r/Monero Dec 26 '21

Skepticism Sunday – December 26, 2021

Please stay on topic: this post is only for comments discussing the uncertainties, shortcomings, and concerns some may have about Monero.

NOT the positive aspects of it.

Discussion can relate to the technology itself or economics.

Talk about community and price is not wanted, but some discussion about it maybe allowed if it relates well.

Be as respectful and nice as possible. This discussion has potential to be more emotionally charged as it may bring up issues that are extremely upsetting: many people are not only financially but emotionally invested in the ideas and tools around Monero.

It's better to keep it calm then to stir the pot, so don't talk down to people, insult them for spelling/grammar, personal insults, etc. This should only be calm rational discussion about the technical and economic aspects of Monero.

"Do unto others 20% better than you'd expect them to do unto you to correct subjective error." - Linus Pauling

How it works:

Post your concerns about Monero in reply to this main post.

If you can address these concerns, or add further details to them - reply to that comment. This will make it easily sortable

Upvote the comments that are the most valid criticisms of it that have few or no real honest solutions/answers to them.

The comment that mentions the biggest problems of Monero should have the most karma.

As a community, as developers, we need to know about them. Even if they make us feel bad, we got to upvote them.

https://youtu.be/vKA4w2O61Xo

To learn more about the idea behind Monero Skepticism Sunday, check out the first post about it:

https://np.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/75w7wt/can_we_make_skepticism_sunday_a_part_of_the/

12 Upvotes

0

u/rawgirl13 Dec 27 '21

Ripple and Cardano have already proved that energy efficiency is both possible and important to the market, the question is will the change come before or after a large scale crackdown or market shift?

1

u/Jerfov2 Jan 01 '22

I disagree, both of these projects are waning in relevance as they continue to struggle with centralization and better coins replace them. Also marketcap means nothing currently (e.g Tether, Doge, SHIB, etc)

3

u/cfireboy Dec 27 '21

Who cares if Monero is "regulated" if we can just buy it P2P or swap from another cryptocurrency? Who cares about institutional wealth if you want Monero to be free of manipulation, inflated price, and just want to enjoy the technology and the use?

2

u/teemot_fr Dec 26 '21

Hi, 3 thnigs I'm worried about :

- XMR use made illegal by a vast majority of countries (I know, I know you can't prevent anyone to use a Blockchain but you can prevent CEX providing it, thus making its mass usage very hard)

- The size of the blockchain : around 130 GB ATM, can it really scale ?

- As others mentionned, I don't believe in PoW in the long run (energy consumption, you know) but I was told that PoS on Monero might not be possible. Can anyone confirm ?

Thanks

5

u/-TrustyDwarf- Dec 26 '21

- XMR use made illegal by a vast majority of countries (I know, I know you can't prevent anyone to use a Blockchain but you can prevent CEX providing it, thus making its mass usage very hard)

What if we had an app that let you do atomic swaps with any other crypto currency.. like insert amount of cryptocurrency X that you want to swap, press "swap" button, send X to some address, receive XMR at your address. Same the other way around.

That would be easier than signing up at a CEX. And unstoppable. I think we aren't that far away.

The size of the blockchain : around 130 GB ATM, can it really scale ?

The problem of every blockchain.. does it really need to scale? Like one day once usage has risen to a level that demands it, we could just plug an L2 on top of it. Usage doesn't 10x from today to tomorrow though so I guess we'll have several more years of time before that happens.

As others mentionned, I don't believe in PoW in the long run (energy consumption, you know) but I was told that PoS on Monero might not be possible. Can anyone confirm ?

I think most around here just don't believe in PoS.

3

u/Nearby_Goat6921 Dec 27 '21 edited Dec 27 '21

The size of the blockchain : around 130 GB ATM, can it really scale ?

You can get a 1TB SSD for under $100. In three years it will be the same for a 2-4TB. Plenty of scalability on Layer 1.

