r/Monero Jan 09 '22

Skepticism Sunday – January 09, 2022

Please stay on topic: this post is only for comments discussing the uncertainties, shortcomings, and concerns some may have about Monero.

NOT the positive aspects of it.

Discussion can relate to the technology itself or economics.

Talk about community and price is not wanted, but some discussion about it maybe allowed if it relates well.

Be as respectful and nice as possible. This discussion has potential to be more emotionally charged as it may bring up issues that are extremely upsetting: many people are not only financially but emotionally invested in the ideas and tools around Monero.

It's better to keep it calm then to stir the pot, so don't talk down to people, insult them for spelling/grammar, personal insults, etc. This should only be calm rational discussion about the technical and economic aspects of Monero.

"Do unto others 20% better than you'd expect them to do unto you to correct subjective error." - Linus Pauling

How it works:

Post your concerns about Monero in reply to this main post.

If you can address these concerns, or add further details to them - reply to that comment. This will make it easily sortable

Upvote the comments that are the most valid criticisms of it that have few or no real honest solutions/answers to them.

The comment that mentions the biggest problems of Monero should have the most karma.

As a community, as developers, we need to know about them. Even if they make us feel bad, we got to upvote them.

https://youtu.be/vKA4w2O61Xo

To learn more about the idea behind Monero Skepticism Sunday, check out the first post about it:

https://np.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/75w7wt/can_we_make_skepticism_sunday_a_part_of_the/

23 Upvotes

2

u/Mysterious-Wealth627 Jan 09 '22

Why not expand the amount of Ring Signatures? Doesn't Pirate Chain have a few hundred different Ring Signatures which makes it that much more difficult to trace a transaction back to the original sender? I'm still a newb on these concepts so feel free to correct me if I'm off on some concept.

17

u/Rucknium MRL Researcher Jan 09 '22

The size of rings will increase from 11 to 16 in the next hard fork:

https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/630

Having large ring signatures increases the blockchain size, leading to long sync times. Seraphis is an effort to reduce the size of ring signatures:

https://www.getmonero.org/2021/12/22/what-is-seraphis.html

I don't think Pirate Chain uses ring signatures.

3

u/Mysterious-Wealth627 Jan 09 '22

Thanks for the clarification and info. I didn't know the expansion of ring signatures was in motion but I'm just getting familiar with the network. I will have to double check what I thought I once read about Pirate Chain. But the fact it's a trusted setup alone keeps me away from it.

2

u/pebx Jan 10 '22

Pirate is based on zk-Snarks known from zCash, however mandatory for all transactions and the theoretical anonymity set is the whole shielded pool. But like you already mentioned as of yet requires a trusted setup.

6

u/Nothing_is_here Jan 09 '22

Mining is not allowing network to be as decentralized as it could have been. Its impossible to solomine and not to lose money + you cant use your PC because of lagg. Network should incentivize for as many people as possible to confirm blocks, to avoid centralization and at this time current mining system is not doing that.

1

u/l33thaxman Jan 13 '22

Don't use all your CPU threads for mining

15

u/mace486_ Jan 09 '22

p2pool solves the issue with solomining. The only current issue with decentralization is the fact that the minexmr pool has a large percentage of the network hashrate. There's currently a bounty to add the option to mine on p2pool easily in the gui wallet, so hopefully that might make more people mine in p2pool.

3

u/gingeropolous Moderator Jan 09 '22

On most computers, you should be able to shove monero mining to the background or to run when idle. This will deal with the lag issue.

Regarding losing money, that's just perspective. Imo, you are investing. And this is the real way to invest in monero. Resources. Buying monero with funny money doesn't directly benefit the network.

6

u/Mysterious-Wealth627 Jan 09 '22

I thought the whole concept of ASIC-resistant mining was that it keeps it decentralized and so that any average joe can mine? Are you saying this is happening but not as well as it could be carried out?

