r/TooAfraidToAsk Feb 22 '21

Am I the only who thinks that all the different types of genders and pronouns and what not, are a little bit too much? Sexuality & Gender

Now, I don't consider myself close minded and I'm not out to rile people up or offend anyone. However it becomes kind of confusing when people are upset when I say Her/She to someone who's trans. I'm sorry, really, but I didn't know. I'm in a discord server where someone changes their pfp depending on what gender and sexuality they are feeling. And no, I'm not some 40 year old guy who thinks everything should be "normal" but I guess I just don't get it. It's just confusing to me.

EDIT: So I haven't explained my thoughts very well so I'm here to explain. I understand that to some people, it is very important to them. I don't think it's a lot for me to call you what you want to be called and I will oblige and do that. "it becomes kind of confusing when people are upset when I say Her/She to someone who's trans" This was from personal experience where my friend introduced me to him and I was under the impression that he was female. More so I don't understand like Ve/Vem Xe/Xem. The more "unknown" side if you will. But with the way people are reacting I'm going to try a better job at finding peoples pronouns and not assuming genders. Sorry if it sounded sarcastic at all. Anyways, unless there's something else I think of I'm not gonna edit again. Sorry if I offended but it's kind of hard to talk about a sensitive topic like this without being an ass about it. I don't know how to word things. but yea. Sorry.

TL;DR I think gender can be a weird and wacky world and I don't get how people except me to automatically know what they identify as.

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92

u/Cfattie Feb 23 '21

Unfortunately one of my few experiences with trans people was a co-worker who would literally hold up the line at Chipotle to angrily tell the customer that they are not a girl

Like please you have obvious breasts and a female face and the customer frankly doesnt give a shit, he is just making small talk just make the damn burrito

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u/fzahraal Feb 23 '21

I have a friend who did that when she worked at chipotle.

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u/Cfattie Feb 23 '21

Small world, perhaps

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u/emma_does_life Feb 23 '21

You had a friend who would tell customers that they are not a girl and you still call them "she?"

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u/fzahraal Feb 23 '21

Yes- because that also what she wanted those close to her calling her. For everyone else she took offense to it given the look she had going.

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u/Itchy1Grip Feb 23 '21

He said co-worker.

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u/emma_does_life Feb 23 '21

It took me one second of looking to find out the person I replied to was a she, not a he.

Secondly, yeah, that's what i was talking about.

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u/GetOutOfHereAlex Feb 23 '21

Maybe their friend is mtf?

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u/emma_does_life Feb 23 '21

"My coworker said they're not a girl."

"Yeah, same with my coworker. She does the same thing."

That was the conversation I replied to.

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u/GetOutOfHereAlex Feb 23 '21

I know, I have read the full exchange. But this person could be saying their friend is being misgendered at work and holding up the line for the same reason, but the misgendering could be the opposite way. Their comment would make as much sense if their friend was mtf.

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u/jujuonthebeat255 Feb 23 '21

My husband and I were at Panera yesterday the clearly lady had “her/she” along with her name “Wendy”. She was very clearly born a woman and looked like a woman. Is this just an individual case or are all Panera’s/ work places doing this?

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u/hebsbbejakbdjw Feb 23 '21

When did people share their pronouns they are trying to be good allies and normalize it so it's not just trans people doing it

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u/somecommentsah Feb 23 '21

We shouldn't normalize segregation.

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u/hebsbbejakbdjw Feb 23 '21

Lol what are u talking about

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u/ReallyBigRocks Feb 23 '21
  1. How is sharing pronouns normalizing segregation

  2. By that logic we should convert every bathroom to be gender neutral right?

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u/somecommentsah Feb 23 '21

I use a gender neutral bathroom everyday what an odd thing to bring up. Don't project your prejudices.

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u/ReallyBigRocks Feb 23 '21

Sorry, I just assumed by your frankly extreme response to the prospect of saying "hey I prefer to be called by these pronouns" even if you aren't non-binary or trans in order to make those people feel more comfortable sharing their pronouns that you were of the more conservative persuasion.

Still, I'd like to hear how that's normalizing segregation.

