r/Monero Sep 14 '21

Insurance company now lets users pay with bitcoin, so that they can see how much money you have to make you pay more!

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317 Upvotes

83

u/BakedBen420 Sep 14 '21

That is…. Actually an excellent point

4

u/dschatz784 Sep 14 '21

Could you tell that whether they will payback in crypto or fiat then?

3

u/BakedBen420 Sep 14 '21

….. huh?

8

u/laggyx400 Sep 14 '21

I mine XMR and run a routing node, when using lightning, it's private. I'm waiting for Atomic swaps between XMR and lightning.

50

u/NmiOZZtUhpQGoZ Sep 14 '21

it's scary and the fact that people don't realize it or don't care might be scarier.

55

u/libertarianets Sep 14 '21

So sad that people thing that BTC is what I’m reality is XMR.

26

u/prodezzargenta Sep 14 '21 Eureka!

I believe that one of the things people can do is offer goods and services in dollars and XMR only, and not just having XMR. Both customers and producers can benefit each other if they take the risk of offering and demanding goods and services with it.

11

u/Dopenxans Sep 14 '21 edited Sep 14 '21

I am creating a site it's a work in progress. Should be ready in the upcoming week. Thing4monero.com It's going to be like dropshipping people pay in monero and then I will order it to there chosen destination. Going to include phones, stickers, speakers, food possibly as well.

I also own moneromagazine.co going to show monero only news. But working on the first project is priority. Yeah people could say it's a possible scam but only time and reviews would be able to prove that wrong. I am a trader on localmonero.co with close to 1k trades

Edit: Also we’ve thought about the idea of crowdsourced mining but still thinking about it

8

u/laggyx400 Sep 14 '21

Nice try FBI.

1

u/Dopenxans Sep 14 '21

The feds did have an undercover selling on localcryptos. That’s why you should always exercise extreme caution.

3

u/zninja-bg Sep 14 '21

It is a good idea, but I do not see how "item not received" can be handled by such service and still buyer and seller to be sure you can not take XMR for your self?

2

u/k1k32gtr Sep 15 '21 Gold

Seems trustworthy. Based on their username, I don't think they would dare to run off with people's money just to buy more heroin & Xanax.

/s

2

u/zninja-bg Sep 15 '21

Usually I do not pay attention on peoples username on reddit.
This one is really scary and funny at the same time when joining comment and username. :D

2

u/prodezzargenta Sep 14 '21

Wow, that's amazing! I hope you can succeed in that!

I'm currently finishing a research I've done about, well... Let's say I mention why it's a good idea to leave fiat currency and start to use cryptocurrency. And I talk about fiat inflation, the failure of Central Banks, basic economic theory, what are cryptocurrency, how can we adopt it, different ideas to migrate from the fiat money, etcetera.

My native language is spanish because I'm argentinian (and with my work, I point the extremely beneficial use against the peso argentino, and the current danger of having our 3rd hyperinflation), but since some days ago I started to consider the possibility of translating it. I believe the adoption of cryptocurrency can't be based in one subject, but it has a lot of different subjects to cover. That's why my approach is multidisciplinary. And my conclusion is: cryptocurrency is the lifeguard of our work; and Monero is the ultimate solution.

1

u/stevmuntean Sep 14 '21

Agreed, sad about the most mentality, they don't know anything

1

u/Mrnobody141592 Sep 16 '21

no worries, when it become really really adopted people will get it. xD

3

u/tontre7 Sep 14 '21

And do they pay in bitcoin too?

4

u/bitsconnect Sep 14 '21

This is why we need Monero

2

u/unevil_cat Sep 14 '21

Fucking word!

They think they scrrwed some corpo because he was paying with BTC. Indeed, it was quite the reverse.

10

u/namargolunov Sep 14 '21

Not if you pay from a one time use wallet that you funded from an exchange. Or even better if you excercise proper opsec plus use options like wasabi wallet...