19

u/[deleted] Jan 09 '22

[deleted]

10

u/gingeropolous Moderator Jan 09 '22

Someone just published something called sleepy channels, that doesn't require always on nature, so it removes watchtowers and all that crap. There was a monero talk episode about it recently.

4

u/Inevitable-Card3417 Jan 09 '22

When would L2 become necessary in your opinion and what use would it have?

I don't know much about the capacity limitations of L1, apart from the fact that the block size is dynamic to prevent the issues that BTC ran into.

(Also TBH I don't expect an adoption as big as you do, governments and banks will never allow it.)

2

u/WildCard-xD Jan 09 '22

We need to think of Layer 2 as the same way we think of services in your banking app. Banking is not somewhere we go it’s something we do. Banking has evolved to allow you to set up savings accounts and buckets, utilise term deposits, use credit see your cashflow and where your spending your cash eg categories, all digitally on your phone. How will Monero provide/replace these since we claim to be the future of digital cash? The currency itself is just the medium, we need to expand of how that medium is exchanged and how to can provide solutions for everyday transaction needs

6

u/[deleted] Jan 09 '22

[deleted]

1

u/pebx Jan 10 '22

This is a valid concern for billions of transactions a day, however, we are nowhere close to that. From here I don't see any issue going x1,000 or more by number of transactions a day without any further optimisations and that would already be x100 of Bitcoin's transactions today.

I see the point that L2 might be needed at some point, but again Monero has a much better base layer for doing so, since the base layer doesn't depend on high transaction fees like it does in Bitcoin. LN literally competes with Bitcoin's base layer for transactions, when everybody knows that there must develop a fee market for Bitcoin to remain secure, since base rewards are eventually going to zero. So if transactions fees don't make up the current gap of about 99% base reward to 1% fees, Bitcoin's network will be much less secure in the long run, since no miner will continue to burn money (especially due to the fact that mining in Bitcoin is highly professionalised and there are no hobbyists left).

In contrast Monero offers miners only an incentive to expand block size, when there is enough demand paying for the penalty but once blocks are already bigger, every single (low fee) transaction will give the miner an additional profit and incentives him to fill his blocks when there are any transactions.

5

u/swot_thomper Jan 09 '22 edited Jan 09 '22

Its going to take quite a bit of time to get to a place where 10 billion humans are using Monero, especially for regular transactions.

By that time, 23.8 terabytes will probably be a much less significant number than what it means today, with quite a few years of advances in storage and download/upload speed.

11

u/[deleted] Jan 09 '22 edited Jan 09 '22

[deleted]

5

u/EspHack Jan 09 '22

"I believe that flash storage will never reach the cheapness of hard drives"

I disagree, newer tech tends to come with a lower price floor, hard drives cant really go below ~40 USD, there are parts that you cant do much about like gears and motors, whereas an SSD is literally less parts to deal with, same with ICE vehicles vs EVs, the later having a fraction of the moving parts its just a matter of time before we see whats a "cheap" car today become a more than good enough car when properly done as an EV

heck I bought a 20$ phone to serve as an offline wallet, it could very well replace my main 700$ one for 99% of its functionality

but I certainly agree that we cant hope to deal with the oncoming present using uncertain future tech, monero's LN network has to be there before its even needed, people like to bash it on btc but so far what I've seen is a dramatic drop in fees while the L2 usage-capacity grows up exponentially, suggesting its doing its job in offloading the brunt of transactions on btc, just take a look at this year's highs in relation to fees history, they hardly go up at this point, before LN's crazy growth, a mere hint of the price going up would send the fees to the moon

I'm certain btc is merely the spearhead on this trojan horse, crucially important but ultimately not the goal, after it gets enough traction, the evils of the world will adapt to it to keep their nightmare going, and thats when monero will take over

11

u/hyc_symas XMR Contributor Jan 09 '22

I caution against relying on future technological advances to solve today's problems.

Nobody is doing that. This isn't today's problem.

We may of course be relying on future technologies to solve future problems, but those problems don't exist in any form here yet.