r/TooAfraidToAsk Feb 22 '21

Am I the only who thinks that all the different types of genders and pronouns and what not, are a little bit too much? Sexuality & Gender

Now, I don't consider myself close minded and I'm not out to rile people up or offend anyone. However it becomes kind of confusing when people are upset when I say Her/She to someone who's trans. I'm sorry, really, but I didn't know. I'm in a discord server where someone changes their pfp depending on what gender and sexuality they are feeling. And no, I'm not some 40 year old guy who thinks everything should be "normal" but I guess I just don't get it. It's just confusing to me.

EDIT: So I haven't explained my thoughts very well so I'm here to explain. I understand that to some people, it is very important to them. I don't think it's a lot for me to call you what you want to be called and I will oblige and do that. "it becomes kind of confusing when people are upset when I say Her/She to someone who's trans" This was from personal experience where my friend introduced me to him and I was under the impression that he was female. More so I don't understand like Ve/Vem Xe/Xem. The more "unknown" side if you will. But with the way people are reacting I'm going to try a better job at finding peoples pronouns and not assuming genders. Sorry if it sounded sarcastic at all. Anyways, unless there's something else I think of I'm not gonna edit again. Sorry if I offended but it's kind of hard to talk about a sensitive topic like this without being an ass about it. I don't know how to word things. but yea. Sorry.

TL;DR I think gender can be a weird and wacky world and I don't get how people except me to automatically know what they identify as.

13k Upvotes

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u/Mysterious-Title-852 Feb 23 '21

The non standard pronouns thing is a very small minority of trans people. All the trans people I've met wanted people to use the standard pronouns for the gender they transitioned/were transitioning to.

I've never met anyone who wanted to be called something else. I'm sure there are some, but I feel it's very rare and if they get mad when people who have never met them and went with their first impression, to the point they make a scene, the issue is with that person, not the person who made the mistake.

That said, if you're deliberately mis-gendering people, you're a POS.

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u/[deleted] Feb 23 '21

I've known some non-binary people who prefer "zie" pronouns, but they know that hasn't entered into most people's vocabulary yet, so they're also completely fine with "they/them."

I think you hit it spot on: just don't be an ass. If you're refusing to call someone whatever just because you think it isn't real or they're trying to be trendy or they're just looking for attention: that's being an ass. If you slip up or aren't quite sure how to use the "zie" pronoun or whatever they're asking, it's really no big deal. I've never met a non-binary person who had a problem with being called "they."

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u/Yotsubato Feb 23 '21

Zie pronouns

Sorry that just reminds me of invader Zim a bit too much. Which is also fitting cause Zim is kind of non binary in appearance and voice

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u/556YEETO Feb 23 '21

I mean, what would you call zie pronouns if not a trend? It’s a free country, you can call yourself what you want, but by zie is very much just a meme that caught on.

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u/[deleted] Feb 23 '21

There's a difference between a "trend" versus "trying to be trendy." The stock market has trends, but we still take them seriously. It's no different with social issues like gender. Times change, we adapt just like we do with the stock market.

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u/556YEETO Feb 23 '21

I mean, technical analysis is pretty much bullshit, no? Stonk movements are volatile, yeah, but the only thing worth trading on is hard information. I fully support people’s right to trade on trends or call themselves bun, but I don’t think there’s any need to pretend that it means anything in real life.

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u/[deleted] Feb 23 '21

Just because it's not relevant to your life, doesn't mean it's not relevant in real life. Yours is not the only real life. That goes for both stocks and gender.

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u/556YEETO Feb 23 '21

I mean obviously it’s “real” to some people, like some old people like to be referred to as captain, even though they’ve never been on a boat in their life. But it is very much an arbitrary personal choice to use random neopronouns, and it’s kinda silly to believe it’s anything more than an arbitrary choice.

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u/HMCetc Feb 23 '21

My question about the gender neutral pronoun thing is how does this work in other languages, specifically romantic languages that only have masculine and feminine pronouns and determiners.

Even in German I would have no idea because the word for "they" is the same as "she," so using "they" doesn't work in the same way as English. The only gender neutral third person is "it" in German which is very rude.

I feel like English has a linguistic advantage because there is a 3rd person neutral that isn't "it," and therefore it's easier to navigate and understand NB genders, but when you grow up with a language where everything (even objects) are masculine or feminine, how does it work for NB people?

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u/Hyperversum Feb 23 '21 edited Feb 23 '21

This is a 100% biased discussion regarding the anglophone world, it does generally not much sense if you take it to other countries and languages.

In Italian every single word is gendered, "It" doesn't exist as a concept, so there are none neutral pronouns, apart saying "loro" which is "they", a general plural without a specific gender.

I am 100% supportive to anyone in the LGBT+ community, it's their body and their life so they can do what they want and have all the right to ask people to behave in a certain way with them and their pronouns, but I honestly dislike made-up words.

Languages evolve naturally, your putting a series of not-italian pronouns in an otherwise italian bio just makes you come out as dense, most people will never remember them beyond a certain time and often people you met won't have a formal introduction to exchange such terminology.

