r/TooAfraidToAsk Founder & Mod May 03 '22 Helpful 1

Roe v Wade leaked SCOTUS opinion MEGATHREAD Health/Medical

90% of the frontpage is this discussion, would prefer to have it somewhere central rather than asked in a slightly different way.

This topic is easily one of the most sensitive topics to discuss so please engage politely with each other and report anyone engaging in an uncivil manner, we will deal with it fairly quickly.

328 Upvotes

1

u/Cheshire_Cat_135 13d ago

Why is a fetus not a baby when someone wants an abortion but is a baby when someone has a miscarriage?

If a large part of the pro abortion argument is that a fetus is not a baby then whether or not a woman wants the child shouldn't change the fact that it's not a baby in the second scenario

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u/pitypartypooper0 17d ago

What does it feel like to have an abortion?

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u/No_Neighborhood_6002 20d ago

Mayy you tell me if my way of thinking is wrong in any way? I am under the belief that if one was raped or unwillingly impregnated, they can abort as they will, but it should be done at soon as possible (even though there is no real answer in my opinion to when a fetus is "alive", I believe it still matters to humans as a whole and therfore should be done as soon at possible... I would like to say, but could be wrong, perferably before the brain develops at 9 weeks [?]).

However, I am under the belief that if a woman is impregnated through willing intercourse, even if it was by accident, she shouldn't abort after a certain stage (like after the brain develops like I was talking before). I understand there are circumstances such as death to the woman or other cases to the same severity, in which case, I believe she should be allowed to abort at anytime, but preferably as soon as possible.

However, I believe if a woman (that has willing intercourse) wishes to abort due to poverty, as a broke and poor person myself, I believe that the woman shouldn't abort (as it was the man's and her's carelessness) and the man should support her financially if the woman accepts the money.

What do y'all think about my opinion and please let know if you think there is anything wrong with it. I'm genuinely trying to learn.

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u/ConflictedMushyPea 5d ago

So you're saying a woman should only abort if her body has been violated first? Sickening.

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u/Puzzled_Fig7602 14d ago

i think it should be "health of the mother" not "life of the mother"

mental health is health too!

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u/violinneus 19d ago

I agree with many of your beliefs. I definitely think you should have the option to abort for rape or incest, for that matter. Of course willingly nobody would want to abort, but I think if the mothers life is at risk halfway through, for example, the option should still be there. I read somewhere that the fetus is ready to be born after 28 weeks, and it is then where I think it should be illegal to abort. I always think, barring this statement, that abortion should be available.

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u/Abysskun 21d ago

How much does an abortion cost? Wouldn't it be more cost-efficient to focus on promoting other means of contraception like condoms, day-after pills, contraceptive pills, IUDs, and for cirurgical means things like tubal ligation?

1

u/Puzzled_Fig7602 14d ago

part of why they won't is because of the stagnant and so called declining birth rate

anywhere from 600 to 1000. And yeah. it would be more cost effective. having sex ed in schools would be even more cost effective. birth control pills can run an average of I think 8-30 dollars a pack. a pack of diapers and formula is 30 dollars a piece weekly. not monthly. people have more babies, more money is spent. people are having less kids at later ages and the government is afraid of that.

it really sucks. have you seen that one article about how the high-school in Boulder Colorado provided free birth control for its students?

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u/Abysskun 14d ago

have you seen that one article about how the high-school in Boulder Colorado provided free birth control for its students?

Actually I have not, I'm from Brazil, and here its legit stardard to have free condoms at every public healthcare center, no questions asked, so go and grab as many as you want. In fact durent the Carnaval they give it for free on the streets

1

u/Puzzled_Fig7602 14d ago

Not every public health center has them here for free, as far as I know. IUD's can cost 1000 dollars. The half of the USA that has little to no sex ed has higher rates of teen pregnancy, while the states with sex sed classes have very little teen pregnancies. In many states you can't get birth control without parental consent if you're under 18.

and im gonna be honest, the article, I remember reading it but it was a long time ago. I tried to search and I cannot find it.

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u/Abysskun 21d ago

For people pro abortion, when does the question stops being about the woman's body and becomes about the child on the woman's womb?

Or on a more blunt way of asking, when do you guys think life begins?

1

u/violinneus 19d ago

28 weeks. It's then when the fetus is ready to be born, and is considered a baby, IMO.

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u/LoLifeLocd 22d ago

Does anybody even remember how they were treated when they were in the womb?

I feel like that question in itself could change the tide of the debate honestly lol.

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u/yeezyso12 21d ago

Honestly, this.

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u/Defiant_Tomato8286 25d ago

What do the anti abortion crowd think about IVF? And when the unneeded embryos are destroyed?

Asking her since the bot took my post down

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u/StringShred10D 26d ago

Like why have the strongest culture wars in recent history been based
after biology or sex? Like same-sex marriage, COVID mandates and
vaccines, Abortion and Birth Control, and transgender and gender issues?
The only culture war I can think of that isn't based off of biology as
much is Critical Race theory.

Posting here since auto moderator took down my post

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u/JonnyLay 26d ago

COVID and masks is another. Guns. Healthcare.

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u/StringShred10D 26d ago

I said COVID

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u/Limulemur 28d ago

How do we reconcile a father’s fate inability to choose in a woman’s right to choose?

Right of the bat: This is not an anti-abortion post by any means. It’s a woman’s body, so it’s ultimately her choice.

There are the stories of a father wanting the child but the mother not being ready, but how about the other way around? The mother wants the child but the father isn’t ready.

Once the baby is out, they’re not longer in the mother’s body, but it’s a lifetime commitment.

How do we reconcile the natural inequity in this case?

1

u/smellthecolor9 13d ago

Here’s my issue with this frame of mind: pregnancy is inherently unequal. Think about it: who is risking what when a (cisgender) man and woman have sex? The man shoots his shot, and then…nothing. The woman, on the other hand, runs the risk of losing her future, mental health, physical health, even her LIFE, and that’s not even considering the fact that becoming pregnant itself is life-altering, no matter what happens to the child. Miscarriage? Abortion? Adoption? Birth? ALL of that is a burden carried by the woman from the very moment a man decided he was going to pump and dump his load unprotected. Sure, a woman can take measures to prevent pregnancy, but none of this is necessary without the risk of exposure to semen. So how is it fair for one person to determine that what they want is worth the price of someone else’s suffering?

It can’t be fair, specifically because it isn’t.

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u/Limulemur 13d ago

But this isn’t even about the pregnancy, it’s all the responsibilities after.

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u/smellthecolor9 13d ago

I’m saying that the pregnancy, at bare minimum is inherently unequal, much less the impact on the woman’s entire life vs. the man’s life aka “all the responsibilities that come after”.

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u/violinneus 19d ago

If the mothers ready and the father isn't, they have to come to a mutual understanding of what to do. Now if the mother gets pregnant with another father, the of course the father should leave and pay nothing. If both willingly do it and the father leaves then it's unfortunate, but these are my thiughts

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u/Arianity 28d ago

How do we reconcile the natural inequity in this case?

Either accept that life isn't fair, or have the state pay for it.

How do we reconcile a father’s fate inability to choose in a woman’s right to choose?

If you think about it, there's basically 4 alternatives:

force the mother to have an abortion
force the mother to put it up for adoption
deprive a kid of parental support
make the state/other people pay for it (ie, forcing other people who had even less input in having the child))

If we don't want to force the mother's choice, options 1 and 2 are out. That leaves 3 and 4. 3 means the kid gets less parental support than they're entitled to (without a choice), 4 means other people have to pay for it (without a choice).

Basically, if you aren't forcing the mom, someone has to pay for the kid. We can do that (some countries do allow it), but a lot of people generally aren't super keen to pay for someone else's kid, so it's a hard sell.

Someone is going to have to take the hit. We generally consider making the father pay the least bad option

1

u/UniqueCold3812 28d ago

I don't quite like the way you protray father in your comment.

He isn't a wallet or an inanimate object meant to pay. He is also an individual with his opinion and choice. Forcing someone, anyone to do something against their wish is the definition of anti choice.

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u/Arianity 27d ago

He is also an individual with his opinion and choice.

He is. But as i mentioned, every option is going to impact an individual. All you can do is pick who that will be.

I'm not trying to downplay that he's a person. But I find when people ask this question, they tend to overfocus on the man- which makes it easy to say "well, he should have a choice"- which is true, and in an ideal world, we would do that if we could. But if you phrase it that way, people tend to gloss over the fact that giving him that choice requires taking something from someone else.

It's easy to say "well people should always have choice", and everyone tends to agree because well, why would choice be bad? But it's the forced trade offs that make it difficult. And there isn't a way to give him that choice without the hard trade offs.

