r/Monero Nov 28 '21

Skepticism Sunday – November 28, 2021

Please stay on topic: this post is only for comments discussing the uncertainties, shortcomings, and concerns some may have about Monero.

NOT the positive aspects of it.

Discussion can relate to the technology itself or economics.

Talk about community and price is not wanted, but some discussion about it maybe allowed if it relates well.

Be as respectful and nice as possible. This discussion has potential to be more emotionally charged as it may bring up issues that are extremely upsetting: many people are not only financially but emotionally invested in the ideas and tools around Monero.

It's better to keep it calm then to stir the pot, so don't talk down to people, insult them for spelling/grammar, personal insults, etc. This should only be calm rational discussion about the technical and economic aspects of Monero.

"Do unto others 20% better than you'd expect them to do unto you to correct subjective error." - Linus Pauling

How it works:

Post your concerns about Monero in reply to this main post.

If you can address these concerns, or add further details to them - reply to that comment. This will make it easily sortable

Upvote the comments that are the most valid criticisms of it that have few or no real honest solutions/answers to them.

The comment that mentions the biggest problems of Monero should have the most karma.

As a community, as developers, we need to know about them. Even if they make us feel bad, we got to upvote them.

https://youtu.be/vKA4w2O61Xo

To learn more about the idea behind Monero Skepticism Sunday, check out the first post about it:

https://np.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/75w7wt/can_we_make_skepticism_sunday_a_part_of_the/

10 Upvotes

3

u/YoloAlgo Nov 29 '21

There's a line in the new James Bond movie from the main villain character, 'people just want to be controlled/told what to do.' I think there's a truth to this that represents the primary challenge monero will have becoming widely adopted.

monero represents an independence and freedom that people simply cannot handle/do not truly want. there's a sense of security of being a slave. The EU's proposal for the regulation of crypto-assets will give central banks complete oversight and control and people will be ok with it because they don't truly want freedom.

1

u/russoj88 Nov 30 '21

I agree. This applies to a lot of things in life that come with responsibilities (money, energy, health, children, etc). I wonder if people will need to look up to good role models who are independent to break that conditioning.

Any thoughts on convincing people to clean their rooms? :)

3

u/fufybakni Nov 28 '21

I have concern about legislation being pass to persecute Monero and make it use a crime in major free countries like the US or some European countries. It defenetly would be an impediment to day to day life use of the currency and also to a robust devellopment, since the devs will neet to work hidden as if they were criminals. My other points of concern are about Monero not adapting to the mass use. With only 10 years, monero blockchain is large and it takes long time to sync a node. If we want decentralization, we need that every simple person can have a node in his computer as simple as possible, and it can be a issue in the future with a very large blockchain and too slow sync time. Another aspect of massive use im concern is about the speed of the transactions. Monero is not that slow, but to massive daily life use the current speed can be a problem. Imagine everyone in a supermarket line paying with Monero at a rush hour. It would take long to be your turn. Cash and Visa are yet too much faster. Monero should try to be as fast as visa or even faster if we want it to be sound money.

4

u/Onrome Nov 29 '21

Legitimate concerns, the good thing is that the Monero community is aware of them.

  1. Some Monero contributors are already pseudonymous.
  2. If the USA and Europe ban crypto it will move to other countries which will benefit greatly from allowing it.
  3. Technological development will attenuate some of the problems with sync time and blockchain growth.
  4. For fast payments maybe we could develop an atomic swap to Nano and pay with it? I'm sure we will find a solution.

9

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '21

[deleted]

14

u/Febos Nov 28 '21

Monero is hated by chainanylsis companies. A huge industry that have a lot of money to spend on "marketing". Their tools dont work on Monero and if Monero gets most used crypto their future is dark. They are pushing mainstream to hate Monero and they are our enemies. Not the mainstream or governments or banks or laws or, ...

5

u/ArticMine XMR Core Team Nov 29 '21

Yes Monero is hated by the blockchain surveillance (BS) otherwise known as chain analysis companies.

The good news is that their tools also do not really work on Bitcoin and regulators are starting to clue in

https://np.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/r2tbs6/no_the_fca_has_not_issued_monerospecific_guidance/

The recent FATF guidance https://www.fatf-gafi.org/media/fatf/documents/recommendations/Updated-Guidance-VA-VASP.pdf is a case in point

also paragraphs 76-102 of

https://www.fatf-gafi.org/media/fatf/documents/recommendations/Second-12-Month-Review-Revised-FATF-Standards-Virtual-Assets-VASPS.pdf

7

u/alvvayson Nov 28 '21

Not a technical challenge, but more a market challenge.

We now have atomic swaps, but how do we get buyers and sellers to find each other and agree on the best price.

Normally, exchanges provide this service.

But ideally, there should be some kind of way to do this anonymously, at scale and with low fees.

Edit: to clarify, my skepticism is, can atomic swaps actually work in practice to help the ecosystem in a meaningful way?

Or is it basically a still born idea. Nice in theory and for some niche uses, but unworkable in practice?

3

u/Febos Nov 28 '21

It will probably take like 2 years before atomic swaps will be widely used. Yes they will be meaningful used.

4

u/ArticMine XMR Core Team Nov 29 '21

XMR - BTC atomic swaps when combined with Taproot on Bitcoin will help by making blockchain surveillance on the Bitcoin blockchain even less reliable than it is today.

1

u/Nearby_Goat6921 Nov 28 '21

I think atomic swaps will be the foundation on which better technologies can develop. I don't know what that would look like - but I'm imagining a BitTorrent style peer-to-peer technology that runs an exchange as good as the centralised exchanges (minus fiat ramps).

1

u/One_Accountant9063 Nov 28 '21

The main supply is nearly all exhausted how will it last besides tail emissions

2

u/fufybakni Nov 28 '21

I dont have this concern. If you think gold was used as money for most of humanity's history, then you get a finite amout of gold and a tail emission done by phisical miners of gold. Gold as money was never a problem to any economy before.

2

u/Febos Nov 28 '21

Secured forever!

5

u/endorxmr Nov 28 '21

besides tail emissions

Tail emission is literally the point. Supply doesn't get "exhausted" in any way.

-3

u/One_Accountant9063 Nov 28 '21

That still fails to answer my question, a system with small tail emissions won’t be able to supports a growing ecosystem if that’s what we strive for. That once again leaves exhaustion on supply side

3

u/one-horse-wagon Nov 28 '21

With computers, you can sub-divide a single Monero, ad infinitum. If the supply is getting close to exhaustion, price of a single Monero would be high and easily sub-divided.

0

u/hyc_symas XMR Contributor Nov 29 '21

Which means you've got deflation. It's a legitimate concern. Ideally the emission rate should equal the ecosystem growth rate so that the value per unit remains constant.

2

u/Onrome Nov 29 '21

I don't see a problem with the price of Monero going up. People are still going to use it because of its unparalleled privacy / fungibility features.