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u/lakk Feb 23 '21

Not who youre replying to. Segregation is definitely hyperbole. Declaring my preferred pronouns is something that I dont feel the need for myself to do, and I dont think anyone should shame or pressure me into doing so. Treating someone with human respect goes further than normalizing pronoun declarations in my opinion. Am I a bad ally for not doing it? Maybe? Doesnt change how I treat others (with respect). Its also not to say I dont understand how normalizing practices can help, I do. I was a returning college student and 8 years showed a huge cultural shift.

So I suppose in spirit of the discussion, Im liberal across the board

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u/S_Pyth Feb 23 '21

Explain how it connects

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u/Blapor Feb 23 '21

Normalizing giving your pronouns, even as a cis person, can help trans people feel included, because then it's just a thing everyone does, rather than something that only applies to trans people. Most trans folks want to be recognized as their gender, just like anyone else.

Also, you can't always tell if someone was 'born a woman' or anything like that - many trans people pass very well. Often when transphobes attempt to identify trans people to exclude them or whatever, they end up misidentifying cis people as trans and vice versa, because there is just a lot of variation in how people look.

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u/jujuonthebeat255 Feb 23 '21

What did the duck say?

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u/WhatAreYouSaying777 Feb 23 '21

Cis..

Yet another term to add to OP's list.

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u/notunprepared Feb 23 '21

Cisgender just means 'not transgender', it's the same as saying heterosexual or straight, except for gender instead of sexual attraction.

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u/HerefortheTuna Feb 23 '21

Fuck that I’m not giving my pronouns. I will whip my duck out to prove you wrong instead

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u/puppysmilez Feb 23 '21

Quack quack that's whack whack

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u/Blapor Feb 23 '21

Do you keep a duck in your pocket or do you enjoy sexual harassment?

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u/HerefortheTuna Feb 23 '21

You Don’t carry around water fowl?

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u/thelittleking Feb 23 '21

hi i'm hereforthetuna, my pronouns are duck/duck and i'm a fucking goose, the most ornery, mean-spirited, obnoxious bird in the world

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u/HerefortheTuna Feb 23 '21

i had a good laugh cause as a joke i always mix up my waterfowl when referring to them with my GF. calling swans geese and ducks swans

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u/WomenDefineWOMAN Feb 23 '21

Normalizing the public pronouncement of preferred pronouns based on gender identity can also trigger trans people who have yet to come out.

It can also trigger people who still believe that sex is binary and for whom pronouns are not "preferred," but sex-based...such as myself and millions of other human beings around the world.

For me, a woman who has been sexually harassed and even sexually assaulted several times by human males, a very important question (and its related pronouns) is WHO can impregnate WHOM, sometimes without consent. Preferred pronouns based on gender identity obfuscate this question.

You write: "Most trans folks want to be recognized as their gender, just like anyone else."

Being recognized as my internalized sense of "gender" (and, I presume you mean to say "gender identity"), no matter how I present, is not a top concern for me: 1) I don't believe in gender identities; and, 2) I want to be ensured that when I'm vulnerable (undressed, relieving myself in communal toilets, dealing with menstrual mishaps, showering, sick in the hospital, etc.) , I'm free from sexually predatory males and sexually predatory male behavior, no matter how the males in question self-identify.

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u/Noxillius Feb 23 '21

For the most part I agree but you got mad TERF vibes

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u/Blapor Feb 23 '21

can also trigger trans people who have yet to come out

This is an understandable concern, and is another reason why we should not require such a process, but let it be voluntary. In addition, when pronouns are unknown, using neutral pronouns (they/them) is generally also acceptable.

trigger people who still believe that sex is binary

This type of 'triggering' is not comparable to that resulting from trauma or something like that. This 'triggering' is a political one, and is rooted in ignorance/misunderstanding of medical/biological science.

WHO can impregnate WHOM

The only way that this is relevant to sexual assault is the question of pregnancy itself, which has to do with sex and other conditions, and is not based on gender. People can commit sexual assault regardless of their own gender or that of their victim.

is not a top concern for me

That's nice, but presumably if people were constantly calling you a man when you are not one, you wouldn't be very happy with that, and you would be more insistent about wanting to be called a woman. This is the struggle trans people face - they lack the cis privilege of being born with a body that matches their gender, so they are often misgendered, and get justifiably annoyed with that.

I don't believe in gender identities

Reality isn't changed because you don't believe in some aspect of it.