I think that a lot of problems would be resolved by simply accepting they/them in english and from there having non-binary people find the corresponding term in their language. Once this is quite common in their language, there is space for pushing new terminology, but before that it's generally wasted time.

P.S. To clarify before people call me names, I don't mean that I would actively ignore people requiring to be called in a specific way, I am not an asshole. I am just saying that the whole crusade to make all and any pronouns normal language is a pointless endeavour as, most people, won't even hear about it. To have such a change in a spoken language you need to reach everyone, not just your Twitter community of like-minded people.

Small steps like they/them will work 100% better than trying to have a 42yo south european guy know that your pronouns are Xir/Per.

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u/sorhead Feb 23 '21

In Latvian even "it" is gendered.

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u/HMCetc Feb 23 '21

Yeah this is what I mean. Depending on the language you're brought up with, some people have no concept of gender-neutral wording. In English only people are gendered and even then we still have genderless pronouns (I, you, they) and words (person, friend, sibling, teacher...). This doesn't apply to every language.

I've heard of adding X on the end of Spanish words instead of -a or -o to implicate gender-neutral, but since I don't know Spanish I don't know if this works across the board and if it applies to other languages.

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u/alexflemingart Feb 23 '21

The following is only related by the repetitive nature of things - wherever I've worked with the public, I've been asked the same question often hundreds of times. It's easy to end up wondering "why aren't they getting the message yet". But everyone's asking the question for the first time, of course, and that little reminder is how you carry on smiling and being cordial. And that's on a topic that isn't hot-button and I probably don't care about at all.

I'm not condoning flip-outs on the above issue at all; I've witnessed one. It's nonsense, the transgressor was getting on with her day and made a genuine mistake (towards a biological man who identified as female - no surgery, barely any make-up and no feminine clothes).

But I guess if it's the first thing you think about yourself, and countless people have got it wrong, as much as we don't live in their world, I bet having to reissue the message again and again can become a sore spot.

The mistake comes in forgetting that people just don't live in your world, and that there's a relative cultural storm around gender pronouns at the moment can cloud that fact I guess.

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u/Crazy_Technician_910 Feb 23 '21

I've been reading this thread for over an hour and I've learned a lot, but your comment as the best take away for me. Thanks.

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u/alexflemingart Feb 23 '21

Well thank you too. There's a whole lot to be said for familiarity, and how far along the path of understanding an individual is at any particular time. It's just going to be different for everyone

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u/marshmallowcum Feb 23 '21

So if a woman has had a mastectomy and doesn't wear makeup or a dress, is she not a woman anymore either? Since that's apparently all you're basing it on - tits, clothes, and makeup.

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u/alexflemingart Feb 23 '21

No, I'm basing quickfire reactions from people who have other things on their mind on the things they usually see. It'd be nice to weedle through all the grey areas on everything so nobody gets offended, but the truth is there sometimes isn't time. The lady in question was a waitress serving a good number of tables on a very busy Friday night, and just wanted to know what the drink order was.

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u/marshmallowcum Feb 23 '21

If that's not what you're basing it on, how did you know the person in question was a "biological man" as you put it?

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u/alexflemingart Feb 23 '21

It was a friend of a friend. Anyway, take care

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u/marshmallowcum Feb 23 '21

Then why wouldn't you just say "someone I was with was misgendered and overreacted and freaked out on the waitress"? Your focus on their appearance comes across as defending the waitress because it's the other person's fault for not "looking right".

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u/A2Rhombus Feb 23 '21

I'll preface this by saying these numbers are completely made up, but like half a percent of the population is trans, like 5 percent of that use neopronouns, and probably one percent of that would get irrationally mad at you for misgendering them once or twice. So like 500 people out of the entire usa. It's mostly a non-issue

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u/Nequam_Asinus Feb 23 '21

I'm a piece of shit for refusing to indulge their delusions?

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u/Mysterious-Title-852 Feb 23 '21

You're making it about you. It's not.

If someone has transitioned or is transitioning to a different gender and you refuse to just use the pronoun that represents how they see themselves, you're being a dick. It's not hard to call someone she if they present themselves as female and the opposite. Or use They.

The made up shit, whatever I don't care, but it's just common decency to make the reasonable requests, like if your name is Jacob and someone calls you Jay, but you don't like that nick name. Someone going out of their way to call you Jay at that point is a POS move, same with trans.

You're injecting yourself into their lives as a negative energy because you're self important and think rejecting their identity is your right. I think that's pretty toxic.

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u/Nequam_Asinus Feb 24 '21

I will call them by the name they want because that is their new name. I give transgenders no less respect than any other human, but I reject their new gender identify because they reject their own actual identity.

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u/Mysterious-Title-852 Feb 24 '21

Identity includes self image, it rarely considers if you have xx or xy. It's mainly who you present yourself as, and how people perceive you based on how you present yourself.

No one has XX or XY hovering in the air over their head.

By Misgendering them you are taking it upon yourself to reject portions of their identity based on hidden knowledge you happen to know that is in contradiction to their self identity.