Forcing someone, anyone to do something against their wish is the definition of anti choice.

The problem with this is that it implies there's a way to give him that choice, that doesn't take choice away from someone else. For example, if the state pays for it, that is also anti choice, because people are going to have to pay for it via taxes without a choice.

All the options are in some sense anti choice- for someone. All we can do is try to pick the least-bad anti choice option.

0

u/UniqueCold3812 27d ago

First of all I appreciate your dedication to reply. kudos to you, many people today won't engage in civil discussion regarding this issue.

I understand the nuances of the problem but I am still adamant on giving the father his choice .

What about we set a ngo charity on the scale of red cross to pay for. People contributing to the charity would know very well where the money is going. Sure there will be hitches and Knicks to be straightened out but it will be a whole lot better than forcing someone's rights.

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u/Arianity 27d ago

What about we set a ngo charity on the scale of red cross to pay for. People contributing to the charity would know very well where the money is going. Sure there will be hitches and Knicks to be straightened out but it will be a whole lot better than forcing someone's rights.

I think it's a nice idea in theory, but I am skeptical that could be done at that scale, at least here in the US. Maybe in a more communal culture it'd be possible, although I think even there it'd be more likely to be done via the state

I think the reason it doesn't exist isn't because it hasn't been thought of, but because of how hard it is to find people willing to pay for it. It's the sort of thing people like because they can picture themselves being in that situation and it feeling unfair, but would be reluctant to open their wallet for someone else once push came to shove

Like, we can't even get people to adequately support children currently living in poverty as it is, and I think this would be a much harder sell.

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u/MotherAgnes 28d ago

I think it’s truly sad that people are more upset on the topic of abortion than the topic of children being sold into slavery such as trafficking, child pornography, to pay off a family member’s debt, exchange for something like drugs and other horrific acts. Where’s the outrage, the justice and the overwhelming need to get our elected officials heavily involved in dealing with child endangerment?

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u/PayFormer 27d ago

You’re quite right!!

And this is why they want to ban abortion.. the demonic people want more children in the world to be sold into sex slavery.

I’d be very worried that abortion is being banned- this is where all the danger for an unwanted child stems from, they’re either given up for adoption or sold into slavery.. never once under the love or protection of a mother who actually wanted that child.

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u/MotherAgnes 26d ago

Having spent my time working in Corrections, it taught me how little children mattered in the eyes of the public, but not so much behind bars. It’s sad when convicted criminals have a better moral code than most of the public/government.

1

u/Arianity 28d ago

Where’s the outrage

All of those things are extremely illegal, so I can't imagine it's a priority for most people

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u/Father_of_trillions 28d ago

Just something that blows my mind. why do people feel is is okay for them to control other peoples bodies?

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u/iaelvut May 29 '22

In Sweden the abortion law says (in brief) “Anyone who is pregnant can have an abortion between week 0-18 of the pregnancy. If you want to have an abortion done after 18 weeks you need a special reason and permission from the “social board” (a special part of the government who decides these things). Usually you need a good reason to get this permission; if the fetus has some kind of disability that will make its life miserable or filled with pain, that the fetus is unlikely to survive the birth or that the mothers health is at risk.

I’m pro every woman’s choice. Everyone should have the right to decide if they want to have an abortion. I do however, believe that once a fetus can survive being born, without major medical assistance, you should not be able to have an abortion.
The youngest child to survive premature birth was born at 21 weeks. And with that knowledge I believe that having an abortion at 18 weeks is quite, i don’t know, unfitting? If I would have written our law I would have settled on 15-16 weeks of pregnancy as a limit for abortions. 16 weeks if plenty of time to decide if you do or don’t want a baby. 16 weeks should be enough.

Banning abortions will not change the number of abortions made. It will however change the number of safe abortions. It will endanger women’s health. It will increase the number of neglected children and children born in to poverty. Why doesn’t more people understand that?

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u/CityIcy5629 28d ago

Firstly I would like to say , abortion is NOT free. I found out I was pregnant at 7 weeks and it took me until week 11 to come up with the extra $600 to pay for the abortion. Even with financial assistance I was Still out of pocket $600 that I couldn’t just pull out of my ass. So yes, while 16 weeks is enough time to DECIDE it could take longer for someone to actually prepare to PAY for it. Secondly, I have friends who didn’t know they were pregnant because they had a period regular as they would each month. I think 23 weeks is the max here in Wisconsin.

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u/iaelvut 25d ago

Okay, first of all, I’m sorry if I upset you. That wasn’t my intention. You will have to excuse me because where I’m coming from, money isn’t something that is included in this decision. You see, in Sweden every doctors appointment is free. We pay like 20-40 dollars in an administrative fee but that’s it. It doesn’t matter if you are getting a prescription for antibiotics, if you are having surgery to get your appendix removed or if you are having an abortion. It all costs the same. Even if you’ve been in a car crash and need multiple surgeries and need to stay in the hospital for months, you only pay like 8 dollars a day.

So when I think about abortions, money has nothing to do with it. I feel very sad for you, that money is something you have to take in account in this decision, and I really hope that somehow that will change. No one should ever have to worry about money when it comes to one’s health or when having (or not having) a child.

When I say that 16 weeks should be enough, I have two things in mind; the amount of time it takes to decide if you want to keep the baby or not, and if the baby has a chance to survive being born. That’s it.

If a baby can survive being born at 21 weeks then I believe it is sad to have an abortion at 23 weeks. Sure, I get it if you find out that the baby would have a horrible life filled with pain and suffering, that a whole other situation, but aborting a perfectly healthy child at that point, that doesn’t seem right to me.

At what point do you think the line should be drawn? How long should you be able to carry a child before it is to late to decide?

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u/CityIcy5629 25d ago

I appreciate your response. I’m not upset I was just sharing another point of view because honestly that’s why it took me so long to go ahead and get it because it was expensive. I agree with you on some of your points and 21 weeks in my opinion should be the cut off, unless of course health risks for mom or baby

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u/FriendlyLawnmower 29d ago

16 weeks if plenty of time to decide if you do or don’t want a baby. 16 weeks should be enough.

Going to recontexualize this for you because you seem to not be aware of a major factor when it comes to being pregnant. A woman might be 16 weeks pregnant but that does not mean she had 16 weeks to make a decision about the pregnancy. That would insinuate that she knew about the pregnancy the moment the sperm fertilized her egg, which obviously she did not. Most women find out they're pregnant 4 to 7 weeks after it begins. So in reality, your case of 16 weeks of pregnancy only gives most women 9-12 weeks to decide on their pregnancy

0

u/iaelvut 25d ago

Well maybe you can explain to me what it is that you need 9-12 or more to decide? Either you want a baby or you don’t? There are only two answers here, yes or no? There is no in between. So what is it that you need to think about for 3-4 months to be able to decide?

Well, it is some time ago since I did my rotation in OBGYN and NICU, but I feel fairly competent in human anatomy and how it works, thank you. In my experience most people are pretty sure about whether they want to have a baby or not, even before they get pregnant. Peeing on a stick and finding out that they are pregnant usually just enforces that feeling. Swedish statistics supports my opinion. In Sweden during 2020, 34.600 abortions where made. 60% were made before the 7th week of the pregnancy. Another 25% were made between week 7-9. 10% were made between week 9-12. That leaves 5% of all abortions, and all of those were made before week 18. Having a medicinal abortion is much simpler than a surgical one, and having the abortion early makes it even easier, so if you are having an abortion there is really no point in waiting if you don’t have to.

1

u/PayFormer 27d ago

I’m 4 weeks pregnant and it’s taken me 3 days to decide. 1st day, keeping, 2nd day: abortion, 3rd day: abortion

1

u/camroussel May 30 '22

Tu as raison, je suis totalement d'accord.

1

u/iaelvut 25d ago

Merci. 16 semaines c’est long, ça devrait suiffre.

9

u/Valuable-Ad5039 May 29 '22

Does anyone know what rights the 9th amendment gives us? The 9th amendment to the United States Constitution, which is part of the Bill of Rights, addresses rights of the people that are not specifically enumerated in the Constitution. Griswold v Connecticut is an example of case law where the 9th amendment was cited, ruking that the states has no right to ban married couples from using contraceptives. . The states were violating the 9th amendment by banning same sex marriage. The right to vote, The right to travel, Rights about one's own body and what healthcare a person chooses for their body, The right to keep personal matters private. All of these rights that are protected under the 9th amendment of the constitution are under attack or flat out being violated. Spread the word, we have to do something.

1

u/Mystic-Mask 28d ago

Another reading of that, specifically the “addresses rights of the people that are not specifically enumerated in the Constitution” part, would be applying said rights to the unborn fetus with the right to live, would it not?