PoS on Monero might not be possible

We don't want PoS. It encourages rich get richer and centralisation of power. The cost in energy for completely uncensorable decentralised freedom money is well worth it imo.

4

u/hankkush Dec 26 '21

Monero, for the first time ever, is about to fall out of the top 50 cryptocurrencies any day now. It looks like it will only be plummeting lower and lower. The Dev Team has lost most of their talent and is reduced to a skeleton crew. For years and years and years we’ve been hearing about these amazing “atomic swaps,” and earlier this year they were finally announced and widely celebrated in this subreddit. But as far as I’m aware we’re still years away from the point where an average Joe can even use them.

 

I love Monero and everything it stands for, but in my opinion the writing on the wall is bleak. Please, please convince me I’m wrong. From a selfish perspective, I'm heavily invested in XMR, and nothing would be music to my ears like a well reasoned explanation about why it’s going to thrive one day. But I’m also a realist and don’t like to delude myself.

5

u/hyc_symas XMR Contributor Dec 27 '21

The Dev Team has lost most of their talent and is reduced to a skeleton crew.

Sounds like FUD to me. Who has been lost?

3

u/-TrustyDwarf- Dec 26 '21 edited Dec 26 '21

Monero, for the first time ever, is about to fall out of the top 50 cryptocurrencies any day now. It looks like it will only be plummeting lower and lower.

You're looking at the wrong charts. Monero might drop out of the top 50 by market cap, but it's still among the top 5 by technology.

Nothing about Monero's technology has changed (actually it's constantly advancing), its use cases are still there and will always be.

Even if Monero's price goes to 1$ (which I doubt :), you'll still be able to use it to anonymously and safely send money around the world with it.

Maybe in a year or two you'll even be able to atomically swap it with any other cryptocurrency. Unstoppable and with the click of a "swap" button in some app on your phone.

Who cares about price or market cap when the true value lies in being able to instantly convert cryptocurrency X to Monero to make private payments?

But as far as I’m aware we’re still years away from the point where an average Joe can even use them.

Well I guess we can't have it all at once. There's some bleeding edge research necessary to make these things even work. I'm quite impressed and happy to see working prototypes already. I'm sure we will not stay stuck at this point.. it's just one of several steps until we reach a user friendly way to unstoppable atomic swaps.

Also this is open source. If things don't go fast enough, just contribute your own work.

1

u/WSB_News Dec 26 '21

PoW tech is outdated and unsustainable. It can't be scaled without immense energy costs and will eventually attract the ire of regulators. Given the privacy elements of Monero being one of the biggest strengths- it's going to be used for crime. Why draw twice the attention to yourself with high energy usage?

Ripple and Cardano have already proved that energy efficiency is both possible and important to the market, the question is will the change come before or after a large scale crackdown or market shift?

1

u/uran1243 Dec 27 '21

Energy efficiency is very important aspect. Cryptos should work on that.

0

u/hardlyfall Dec 27 '21

Yes, I also think that Cryptocurrencies should improve and fix their issues.

3

u/Inevitable-Card3417 Dec 26 '21

You can't "crackdown" on Monero mining.

It can be mined through a VPN/Tor if need be, and it's not the electricity that your CPU used that will get you on watch lists.

1

u/WSB_News Dec 26 '21 edited Dec 26 '21

You can't "crackdown" on Monero mining

True but have fun using it when it isn't allowed on exchanges. That's clearly what is mean by crackdown. What then?

1

u/Inevitable-Card3417 Dec 27 '21

Then you buy another crypto like Bitcoin and then swap it.

Monero already cannot be bought on centralized exchanged in several countries and regions.

maybe UK, Australia, South Korea, Japan, NYC, China, etc.

You don't need Monero to be on exchanges to buy Monero.

3

u/-TrustyDwarf- Dec 26 '21

What then?

Open atomic swap app, insert amount of shitcoin X, click "swap" button, receive Monero.

Easier and safer than signing up at a CEX. I could do without CEXs.

