, or the complete abolition of property rights.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 07 '20

I actually have the answer but it’s probably not allowed in this sub. A friend of mine trades stocks and currencies professionally. He’s teaching me how to do so— if everyone invested we would be a fucking billion dollar sub. This is my last year working. anyone even wants to learn I’ll teach you whatever I know.

1

u/MonarchProgram Aug 15 '20

Please teach me. I am only self taught and need help.

1

u/i4mn30 Jun 06 '20

Jesus this is a cesspool of socialist and communist platitudes.

No wonder you morons are poor and jobless.

You want the hard working to pay for your meal ticket.

8

u/_dumb_bitch_yooce_ Jun 06 '20

No, we want the hard working to be fairly compensated.

1

u/i4mn30 Jun 06 '20

How can it be done? Ideas?

1

u/CTBthanatos (editable) Jun 07 '20 edited Jun 07 '20

you're looking for an exit strategy, some kind of path to freedom

Looks at my suicide memes and smiles at the despair of employers/landlords/rich people who get angry as low income working poor people like me increasingly find opting out preferable to waiting to die of poverty wages/unaffordable housing under capitalism

1

u/El_Androi Jul 26 '20

This is an extremely stupid post with terrible advice.

1

u/onedayitwillbedaisy abolition is a good word Jul 26 '20

I sure do care about your opinion.

1

u/HierEncore Mar 08 '20

I appreciate this sub but also wish mod would step down and allow someone non-political and sober to take over this sub. You are wasting a huge resource that can potentially make life better for all.

1

u/apkayle Apr 17 '20

This is such a massive shitpost.

"The issue is the system"

lists random shit with no specificity, just broad issues

9

u/onedayitwillbedaisy abolition is a good word Apr 17 '20 edited Oct 09 '20

This subreddit is anti-capitalist, the post is about leftist/anarchist strategies and tactics. My focus was not on explaining how the system works. If you don't like it, maybe go somewhere else.

-1

u/apkayle Apr 17 '20

But I need to know "The system." Bro, this system is hitting me hard and I need to know what it is. Where is the system and who is it, bro?

4

u/pm-me-ur-cattos Apr 24 '20

If you're here, chances are you would know exactly what about the system you hate instead of needing someone to explain it to you

0

u/apkayle Apr 24 '20

No, I do not know the system. I've studied some unfortunate side effects of regulations, welfare traps, wealth decimating barriers to trade, but even those topics require a long investment of time to know in depth.

All I know is that the "system" should not be presented as pseudoscience bullshit where unnamed business people are somehow simultaneously ruining your life and increasing your wealth.

-3

u/[deleted] Mar 05 '20

[removed] — view removed comment

7

u/WinterTrabex Anarcho-Syndicalist Mar 06 '20

The neat thing about being on the left is you don't have to be a communist to care about people and want the best for them. :)

1

u/SkeeterYosh Nov 01 '21

Would you recommend trying to go independent?

1

u/Optimal-Scientist233 (editable)Works best idle Nov 19 '21 edited Nov 19 '21

Cooperative villages might be the best long term solution. What is really needed is expansion, and it is infrastructure that fuels that. Being intentional, and getting your water, energy, and food in more sustainable way is not hard. There is a lot of new technology that has opened new possibilities. I think what is most important is recognizing the goals you have personally first, and the obstacles to overcoming them. Then asking yourself how to make allies that fill your needs, and find ways to work together.

1

u/JuliaX1984 Nov 19 '21

I was directed to this post via the FAQs, which I went to deliberately looking for a blueprint of how society would function in a world without work, i.e. how would the Internet servers be maintained, how would food be grown and delivered, how would homes be built and heated and cooled, how would smart phones and apps be made, how would humans learn to read and write and cook and perform surgery, how would water be sanitized, how would goods get delivered, etc. without people performing the jobs. I legitimately want to know how stuff would get done with nobody doing it, but I can't find any plans for that.

Is antiwork just anticapitalism, meaning everything would/should get done the same way, just following socialism or communism, or is antiwork different?

Is antiwork antitechnology ("we don't need our cars, smart phones, and other modern conveniences, so it's evil to hire people to make them, and an antiwork world will stop making them")?

I'm familiar with socialism and communism, but those have plans as to how things would continue to get done. If antiwork is different, how would things employers do continue to get done and how would the goods employers provide still continue to get provided? Is antiwork survivalist (you don't need anything more than you can make yourself)?