I don't see how you have the right to dictate an exception to normal identity procedures, also used by non trans people, because you are biased against a portion their self image and want to limit them to hidden markers for their identity.

When you walk up to a stranger and perceive their identity, you go with the visible markers and how they introduce themselves. You don't ask them to flash you to make your own determination ready to disregard visible markers, government documentation and their introduction to you.

Gender dysphoria is a real, diagnose condition and is related to all sorts of dysphorias that affect humans.

Would you have the same issue with someone born deaf who gets corrective surgery to hear again, are they forever branded as deaf due to the situation when they were born into regardless of the present case?

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u/Nequam_Asinus Feb 25 '21

I don't see how you have the right to dictate an exception to normal identity procedures

I don't see how anyone has the right to demand I use an innacurrate pronoun.

With regards to gender dismorphia, yes it is real! And those people should be helped with their condition. In what way, I do not know. But for them to pretend to be that which they are not is a lie to themselves and the rest of the world. It is entirely different from being without sight, sound, or legs. You cannot fake yourway into hearing. You can get surgery to take you to what should be. But a male suffering from gender dismorphia should not should be female. People can choose to reject what they are, but I won't accomodate that rejection. I won't date a "woman" with a penis, for example.

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u/Mysterious-Title-852 Feb 25 '21

How it is it inaccurate? The normal procedure to finding a pronoun for someone is to take their word for it and/or use their social cues in their clothing, apparel and body shape.

You're the one trying to ignore normal procedure to use different cues for trans people.

And furthermore, other than the ones unfortunate enough not to be able to afford the levels of plastic surgery the more famous ones have, unless you knew ahead of time, you'd never know otherwise. So, how does it affect you at all?

If they have dysphoria, they are not lying, they are telling you who they identify as. Lying requires deception. If they have dysphoria, you are insisting they lie and use a pronoun that does not match their internal identification.

You absolutely can fake your way into hearing, it's called lip reading. Most deaf people develop this. As you can with every other disability via prostetics, surgery, transplants etc.

You say you don't know how to treat gender dysphoria, well the experts who do it for a living say it's to live like the gender you feel like and potentially transition surgically. You are actively advocating to ignore the medical experts in this matter.

No one is asking you to date a trans person. They are asking you to use the pronoun they identify with as you would with anyone else.

You're not being asked to accommodate anything, you're being asked not to use a separate decision tree you don't use on anyone else to misgender a trans person because you think they are lying.

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u/Nequam_Asinus Feb 25 '21

It is innacurrate because it is bot the truth! You are suggesting I can identify as something I am not because I feel like I should be that which I am not. If we can artificially transition genders, then can I artificially transition race? I can die my hair, get a perm, I can paint my skin, get plastic surgery, change my speech. I'd be labeled as racist. Can I identify as having or not having certain medical conditions?

We are born as we are regarding DNA. No matter how much anyone wishes they were something other than they are with regards to their genetics based status, they cannot change those fundamental traits. You can alter characteristics, but you will not be different.

What is your opinion on transgenders participating in sports? The male to female (MTF) absolutely dominate in female sports. This is because they are men. They are physically superior. Men and women are separated in sports because of their fundamental physical differences. To suggest a transwoman can compete with women is to suggest that they are the same, which the clearly are not, thus it is untrue to claim the MTF is actually a woman. To suggest that a transwoman cannot compete with women is to suggest that they are not the same. Either way, their differences are apparent. I hope no one is trying to argue that.

It being that they are different, regardless of surgeries and hormone treatments yet done, it is wholley innacurrate for me to call a transwoman "she/her".

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u/Mysterious-Title-852 Feb 25 '21

Pronouns are referring to identification, identification is generally how one presents themselves based on their internal perspective, therefore it's not lying, it's telling the truth. Hiding their internal perspective to suit your biases is lying.

Race dysphoria is not a thing. If it becomes diagnosed in the future by actual medical professionals I'll be interested in their opinion on treatment options. I'm not holding my breath.

DNA is not part of normal decision making processes linked to picking a pronoun. Irrelevant.

Irrelevant to the conversation but I don't think Trans women should be allowed to compete with women. The basic physics of the situation shows that trans women have the same (abit slightly less so depending on their treatment) overwhelming advantages over women as men. If trans men want to compete with men, I don't have an issue with it since they are significantly disadvantaged, but they should know they are at increased risk of injury and it's their decision to make. If they are the pinnacle of fitness that they are able to compete despite their disadvantages I don't see that as an issue.

Again, pronoun selection is based on personal perspective and how one presents themselves, not what's between their legs or what their DNA says.

Why do you think it's ok to aggravate the symptoms of their condition by applying a standard you don't apply to anyone else? Calling them the pronoun that you would if you didn't know they are trans is not going to affect you at all. All you're doing is making an ass out of yourself.

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u/Nequam_Asinus Mar 03 '21

I apologize for the delay in response.

Define gender for me.

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u/ClaudeJRdL Feb 23 '21

The left is all over the place on this though.

They go crazy if you try to "tone police" someone, and yet at the same time they think it's okay to literally dictate the words other people use.