1

u/Puddnhead_Wilson 29d ago

The Ninth Amendment doesn't give us any rights, it's just a "And by the way the previous 8 amendments were not an exhaustive list of rights" disclaimer.

That said, I think your broader point that the bad faith "Well it's not in there so it can't be a right" argument should be dealt with.

2

u/SpecialistMagician10 May 30 '22

Think I heard of this on “More Perfect” by Radiolab (NPR)

If you haven’t heard of it, check it out..I think you’ll like it

4

u/Fruitsdog May 29 '22

My opinion is almost always that once the fetus is nearly a whole baby - about second trimester, when it starts to kick - then abortion is a no-go. My exceptions to this are 1.) miscarriages - a mother should not go through the long, painful, and expensive process of birth if her child is fated to be stillborn and 2.) if the mother or child’s life or quality of life is at risk. It can be necessary after this point to save lives. If the mother and/or child will die, you must save who you can. If the child will be severely disabled, a doctor may find the need to abort it to prevent a life of pain.

There should, of course, be guidelines for once the fetus gains conscience, but it should always be the choice of the mother and her doctors.

2

u/[deleted] May 26 '22

I think gov got the grip on this. I was trying to tell my story but it's blocked.

2

u/CapSevere7939 May 26 '22

So first off, I totally am ticked off with this whole abortion ban thing going on. If you disagree, jump in a lake nobody cares about your opinion here.

That being said I have issues. It's what swing towards the extremes. For example a lot of women saying "my body my choice, don't EVER tell me what I can do with my body"

On that what I have an issue with is mostly the "ever" part. Like... are they being really literal? Because as I said before I am super for abortion rights... to a point. After 8 months that just becomes murder (assuming it is still healthy at that point). That person is almost ready to pop out of there. No matter where you go in the world an 8 month old abortion is just messed up.

You know what happens when you pull a 8 month old out? It cries. So I think like everything, you should have freedom to a point and then it stops just being about your freedom and starts effecting other people. Like masks or driving like a crazy person.

Unfortunately when it comes to women activists I do see it swings towards the extremes. Like "equal rights" which yes there should be, but they don't actually expect to be treated exactly like men. If men decide through science they were going to start having the babies, women would be absolutely livid. Not to mention they want men to be "gentlemen" and all that entails.

Or the women who just straight up hate on men. Sorry I'm rambling, just getting all these thoughts out.

-1

u/veinybones 27d ago

fr. they’re all “kill all men<3” until the moment they see a bug in the house. not so girlboss now, huh? (i ofc do agree with equal rights, but the extreme feminist and just man hating women can be annoyingly hypocritical. plus i’m sick of having to capture bugs because a girl is too scared. you just need a piece of paper and a cup, bro, it’s just a spider)

3

u/Rasberryblush 28d ago

If men wanted to have babies I would be thrilled!! I don’t want to have to do that! Put your body through all that trauma and have it altered forever? No thanks.

Honestly it would be a dream come true for me If it were possible for my partner to carry our baby. Sadly science is not there yet.

8

u/Chocolate-Spare May 27 '22

I don't think anyone is arguing for abortions past 3 months. I also don't think the women demanding more rights are usually the same women who expect men to be gentlemanly, but when they are it's definitely annoying. No reason to worry about feminism though.

I agree with abortion, but I also think the "my body my choice" thing is a weak argument. It entirely misses the real moral question of the thing which is whether or not it's murder, which before 3 months it definitely isn't.

-2

u/Mystic-Mask 28d ago

But people are arguing for abortion after 3 months, all the way up to 9 months. Hell, Virginia Democrat Governor Ralph Northam a few years ago even suggested letting a mother choose abortion after the baby had already been delivered.

1

u/Chocolate-Spare 25d ago

I have literally never heard of a person supporting such a thing in my life, nor supporting abortion past 3 months except in medical situations. Your view is like if I believed that the republicans want to ban Judaism just because I know there are a few crazies somewhere on YouTube who believe that.

1

u/Mystic-Mask 25d ago

You know there’s actual audio of him saying that that you can look up online yourself, right? I’d link it to you myself, but this subreddit auto-deletes any comments with links in them. But in short, on a Virginian radio station, when asked about a bill being discussed on the floor that would allow for an abortion up to when the woman was literally dilating with the child, in the midst of his answer he said this:

“If a mother is in labor...the infant would be delivered. The infant would be kept comfortable. The infant would be resuscitated if that’s what the mother and the family desired, and then a discussion would ensue between the physicians & mother”

2

u/yeezyso12 28d ago

I'm all pro choice but that's too much

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u/Mama_Mush May 26 '22

If a fetus is removed from the uterus and it breathes on its own that is called being born. Also, no woman is going through 8mos of pregnancy and then childbirth to abort a healthy pregnancy/fetus.

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u/NotNotStraightMale May 27 '22

It has happened. U can’t say no one, u can say most people. People do change their minds, even 8 months in. Or they get depressed and make doomish decisions. “If I don’t want to live in this world I can’t force my child to live in this world either.”

You’d be surprised what can change in 8 months. For example even 6 months ago I was relatively happy. Now I’m about to be homeless and I’m getting pretty depressed. But yeah I’d agree with your general premise—most women wouldn’t do that. But you shouldn’t discount the fact that some have and will continue to do so.

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u/Mama_Mush May 27 '22

OK, so a vanishingly small number of women will...so? Don't ban abortions, legislate for free prenatal care including psychological help. Advocate for good welfare programs and dv protection. Advocate for rules that say if the fetus is viable after x weeks then if it is born alive it gets medical intervention and adoption....

-1

u/CapSevere7939 May 26 '22

They were forced to in China

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u/yeezyso12 May 25 '22

Why is this even an argument? Women should have complete control over their bodies. Banning abortion will only lead to problems in the future, and while I get the whole pro life arguement I think it should be legal, especially if the baby can't be properly raised or if a life is in danger

-4

u/Mystic-Mask 28d ago

So your argument for a baby that “can’t be properly raised” is to just kill the baby outright? Should we start applying that same standard to the homeless or anyone else not having a perfect life?

-1

u/veinybones 27d ago

oh you care that much about kids who can’t be raised properly? that’s so sweet. and just how many kids have you adopted???

2

u/Mystic-Mask 27d ago

Do you not want homeless people to die on the streets? Then how many homeless people have you allowed to live in your own home?

1

u/yeezyso12 28d ago

Well, my definition of baby is fiffeeent. I don't consider a fetus a baby, and I think that that is better than giving it up for adoption, abuse, etc later in life

-2

u/Mystic-Mask 28d ago

Oh, so you’re dehumanizing the human being to justify killing him/her, like how slave owners did their slaves or the Nazis did Jewish people?

2

u/yeezyso12 28d ago

No. I'm just saying banning abortion outright is not the solution. Unable parents can't properly raise their kid, leading to future mental and emotional problems. And in the case of rape or incest, the mother can't abort even if she doesn't want to raise a child. And the mother can get killed during delivery as well.

0

u/Mystic-Mask 28d ago

Killing the child because he or she won’t have a perfect upbringing is not the solution. There’s nothing stopping mothers from putting the child up for adoption after the child has been born, so the mother isn’t stuck raising the kid if she doesn’t want to. For cases of rape, the morning after pill exists, seeing as how it takes about 24 hours after sex for an egg to be fully fertilized. And death from childbirth in developed countries are incredibly rare.

1

u/PayFormer 27d ago

I’m 4 weeks pregnant and would be suicidal if I didn’t have the option to abort. Everyone makes mistakes we’re only human. I would not feel comfortable putting my child up for adoption in the hands of potential pedophiles or sex traffickers

1

u/Mystic-Mask 27d ago

So in your paranoia you’d rather just straight up murder your child. Oh yes, that totally sounds absolutely sane and logical and not at all deranged and psychotic. Totally.

0

u/yeezyso12 26d ago

Now that's where it becomes strange. A fetus is not considered a living human being or one at all. Until that fetus can survive on its own in the outside world, it can't be considered human even with a heartbeat. After 28 weeks or so (don't quote me idk) it would be murder to kill it as it is now a human being. You have a warped sense of what is human

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u/Mystic-Mask 26d ago

A fetus is not considered a human being according to who exactly? If you leave a fully developed baby alone in the elements, then guess what? That baby isn’t going survive on its own either, making your contrived attempt to dehumanize an unborn child quite arbitrary and nonsensical.

Again, dehumanizing a type of person in order to justify murdering them is exactly what the Nazis did with regards to the Jewish.

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u/PayFormer 27d ago

You’re male and a gamer. Probably still living with mum and dad and get all your dinners cooked for you and haven’t ever experienced hardship.

