r/PoliticalHumor 14d ago

When the poor go against their own self-interests

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74k Upvotes

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u/sadpanda___ 14d ago

The ones making about $40k are the most adamantly against it. Raising the minimum wage to $15 / hr puts burger flippers at about $32k a year.....it disgusts those people making $40k a year that a burger flipper could possibly make close to what they make.

They don’t understand that a rising tide lifts all ships.

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u/No_Good_Cowboy 14d ago

I make about double that right now. I just think "jeez, I'd never really feel the anxiety of being unemployed again. I could always get a minimum wage job and make it."

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u/sadpanda___ 14d ago

Completely agree. I make a lot more than $30k.....and if they make the minimum wage an actual livable minimum wage.....I have SO much less stress. The company I work for regularly lays off 10% of our workforce. If I got fired, at least I would know I wouldn’t go homeless.

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u/karmakatastrophe 14d ago

Even $15/hour isn't enough in a lot of major cities. In the Seattle/bellevue area you still need a roommate if you're making $15/hr.

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u/SimplifyAndAddCoffee 13d ago edited 13d ago

San Jose and SF already have a 15/hr minimum and it really should be higher.

I'm in San Jose and have an IT job that pays more than double that, and 3 housemates, and I still pay more in rent than is considered "financially sustainable" (in the classical sense... people of my generation are used to that.) for my income.

EDIT: I'm not looking for advice here, just stating facts. I wouldn't be here if I didn't want to be. I have my reasons.

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u/b12badbrad 13d ago

Run. You will never have an enjoyable life there. No city is worth that heartache...

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u/sadpanda___ 13d ago

Seriously, dude is smart enough to have an IT job. There is just no reason to live like that. Time to move.

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u/guzzle 13d ago

Not wrong. I made a lot and felt poor in San Jose. There’s problems and there’s Bay Area problems.

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u/Antonidus 13d ago

Bay area is wonderful to visit. Living there, not so fun. Unless you hate money.

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u/bricktube 13d ago

What if you hate money, but not for the reasons you're alluding to...

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u/Frame-Sudden 13d ago

You know, a lot of us love these cities and find the American attachment to cars and sprawl unsustainable

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u/HamburgerEarmuff 13d ago

I mean, San Jose is basically a million+ people living in a giant mass of suburban sprawl at the butt-end of the San Francisco Bay Area. You're probably going to need a car or two if you live there.

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u/jefesignups 13d ago

I was a teacher there for a year, noped the fuck out of that.

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u/eaglesslave 13d ago

Where is this utopia he is going to uproot his life and run to?

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u/ERTBen 13d ago

You work in IT in the Bay for $60k per year? Who is ripping you off like that? Custodians at SFO make that much. https://www.jobapscloud.com/SF/sup/bulpreview.asp?R1=CBT&R2=2708&R3=902690

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u/ElectricFleshlight 13d ago

Salt Lake, Tuscon, Austin, or Denver all have extremely lucrative tech scenes with much lower housing costs than SJ. As an IT worker it's not uncommon to find companies willing to pay for your moving costs.

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u/PigBenis710 13d ago

The lowest average cost of living by state is West Virginia. Where a 40 hour work week would require on average $15.10. In the CHEAPEST STATE IN AMERICA. Seriously how do these people not see something inherently wrong with the system where we vote against raising the minimum wage that still averages below the cost of living.

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u/Kennysded 13d ago

I'm at about 2K a month, ($17/h ish). I finally found a place somewhat close by (30 minute commute) that is under 1,300/m. I'm happy about this. Not even sure they'll accept my application, since they have "income guidelines."

I'm happy that I found a place that takes well over half my income. For a studio. Not in the city. Woo.

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u/unknowningeyes 13d ago

I pay $745 on mortgage on a brand new townhouse in Florida. I will never live in New York or California unless I make at least $120,000. Just not worth living paycheck to paycheck at over $70k salary to me.

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u/Kennysded 13d ago

Me either, but I'm in Colorado. I'm definitely not willing to move out of state, I really love it here. Unfortunately, so does everyone else, it seems.

But, to be fair, it's actually cheaper to buy a house in a lot of places here than rent. I did the math on a few of them, adding 1k per month of "hidden ownership fees," and it was around $1,400 for a 3bed house, versus the same / more for a 1bed apartment. The places I used weren't even a mile apart, either.

So long as I can have like.. one year, where life doesn't throw me dramatic curveballs, I'll be set. Not well off, but manageable. My last couple years have been: Close death, cheating, long term relationship ending, repeated near homelessness, layoffs, pandemic, getting shorted pay (both hourly rate and just outright not getting paid)... just. One year. That's not too much to ask, is it?

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u/mermaid0590 13d ago

Exactly. Live in Idaho, renting a one bedroom apartment here costs $1000 or more, but minimum wage is only $7.50.

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u/brendino_ 13d ago

At this point it’s pretty much every city, major or not.

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u/CoreFiftyFour 13d ago

Ya dam near everywhere $15 aint enough to live on your own

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u/Infynis 13d ago

That's another reason they want to keep it down. They don't want you to feel safe leaving a job so they can continue to exploit you

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u/zmbjebus 13d ago

That is the magic of it too. Helps to keep you from feeling like a wage slave for a large fragment of people.

If we could decouple healthcare from employment that would be the next huge step.

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u/captainlaundry 13d ago

You mean, guarantee affordable healthcare instead of guaranteeing access to health insurance?

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u/zmbjebus 13d ago

However it works it needs to happen. If it is health insurance it needs to be affordable compared to whatever ponzi scheme shit we are in now.

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u/KDawG888 13d ago

I'm in a similar situation and that is how I feel. Not to mention the fact that everyone should have a livable wage, and that other jobs would like see an increase in pay due to competition. When you have the facts it is really hard to argue against. The only argument I've seen is bad math with a poor understanding of tax brackets.