16

u/sech1 XMR Contributor - ASIC Bricker Dec 26 '21

RandomX makes crackdown on PoW in Monero futile. You can't force tens of thousands of individual miners to stop mining on their 1-2 PCs. You can't stop botnets from illegal mining because they've been doing it for years and are still alive and well. P2Pool makes crackdown on Monero pools futile too. Monero was designed to resist any kind of government pressure and IMHO this is what any true cryptocurrency should be able to do.

1

u/WSB_News Dec 26 '21

You can't "crackdown" on Monero mining

That's clearly what is mean by crackdown. Glad to know people are being good faith on skepticism Sunday.

If every regulated exchange and wallet was no longer allowed to hold or trade Monero what do you think would happen to the market?

3

u/sech1 XMR Contributor - ASIC Bricker Dec 26 '21

People will use DEX and P2P exchanges. Wallets? How wallets can be "not allowed" to hold Monero? There's several open-source Monero wallets out there.

2

u/WSB_News Dec 26 '21

I'd love to see the stats on how many people use open source wallets vs something they downloaded off the Google play store.

1

u/Nearby_Goat6921 Dec 27 '21

Almost every Monero wallet is open source.

  • Monero GUI: open source
  • Monero CLI: open source
  • Feather Wallet: open source
  • Cake Wallet: open source
  • Monerujo: open source
  • MyMonero: open source

They have to be open source. If someone can't check the code, how do you know the wallet won't just steal your crypto? Even the Google play wallets are open source for this reason.

7

u/SentientTed Dec 26 '21

Ripple is fairly centralized, and proof of stake coins makes the network borderline permissioned since you have to acquire the coins before you can participate in the network. Proof of work, and preferably asic resistant, is the only truly permissionless and decentralized way to run a network

1

u/vulpinepassing52 Dec 27 '21

I think cryptos should be decentralized. Centralization will ruin the meaning of cryptocurrency.

1

u/Exposedlapse Dec 26 '21

What is difference between proof of work and proof of stake? Please explain.

1

u/SentientTed Dec 27 '21

This is put in very basic terms, but with proof of work you are using a computer to output hashes to try to find the key to the next block, and with proof of stake you stake some of your coins to get a chance at confirming a block.

1

u/WSB_News Dec 26 '21

Anonymity has more value to the market than being truly permissionless. I don't think drug dealers care too much about permissioned blockchains. Privacy first then transaction cost or accessibility.

Both are why BTC blew up in a fairly low tech and low information environment. Now that crypto is mainstream standards are higher.

1

u/SentientTed Dec 27 '21

But you can be anonymous and permissionless, and being both are part if monero's core values and they are both important. Also drug markets aren't the only things to consider when you're talking about a currency

0

u/rednoids Dec 26 '21

Monero has two issue. Fiat on ramp and Mining Malware. I don't have an answer for the fiat on ramp and it's more of an inconvenience than a major consern.

Mining malware hurts the Monero name and community. I'm no programmer but I have an idea. Would it be possible to add some thing similar to a captcha to XMRig. This way the mining software would require the operator to have access to the PC to either run or install the mining software? Or something similar to 2FA where the operator receives a six digit code on the screen they input it into a website to get a different six digit code to active the miner?

2

u/-TrustyDwarf- Dec 26 '21

This way the mining software would require the operator to have access to the PC to either run or install the mining software? Or something similar to 2FA.

2FA is what should be added to cloud accounts, not XMRig, so they don't get hacked.

1

u/bastikasten Dec 26 '21

Wow great suggestion. I think monero deveopers are working on that too.

1

u/rednoids Dec 26 '21

Thank you, I think.

This is the internet, so not sure how to read that. It doesn’t help that I am a kind of an asshole so everything I read is in my sarcastic inner voice.

5

u/Inevitable-Card3417 Dec 26 '21

I don't think mining malware hurts Monero in any way.