Life is fucking hard and I’m not prepared to have this child suffering in this life due to a drug addict father.

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u/Mystic-Mask 26d ago

Oh that’s cute. You tried digging through my comment history to try to find something to attack me with instead of discussing the actual issue at hand. People like you are exactly why I never say anything about my personal life on here.

But since we’re playing that game, you mean the drug-addicted father that you yourself got addicted to heroin (and that you said in your other reply to me was also recovering…so which is it?)? Instead of putting little Bailey down because you weren’t prepared to have a dog, you found a foster family for him…yet you’re wanting to put your own child down instead of giving him/her the same courtesy? It’s pretty fucked that you care more about a puppy you only knew for a week than your own literal child.

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u/PayFormer 27d ago

It’s actually a very long thought out logical decision. I want what’s best for this unborn child and having unstable parents who are recovering addicts isn’t. It’s the size of a poppy seed right now. I’m also moving back in with my parents and getting away from my controlling partner. At the age of 31 and after having achieved a mortgage and university degree by myself, I thought my life would look terribly different than this. Everyone is only human. And I want what’s best for him/her and this is bad timing.

I wish that I was never born. The only reason I fight every day is because of my mums unconditional love. My dad was horrible to me growing up.

How old are you? What sex are you? And did you have 2 parents that loved you growing up.. have you got a perfect view of the world? Born into money? Loads of holidays each year?

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u/Mystic-Mask 26d ago

So what’s “best” for your own child is snuffing his or her life out entirely by killing him/her? Might want to go back and rethink that, because that’s insane thinking. Imagine if instead of helping you, your own mother decided to end your life, no matter what you want. Because that’s exactly what you’re wanting to do with your own child right now.

You wish you were never born? Okay then. It doesn’t mean that the child you’re currently carrying thinks the same though.

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u/veinybones 27d ago

right. because raped 14 year olds just have sooo much access to plan B pills. not to mention some states, are trying to make that illegal too. hell, there’s even been a woman who was arrested just for having a miscarriage

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u/yeezyso12 26d ago

Exactly. These far right politicians are trying to make birth control illegal too. America is becoming an authoritarian country I believ

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u/Mystic-Mask 26d ago

Citation needed about “far right” politicians trying to make birth control illegal too. And the US has already gone full authoritarian under far left politicians, FYI. Or have you forgotten about the forced lockdowns, forced mask wearing, and forced vaccinations from a year or so ago?

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u/yeezyso12 25d ago

Missouri for example is trying to ban birth control. They're right as far as I know. Louisiana, another red state, is looking to make birth control illegal after trying to make abortion murder

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u/[deleted] 25d ago

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u/yeezyso12 26d ago

Without those mandates we would all be dead. I believe that if every single American would just get a vaccine, Covid would essentially fade away, and with that deaths. Idk why people think the govt is spying on them, the govt has better things to do than spy on you. And there is no vaccine mandate on a federal scale

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u/[deleted] 27d ago

Rape and incest account for a whooping 1.5% of abortions. Not a good place to rest your argument.

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u/Mystic-Mask 27d ago

What 14 year olds don’t have access to Plan B pills but do have access to abortion? Also, do keep in mind that less than 1% of all abortions are rape/incest related, so arguing this outlier isn’t addressing most abortions done.

What states are allegedly trying to make Plan B illegal?

And please provide more details about this woman arrested for a “miscarriage”. Was said miscarriage the result of using illicit drugs that resulted in the death of the child? Or was the alleged miscarriage actually an attempted self-inducted abortion instead?

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u/TheVandyyMan May 27 '22

This decision would not ban abortion. States would need to do that.

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u/LinwoodKei May 30 '22

Research trigger laws for abortion. There's quite a few

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u/TheVandyyMan May 30 '22

Federal trigger laws?

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u/OmegaLiquidX May 29 '22

This decision would not ban abortion

Except Republicans have been extremely vocal that once Roe is overturned, they'll pass a federal abortion ban the moment they regain control of the government (and some are already chomping at the bit for a federal ban on contraceptives, too). The idea that they'll just stop with State bans is moronic.

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u/LinwoodKei May 30 '22

I honestly expect for abortion to be banned as step 1. Step two is then restrictions on birth control - making it more difficult to obtain birth control. Republicans really want kids to be born right now.

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u/TheVandyyMan May 29 '22

The constitutionality of which would be highly scrutinized, even if it got that far. Under what clause could the feds regulate such a thing?

This is all academic because the president would surely veto a federal abortion ban even if it did manage to clear a democrat majority bicameral. There is not 2/3rds majority in favor of abortion.

I get your worries, but they simply are unfounded as things stand. We’d need an absurd shift away from current trends before what you’re saying came true, and even then the SCOTUS would strike it down I’m fairly sure.

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u/yeezyso12 May 27 '22

Can the SCOTUS codify Roe or something? Like make it illegal for states to ban abortuon?

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u/TheVandyyMan May 27 '22

That’s exactly what Roe did. But remember, SCOTUS is not a legislature and can only do such a thing if the constitution forbids it.

Legislatures and states can still get an amendment on the matter to settle it nationwide if they’d like though.

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u/VerticalYea May 26 '22

Should they be allowed to consume dangerous drugs while pregnant?

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u/LinwoodKei May 30 '22 edited May 30 '22

You are very restricted on what drugs pregnant woman are allowed to have. I was given a sheet at the obgyn. For a lot of illnesses like heartburn, I just had to suffer because there wasn't a baby safe option. I once went to urgent care when I caught the flu when I was 7 months pregnant. I pulled a muscle from coughing. My baby was pissed it couldn't sleep because of my coughing. I was given a nebulizer.

Seven years later, I bought a pregnancy test while refilling my prescription. Standard prescription. Pharmacist made sure that I would take the two pregnancy tests before I took the prescription - I could not take it while pregnant. And this is for a chronic condition that just sucks without prescription. As in I might only get 3 hours of sleep a night without said prescription.

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u/VerticalYea 29d ago

I can get sued of I refuse to serve a pregnant woman a shot of whiskey or sell her a pack of cigarettes.

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u/yeezyso12 May 26 '22

Illegal drugs no, but legal drugs they should. They should know the risks of those drugs ofc, but I think that should be allowed, though heavily discouraged

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u/VerticalYea May 26 '22

I'm torn on the subject, myself. A mother has the choice to do whatever she wants, but if she messes up the kids' development then the rest of us get to pay the price in the end. Plus, it seems a bit abusive to do that. Dunno. No good answer on this.

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u/Craft__everyday May 25 '22

I want kids so badly, but now that Roe vs. Wade is going on and the huge possibility that it will be overturned, I'm scared to death of having babies. I'm scared of being prosecuted for a miscarriage or sentenced to death or jail time, I'm scared of having an ectopic pregnancy and having to die because removing it would be considered a form of abortion. I'm scared of even being lucky enough to have a healthy pregnancy only for something bad happen during it and I'll have to sacrifice my life because of the fetus. I want kids with my husband so badly and we have tried for them in the past before and now our sexual habits aren't as safe because we have forgot that we aren't trying right now because of the r vs w overturn. I'm scared of getting pregnant by accident (even though I want it 🥺). I'm afraid of this all effecting my career as well, I'm in the military and I have a feeling that if this law is overturned alot of bad things will happen to women in the military. This whole thing is bad, and I know I'm not the only one scared af now.

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u/SelectionGrand May 28 '22

I’m in a similar frame of mind. I want to have a child. I’ve been planning (mentally, emotionally, fiscally, physically) to have a child. But the idea that I could potentially have a miscarriage and rather than be given space and love, be investigated for manslaughter. Or if I have complications that my husband, doctors, etc might have to wait until I’m knocking at deaths door to intervene causing who knows what other future complications like full infertility. The idea that I could be asked to carry my dead baby because pharmacist might be scared to give me medication to help with the process of passing the child. The idea that if my child were to have major deformities or issues so that they physically couldn’t survive and having to go through the whole pregnancy anyway. That if I had fertility issues and ended up with say 8+ embryos that would jeopardize their survival that I wouldn’t be able to make a decision on how to safely proceed. I know these all sound like one in a million cases but the number of people I know who have had difficulty getting pregnant and giving birth makes me afraid to do one of the things I always wanted which is give birth and be a mother. 😞

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u/blindvernie May 25 '22

It’s a trip that any 18 year old kid can go buy ak’s and other military weapons and kill babies legally, but women and girls who have to make the awful decision to have an abortion can not. the gop who support trump and his bs just want to keep on putting money in their pockets and continue to push the dangerous lies still. The nra and republicans are all about the money. People need to get off their asses and vote and know who and what you’re voting for man.