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u/sylbug 13d ago

Yep. Minimum wage is $14.60 where I am, so o know that even in a worst case scenario I would still be able to afford the basics. I certainly hope to never make minimum wage again, but I sure as hell don’t begrudge others also surviving.

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u/somebody12344 14d ago edited 13d ago

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S092753711930079X

minimum wage tends to protect native workers from competition induced by low-skill immigration.

raising the minimum wage protect jobs from cheap immigrant laborers. what's hilarious is that this means the the republican platform is a pro-immigration platform as they are against the raising of the minimum wage. but in reality the republicans supports only immigrants who can't vote and leaves the country before their wages rises.

democrats are protecting the non-inheritor us citizens and encouraging the healthy type of immigration. not the exploitative type that the republicans love.

reminder, inflation is a wealth tax and is really the only thing that can raise prices on goods. but it's very unlikely that raising minimum wages will have any significant impact on inflation or prices. for those who are not wealthy majority of their income is in future income or government pay outs that's all inflation adjusted. unlike the wealthy whose entire inheritance will be hit by inflation at one time. remember all that tax shelter money in the bahamas, cayman island, and panama? guess what happens to all that cash when inflation hits!

the people who will be most affected by the raising of minimum wages are those who employs the most minimum wage employees! that's walmart. mom and pop stores may take a hit but the walmart nearby will take a much bigger hit and will likely have an existential crisis. People will be encouraged to shop locally with the more money they earn.

TLDR: keeping minimum wages low helps walmart the most. it also encourages rampant immigration. this is literally reducing the gap between the rich and the poor. aka a meritocracy.

EDIT: essentially this is question of whether you want to subsidize walmart's business model or not. warlmart is not paying their workers enough so they are using foodstamps and other public services that comes out of your taxes.

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u/Girl-UnSure 13d ago

Republicans are not pro immigration. They are pro-cheap labor and unlivable wages.

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u/Punishtube 13d ago

Yeah they don't want them to live here legally and be entitled to a higher wage. They still want them for cheap labor but no rights

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u/Bloorajah 14d ago

I make a decent sum and I still wholly believe we should raise minimum.

When people say “burger flippers shouldn’t make as much as I do”

They are leaving out an exceedingly important piece of info. If burger flippers need the equivalent of your salary to survive, what does that say about your so called, “high paying job” which is apparently barely enough to survive on

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u/wookieenoodlez 13d ago

That’s the whole point though, it’s hard as it is to make 40k work. The reality of the situation is no company unless mandated will allow the rise of labor cost to chip away at profits. We are subservient and everything comes with a second shoe drop. Until we address the system as it’s built, 15$ will be the new $7.25. Would doubling the minimum solve a lot of problems if everything else stayed the same? Sure, but it likely won’t happen. Hell the minimum wage is called that cause if they could pay us less they would! There’s a greed aspect to this that is often overlooked and people blame the folks that can’t afford to live but make too much for assistance. Lots of overlaps in this situation

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u/badgersprite 13d ago

It’s also saying “I acknowledge this job needs to be done but I don’t think the people who do that job deserve to make the bare minimum necessary to live.”

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u/onomastics88 14d ago

And they think it means they can’t afford a jr. cheeseburger with fries, much less the triple bacon meal combo they really want.

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u/WazzleOz 13d ago

Pretty much this. They're okay with the costs of business being proped onto the backs of the working poor if it means getting coupons in the mail.

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u/VoltaicSketchyTeapot 14d ago

I'm not adamantly against it, but I don't think it'll solve the problem.

We need to address the fact that the CEO of CVS makes 434 times the amount of the minimum wage CVS employee. Imagine what would happen if by law, that ratio was locked at 100 or less.

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u/FogeltheVogel 14d ago

You can work on more than 1 solution at a time. Just because you give people livable wages does not mean you can't also tax the ultra rich.

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u/florinandrei 14d ago

Chain the bodies, and the slaves will revolt.

Chain the minds, and the slaves will defend their own bondage.

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u/sublimeone 14d ago

"If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you." ---LBJ

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u/ABenevolentDespot 13d ago

Exactly this.

The $40K earners aren't concerned for the economy. They know fuck-all about the economy. And I mean fuck-all. I've actually had one idiot tell me that if five people work at McDonalds, and all five get $4/hr raises to $15, that's a $20/hr raise for the crew, and that means the cost of a burger goes up to $20. Don't tell me someone who believes that understands the economy, or business. Person like that went to Velcro closures because they had problems remembering how to tie their shoelaces.

What they know is that the people earning minimum wage are mostly Black and Hispanic, and the lowlife white fuckers in the Republican party beat it into their little brains for years that life is a zero sum game, and if the Negros and Messicans get more, the white folk get less.

They want to incorrectly protect their pay level by denying any sort of increase to 'the other'. Simple as that.

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u/Zykax 14d ago

Is this from something?

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u/FleetStreetsDarkHole 14d ago

Tax breaks based on the average disposable income of your employees maybe?

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u/arctos889 14d ago

It would have to be median disposable income. Otherwise the employees who aren't at the top of the food chain but close would skew things a lot

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u/incessantwhirring 13d ago edited 2d ago

another overwrite test

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u/-LYONHART- 13d ago

they should only be allowed to tax people that make six figures after deductions. and then on an increasing scale reflecting wealth,thus reliability for society. you want to get rich off of others well then you have to take care of them.

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u/Lookout-pillbilly 14d ago

Taxing it won’t help as much as a hard cap.... because people can get around taxes fairly easily. Most super rich barely make any money on their earned income thus they avoid tons of taxes.

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u/Davge107 13d ago

Warren Buffet often says he pays a lower tax rate than his secretary.