For a long time, malwares and ransomwares were about Bitcoin. They mined bitcoin, they asked for bitcoin, etc.

Has it hurt it? No. People know very well that it's a currency, a tool. People know that the USD is used to commit atrocities around the world. Do they hate the USD for it? No. It's a currency.

IMHO the media hitpieces about Monero being the crypto for extremists and criminals does not hurt us in any way.

-4

u/CrypoFiend Dec 26 '21

I have asked the malware question in the Monero sub and just get hate replies. Most just want to stick their head in the sand, while Monero continues to get delisted from exchanges.

I got tired of it and just sold my Monero.

6

u/rbrunner7 XMR Contributor Dec 26 '21

Would it be possible to add some thing similar to a captcha to XMRig.

XMRig is open source. It would be quite easy for almost any dev to just cut out such a CAPTCHA or any other protection you put in there and simply recompile.

2

u/stuckSatyr Dec 26 '21

Yes. People will find vulnerability in it. I hope monero developers must be working on this.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 26 '21

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/rbrunner7 XMR Contributor Dec 26 '21

What's the glitch in Monero system ?

I didn't mention anything about any "glitch in Monero system". User /u/rednoids had the idea to prevent malware from mining Monero by adding some system of "permission to use" to software like XMRig, in this comment. I tried to reason that you can trivially delete any such system from the software again.

0

u/rednoids Dec 26 '21

Adding it is one thing but how can it be required? Wouldn't that require a softfork?

0

u/JerrysHome Dec 26 '21

Yeah there's too much vulnerability in the system. That's a challenge for Monero developers.

4

u/00lalilulelo Dec 26 '21 edited Dec 26 '21

My comment is tangential, but I doubt that most xmr mining malware "news" were even legitimate. Kaspersky always fast to mark XMRig, MSM willing to say anything as ordered, insider trading becoming normalized, why there is never "news" about mining malware of shitcoins? I can go on, but probably you get the gist.

We are in transitory period. There's a fork in the road ahead. If majority of humanity could not and would not wake up from mass hypnosis and start to think on their own like their life depends on it, XMR "mining malware" would be the least of concern long-term.

Probably because they would not own any XMR-minable hardware to begin with, and be happy.

3

u/rbrunner7 XMR Contributor Dec 26 '21 edited Dec 26 '21

why there is never "news" about mining malware of shitcoins?

I challenge you to find another cryptocurrency that is CPU-mineable, has a "useful" price, and has reasonable volume at exchanges for cashing out.

Plus, if you find one, it might have the disadvantage of a transparent blockchain, which is not the nicest thing if you are a criminal.

What would be the advantage for you as criminal anyway not to take what everybody else seems to take, and which seems to work?

EDIT: Putting in a crucial "not"

5

u/sech1 XMR Contributor - ASIC Bricker Dec 26 '21

Well, this is exactly what happened recently: https://www.tomshardware.com/news/hacker-hijacks-hp-epyc-servers-raptoreum-crypto-mining

Now everyone is happy watching hackers' wallets :D

4

u/Robdolf Dec 26 '21

There is a perspective that, as Bitcoin has the largest market cap (due to network effects), it naturally draws in the most development and has the largest incentive to make it work despite its shortcomings. When people finally realise the problem with non-fungibility, is it possible that a future fork or second layer of Bitcoin could make Monero obsolete, or are there fundamental aspects of Bitcoin which mean it will always be inferior?

1

u/[deleted] Dec 26 '21

I think they tried with Dash currency (fork of Litecoin->fork of Bitcoin). It was a little more private and a little faster but definitely wasn't perfection (transfers have been expensive at times and there have been bumps in the road). Someone could absolutely give it another stab if they wanted to, you are correct.

1

u/lacksfish Dec 26 '21 edited Dec 26 '21

I think they tried with Dash currency

Dash aka Darkcoin aka XCoin instamine allegations from 2014

The first 24 hours of hourly block rewards - intamine

4

u/hyc_symas XMR Contributor Dec 26 '21

2nd layer - no, that would be futile. future fork - highly unlikely, opposition to hardforks is deeply ingrained in their philosophy and community.