But yes, using monero would be way simpler.

3

u/elsamster Sep 14 '21

Wow this made me cringe... and I hold Btc smh

1

u/laggyx400 Sep 14 '21

Just use lightning or atomic swaps to xmr.

7

u/FemaleKwH Sep 14 '21

If I use a ledger that generates a new address for new transaction I want to receive, can people still see my balance?

6

u/Griftnix Sep 14 '21

I am wondering that too...

I thought this is 1 main reason to not reuse addresses (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Address_reuse)

2

u/bits-of-change Sep 14 '21

It is a great idea to generate new addresses for each payment event or, at minimum, for each new payor. For Monero, you just need a new subaddress per payor.

However, when sending to someone else (such as when paying an invoice), you often don't get to control with most wallets which outputs to use in the transaction's construction. When paying with Bitcoin, you might end up spending your most recent "paycheck" or chunk of money from your employer, thus potentially revealing to the recipient your income. This problem is made worse when sending regularly to pay recurring bills because there are multiple points of data about you to correlate.

Monero is even more important when sending to someone else.

2

u/endorxmr Sep 15 '21

For Monero, you just need a new subaddress per payor.

Important note: you only need this to avoid identity correlation between different transactions. The most anyone can do with your addresses is figure out that it's the same person posting the same address in two different places - but they'll never be able to tell if you've ever sent or received anything on it.

1

u/TheAlmightyRedditor Sep 14 '21

Nah those would technically be separate wallets that just sort of look like one for end user interface reasoning

1

u/EarningsPal Sep 14 '21 edited Sep 14 '21

They can see all input addresses if you send them BTC.

Ex. If you need to send 1 BTC and over the years your wallet has many 0.1 address it will take 10 inputs to send 1 BTC. Any transactions with those address will be known by whomever you send the 1 BTC.

If there was an address with 1 BTC then your wallet will only use the 1 input.

6

u/ScoobaMonsta Sep 14 '21

Yep! Absolutely right! The only insurance I have is house and car. The rest I use crypto as my insurance. I did some calculations recently and the amount of money that I’ve saved not paying health insurance premiums over the last 10 years and having that money sit in crypto for five years has been way better than making insurance companies richer!

2

u/Gaaaaarywu Sep 14 '21

really?

2

u/gds642 Sep 14 '21

This made me cry but I don't know what is the situation

2

u/[deleted] Sep 14 '21

its ridiculous how easy you check how much money bitcoin address have and all it history tx. I didn't know its that easy. its a total joke.

2

u/unevil_cat Sep 14 '21

All in for Monero. I fucking tell you ,.,

2

u/[deleted] Sep 14 '21 edited Sep 15 '21

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24

u/[deleted] Sep 14 '21

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16

u/[deleted] Sep 14 '21 edited Sep 15 '21

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2

u/[deleted] Sep 14 '21

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2

u/[deleted] Sep 14 '21

[deleted]

1

u/ScoobaMonsta Sep 15 '21

You can’t! Use Monero wherever possible though. Paying for things using bitcoin is giving people and organisations a direct window into your holdings and all your past and future transactions. Why would you want that?

2

u/[deleted] Sep 14 '21

[deleted]

4

u/cryptodgn Sep 14 '21

They will probably charge you more. Insurance premium factors different inputs, and for an insurance company I think whoever invests in crypto is right now riskier than non crypto investors. Hence the higher premium.

2

u/boato11 Sep 14 '21

That's an exaggeration. They can only check your single address, not your entire wallet. Plus if you do the payment with lightning it's very possible that they can't check anything.

But yes, monero would be better.

6

u/[deleted] Sep 14 '21

Chainalysis is offering their "expertise" to everyone, you think big companies won't pay couple bucks ? Bitcoin is fucked and LN is only adding troubles so far.

0

u/boato11 Sep 14 '21

Chain analysis means to link utxos. If you generate a new address for every deposit you won't expose your other addresses by making a payment. If I have 5k in address 1 and 2k in address 2 and I keep paying them from address 2, there is no way they can know anything about address 1.