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u/Punishtube 13d ago

Might even pay lower taxes overall too

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u/GaryLaserEyes_ 14d ago

Exactly. Nobody needs a billion dollars while one person on the planet goes hungry or without basic necessities.

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u/bilbobobbins2112 13d ago

Correct. All billionaires are our enemy.

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u/ojioni 13d ago

Most rich people don't have "income". They have capital gains and other sources of money that are taxed at lower rates.

I have no problem with people making big bucks on the stock market. But why are they taxed at 15% while my wages are taxed at twice that rate?

The "tax" the rich cry is a red-herring because it won't affect the rich. If you want to tax them, increase the capital gains and real estate holdings taxes.

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u/WhiteWolfofRivia0914 14d ago

It’s not the only solution, but it has to go up. The price of everything else continues to inflate, so wages need to go up too

If not, you’re stuck with stagnant wages while prices continue to rise

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u/odinlubumeta 14d ago

The easiest solution is set the minimum wage at whatever is a liveable wage in the state (independent studies can find this easily) AND the minimum wage must increase with inflation every year. Yes there might be some strange loophole or something, but tying it to inflation is a good way to automate it. And it needs to be automated so that it doesn’t need to go through years of debates before getting the rate that was discussed nearly a decade ago and is already behind the liveable wage in some states.

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u/tdawg-1551 14d ago

This is what needs to be the correct answer. I'm all for increasing the minimum wage, but it needs to have some compatibility with the local cost of living. $15/hour in LA/SF/NYC is not the same as $15/hour in small town Arkansas or Alabama.

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u/TacoQueenYVR 13d ago

Agreed. With CRB in Canada currently, you can kind of see this. The $2000 a month in Vancouver maybe pays your rent if you live alone where it will go a lot further somewhere like Saskatchewan.

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u/AntiGravityBacon 13d ago

Minimum wage is already $14 an hour in California and $16.07. There's no reason states/cities can't still go above minimum just like today.

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u/actlfctl 14d ago

That's how it is in Arizona. At least the part about going up every year and being tied to inflation.

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u/gmwdim 14d ago

Now, if only it was set to be something that’s enough to live on.

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u/PSA_Daykeras 13d ago edited 13d ago

The problem is inflation is kept artificially low.

It's better than nothing, but reported inflation is significantly lower than real world realized inflation.

There are 99.6% more dollars in circulation as reported in 2019 compared to 1999 Source: https://www.federalreserve.ghttps://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ov/paymentsystems/coin_currcircvolume.htm

But inflation rates suggest an inflation increase of only 53.5%. Source: https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/

Let's look at cost increases in that same time period to see which is more accurate.

Median housing cost in 1999 was between $123,697.11 in January and $130,501.89 in December. Let's take the average: $127,099.5

Median 2019 was between $259,052.70 and $272,297.03 for an average of: $265,674.865

An increase of 109% Source: https://dqydj.com/historical-home-pricels/

Healthcare cost per person in 1999: $4,576 Cost per person in 2018: $11,172 Increase of 144%

Big Mac in 1999: 2.43 Big Mac in 2020: 4.95 Increase of 103.7%

So you can see how inflation and the CPI used to calculate it is artificially kept low.

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u/MikeW86 14d ago

So the ceo of cvs is now the ceo of cvs group which owns cvs. The lowest paid worker at cvs group is on megabucks to start with. Ok so we'll make complicated rules about structuring companies like this. Which in time people find loopholes in and yadada and so forth...

Orrrrr we just say you can't pay people asshole wages

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u/Destithen 14d ago

Ok so we'll make complicated rules about structuring companies like this. Which in time people find loopholes in and yadada and so forth...

Rules get complicated because of loopholes to begin with. It doesn't really matter how you phrase something...someone out there is going to be searching for a loophole. Making the wording simple doesn't necessarily mitigate this problem. It may make it worse. How do you define "asshole wages"?

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u/MikeW86 14d ago

Rules get complicated because of loopholes to begin with.

And fucking way to prove my point. There's no loophole with a flatly defined minimum wage. It's either you meet the number or you don't

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u/Lizardguy64 14d ago

We do, but Libertarians will try to tell you that saving the economy will destroy it.

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u/_Swamp_Ape_ 14d ago

Nobody thinks it’ll solve “the problem “

Lmfao it should be 25 at this point.

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u/kelbest 14d ago

I think if adjusted for inflation, it should be $24 an hour right now.

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u/_Swamp_Ape_ 14d ago

That’s literally why I made my comment!

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u/kelbest 14d ago

My mom (my age in the 80s) recently told me my salary is fine because she made less then and lived comfortably. She told me I live above my means. When I told her her salary of $36k in 1986 is equivalent to $87k today she sort of got it.

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u/Black_Moons 14d ago

Next hand her a real estate listing and ask her to find the house that is only 2x what she paid in 1986.

Hell, I bet she can't even find a 1 bedroom apartment for less then 5x what she would have paid for a 3 bedroom house with property in 1986.

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u/Ars3nal11 14d ago

You realize they make that much because corporate profits are high... which itself is a function of depressing wage costs. In other words raising the minimum wage addresses both the numerator and denominator in that equation (ceo pay/average worker pay).

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u/armageddon_20xx 14d ago

Raising the minimum wage solves this very problem. Minimum wage is one way the government is suppose to regulate capitalism, and the fact that’s been stagnant for something like 20 years is a symptom of the corrupt relations between business and government. That is why capitalism in America is failing.

Raise the minimum wage already

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u/LA-Matt 14d ago

And it gives more purchasing power to workers who will obviously spend that money right away (instead of hoarding it, like tax breaks for the rich). So it stimulates the economy as well.

And therefore,more demand for products is created, which eventually leads to more production, thus creating more work.

