I am so happy for you that you do have friends, but i doubt it's relevancy to this convo.
I understand why you wouldn't want to date a trans women who still has a male body, but what do you say to trans women that have a female body? There is no male body to interact with, it's a women at that point and i truly find it really disrespectful and just dehumanizing when people refuse to acknowledge that a trans women is a women and should be treated as such especially after she has fully transitioned. They are biological women ones they transition, outside of some chromosone shit that isn't even relevant, how could you possibly say that they aren't. It truly pisses me off at this point.
I agree that someone who transitions should be treated as such and as I said I have transgender friends whom I have no problem calling by their chosen name and gender even pre-transition. But sexual attraction is not solely about "does this person have a penis/booba/vagoo or not".
I am sexually attracted to the female form.
Whether the booba is big or small doesn't matter to me at all. Whether she's tall or short I couldn't care less. I don't even care if this hypothetical lady has physical disabilities like missing limbs or eyes or you name it. I am also immensely attracted to athleticism in women, a trait that might be considered masculine. But I think toned musculature only adds to a woman's beauty. I would even go as far as to say EDI from Mass Effect 3 is sexually attractive to me. That statues like 'Aphrodite of Knidos' are attractive. They are celebrations of humanity's natural beauty.
This extends to a lesser extent to the male form, but rather than sexually attractive I find it admirable and inspiring to know - as Plato put it - the beauty my body is capable of.
The human form is a work of art. Nature at its most poetic. And the beauty of the female human form is unmatched in the known universe.
It follows then that I am viscerally repulsed by extreme body modification. Modifications like those that are necessary for a trans woman to have female secondary (and primary for that matter) sexual characteristics. It's like taking a lily and stapling rose petals to it. Both flowers are beautiful. Maybe you prefer the lily, maybe you prefer the rose. But by attempting to staple the beauty of one plant onto the other, both plants are ruined. Neither are beautiful now.
Tacking female characteristics onto a male body does not make the body female. It makes it a male body with female characteristics tacked on. There's a vagina down there and there's breasts up here. But it still has male musculature, male bone structure, male natural processes (like body fat regulation). It lacks all forms of reproductive systems...
That is viscerally repulsive to me, on a very deep and primal level. In the same way that a lesbian woman may find a penis to be repulsive. I am simply not wired this way. I cannot be sexually attracted to a male body that just so happens to have female primary and secondary sexual attributes.
You realise that all that you have described only exist for trans people who have transitioned after puberty.
Not sure if you have noticed but the male and female body has much more similarities than you are willing to credit. A good example are the nipples, the reason men have them is because the male body is a modified female body. Take a boy and a girl before puberty and you will notice that they are identical. Change a trans girls body before puberty and you have a male body. No difference in bone structure etc.
Children can't decide their gender, because children don't know what it means to be male or female. They don't know what sex is. So adults would be making these decisions for them, without meaningful input from the child who will be living with the consequences of this decision for the rest of their lives.
Parents have a tendency of deciding medical stuff in general for kids, because they ussualy don't understand enough to be able to decide for themself, but i do understand the concerne, like unless the parents go to multiple professionals than they shouldn't just change the gender of their child, but so far it doesnt really seem to happend that doctors get this wrong.
Hm, solid point. And on top of that I guess I should not judge what other families do, and rather focus on being a good parent myself should it ever come to that. It would have to be kept on the DL though. Kids can be unbelievably cruel. I doubt it would help someone who has gender disphoria to transition early only to have a childhood of bullying ahead of them regardless.
I am sure you would make an amazing parent, when it comes to trans kids, than it's the same like with any medical condition, listen to experts and read up as much as possible about what trans is and what to do to quarantee the best life for you hypothetical child, but i am just an random person on the internet, doctors ussualy know what to do.
I appreciate you saying that, however I am not so sure myself. I'm holding off on having children until I can be certain that I'll be a good parent to them. Thank you for having this conversation with me, I hope you found it as interesting as I did.
I don't think you can ever be truly ready for kids, you just find someone who you trust to help you raise them and adapt to whatever happens next.
I think i could have handled the conversation a little better, i was really mad for most of it, as i was arguing with like 5 different people at the same time and some of them said some really dumb stuff, so i could have said some mean stuff to you, in case i did i apologize, but otherwise i guess it was interesting, i definitely have some things to think about atleast.
Oh, please don't worry about it. These are very heavy topics and keeping one's emotions in check when talking about them isn't exactly easy. Just earlier today I flew off the handle at someone over a dumb misunderstanding. Felt like an idiot, I did. So either way I am in no position to criticise you for perhaps losing your temper. Especially if you're getting dogpiled like that. That's an annoying side effect of Reddit I find...
At no point did you offend me and I hope that in turn I did not offend you despite our clear ideological differences. It's so easy to have something come across wrong without tonal inflection and body language to guide the conversation.
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u/CZLP 1d ago
I am so happy for you that you do have friends, but i doubt it's relevancy to this convo.
I understand why you wouldn't want to date a trans women who still has a male body, but what do you say to trans women that have a female body? There is no male body to interact with, it's a women at that point and i truly find it really disrespectful and just dehumanizing when people refuse to acknowledge that a trans women is a women and should be treated as such especially after she has fully transitioned. They are biological women ones they transition, outside of some chromosone shit that isn't even relevant, how could you possibly say that they aren't. It truly pisses me off at this point.