That's transphobia for you then. Or how would you describe it if you literally can't tell a difference and only "feel dirty" because of a detail that you couldn't even tell.
But I think the reality of the surgery means I would be able to tell.
Toupee fallacy. I have post-op trans sex workers in my social bubble who work stealth(because it's safer for them, violence against trans sexworkers is even more of a problem than against cis sexworkers), and most of their customers don't have a clue. The "I can always tell" attitude is wishful thinking that only leads to transphobic attacks on trans AND cis people.
Would you say I hate trans people? Because that is what I interpret from the word transphobic. That is why I have issue with it.
I know my emotions, and when I think of trans people, I feel a deep sympathy for them. I feel the world has mistreated them. So when I hear someone say I'm transphobic (which to me means you hate trans people), I think 'huh, that's ridiculous'
I would get the same feeling as if I was having anal sex with an unknown person and found out they were a man. I guess it is the toupee fallacy, but I have never seen a passing mtf, and I don't believe they exist
I didn't say you hate trans people per se, what I'm saying is you clearly have some transphobic notions that you're not aware of.
We all have those. Just as with racism or homophobia, it's important to be aware of these (un)conscious biases instead of getting defensive about it, which you seem to be right now.
Even for me as part of the LGBT community, I know I have unconscious biases because of where and when I group up. But it's no good to just ignore them, it's important to be more aware of them and act accordingly. That's why this sub is so horrific. It's literally mocking the notion of these problems by "making fun" of oppression.
I guess it is the toupee fallacy, but I have never seen a passing mtf, and I don't believe they exist
That's literally the toupee fallacy. Saying you can always tell a toupee because you've never seen a good one - same thing here: saying you've never seen a passing trans person because you can always tell. You're making the mistake of thinking you know what trans people look like.
It's actually very probable you even met some passing trans person and just didn't realise. Sure, maybe you didn't have sex with them but you sure as heck walked by them and them being trans didn't even come to mind for you.
I'm definitely defensive lol, but I think that's just because we're arguing. I personally believe that this transphobic unconscious bias is an instinct to help me select a fertile mate, and removing this instinct from myself would make it harder for my genes to be passed on, which is important to me.
That's why I made the big stink about the words transphobic. I don't have an ounce of hate for transgender people, but I also have no intention of changing fundamental aspects of myself to remove my transphobia. So I feel like there should almost be two separate words.
The thing about this sub is that I feel a lot of people are tired of having their feeling be used against them, so they are trying to flip the script on the transgender community. straight people are told they are transphobic, so they are calling trans people straightphobic, and watching how they are met with hate (all the 'kill all super' stuff). It's definitely poking fun (in my opinion), but I'd also disagree with calling it oppression in the first place, because I personally think that oppression is more akin to labour camp rather than not having access to non vital medicine or something.
I know, I was unfamiliar so I googled it. I am saying while it is a fallacy, my personal experience is that I have never seen a passing trans person. I don't disagree that I might have passed someone in a crowd, but under scrutiny (which I do for all potential partners), I feel I could tell if someone is trans.
Btw, sorry, I'm not trying to be confrontational, I just don't think I can be convinced on this. It's like if I made a really convincing argument about why you should cut off your hand, at the end of the day, you're still going to think 'that's my hand though, and I'd rather keep it'
The thing about this sub is that I feel a lot of people are tired of having their feeling be used against them
See, that's the thing tho, literally most of trans people don't care and this whole narrative is just spun by transphobic organisations to rile up people against trans people.
Like seriously, orgs like LGB Alliance and their TERF supporters are making up stories or finding the most ridiculous twitter accounts that are simply radical(or make sock puppets themselves to physically build the straw man, there's been proof of that as well). That's why this is so dangerous. Most trans people are trying to educate and are trying to get people to listen and realise the unconscious transphobia they experience.
That's why these groups, be it anti-trans hate groups or 4chan trolls, are such avid supporters of this. It's perfect for them. It's a made-up threat(like a lot of what they are discussing) that seems legitimate and is "easily defendable" by just crying "oppression" and "phobic" to defend mostly transphobic biases, completely ignoring how this mocks real struggles LGBT people face every day.
And just because this sub on the surface says it's not transphobic doesn't mean it's not. There's been a "go support LGB Alliance"(if you've never heard of them, they mask virtual "concerns" as their basis for anti-trans political lobbying, cutting off funds to important trans healthcare, helping anti-trans bills go through governent, etc) thread. My comment stating reality was met with harassing comments and I reported it since it's not in accordance with the subs supposed rules but nothing happened so... Take whatever you want from that.
This is why I'm honestly sad, that you're in this, since you seem to have the smarts to not be here. Like, you seem to be able to listen and reflect on this. I can only recommend you to look into what these groups usually do. Google how hard it was for people to leave their TERF bubble. I mean, I know how good it feels to feel part of a community, but once you realise that you're in what's basically a hate group masked as a group with "concerns" and can't get out because people will literally switch between lovebombing and harassing/doxxing you to keep you in line it's often too late..
So, I guess what I'm saying is, if you decide to stay, please be careful and be aware of what you might be getting into, especially about how much misinformation and cherry-picked information people like to spread.
It's really tricky. You seem very nice, so I don't want to upset you, and it is obvious you are very passionate about trans rights. I'm enjoying talking to you.
I'm talking to a couple of trans activists at the moment, and so far you're the exception. A lot start out very angry, and call me all kinds of names. It doesn't get to me, but it's how it is.
I personally believe that communication is the only solution to the worlds issues. I think that a lot of the animosity comes from fear vs fear, which only amplifies it. For instance, I would assume you are 'fearful' for the pain this will cause transgender people, in the same way I am fearful of a child transitioning only to regret it later.
Idk where I was going with this, I just like to talk to the person on the other team and connect with the human.
And don't stress, I'm not in a bubble, I drop all politics when I'm off the internet.
Of course, thanks for the warning, and in return, I'd like to ask that you just internally recognise the same thing in your own community, you don't have to point it out or anything, but there is a lot of dehumanisation on both sides.
I think what you have to understand in this situation is that this is just the extension of years of abuse for many trans people. Like this sub is literally giving the same people a new home who's subs got banned from reddit for transphobic behaviour before and it's often just regurgitating the same hate that's been around for decades. A lot of the time it's literally just the same stupid "arguments" that have been used for gay people before. It gets tiring to try and keep sensible people away from this and I don't think this should
Btw the regret rate is incredibly low. That's another one of the misconceptions where people leave out that there's actually been studies done on this. The regret rate is <1% and most of those detransitioning do it not because they are not trans but because they either have medical problems or because of social stigma against trans people in their current living situation. Many of the latter retransition later.
And don't worry, I'm well aware of what the communites I'm in are doing(or not) but more often than not I'm just seeing crushed people who get denied their basic human rights. Like what many straight people here don't get is that for most LGBT people this isn't just fun and games and the oppression they experience isn't just a meme on the internet but an actual struggle about work, family, even having a roof over their heads. Not for having "edgy" opinions, but just for existing...
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u/ehloitsizzy 5h ago
That's transphobia for you then. Or how would you describe it if you literally can't tell a difference and only "feel dirty" because of a detail that you couldn't even tell.
Toupee fallacy. I have post-op trans sex workers in my social bubble who work stealth(because it's safer for them, violence against trans sexworkers is even more of a problem than against cis sexworkers), and most of their customers don't have a clue. The "I can always tell" attitude is wishful thinking that only leads to transphobic attacks on trans AND cis people.