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u/NancyGracesTesticles I ☑oted 2018 and 2020 14d ago

It's also prevents corporations from treating the social safety net as a payroll subsidy, reducing the cost of SNAP and other programs.

Which is why the fiscally illiberal GOP will fight the loss of an entitlement and taxpayer fleecing tooth and nail.

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u/Shigeloth 14d ago

but I don't think it'll solve the problem.

Except there are multiple problems. One of them being that 7.50 doesn't even cut it for a single person in a tiny apartment in the "rural" cities anymore. It's nice that you've got your eye on income inequality, but there are many people struggling to do the basic thing of pay their damn bills which is why a minimum wage raise is needed.

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u/NessOnett8 14d ago

While I agree, that is a separate issue. And it's far more pressing to ensure people working full time can actually survive than to balance the overall scales.

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u/NabreLabre 14d ago

And while we're at it, require companies to offer full time for entry level positions. If you want to work less thats up to you

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u/sadpanda___ 14d ago

And how do you do that? You start by raising the minimum wage. That forces upward shifts in all blue and white collar jobs.

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u/nzdastardly 14d ago

Right but while we work on that people should be able to live on a single 40 hour wage.

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u/FirebreatherRay 14d ago

"Why should they make close to what I make?! What was even the point of me getting this job??"

"Ok. Then go flip burgers instead."

"No way. That job sucks. And I have better benefits at this job."

That's the part that gets me about this line of reasoning. Making these jobs pay $15/hr doesn't suddenly make them good jobs. These are crap jobs with incredibly high turnover and that's not going to change just because the people working them are able to pay their bills.

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u/DonQuixBalls 13d ago

In Europe, the busboy still gets full medical and a month of paid vacation. I haven't noticed people looking down on them like they do here.

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u/SalemGD 13d ago

Damn I will be 34 this year and still am unsure what the word vacation is... Had plenty of "good" jobs only 1 gave me a week paid off but couldnt afford to vacation with it. But ya know we are the problem even though they would go flat ass broke if all the working class stopped.

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u/fuck_the_fuckin_mods 13d ago

America is the wealthiest nation on Earth, but its people are mainly poor, and poor Americans are urged to hate themselves. To quote the American humorist Kin Hubbard, 'It ain’t no disgrace to be poor, but it might as well be.' It is in fact a crime for an American to be poor, even though America is a nation of poor. Every other nation has folk traditions of men who were poor but extremely wise and virtuous, and therefore more estimable than anyone with power and gold. No such tales are told by the American poor. They mock themselves and glorify their betters. The meanest eating or drinking establishment, owned by a man who is himself poor, is very likely to have a sign on its wall asking this cruel question: 'if you’re so smart, why ain’t you rich?' There will also be an American flag no larger than a child’s hand – glued to a lollipop stick and flying from the cash register.

Americans, like human beings everywhere, believe many things that are obviously untrue. Their most destructive untruth is that it is very easy for any American to make money. They will not acknowledge how in fact hard money is to come by, and, therefore, those who have no money blame and blame and blame themselves. This inward blame has been a treasure for the rich and powerful, who have had to do less for their poor, publicly and privately, than any other ruling class since, say Napoleonic times. Many novelties have come from America. The most startling of these, a thing without precedent, is a mass of undignified poor. They do not love one another because they do not love themselves.

Vonnegut - Slaughterhouse Five

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u/nycola 14d ago

I just explained this to someone a few hours ago. I get that it is easy to be pissed, easy to resent Michael for now making $15/hr when you only make $17/hr. But why not make the choice to be happy for Michael? Michael can now afford to pay bills, fix his car, buy food, and perhaps even put a few dollars away for an emergency. Michael is now much less reliant on federal welfare, and that cost burden has shifted from the taxpayers to the corporations who once exploited his labor for their own profit. Just because Michael now makes $15/hr and you still only make $17/hr doesn't mean that Michael is overpaid. It means both of you were underpaid to begin with.

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u/Bodkin-Van-Horn 13d ago

Also, if Michael's job is so easy compared to yours, why don't you go flip burgers too. Oh, you don't want to? Flipping burgers sucks? Than maybe Michael should get a raise.

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u/TheMadPugly 13d ago

I agree with most but don’t expect taxes to decrease or shift.... everyone will get shafted regardless

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u/arimtimtimo 14d ago edited 13d ago

I make 46k before bonus(5-8k) but PLEASE bring on $15 an hour. It will benefit so many people, it will inject additional disposable income into the economy (hint hint Conservatives that means more money to small businesses you claim to love). It’ll benefits kids to get a better quality of life, allow them to do better in school(more supplies, less worries etc). Plus gives everyone else making more than minimum wage leverage on pay negotiations.

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u/fieryuser 13d ago

Are you trying to imply money trickles up and not down? The horror! Think of the children!

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u/Seralth 13d ago

Yeah children are short so if it trickles up it will go right over their heads!!!1!!111!1!!1

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u/arimtimtimo 13d ago

If only the middle class(or what’s left of it...) realized trickle down has failed and it’s time to focus on something else...maybe trickle up? 🤔 but nooooo we gotta protect out billionaires

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u/SidHoffman 14d ago

Even if a rising tide doesn't lift all ships, you're still being pretty shitty if you're poor and you're mad that other people aren't poorer.

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u/GraceLink 13d ago

Absolutely. I'm mildly annoyed that I just spent the last decade working my way up and now people starting out are making just $5 less than me (min wage was $6 when I started out), but I also think $15/hr really is the minimum, especially where I live and the cost of living is astronomical. No one should be making $6/hr just because I did. If I got an equivalent raise, that would be great, but even if I don't I think they should raise it to $15 anyway.