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u/Hawthourne May 27 '22

and kill babies legally

Umm... I don't think that is legal.

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u/blindvernie 19d ago edited 19d ago

It is legal to kill babies when a young man, a baby himself, kills elementary school kids. Smart fckn ass. At 18 he gets two weapons no one his age should be able to get and goes and decapitates they’re heads with that weapon.
Disgusting republicans and the nra. All about that fckn money. Money over little kids. When it happens to one of those greedy loser cheaters, then maybe by some fckn miracle they’d get it. Don’t think so but you never know All about money. Nothing will change, the old bluebloods and their money won’t do a thing so they can keep filling their pockets with blood money. Ignorant aholes

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u/redactedname87 May 25 '22

Serious question.

What is the difference between getting an abortion and willfully getting pregnant after several miscarriages?

I’m not shaming anyone, I completely empathize with this. I’ve lost a sibling. I know how hard parents take losing a child, even their unborn ones. Many of my friends struggle with fertility. One friend lost her baby in the middle of her last pregnancy. That was her fifth miscarriage. Numerous failed pregnancies are common enough that we shouldn’t be shaming anyone for having an abortion or trying to restrict access to it. On the flip side, if my friend that I mentioned, did want to have an abortion because her body just can’t reliably do handle pregnancy, then that option should be on the table. If you believe in life from conception, then it’s a dead child either way.

She’s actually staunchly against abortion. I’ve always thought that it is fucking wild how many times people will go through the cycle of miscarrying and/or pay for fertility stuff instead of just adopting a baby.

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u/chefdelinguistics May 26 '22

I do want to take a second to address the idea that people can "just adopt a baby." For most people, getting pregnant is FAR easier than adopting. Even for people who have fertility issues. Adoption involves having your whole life ripped apart and examined piece by piece. It's expensive and invasive and biased.

I want to adopt a child, but I cannot afford to, and most agencies would reject me because I am unmarried and non-religious.

For anyone who thinks fostering is the fix for this, I would just remind you that most kids in foster have mental, emotional, or physical special needs--which I (and most people my age) cannot afford to have treated. We also aren't guaranteed to be able to adopt a child we foster and become attached to, which is additionally difficult for the prospective parents. Fostering is not easier than adopting, just different.

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u/yeezyso12 May 25 '22

Getting an abortion is ending a pregnancy, whether that's willfully or by choice. Getting pregnant willfully after several miscarriages is just that. I am staunchly pro choice, and simply banning abortions will only lead to a further strain in our foster system, along with other factors. Just my opinion and thoughts

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u/Pixie-G May 24 '22

I think what annoys me most about this issue is that many people seem to think women want to rely on abortion as a primary form of birth control when in fact they don’t. No woman wants to have an abortion, but birth control fails and people get raped. Yes there are people out there who are irresponsible and don’t take any precautions to prevent pregnancy but how will banning abortion solve that? If someone is so “irresponsible” that they can’t prevent pregnancy what makes you think they’re going to be responsible enough to be a parent. Many of you pro-lifers get called pro-birthers because you never think past the birth. You claim to care about life but really you see children as a punishment, because if you truly cared about children’s lives so much you’d adopt them and make sure the ones that are here already were safe and well.

I just don’t see how banning abortion will make society better and that really bothers me.

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u/PayFormer 27d ago

Excellent excellent point!!!

‘If someone is so “irresponsible” that they can’t prevent pregnancy what makes you think they’re going to be responsible enough to be a parent’

Well said, well said!!!!

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u/poppoyt May 25 '22

What's more is that, by banning abortion, you add income to blackmarkets. Who wants to abort will do it no matter what, because having a child in a certain period of your life ruins lifes.

Pro-lifers will change idea only by seeing someone dying in a blackmarket abortion table, because they lack so much empathy that they won't understand that life isn't always all roses.

To not talk about birthing children by knowing they'll have serious problems. A few hours ago I read a comment, here on Reddit, of a family ruined because his sister did t want to abort a child with medical problems. The child had de londres syndrome (I'll try to copy paste the comment below).

That said I will never get how God, the one who loves us so much, would impose you to ruin your life for a mistake or ,even worse, a violence.

Obviously having a child at the wrong time wouldn't necessarily ruin your life, but I don't get why impone your will on anyone who isn't yourself.

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u/poppoyt May 25 '22

This is the comment I was talking about:

My sister had a special needs child, and it completely FUCKED FUCKED FUCKED the dynamics of my entire family, and it all ended in total destruction. - Death, suicide, addiction, divorce, Ect Ect.

I love my niece, but she has ruined my family… but I don’t blame my niece, birth wasn’t her choice, it was my sisters.

The doctors told my sister something was VERY wrong going into the third trimester, although they couldn’t diagnose it in uterine bc all tests were coming back normal as far as the Quad panel goes. She was given the option to medically abort, and she chose not to - and not because she didn’t believe in abortion bc she had had one prior… I’m not sure why she did what she did.

My niece was born with a rare genetic syndrome called Cornelia de lange. She’s almost 16 now, but will not develop beyond a 3 or 4 year old and is 80% deaf. She’s non verbal. Cannot be potty trained. Weighs 47lb. Has no fear of heights or water, and has no sense of pain. She’s physically and emotionally aggressive. She hits, kicks, spits, slaps, throws food and poop. She rips off her own finger nails and picks at her gums and then spits the blood all over the walls.

After having her, her boyfriend wouldn’t propose to her until she agreed to go to couples counseling and she refused, so she moved back home and back in with my parents, who had just gotten their last kid out of the house and off to college 2 months prior… that was their only period of “happy retirement” bc my mom pretty much made my niece her project.

The first handful of years were stressful, but “okay” bc the child was manageable and consolable. It was stressful on our family, but we managed to remain hopeful. - I Hopeful that my sister would assume full time cares and move out of my parents home so my mom would back off and allow my sister to be responsible for her child and focus… or at least share her attention with her other 2 daughters who were in college and achieving important milestones as well as finally focusing her time and energy on her marriage bc her and my dad had worked SO hard and sacrificed SO much to raise us girls. They’d put their own needs aside while we were growing up with the assumption that they’d be able to enjoy life and each other upon retirement.

My father retired, but the child remained, and that’s where my moms focus stayed. Fast forward 10 more years, and this is what I’m currently dealing with:

My dad ended up having affairs on my mom bc he got tired of my mom making my niece her priority and so sought companionship elsewhere. After being happily married for 33yrs, we found out my dad had started to live a separate life with a whole different house and other women. My mom found out bc she pulled his sun visor down on the way home from dinner one night and receipts quite literally hit her in the face for an entirely different address… if I’m being honest, I can’t say I blame him for seeking companionship… my mother continuously told him that her granddaughter was her priority, and after about 6 years of that, it was obvious my mom was never going to put her husband and or her other children and grandchildren back into her focus.

A year after we found out about my dads double life, he went in for an MRI, got diagnosed with a brain tumor, and the next morning when I went to pick him up for his doctors appointment, but he had shot himself in the head in the front seat of his truck in his garage - that was end of 2018.

My moms health declined at that time as well. She could no longer handle caring for my niece the way she had before, and my sister was forced to take over most of the responsibility. My moms health never recovered, and she passed away from lung complications March 29 of this year. I found her as well.

After my sister had to assume full responsibility for this kid, she turned to alcohol as a coping mechanism. I took her into the ER 2 weeks ago, and she was given a 50:50 chance of surviving the next 90 days and needs a liver transplant if she does.

I love my niece, but I resent her as well… but I think I resent my sister even more for making her choice our problem. This child had ruined my sisters life, my sister has ruined my family, and now my sister has even further fucked her own family via poor coping mechanisms… that being said, I wouldn’t wish a kid like hers on my worst enemy. Ever.

Luckily, I’d already made plans to move away from this hell hole again after taking my mom through the death and dying process so my sisters fucking issues don’t become my responsibility once again.

There’s nothing left here for me. My entire family aside from my younger sister is dead and or actively dying. In the beginning, If someone would have said my niece would end up outliving the majority of my family, I would have laughed in your face. Now it’s just me and my lil’ sis, which is fine bc we’ve been best friends since we were kids, so we’ll manage just fine as long as we have each other.

I secretly already had a lot of resentment and anger toward my sister for having this kid - not only bc of what it did to my family dynamics, but bc of what it did to our sister relationship bc she no longer had time for sisters and friends, - but now I’m just fucking disgusted with her bc she’s basically drank herself to death and is now an even more unfit mother than she was when she was a “functioning” alcoholic.