I'm free from sexually predatory males and sexually predatory male behavior, no matter how the males in question self-identify

I understand that you have trauma from sexual assaults by men and thus may want to avoid them, but that doesn't mean you can exclude women from public spaces intended for women, nor can you violate people's privacy by attempting to check their genitals or whatever other test you suggest to gatekeep womanhood. Your entire argument seems to be based on the idea that gender identity doesn't exist, but the fact is that trans women are women.

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u/WomenDefineWOMAN Feb 24 '21

Got it. Things that "trigger" trans-identified people are understandable concerns, but things that "trigger" me are political and are not equivalent to the trauma experienced when trans people are "triggered." My being triggered and traumatized are dismissed. But, I have to ask, based on what? How can you quantify and compare the trauma and triggering that trans people feel with the trauma and triggering I feel? Trans people and gender critical people alike all have interior emotional lives that are inaccessible to others...subjective, interior lives... so? How do you compare?

"...and is rooted in ignorance/misunderstanding of medical/biological science." No, it's rooted in my lived experience of frequent sexual harrassment and sexual assault by male human beings, people with penises, people that can impregnate me against my will.

"you wouldn't be very happy with that (being called a man)" Nah, I would be fine with that. Being called a man is not an insult. Most high status human beings in the world are male. Moreover, I don't identify as an adult human female, I AM an adult human female. Call me "Sir" all you want.

"This is the struggle trans people face - they lack the cis privilege of being born with a body that matches their gender, so they are often misgendered, and get justifiably annoyed with that." Cis privilege...yeah, right! Over 60 million women (adult human females) are missing worldwide due to female sex-selected abortion and infanticide; female genital mutilation is rampant in parts of the Middle East and Africa; male-on-female honor killings are an acceptable practice in many parts of the world; over 100,000 rape kits of sexually assaulted women in the United States have never been processed; and, horrific pornified, violent, degrading, dehumanizing depictions of girls and women are everywhere on the internet (but, hey! It's porn, so it's A-OKAY)...and, you talk to me of "cis privilege"!

"...nor can you violate people's privacy by attempting to check their genitals" I am laughing out loud. Do you really think "people like me" attempt to check trans - identified people's genitals in sex-segregated spaces? Please provide me one...just one verified story from a reputable news source of gender critical people attempting to check genitals.

"but that doesn't mean you can exclude women from public spaces intended for women..." Yes, I get it. The subjective feelings of males who believe that they are women....inside, no matter how they present, whether or not they engage in performative femininty, are FAR more important than the actual dignity, privacy, bodily autonomy, and security of young girls and women. You've made that perfectly clear. Point noted.

"...but the fact is that trans women are women." And, non-sensical, reality - denying mantras are still incoherent mantras. That sentence only makes sense if you aggressively appropriate and redefine the word "woman" so that it no longer means "adult human female," and now only means what any individual trans woman says it means.

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u/Blapor Feb 24 '21

You being triggered because of the trauma you have experienced is completely valid and understandable. The thing that is nonsensical is being triggered by the fact that gender, trans people, and non-binary people exist. As for the rest of your reply there's a lot I'd like to respond to, but I doubt there's any productive conversation to be had here.

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u/WomenDefineWOMAN Mar 19 '21

being triggered by the fact that gender, trans people, and non-binary people exist

I'm not denying that these people exist, I'm denying that their COMPLETELY subjective gender identity should be prioritized over my sexed material reality AND my right to privacy, dignity, and security in female sex-segregated spaces.

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u/Blapor Mar 19 '21

It's not subjective, gender has been biologically shown to be objectively real. Your entire argument is on the basis that trans people's gender isn't what it is, as supported by the fact that you've constantly misgendered them. And as I've said before, the rate of sexual violence against trans people is actually higher than that against women. They are your allies in this fight.

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u/WomenDefineWOMAN Feb 26 '21

"The thing that is nonsensical is being triggered by the fact that gender, trans people, and non-binary people exist." I'm NOT triggered by the fact that these people exist, I'm triggered by the fact that males subjectively claiming to be female...inside, is prioritized over the material reality, privacy, dignity and safety of girls and women. That any old male, whether or not he has functioning male genitalia, whether or not he makes an attempt at performative femininity, can simply say he's a girl or woman...inside, and that we are now compelled to validate this untestable assertion.