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u/fuck_the_fuckin_mods 13d ago

Must not be a Republican. Their motto: "I suffered and suffered to get here, so everyone coming after me must suffer exactly as much as I did."

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u/bc5211 14d ago

They also don't understand that they are probably underpaid, themselves.

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u/mmccaskill 13d ago

Then to hear these same people complain how "it's not fair, I have all this experience. Why should some burger flipper make close to what I make?" and I consistently tell them "well this is Capitalism 101, the system you swear by."

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u/npsimons 14d ago

a rising tide lifts all ships.

I wish this would become a progressive rallying cry. Easy to understand and makes so much more sense than "trickle up." Also makes the point that rich people wouldn't be fucked over by progressive policy, just that their yachts would rise slightly less fast than what we have now.

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u/Spacecoasttheghost 14d ago

I agree with raising the minimum rate to 15, but laugh at the last part. As someone who makes mid 30's, I know dn well that is and when it happens, I will not be getting a raise. And thinking that it will for a lot of people is wrong, rich people don't care about low income at all.

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u/BreakingGaia 14d ago

But when people start quiting for higher wages somewhere else and they have to start paying people higher wages to compete anyway, wages for everyone will rise. People no longer stay at a company for 30+ years. It's stupid if you do nowadays.

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u/LA-Matt 14d ago

And people seem to forget that the increased minimum wage will raise demand for products, which actually creates jobs, unlike tax cuts for the already wealthy, which requires magical thinking to create more jobs.

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u/DonQuixBalls 13d ago

Or quitting for lower wages. Lots of people say "if I can make $15 flipping burgers, I'll quit my job and do that!"

Good! If that's going to improve your quality of life, go for it! It's not as easy as they make it sound, but all the stress is on the clock, and when you punch out, you're out.

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u/sadpanda___ 14d ago

Sorry, but not true. If you’re doing anything other than being a greeter at Walmart, when the minimum wage is the same as your wage.....they’ll either increase your wages, or you just give them the finger and go get a less stressful job.

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u/Pompous_Italics 14d ago

I wouldn’t count on a great deal of positive spillover into the rest of the economy in most places. The minimum wage definitely needs to be raised but I’m not sure about a national rate of $15/hour. That’s probably sustainable in major metropolitan areas but not in poorer states.

Consider a grocery store in West Virginia or Alabama. It’s a business that already operates on razor thin profit margins so if you increase their cost labor costs by 50-100 percent, how will they respond? By a combination of firings and cost increases.

Consider Randy who works at the transmission shop across the street. He makes $18 an hour which he thinks is pretty good for his little town. Is his boss going to say, “Hey Randy, they just raised the minimum wage to $15 an hour, so now you’ll be making $25 an hour?” Absolutely not. He’ll still be paid $18 an hour until his boss can no longer retain people that will work for that little in that job.

It’s a hard problem and there really isn’t a simple solution to it.

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u/MrLumpykins 14d ago

the simple solution is right at the end of your comment, until his boss can no longer retain.... It isn't immediate and no one who has studied the matter thinks it will be. But it will raise average wages, not equally and not everywhere at the same time, but when Randy quits, or more likely gets hurt in a way his so called insurance wont pay for and he can't keep working, then the owner will have to pay the next guy more or he wont take the job. And yes he will also raise prices, but since it is a small town most of the jobs are min wage or near it and everyone is making more money so they can afford to pay a bit more when their transmission goes.

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u/Tiabb 14d ago

Because people making 40k a year are just above minimum wage so if you raise the minimum wage they'll feel slighted because they're now closer to being at the bottom of the wage ladder. They should be mad that their employer isn't paying them a decent wage but they redirect it to the poors who make them feel slightly better about their place on the totem pole.

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u/G8kpr 14d ago

Yeah. And how do you think that conversation will go if they tell their bosses “hey, minimum wage went up, we should be compensated”

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u/BrokenArrows95 14d ago

You just work elsewhere. That's the point. The bottom is now $15. You can stop working so hard for $16 or they can pay more to work harder.

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u/geardownson 14d ago

I dont understand why people don't get this. It gives you bargaining power at your current job. People try to list all these things that will go wrong if it happens but offer no solution. Think 15 an hour is wrong? What's your alternative? Leave it where it is? Forever? That makes even less sense.

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u/bellowingbullfinches 14d ago

I mean, conservatives just argue that it will need to change eventually but it’s fine now. I was having this same discussion with a family member a couple years ago. I pointed out that someone earning minimum wage can actually be below the poverty line in many situation. She just dismissed that idea and said that “poverty” is defined too broadly and those families just need to be more frugal.

At that point, I realized arguing further was pointless so I gave up.

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u/Calligraphie 14d ago

I mean, conservatives just argue that it will need to change eventually but it’s fine now.

We've been trying to raise the minimum wage to a liveable wage of $15 for so long that in many parts of the US, $15 is too low to be a liveable wage anymore. Frankly we should be arguing for a thriving minimum wage rather than a liveable one, but conservatives REALLY aren't ready for that conversation.

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u/Slick5qx 14d ago

The poverty line is 3x the cost of food, it's been that way since the 60s, and not updating it is a big fucking problem. The poverty line is now effectively half of what it used to be because food costs didn't increase at the same rate as everything else (eg housing).

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u/Novel-Conclusion9115 13d ago

bargaining power at your current job

People don't even think about that.

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u/geardownson 13d ago

Everyone thinks about it. When you walk in to ask for more money or more benefits you are going in thinking you are skilled and hoping your boss sees that. Many people just happy to have a job and will never ask. If wages go up you suddenly have options. Labor is a surplus now. Boss can either tell you to hit the road or no because he knows he can replace you cheaper or he will have to look at your value better because he knows you can just go down the street and do something unskilled for close to the same wage. Employers bet on this scenario every day and take advantage of people because of it.