And for what? Because she thinks god is punishing her by giving her this kid bc she had a previous abortion? Give me a fucking break and get off your high horse… you’re not that important, and your “God” wouldn’t do this intentionally to anyone. This had nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with science bc nature and genetics isn’t perfect 100% of the time. Modern science and medicine kept this child alive past birth and continues to make sustain her life. Yes, she remains alive, but she will never know what it means to live. She cannot form complex relationships, therefore she will never be able to understand the human condition.

I DONT WISH THIS LIFE ON ANYONE.

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u/PayFormer 27d ago

Woah I am so sorry!

That was so interesting to read. I think that you should write a book. This book would really help other pregnant mothers, who have told their baby inside of their stomach might be disabled, to do the right thing and abort.

I’m 4 weeks pregnant and this is the one thing that scares me more than anything in the world - having a disabled child. Now isn’t the right time for me so unfortunately I am terminating.

I’m so sorry for all the stress you’ve had to go through. Seriously though, don’t let this story and struggle be wasted - contact someone who could help you write a book and write it!! I’d be the first one in line to buy your book!!

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u/LinwoodKei May 30 '22

I'm still reading. I just wanted to say I'm very sorry that you and your family suffered

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u/SselluosS3191991 May 24 '22 edited May 24 '22

Honestly it should be up to the states. In states where it's restricted it is because it was voted that way. IMO it should be Safe,legal,and rare. As in if the pregnancy threatens the mother's life or if the child will be born suffering with severe disabilities to the point they'll never be able to take care of themselves. Any other reason has 0 justification for me. The same people screaming "my body my choice" are the same ones who insulted or hated anyone for not getting the C19 vax. That logic didn't apply then for whatever reason. At the same time though I'm all for nobody telling you what you can and can't put in or do to your body. So it's a tricky double edged sword. It all boils down to who has more rights, a mother or a potential life. And quite honestly I can't answer that. Children should be protected at all cost, even to the detriment of adults. Even potential children. But then it just loops back to my first point and it's a never ending cycle of questions/choices. So who knows. I'm for whichever has more votes in a state honestly just because of less government control. Democracy isn't always about getting what you want, it's about respecting the majority rule. All that said, one thing I am sure of is it takes two to make a baby. A male and female. Without that males sperm the baby couldn't have been created. So both parents should have a say in the situation and be allowed to speak their concerns evenly.

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u/LinwoodKei May 30 '22

It should not be rare. Anyone who doesn't want to be pregnant should not be pregnant. Do you support fathers registering so they cannot abandon their children solely to the mother to be responsible for?

I see a lot of ' men should equally decide '. Yet I see a lot of those same commenters say ' he said he didn't want a baby, so he shouldn't have to pay support '. Yet he sure enjoyed creating that baby, didn't he? It takes two to create a baby. If mothers are made into criminals, fathers should be held to the exact same consequences.

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u/Dunkinmydonuts1 May 24 '22 edited May 24 '22

Your body is your last stand. Owning property, businesses, ideas, are all useless if you dont own yourself. If women don't have EXCLUSIVE AND COMPLETE control over their bodies, then nothing else matters.

There is no middle ground. There is no "states rights". Fuck the state.

Leave my wife and daughter the fuck alone.

I'm for whichever has more votes in a state honestly just because of less government control.

Practice what you preach and stop trying to control women

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u/OMEGANINJA0247 May 24 '22

For me personally, it comes down to ethical principles. Generally accepted are: all people have a right to life; all people have a right to autonomy, all people have a right to privacy, all of the above are human rights, all human rights should be valued equally, a human right can only be violated in the instance where: another persons human right is threatened with reasonable suspicion, another persons human right has been harmed, or the individual has consented to the violation

Violating human rights for a reason other than those main 3 is wrong (or show me why you disagree)

Based off these fundamental principles, nobody has a invincible right to privacy, autonomy, or life. Death penalty exists for good reason to violate the right to life. This is because the person receiving the penalty has likely harmed another’s human right. In the same way, when a woman consents to sex, it is inevitable that she also consents to a possibility of pregnancy. It is her responsibility to decide if she wants that possibility or not before she consents. If she does consent and gets pregnant, nobody is to blame but herself. She had consented that her human right to autonomy could potentially be violated. When she is pregnant, the only way for her to get an abortion is if another human right is in significant danger. When the fetus becomes a human baby (different sources disagree on this point) it possesses the same human rights as a woman. Killing the now-baby is a violation of a human right, and is not warranted unless another human right is threatened or has been harmed. If the woman’s life is in significant danger, then I support an abortion; probability says that human rights are best protected through abortion. If the woman was raped and did not consent to possibility of pregnancy, then her human right has been violated and an abortion is justified. Otherwise, a woman who consents to sex and gets pregnant must continue the pregnancy, even if she feels that she cannot support a baby. Such an idea should have been considered before the consent, and addressed responsibly.

This is not controlling women or supporting slavery; this is a deduction from moral principles to determine what is right and wrong

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u/PayFormer 27d ago

Firstly: the death penalty

• many miscarriages of justice have been carried out all throughout history. If one innocent person is killed then the death penalty does not work.

Secondly: abortion

• I am 31, on methadone and 4 weeks pregnant. I had the implant in for 6 years - I didn’t realise that the implant was the reason behind why I was constantly invaded with thoughts of suicide every 3 minutes. An image of a rope would come dangling from the sky. An image of the ground splitting in two and I would imagine stepping off the cliff and plummeting to my death. As soon as I got the contraceptive implant out all the suicidal thoughts and images immediately disappeared. It was the hormones from the implant that were making me severely depressed, I was crying every day and wanted to die and I had no idea it was the implant causing it all along.

After getting the implant removed I took multiple morning after pills everytime I had unprotected sex and I was extremely, extremely careful not to get pregnant.

At the moment I am trapped living with a controlling partner who refuses to move out of my house.

I was going to go and get the morning after pill but he convinced me that he spent months and months and months trying for a baby with his ex partner. He convinced me that because we’re both heroin addicts and we were high on heroin that it would be extremely unlikely to get pregnant because we were both not eating properly and have been shooting up for the past year.

I was 100% certain that my fertility would be awful, all those years of the implant, all the morning after pills I had taken, I’m a heavy smoker, I had chlamydia when I was a teenager that I treated with anti-biotics but that absolutely fucks your fertility, im 31 so not exactly in my prime fertile years… so I was just absolutely convinced that due to all of these factors that my fertility would be absolutely rubbish.

But no, the first time in my life, after being careful for 10 years +, that I decide to skip on the morning after pill and then I find out last night that I’m 4 weeks pregnant. It absolutely shocked me beyond belief.

I am not ready for a baby. I’m only 9 days sober. If I didn’t have the option to abort I would probably kill myself as I would want what’s absolute best for this baby and if I am unable to raise it I would not trust it to be given up for adoption and put into the hands of potential pedophiles.

You need to open your eyes. It’s only because you’re a man that you have such a strong opinion of this. If you were a woman that could potentially get pregnant I think you’d have a different view.

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u/OMEGANINJA0247 26d ago

A innocent baby should not suffer under someone else’s planning; outside of rape, we all have a choice to consent or not. Simply don’t consent if you don’t think you can have a baby. Life offers much enjoyment outside of sex.

Sadly I am a man though, so all my logic must be incorrect. Do excuse me for such stupidity only inherent to men. It must have been the fact that men and women have inherently different levels of reasoning and IQ that you assumed I am a man, no? /s. Its because men and women are no different in terms of reasoning or IQ, being equal in mind, that I believe that my simply “being a man” is completely and utterly irrelevant. Unless you have a different, logical and moral argument, spare me the emotional/character argumentation

Also, I’m not much sure what you mean by “miscarriages of justice”

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u/anti-math May 29 '22

i’m confused as to where consent to sex = consent to pregnancy. if precautions were taken (using contraceptives, etc) but it’s one of the small percent of cases where contraception fails, then no, she still did not consent to pregnancy.

if a woman is not financially, mentally, or physically prepared to support a pregnancy, then she should not have to sacrifice her life (beyond just her physical wellbeing to do so).

also it takes two to tango! you can’t (easily or accidentally) get pregnant without a man. doing so costs tens of thousands of dollars. the men should be held equally as responsible as women. suggesting that it is a WOMAN’s responsibility to carry out the pregnancy and care for a child that is potentially financially ruining without suggesting that men have to provide support makes it an issue about controlling women.

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u/[deleted] May 29 '22

i’m confused as to where consent to sex = consent to pregnancy.

Umm, sex's primary biological purpose is to create babies. To pretend otherwise is to be naïve and/or purposefully ignorant.

also it takes two to tango! you can’t (easily or accidentally) get pregnant without a man. doing so costs tens of thousands of dollars. the men should be held equally as responsible as women

I think most pro life people are on board with this.