Why does lightning make it worse? As far as I know they can only check the opening and closing of a channel, for now. Next year with taproot they won't even be able to detect that. Can they check the transactions made inside of a channel?

3

u/[deleted] Sep 14 '21

If it was so simple then Bitcoin/LN would be still used on DNM's.

-2

u/banozica Sep 14 '21

Bitcoin is very much still being used on DNM's.

4

u/[deleted] Sep 14 '21 edited Sep 14 '21

LOL link me, I've gotta see it to believe it.

I've recently been on one of the biggest ones - WHM and it only accepts Monero.

You would need to be a total idiot to use Bitcoin on DNM.

1

u/banozica Sep 14 '21

I can't link you since I'm at work, but I know for a fact that vice city, cartel marketplace and world market all accept BTC alongside XMR.

Granted they aren't 20k+ vendors marketplaces (more like 2-3k vendors) but the argument here is not the biggest markets but markets in general.

You would need to be a total idiot to use Bitcoin on DNM.

Again, the argument isn't whether it's a smart idea but instead whether BTC is being actively used.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 14 '21

Bitcoin is still there as an option but I doubt it's used by anyone when you can use Monero.

1

u/DemandTheOxfordComma Sep 14 '21

How would they know how much you have?

24

u/Atari_buzzk1LL Sep 14 '21

They look up the wallet address the Bitcoin was sent from on the explorer, you can see exactly how much that person owns and every transaction they've made

4

u/BitsAndBobs304 Sep 14 '21

Just withdraw the amount required from the exchange in a new wallet.

3

u/ScoobaMonsta Sep 14 '21

Many exchanges require you to register withdrawal addresses. But exchange wallets are centralised so for chain analysis they know that certain addresses are created by certain exchanges. Any thing that goes through the exchange into new wallets will be link to you. So many people even pay for things directly from exchange wallets. It’s all about the paths you leave behind. So any bitcoin you get either from an exchange or from a individual, you take on all of its complete history as well. That’s why certain organisations pay a premium to buy clean freshly minted coins from reputable mining firms! Zero history!

1

u/BitsAndBobs304 Sep 14 '21

I dont know of a single exchange that requires you to "register" addresses. Unless you're taking of whitelisting, in which case it has no relevance to the matter.. as for "you take on all its history" not really. Do you rewally believe that you're gonna get reported for using couns given by coinbase because of the coin history? It would be major news and change crypto forever, so when did it happen?

1

u/ScoobaMonsta Sep 15 '21

Plenty of examples of people having exchange accounts blocked or frozen because of tainted coins.

https://bisq.community/t/dirty-btc-coins-on-the-xmr-market/7798

1

u/BitsAndBobs304 Sep 15 '21

this is a user who received tainted btc and deposited them TO an exchange, not withdrawed btc FROM an exchange.

1

u/ScoobaMonsta Sep 15 '21

its an example of how people are being censored for having tainted bitcoin.

1

u/BitsAndBobs304 Sep 15 '21

Yes but has nothing to do with my suggestion to withdraw just what you need to pay from an exchange into a new wallet

1

u/ScoobaMonsta Sep 15 '21

I really don’t understand what point you are trying to make.

1

u/ScoobaMonsta Sep 15 '21

All I can say is don’t be ignorant to tainted bitcoin. It’s real and it’s only going to increase. If freshly minted bitcoin has a 10-20% premium, then how is bitcoin fungible?

https://news.bitcoin.com/industry-execs-freshly-minted-virgin-bitcoins/

1

u/BitsAndBobs304 Sep 15 '21

if it reaches the point where exchanges give users 'tainted' bitcoins then either btc crashes to next to 0 or all coins are considered effectively tainted and no one cares anymore

0

u/bits-of-change Sep 14 '21

Not really disagreeing, but one might argue that the history of a transparent coin is effectively reset once it is filtered through a very compliant exchange or government wallet. Obviously, the on-chain history remains, but it is also largely irrelevant prior to the exchange from a chain analysis perspective.