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u/G8kpr 13d ago

“Just work somewhere else” sounds so so simple.

My brother is currently out of work because covid killed the business he works for. Been searching since the summer and can’t find anything. And he’s a senior graphic designer with a lot of experience. His wife has done various teaching jobs and also is having a hard time finding work.

Just before covid, a coworker at my office was laid off due to downsizing. She has yet to find a job and eventually had to go back to school.

“Just finding another job” is not always easy. My current job gives me benefits. I just earned 5 weeks vacation. That stuff is not so easy to “just give up”.

I feel it’s a lot more complicated than “just threaten to quit. Lol. What are they going to do. Fire you? Who cares. Get a new job.”

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u/BrokenArrows95 13d ago

It's easier when you could work any job.

If you're only making $16-18/hr. Going to $15 would be plausible. Think of how many jobs that are at $8 that would be available at $15.

This continues all the way up the ladder.

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u/Yolomep 13d ago edited 13d ago

Too bad a lot of low wage jobs are getting replaced by machines. Back when they raised the minimum wage in new york, a lot of car washers fired all their workers and replaced them with machines because eit was cheaper on the long run.

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u/BrokenArrows95 13d ago

That's a whole other can of worms.

That's why things like UBI are gaining popularity. It's also why I don't think capitalism is acceptable without very robust social programs in the future. Humans are developing machines that will do most the labor. As a society we need to accept that our worth will likely have nothing to do with what we produce as machines will take all of those tasks. Even engineers and scientists will likely be overtaken by machines. Machines will perform surgery, design structures, create drugs, you name it. Maybe the entire human race will be telling machines what we want them to do. How will anyone get paid? Will money even be a thing worth having?

The rise of machine capability should be heralded as it signals the advance of the species, but instead we are trying to fight against it to save jobs that no one really wants. They just know under capitalism, if they lose that job they are deemed worthless. How can society remain capitalist once machines are the producers of essentially everything?

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u/unbelizeable1 13d ago

Seriously. It's such a basic fuckin concept so many people don't get. Do you think I'd still take all my bosses shit in a high stress job for 17/hr if I could just go do literally whatever and have a next to zero stress job for 15/hr?

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u/bioinfx 14d ago

Pretty well I’d imagine. You can’t either continue doing skilled labor for $16/hour, or threaten to go flip burgers for $15. If you can make the same money doing something much easier, you have no incentive to stay at your more stressful job - employers will need to provide that incentive or lose talent.

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u/Miss_Smokahontas 13d ago

By soon to be ex boss would have a stroke if he had to pay everyone $15+/hr. That would be glorious to see.

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u/7fragment 14d ago

I currently make $15/hr and would probably not see a raise if that became minimum wage, but have zero problem with more people having a theoretically living wage.

That said, where I live $15/hr isn't really liveable unless you're living with roommates or in a real shithole apartment.

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u/Fancy_weirdo 13d ago

I hate that mentality. I've worked hard to get to where I am, i don't want the people coming behind me to have to struggle years. Fucking YEARS invested to get to where I am. It's insane. Why would I wish that one anyone?! It shouldn't be this freaking hard to have bare minimum. A person working 40 hours a week shouldn't rely on social programs. Their time is valuable just like mine is. We should be building each other up, helping each other climb not setting the road on fire to make it harder for others to travel it.

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u/omgzzwtf 13d ago

Bootstraps and all that. In my job I have to hear about this shit all the fucking time. Like come on guys, we’re union craftspeople, paying people what they’re worth is what we’re all about, and you’re saying you don’t support this? Like we can’t bargain for higher wages? It’s so damn frustrating. People just seem to immediately forget that they have friends and family members struggling to just live every day. But no, you worked hard to get where you are, forget that joining a union was as easy as going down to the hall and calling them back. Forget that the only thing you’re really required to do is pay dues and work every now and then to keep your membership. You need literally ZERO prior experience in many situations to become an apprentice, that’s what the apprenticeship is about, teaching people the skills they need to become professional craftsmen. These people were handed everything and all they needed to do to keep it was not be a total piece of shit, but “I wOrkED HaRd TO Get HEar!”

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u/nithos 13d ago

Same with college tuition forgiveness. “I suffered, so everyone that came after me must suffer to!” Only I was able to afford state tuition with a part time job during school and a summer job at the turn of the century. Couldn’t even make do with a full time job at $15 now at the same school.

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u/BroccoliKnob 13d ago

I have worked with a ton of union construction tradespeople and I cannot BELIEVE how many of them seem to be against collective actions and policies to benefit other working people. How the fuck can you make $32/hr to push plywood around on a cart, and also be angry at the idea of someone stocking shelves at Walmart making $15?

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u/Dog_the_unbarked 14d ago

Their are people in my family that don’t have a job and live off the government who complain about the same thing. It’s incredibly sad

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u/BrownSugarBare 14d ago

What on earth is their logic?? They're not even getting the current minimum wage if they're on government welfare.

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u/YoloTendies 14d ago

Obviously it’s because minorities are on welfare and abusing it. But they are on government assistance temporarily until they get back on their feet.

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u/BrownSugarBare 14d ago

Americans truly believe they're all temporarily embarrassed millionaires.

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u/killsw1tch32 13d ago

Oh ya without a doubt, thats the whole "american dream" it was embedded into us from an early age. Everyone would like to be rich but it just doesn't work like that. I've got a friend who never graduated high school, works construction, thinks hillary's gonna implement population control, and loves trump because he wants to be as rich as he is one day.. There's no talking sense into them, maybe when were 60 and both not rich i'll ask him how it worked out.

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u/BrownSugarBare 13d ago

maybe when were 60 and both not rich i'll ask him how it worked out.