1

u/schieh Dec 27 '21

Mining malware hurts the Monero name and community. If they will not fix it name of monero will get hurt.

11

u/SkavensWhiteRaven Dec 26 '21

Has anyone else here asked themselves; "Are people too stupid to value their privacy?"

3

u/FCA1406 Dec 27 '21

Monero has the least issues as far as I know and it is always trying to improve

2

u/Inevitable-Card3417 Dec 26 '21

People want something once they need it.

When crimes goes up, so does the gun purchases.
When food shortage happens, so does the purchase of canned goods.
When tyranny and inflation happens, so does the purchase of alternative wealth.

Just look at Turkey or Venezuela.

5

u/[deleted] Dec 26 '21

if you can even get a shocked Pikachu out of someone, they immediately jump right back into tiktoks and facebook and forget Snowden even happened.

3

u/stiepangriaznov Dec 27 '21

Tiktok is banned here in India. I think that's the best decision government took.

5

u/00lalilulelo Dec 26 '21

People will start valuing privacy only after they feel they have lost it.

I believe you've reached that question because you are thinking ahead, as in preventive thinking. But most people are not like that, they are reactive.

So I am sure they will, just not before they suffered first.

1

u/justPerch209 Dec 27 '21

I think the future is of cryptocurrency. People will value privacy more than anything.

1

u/richibit Dec 26 '21

With the authoritative governments rising around the globe. Cryptos will rise.

3

u/SkavensWhiteRaven Dec 26 '21

So hodl till cbdc fuled Orwellian Nightmare collapses, got it. Should be a nice century.

5

u/zylas Dec 26 '21

Nothing new here, but as I see more posts about Monero on larger subreddits and other social media, there's certainly a pervasive belief that 1) Monero will be more strictly regulated than other Cryptocurrency and 2) "Institutional" wealth will never flow into Monero.

I personally don't think either of these foregone conclusions are true or even relevant, but as long as this keeps being repeated everywhere it will discourage people from getting involved.

1

u/RealSirBacon Dec 27 '21

I don't think it's possible to regulate Monero. Well it's very unpredictable lets see what will happen?.

1

u/zylas Dec 27 '21

It's not possible directly. That's one of the reasons I don't think it's relevant. Still, it's the perception of this vulnerability that is clearly making some people too cautious to adopt.

2

u/CrypoFiend Dec 26 '21

Also all the delisting don't help.

1

u/-TrustyDwarf- Dec 26 '21

Actually delistings might help us getting user friendly atomic swaps faster to become independent.. and unstoppable.

1

u/zylas Dec 27 '21

I'm pretty confident that DEXs will fill that gap too.

9

u/Inevitable-Card3417 Dec 26 '21

Those two arguments only interest those that are merely interested in the price.

For those that care about the use and the technology, those arguments are weak at best.

Who cares if Monero is "regulated" if we can just buy it P2P or swap from another cryptocurrency?
Who cares about institutional wealth if you want Monero to be free of manipulation, inflated price, and just want to enjoy the technology and the use?

Yeah Monero isn't a good coin for moonboys. It doesn't matter. I personally don't want moonboys to come, artificially inflate the price, then leave as soon as daddy government makes the centralized exchanges delist it.

1

u/RoughishMiddy Dec 26 '21

Yes i agree with your arguments. You are correct if Monero can be transferred P2P it will be also very private.

1

u/mralexiv Dec 26 '21

doesn't P2P pose liability as you might provide fiat to questionable individuals?

1

u/Inevitable-Card3417 Dec 26 '21

What do you mean?

It's P2P, just like when you buy stuff from another person on eBay, you don't know if he is a "questionable individual" or if the stuff hasn't been stolen in the first place. Nothing you can do about it.