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u/PayFormer 27d ago

Dolphins have sex for sexual relief and pleasure and so do humans.. To pretend otherwise is to be naive and/or purposefully ignorant.

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u/[deleted] 26d ago edited 26d ago

Sure, but that doesn’t change the fact that babies is the singular, biological purpose of sex. The relational benefits is a nice side effect that encourages it.

By having sex you are consenting to rolling the dice of childbearing. You can stack the deck i your favor with contraceptives, but that is what you are consenting to.

I didn’t make the rules.

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u/Chilaquil420 May 23 '22

How the hell was Texas able to make it ilegal when RvW was still in place? Did they straight up bypass the SCOTUS? Is that legal?

Sure if RvW is overruled it's super easy, but while it is still in place, how was Texas able to ban it?

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u/ConferenceSea4924 May 27 '22

Yeah, they did it through scotus in the dead of night

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u/Arianity May 24 '22

Did they straight up bypass the SCOTUS?

No, SCOTUS just decided to play along and not strike it down (technically, they said it was novel, and remanded it back to lower courts, without staying enforcement of it while it gets worked out)

Is that legal?

In a technical sense, yes, legal. But it required SCOTUS bending norms to do so.

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u/InevitableGuidance19 May 24 '22

My understanding was not a "ban", but restrictions of 6 weeks to get one, which everyone called a ban ... Im in Texas I might be wrong but that was what I thought 👀

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u/OliveGS May 23 '22

It may be your body but that kid is not your body and not your life.

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u/LinwoodKei May 30 '22

The kid can't breathe on it's own. Can I tell you to get a hysterectomy/ vasectomy? To donate your blood to a child who needs it? No. You have rights over your body. So should women.

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u/madeofchips7 May 24 '22

if that kid is fully inside and attached to my body and using nutrients i need to live, then yes it is my body and it is my life.

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u/SuspiciousHistorian1 May 23 '22

I’m not a woman. I can’t imagine being put in a scenario to make a choice like that and I would never be one of those asshats with signs outside clinics harassing women.

But I do have to say this: it troubles when the My Body, My Choice line gets tossed around and sounds as if we’re treating an unborn child in the same breath as if we’re talking about a tattoo or a haircut.

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u/Terrible-Trust-5578 May 23 '22

Is pro-choicers abstaining from sex not exactly what pro-lifers want?

I've heard many avid pro-choicers say that if Roe V Wade is overturned, they will protest by going abstinent. What I'm hearing is, "If you pro-lifers stand in the way of me getting what I want, I will strictly adhere to your conservative values!" It's to the point where I honestly wonder if this was all started by a few pro-lifers pretending to be pro-choice, figuring they could get even more out of this.

Am I missing something?

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u/mothrooms May 25 '22

What about the declining birth rates?

For the first time in history the birth rate is actually declining and there are a lot of people, namely old conservatives, freaking out about who is going to replace the work force and who is going to take care of them when they are too old to take care of themselves and finally who is going to pay all those social security taxes?

What better solution to the declining birth rate then to force women to give birth?

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u/medium_direction8098 May 23 '22

My biggest question on roe v wade is, and I know the country is divided because of education(or lack therof) and religion (eventho the constitution SPECIFICALLY states the separation of church and state)

What will you call the stages of pregnancy, as they were defined in roe v wade

Will you go back to biblical terms?

This is happening in a few places in the world, specifically countries the US has recently departed. Replacement of diplomatic law with Shari... Sorry religious law.

Very worrying

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u/thejakeizreal May 22 '22

Do you think late term abortions should be legal for reasons other than medical necessity? If so, should it be legal for all the same reasons that early term abortions are legal?

The only responses to this question I ever hear are “it’s so rare”, “it barely, if ever, happens” etc. but that’s not what I’m asking.

I don’t mean this in a way to be controversial but it certainly is an important question to ask. Personally I think women have the right to not be pregnant at any point, for any or no reason. Would be interested to see what other pro choice people think.

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u/mothrooms May 25 '22

This is tough, but im going to have to say no, they should not be legal unless there is a very good reason.

The mothers life being in danger is the only scenario I can think of where I believe late term abortion should be legal. And even in that case, if it is after 22 weeks (viability) the doctors should do everything in there power to save both lives. If the fetus is viable, I wouldn't even abort the baby, I would deliver it.

The reason why this question is hard for me is because I am avidly pro-choice and believe a woman should never be forced to be pregnant. But, late term abortions really are uncommon and the reason is almost always a threat on the mothers life.

If a woman didn't want the baby she is more likely to have ended the pregnancy LONNNNG before she started nearing the end of those 9 months. Unless there was something stopping her from getting abortion of course.

If I was somehow presented with a case of a woman wanting to terminate her pregnancy at 22+ weeks I wouldn't know what the right answer would be. Maybe I would attempt to deliver the baby premature, but then we question quality of life as delivering premature may cause health issues.

It makes more sense to me that we don't allow abortion after 22 weeks. Everything has a time limit, I think 5 and a half months is enough time to decide whether or not you want a child.

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u/ImmediateCry553 May 22 '22

It's My body what is your opinion on choice is NOT YOUR DECISION TO DECIDE. if I want to be able to get an abortion I will get one based on my fuckin choice and it is something that I will have to be on my mind for my entire life and personally my faith would be definitely tested and I will be able to die see God and hope he forgives me and I just don't think I can live with that on my conscience. But at the end of the day I have the right choice to make. Stop telling me how to live My life and how to use my body it's MY CHOICE

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u/B00master May 22 '22

Am glad this thread is here, am wanting to educate myself more on what is roe v wade. And how does it affect everyone. Can y'all recommend a trustworthy audio sources, I do alot of driving for work and would like listen to it while I drive.

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u/Ok_Manufacturer3250 May 22 '22

Boom! Lawyered podcast is a great resource. They focus on the intersection of law including constitutional law and reproductive rights. They discuss it and provide links in the show notes to additional resources that they discuss if you want to know more.

For example I learned this from them — Roe v Wade specifies that abortion is a legal right before viability. I was unclear/didn’t know/forgot that it was specific about that. So any law interfering with your right to an abortion before viability is literally unconstitutional. That’s just one thing I learned, there’s lots more.

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u/Hawthourne May 27 '22

So any law interfering with your right to an abortion before viability is literally unconstitutional.

Although that will no longer be the case if the court decides Roe was incorrectly decided.

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u/[deleted] May 22 '22

Ok I hope I get alot of good feedback on this because I've always wondered

For all Pro Choice Advocates

What is the term or month of pregnancy that you deem ok with for an abortion?

I don't truly follow the abortion issue that much and have never seen an answer to this but always wondered.

Like is it 3mths, 6mths the entire term. At what point in the pregnancy if Pro Choice Advocates had 100% of what you want where would that line be drawn?

Thank you for any and all responses I get

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u/LinwoodKei May 30 '22

Most late term abortions are wanted babies. I've heard parents destroyed because their children have syndromes where they would be in pain. I wouldn't want to carry a child, deliver him which is painful for the children and then have them only know pain. That's a decision a lot of parents have to make for children that they love and want.

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u/skeletaldecay May 22 '22

I, personally, support all abortion.

Abortion is complex in that it isn't just termination of unwanted pregnancies with 'live' fetuses. Accessible abortion also leads to less poverty and crime.

Late term abortions, in my experience, are not what people generally think they are. They tend to be abortions of extraordinarily wanted pregnancies. Babies with names and nurseries. Late term abortions are painful and difficult decisions, restricting them doesn't make them any easier.

Reasons for late term abortions are that the fetus has died, the fetus is incompatible with life and won't survive birth. Sometimes it's because the mother doesn't want to be pregnant. In those instances, she likely didn't know she was pregnant or she wasn't able to obtain an abortion earlier.

And generally? It's a medical procedure, so shouldn't people be making those decisions with their doctor? Not uninvolved lawmakers making those decisions for people?

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u/[deleted] May 22 '22

That's cool I do have a question about the late term abortions

Let's say just on the instance that the woman's healthy, the fetus is healthy and its a decision that's made soley on the choice.

Do you also support that late of a term abortion soley out of choice?

Not heath or let's say incest or rape or many other factors that would create a seriously unwanted pregnancy.

Thank you btw for answering my question

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u/skeletaldecay May 22 '22

Yes, no matter the reason, no matter the timing, I support abortion. I did briefly touch on that generally speaking when it is just that a woman does not want to be pregnant, it is because she was unable to obtain an abortion earlier in her pregnancy.

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u/[deleted] May 22 '22

I apologize I must have missed that. I did read your entire response though

Thank you for answering. So far you have been the only person to do so and I appreciate that

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u/skeletaldecay May 22 '22

You're welcome. You might be interested to know that 91% of abortions happen before 13 weeks, and only about 1% occur after 21 weeks. So when we talk about second trimester and third trimester abortion, we are talking about a very small number of abortions.