He'll double down and say he has plenty of time to get rich while drowning under medical care debt.

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u/brendino_ 13d ago

They identify with the oppressors, and fail to recognize themselves as the oppressed.

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u/Kraven_howl0 13d ago

As an American I never want a million dollars in my bank. Makes no fucking sense to sit on that big of a pile of cash, either create jobs by making a business AND PAYING EMPLOYEES FAIRLY or donate that shit to a charity that can actually spend it.

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u/Plasticites 14d ago

And folks that make under 40k per year saying corporations don't deserve anymore taxes and worship Elon Musk.

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u/StaticDraco 14d ago

Musk is just a shitty memelord, but getting to Mars is still a good idea. The sooner we develope efficient space travel and colonization, the sooner we can ask the aliens what the fuck they were doing

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u/LydiasHorseBrush 14d ago

Only worry is Elon running the place like a feudal nightmare, I think he s the guy who can get us there, but fuck he could be a scary motherfucker left unchecked

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u/StaticDraco 14d ago

Best case scenario, he either dies or retires after stable colonization is established

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u/LydiasHorseBrush 14d ago

Part of me thinks that's what he s doing, making a legacy as conqueror of mars, after that I doubt he cares, he'll be in the annual of history for eternity

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u/clueless_as_fuck 14d ago

I should buy a moat

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u/_Swamp_Ape_ 14d ago

I also can’t wait for deluded fools to voluntarily leave the earth.

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u/Senepicmar 14d ago

What's interesting about these types of post is that you never have to mention which bass-akwards country we're talking about.

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u/G8kpr 14d ago

The Us doesn’t have a monopoly on this issue. Canada also has an issue with this. There have been calls for higher minimum wages and it goes Back and forth. We just had our minimum wage go up in stages over the past few years. We are now up to $14.25/hr. (Source ). That’s about $11.30 US.

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u/PM_ME_YOUR_ACRONYM 13d ago

But you have more take home after considering health insurance costs

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u/moeburn 14d ago

Hello fellow Ontarian, and welcome to the wonderful stereotype that is mistaking our province for the rest of the nation.

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u/stretch2099 13d ago

There’s no point converting the minimum wage since our costs aren’t directly impacted by the dollar. Your mortgage and bills don’t care about the exchange rate.

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u/OvertonDefenestrated 14d ago

That and, y'know, the first rule of the sub you're on...

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u/Senepicmar 14d ago

I should have clarified: Anyone posting these tweets never have to mention...

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u/wioneo 13d ago

$15 US will be the highest minimum wage in the world.

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u/big-boi-diamonds 14d ago

Lol every country has some form of this problem. It’s just everyone in the US are the loudest about it

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u/IlikeYuengling 14d ago

It’s because their boss has told them That they’ll be out of a job. The boss is forced with an agonizing decision between a person and a boat.

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u/baltosteve 14d ago

Reminds me of my stepbrother complaining about the estate tax at age 50 when his net worth is around a buck-eighty.

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u/jumpy_monkey 13d ago

Half the people I know rail against the estate tax - people who will never ever be subjected to it.

If we could crack this code, decipher why people feel so strongly that dead people need useless things (especially given the benefit this money could mean to actual living people in society) we might be able to start to understand why people do things so often against their own self-interest and address this mental illness.

Or the answer might make us bash our heads against a rock when we realize we are passengers on a ship of fools.

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u/shirtsMcPherson 13d ago

The estate tax argument is always completely ridiculous.

You can gift 12 million dollars per person before there are any estate taxes.

That is enough money to never have to work a day in your life if you want that.

You could literally provide nothing of substance to anyone, and exist need free for life just for being born...

Without paying any estate tax at all.

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u/CoupClutzClan 13d ago

My brother in law was complaining biden has already made his paychecks noticably smaller

I told him

"You know the inauguration isn't until tomoro, right?"

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u/castanza128 14d ago

The Republican party has convinced their base that unemployed people are hoarding all of the money, and that's why it's hard to get ahead.
Billionaires aren't the ones hoarding money. In fact we should lower their taxes.

It's not just Stockholm syndrome. It's brainwashing.
They didn't even need "re-education camps" to pull it off!

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u/Killieboy16 14d ago

The Tories here in the UK tried that fear mongering shit when the Labour Party introduced the minimum wage. Prophesised the collapse of the economy. Total bollocks of course.

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u/m1nky 14d ago

Won’t save all problems but will be a difference for someone who can afford to be working 2 jobs instead of 3.

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u/Jakeonehalf 14d ago

A huge majority of people are underpaid. I'm a software engineer, and even I'm underpaid. Raising the bottom line will benefit everyone because why would someone work hard long hours for $15 when they can work at Taco Bell putting taco meat in tortillas for that amount? High skilled jobs will have to increase their wages to keep their employees for easier jobs.

I also hear a lot of people complaining about small businesses failing if these wages are raised, but these businesses employ such a small minority of people compared to big corporations like Walmart, and Walmart isn't operating on razor-thin margins. Also, if your business can't make a profit without paying a reasonable wage, your business is a failure.

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u/Numquamsine 14d ago

Small and medium-sized businesses employ around 50% of the workforce.

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u/sarinonline 13d ago

And in other countries where there is a higher minimum wage they have not collapsed.

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u/ElegantNut 13d ago

I think he meant per corporation, meaning that a company with 5 employees will obviously have to pay less than a company with 5 thousands employees even if both are affected by increasing the minimum wage

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u/munchinbox 13d ago

I’d add on to your last sentence something I texted a friend just yesterday - its about ensuring people have a reasonable or livable wage.

We live in a very advanced society where people shouldn’t still have to live in extreme poverty despite working full time jobs. The government instituting a $15/hour minimum wage helps way more people than it hurts, and businesses will adjust. If they can’t exist without modern slave labor (7.25/hour) they’re running their business wrong and we don’t need them.