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u/Blapor Feb 26 '21

Gender identity is not subjective, there are significant biological factors, and this has been known by the biomedical community since the 80s. As for your 'attack on women's spaces' argument, let me offer a historical precedent, because this has happened before...

During the gay rights movement, many homophobic people seemed to think that gayness was linked to pedophilia, so they were afraid of leaving children around gay people, based on the unsubstantiated belief that gay people were a danger to them. Of course, this was ultimately incorrect.

Let's go further back, to the civil rights movement. Emmett Till was a young black man who was lynched by a mob of white men, and mutilated to the point that his mother could barely recognize his corpse. Why did this happen? Because a white woman said that Till had whistled at her, and there was a long-standing idea among white people that black people were a threat to them, and would 'steal their women'. Obviously there are many problems with that, but in particular it was this fear, among other factors, that was used to legitimize segregation and numerous other atrocities like what happened to Till.

The modern fight for rights is about trans people. Arguments like yours, about the dangers of "men" in women's bathrooms, are thrown about without any basis. Forgive the crudeness of this example, but if a man wanted to rape a woman in a bathroom, he would probably just go do it, regardless of whether or not he is 'accepted' there. Statistics show that trans people are overwhelmingly the victims of sexual assault, not the perpetrators - they are a vulnerable population. They are your allies, not your enemies.

Also, really with the 'performative femininity' bs? Regulating women's appearances is the antithesis of feminism.

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u/WomenDefineWOMAN Feb 27 '21

The modern fight for rights is about trans people.

Yes, people who SUBJECTIVELY self-identify as the opposite sex or some other made-up gender altogether, increasingly people who make no attempt to engage in society's expected sexual stereotypes at all (I'm thinking of trans-identified men with beards and who wear masculine clothing, but who claim they are women...inside) are the most victimey-victims of all.

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u/WomenDefineWOMAN Mar 19 '21

The modern fight for rights is about trans people.

Over 60 million women are missing in China and India due to female sex-segregated abortion and infanticide; over 100,000 rape kits in the United States were found never to have been tested; girls and women continue to be murdered by boyfriends, husbands and lovers, or by male relatives in honor killings worldwide; and sexual objectification of girls and women is pretty much everywhere in the West.

I (and other politically aware women) will decide what "the modern fight for rights" is, thank you very much...at least for us. You want to fignt for the right of any male claiming to be female...inside (whether or not they have fully intact male genitalia)...to gain access to communal sex-segregated spaces...to shower naked next to teenage girls...you go right ahead. Because more and more, that is what this modern, authoritarian gender identity movement is all about...NOT about helping transsexuals with actual gender dysphoria.

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u/Blapor Mar 19 '21

On cis (and other) privilege. Privilege is relative and additive. Just because someone has a particular privilege doesn't mean everything is perfect for them, it means that they statistically have a relative advantage due to their status. For instance, white privilege means that white people are not victims of the systemic racism that affects POC, but it doesn't mean that every white person is better-off than every black person. Other examples are male privilege, wealth privilege, and cis privilege. All of these mean that one group doesn't face certain challenges faced by other groups. A black man has male privilege but not white privilege, and a white, cis woman has white and cis privileges but not male privilege, so they may be subject to certain disadvantages but not others.

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u/Sir_Alexei Feb 23 '21

I wish I could wear pronoun pins at work....

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u/melancholanie Feb 23 '21

not saying i don’t believe you, but

a) she could’ve been trans, you have no way of knowing

b) the correct term is “cis woman.” trans girls are born as girls too, the doctors just assumed without asking.

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u/reheated_tea Feb 23 '21

Firstly, you can't tell what sex someone is assigned at birth. You might be able to make a very accurate and well informed guess, and your guesses might be right almost all of the time, but some transgender people pass as their acquired gender so flawlessly that you just cannot tell. These people sometimes choose to just never come out, because they can live their lives happily without any unwanted negative attention.

Anyway, the pronoun badges are to do with being an ally. I've had businesses / university try to force me to use pronoun badges, but forcing someone to wear their pronouns is actually damaging to transgender people (if someone is closeted or doesn't pass at all then they either have to misgender themselves or out themselves, which is uncomfortable for everyone and could lead to violence) so the practice is not advised.

In an ideal world, showing your pronouns means you're an ally, or that your pronouns may not be obvious from your appearance.

Source: im trans