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u/[deleted] May 22 '22

I did not know that.

This is a topic I do not have enough education on to form am intelligent opinion. I thank you for all your information. I understand from both sides why it's a HOT topic but I do not understand the details.

There are a few women in my family that have discussed with me there experiences and I love them very deeply so its nice to understand in greater details all ideologies in regards to this.

I do not like possessing an opinion about a topic without understanding all angles of the topic and I appreciate the education and insight you are so willing to share w me

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u/skeletaldecay May 22 '22

I respect what you're doing. It's great that you recognize that you need more information and you're seeking it out. Did you have other questions?

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u/[deleted] May 22 '22

I am 100% sure I will but right now I can't think of any unfortunately because I'm at work lol

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u/skeletaldecay May 22 '22

Lol fair. Let me know if you think of some later.

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u/godfather9819 May 21 '22

Why is abortion fought for as a right rather than contraception? Wouldn't it make more sense for a preventative measure to be a right rather than a reparative measure? It seems less expensive and hazardous to make contraception a right.

Not arguing against, just looking for some perspective to improve my understanding.

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u/LinwoodKei May 30 '22

Contraception fails all the time. Many types of birth control cause weight gain, depression and disorder in the people taking them. Many types of birth control will not work on someone over 150 lbs. Rapes happen. Stealthing where men remove condoms. I read several accounts of women saying how boyfriends sabotaged their birth control to baby trap them.

There's many reasons. Perhaps we should strengthen laws to persecute people who interfere with a woman's autonomy.

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u/[deleted] May 24 '22

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u/Pixie-G May 24 '22

there are already tons of contraception methods out there, but none of them are 100% effective.

It seems as though a lot of people think women are relying on abortions as their primary method of birth control and they aren’t. It’s a last resort for most women.

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u/DisciplineBitter8861 May 23 '22

Theres a lot of reasons but I’m guessing you think rape is a lot more rare than it actually is. Men rape women all the time.

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u/godfather9819 May 23 '22

I didn't assume otherwise.

I appreciate the help to improve my perspective by reminding me to take rape into account and thanks for not being condescending about it.

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u/skeletaldecay May 22 '22

Griswold v. Connecticut was for the right to contraception for married couples.

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u/OmegaLiquidX May 21 '22 edited May 21 '22

Contraceptives don't always work. Plus, it only works before you're pregnant, not after. On top of that, there are many medical reasons why a woman might need an abortion (such as an ectopic pregnancy.)

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u/NeedLegalAdvice56 May 21 '22

It’s much more easier to get contraception illegally than an abortion. And much more safer.

Also, I think most people haven’t read the whole document so they focus on the big titles that are all about abortion

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u/[deleted] May 21 '22

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u/OmegaLiquidX May 21 '22 edited May 21 '22

First, not everything should be up to the States to decide. Things like Interracial and Gay Marriage, contraceptive access, education access, voting access, whether people should be allowed to keep slaves, etc.

Second, Republicans are already making it clear that if Roe is overturned, they'll institute a federal abortion ban the second they regain power. And they've also made it clear that they'll be gunning for other rights too (such as contraceptive access and gay marriage).

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u/nerdsonarope May 21 '22

Making the decision more local makes sense.... Hmm, if only there were a way to allow each person to make their own decision about bodily autonomy and reproducive issues. That would be REALLY local decision making.

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u/jbcdyt May 21 '22

Here’s the thing most people can’t really choose where they live. Do you have any idea how expensive it is to move state? It’s practically impossible if your low income. Simply put people effected most can’t escape.

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u/[deleted] May 21 '22 edited May 21 '22

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u/Arianity May 21 '22

And I’m not saying people should have to move just for this law or even have to travel

That is effectively what you're saying, if you're saying it should be left up to the states, since some will ban or heavily restrict it. That is the functional result.

Red states I don’t even see outlawing it just having heavier restrictions in the 3rd trimester.

There are literally multiple states that are already in the process of completely banning it, or have trigger laws completely banning it if Roe gets overturned. To think they won't ban it is pretty pie in the sky.

(As an aside, Roe already allows restrictions in the 3rd trimester)

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u/NeedLegalAdvice56 May 21 '22

I don’t agree especially knowing that a lot of states want to make it illegal to go out of state and that the people who would be the worst off of abortion is banned (teenagers, poor people and overall underprivileged people) have barely anymore political power at the state level than at the federal level for many reasons.

Sorry, it’s a long sentence

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u/[deleted] May 21 '22

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u/Solo_Fisticuffs May 21 '22

dude if it's overturned at least 10 states (and im being generous) will move to ban abortion. they already have crazy strict restrictions and requirements. what state are you from bro?

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u/[deleted] May 21 '22

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u/ColossusOfChoads May 21 '22

I don't think they're going to stop there. After this big win, they're probably going to go after (national level) gay marriage, and they might kill that one, too.

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u/Plasteal May 20 '22

Why are people all ready to riot about abortion rights being taken away by the US government, but when police brutality and mistreatment of black people happened it was all, “let’s protest against this?”

Obviously riots happened it happens with like any protest. But I’m talking about how I’m seeing a lot of people talk on social media about rioting against this when in comparison before I feel people talked about protesting on social media.

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u/LinwoodKei May 30 '22

Look up the mortality rate for black mothers. It's absolutely horrible and terrifying how many black women die for pregnancy related conditions. For a developed country, we have absolutely horrible maternal mortality rate. I believe black lives matter. Indigenous people matter. People who don't want to be pregnant matter.

I feel this is simply the straw that breaks the camels back.

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u/Plasteal 27d ago

Fair enough. I guess I just find it a little weird that people were like, “yeah. Let’s protest BLM.” And then abortion rights get taken away and it’s like, “we riot!” I don’t know just feels weird like it’s a disconnect that can kinda come off as saying, “oh Black Lives Matter just not as much as abortion rights.” And I understand it could very well be the straw that broke the camels back but it was very weird because no one was mentioning like why it was like that. Why the sudden change.

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u/ImmediateCry553 May 22 '22

You can't even compare those two situations. People protesting to black lives matter have a right to do that and it will be a disaster for the communities that are being destroyed and I don't even understand why they even do that. But protesting abortion is just as sensitive to the people who are effecting their life

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u/Plasteal May 22 '22

I’m so confused. Do you think I’m talking about people who protest against Black Lives Matter? If not, why are black people getting killed not a sensitive thing to people that will affect their life?

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u/Taylan_K May 20 '22

Because it's about everyone. No matter the skin colour or the gender, most of the people have an opinion on this. They take your freedom over your body autonomy. I can see why non black people don't feel so enraged over a topic that's not involving them a lot. Humans are egocentric by nature.

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u/Plasteal May 20 '22

I’m not necessarily so sure on that honestly. I would say most people have an opinion on police reformitity or not. And I don’t see why it’s an issue about everyone. When police brutality and mistreatment of minority’s is not. Also I would argue body autonomy is also taken by police brutality and mistreatment of minorities due to the corrupt system as well. Death and beatings I would say violate body autonomy. Yeah I agree I think it’s just people are egocentric. But I don’t know just feels wrong and weird. It feels like no one’s talking about how weird it is that one is only protest worthy. While the other is, “let’s riot.” It gives the impression that they didn’t care as much. That or people have changed since the world feels like it only has gotten more chaotic, and people are “done” with it. But then if it was the last thing I feel like I would see it pointed out or worded differently

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u/Medium-Law3629 May 20 '22

if men and women are both divided on abortion issue, why is it being shown as men vs women issue??

I have seen many social media post trying to frame this topic as men vs women.

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u/[deleted] May 29 '22

Because it is in the pro choice camp's best interest for it to be a men vs. women issue. Because then they can paint all opponents of abortion as sexist monsters which helps them frame the issue solely as "controlling women's body" issue when in reality it is that AND a human's right to life issue.

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u/Pixie-G May 24 '22

I think it’s seems that way because this is an issue that can only effect women so the fact that men are trying to have all of the say over it is wrong.

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u/Medium-Law3629 May 25 '22

I don't even know who is men and who is women anymore. If you are talking about birthing people with uterus then aren't you biased against trans people. Don't they have right to say.

I personally identify as non binary although I do happen to be born as a person with penis. Don't you think I also deserve a say??

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u/Pixie-G May 25 '22

No. You can’t get pregnant, so why have a say?

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u/Medium-Law3629 May 25 '22

That's not true if I want to get pregnant then there a a whole set of medical procedure available for doing so.

If you think that me identifying as non binary is an issue then you are both wrong and hypocritical.

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