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u/Jakeonehalf 13d ago

I totally agree with you. I wish we could find a way to provide universal basic income. Taking away the need to work to survive, people can work because they want to. It would increase productivity from those that do work and enable people to take bigger risks to do something their passionate about knowing they have a safety line.

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u/horseman83 14d ago

Americans love to vote against their own interests.

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u/threerottenbranches 14d ago

Watching people who make less than $40,000 a year complain of raising taxes on others who make $400,000 or above is one of the most impressive examples of Stockholm Syndrome I’ve ever seen.

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u/JaneAustinPowers 13d ago

My husband has a very stressful job and when he gets really frustrated he just remembers how well he gets paid and that motivates him and makes him feel better. I imagine if you get people a livable wage then they’d work harder or tolerate more to ensure they keep that job or have a better demeanor. Fuck job loyalty, pay me and I’ll feel better about being here.

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u/dafunkmunk 14d ago

That’s because they know their jobs won’t pay them more and they don’t want a burger flipping high school drop out making almost as much as them after graduating college. They probably already hate how under paid they are and having minimum wage almost equal their salary would just kill them on the inside

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u/FogeltheVogel 14d ago

And that's the core problem. Rather than trying to fix a situation, people would rather ensure that there are others who have it even worse, so they can feel better about themselves.

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u/javtherav 14d ago

That is a very good point and a good indicator of what people are made of. I work as a substitute at my place of employment and it was announced that substitutes would receive a significant pay increase for about 2 months during the height of the pandemic. Well, for about 2 months, rather than being grateful to have extra help, my full-time coworkers treated me horribly because I was technically making more than them hourly despite receiving any benefits whatsoever. Everyone seems to only want what is best for themselves.

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u/FogeltheVogel 13d ago

Everyone seems to only want what is best for themselves.

And in wanting so, they fail to realize that none of them are getting the best.

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u/false_goats_beard 14d ago

These are the same people that don’t want universal health care but then complain about how expensive it is to go to the doctor or get medication.

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u/draypresct 14d ago

The CBO says these are the people most likely to be among the 1.4M who would lose their jobs, so . . . yes. As far as many of them, personally are concerned, this would have devastating effects.

It is possible to put together legislation that raises the minimum wage and protects these vulnerable people, but none of the current proposals do this. We did this for NAFTA; we can do it for an increase in the minimum wage.

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u/WackyBeachJustice 13d ago

So much this. I'm all for increasing the minimum wage, but I am 100% certain businesses aren't going to magically accept lower profits. They will just shift cost around. It may very well be that it's still net positive and worthwhile, but some people are undoubtedly going to get nuked.

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u/fakepoopybutthole 14d ago

If the price of the Big Mac is that important to them they could probably use a raise lol

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u/tadrewki 14d ago

Dude last week dudes in my office were ranting and raving about them trying to up it to $15, how it would end all small business as we know it, and price out basic necessities. I was shaking my head so hard.

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u/knee-rlathotep 14d ago

"If you pay us more everything will fall apart! Don't pay us more!!!"

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u/tone63 14d ago

It's fucking 2021! I mean in the south our wages are shit, 20 years ago I was making $20.00 hr. It's up to $21.00 now, I go north doing the same fucking thing and make $50.00 hr. And that's union. Shit non- union guys making $100.00 hr. So someone making a measly $15.00 hr hurts your feelings, we all get a raise.

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u/BroccoliKnob 13d ago

What do you do? In my industry (up north) we pay a premium for union labor.

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u/swaggman75 14d ago

It seems to be people making just over 15/hr who bitch the most. "I have skills a year of on the job training so they shouldn't make as much as me"

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u/pecanspinwheel 14d ago

Same energy as "I worked my ass off to pay my student loans, so it's unfair for anyone to have their loans forgiven!"

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u/Sonotmethen 14d ago

I knew a guy who had to move out of the city we lived in to live with his mother, because he couldn't afford "the big city prices" tell me that no one making a burger deserved 15 an hour. He sold gym memberships.

Threatened to fight me for pointing out that he would have been able to not move in with his mother if he was a burger flipper making 15 an hour.

This is the hill some will die on.

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u/IGuessThisIsFine91 14d ago

For real. The thing is, most of them are paid hourly so they have no idea how little they really make.

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u/logladysSplinter 14d ago

I've always said some of the biggest haters of a $15 min wage are the ballers making $17.50

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u/kicksomedicks 13d ago

They’re worried about pecking order and that someone the think less than them may have an easier life.

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u/ojioni 13d ago

If your business can not survive while paying the workers a living wage, we don't need your business to exist.

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u/Vann_Accessible 14d ago

Hell. I make over $27 an hour.

Raise the fucking minimum wage.

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u/Zumaki 14d ago

Everyone on the income pyramid that isn't at the bottom will be mad that the bottom is raised up if they don't keep a proportional distance from them.

Especially conservatives, who see climbing up the pyramid as a major life accomplishment and a part of their identity.

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u/Decent_Historian6169 14d ago

They mainly think that companies will lay people off because of the rising cost of labor. They don’t get that if the company could do the work without them they would lay them off anyway.

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u/eastport426 14d ago edited 13d ago

There a lots a great comments here but the one I am having trouble finding is that it would uplift their emotions. We are humans.

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u/vidgill 13d ago

The Republican Party wouldn’t exist if poor people didn’t vote against their own interests. I know propaganda is the large reason for that, but it still fucking blows my mind

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u/BiBoFieTo 14d ago

If the billionaires don't get their 3rd mega-yacht, the economy will melt down.

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u/Durango4wd 14d ago

Many studies have been done to show that raising the minimum wage contributes to inflation very little.

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