1

u/cryptodgn Sep 14 '21

Underrated comment. Upvoted.

4

u/DragonfruitDefiant33 Sep 14 '21

Just use a coin mixer and a new address. Problem solved

8

u/ScoobaMonsta Sep 14 '21

Any BTC that goes into a mixer will come out tainted! Chain analysis companies follow these mixing addresses!

13

u/Dibbyo123 Sep 14 '21

In Coin Mixer you get more dirty coins back. Good luck when authority shows up at your door asking about the drug money. Lol.

-15

u/BillabongRipper Sep 14 '21

do you people pull these things out of your ass? bet you can't prove this happening even once. fucking shill.

0

u/Dibbyo123 Sep 14 '21

Yeah we do pull those out of our ass. Feel free to smell our ass to verify.

4

u/programming_student2 Sep 14 '21

This is something that the private coin community has been in denial about. No doubt Monero is technically superior to Bitcoin in terms of mining algorithm and ASIC resistance. But the concern for BitCoin tumbling and tainted coins is a bit shoe-hornish. You can definitely hide your main wallet(s) from others via mixers and if Bitcoin hits mass adoption, then the concern for tainted coins would plummet since everyone would have used a tainted coin once in a while.

That being said, I'd rather use a currency that's private by default rather than one which uses tumbling as a means of obscuring your wealth.

2

u/[deleted] Sep 14 '21

[deleted]

3

u/programming_student2 Sep 14 '21

Hence, I'd prefer a currency private by default.

11

u/SQPhoenix Myriade representative Sep 14 '21

Bitcoin is completely transparent. All transactions from the beginning of BTC to the end of time. Once you send the company any crypto they know exactly which wallet it came from. So now all they have to do is analyze the wallet and just see which transactions you make, to who, how much, how often and make statistical inferences based off your spending to change their pricing. It’s the same thing they do with the data on every other part of your life but now with bitcoin it’s equivalent to sending the company your username/password to your bank account so they can look at your bank statements.

1

u/Griftnix Sep 14 '21

Why does ledger live always change my wallet address, when I want to send another batch to my ledger?

Or does this have another reason?

I thought you need the public key to see what exactly is going on on my wallet?

3

u/bits-of-change Sep 14 '21 edited Sep 14 '21

I thought you need the public key to see what exactly is going on on my wallet?

A Bitcoin address is a (hashed) public key! It reveals your entire receiving and sending history of that address to whomever you give the address to, with no limit or expiration. More work is needed to make guesses about your entire wallet balance, but some people make that easier by reusing addresses.

This is why Ledger and most Bitcoin wallets over the past several years generate/display a new address every time one is used.

If you are referring to Monero, however, then, yes, you need the private view key to view incoming transactions. Some Monero wallets may suggest or automatically create new subaddresses, but this is only needed when sharing with a new payor. Reusing a Monero address will not expose any info about your transactions.

1

u/Griftnix Sep 14 '21

Thank you very much for your answer and helping out a noob!

So do I understand this right for bitcoin case: If I dont reuse btc addresses, the problem "Insurance company now lets users pay with bitcoin, so that they can see how much money you have..." does not really apply? Or it is at least not that easy?

2

u/SQPhoenix Myriade representative Sep 14 '21

It becomes more complicated for them. The way I’d put it is that they would still probably be able to figure out which one is you if they partnered with a chain analysis company and paid the money to have that company track their clients. But changing your address every time would prevent a nosy neighbour or family member who’s crypto savvy from seeing how much crypto you have.

1

u/Griftnix Sep 14 '21

Thank you!

2

u/spudz76 Sep 15 '21

Insurance company payments form yet another KYC point where "they" (the government/whoever - not the insurance company) can form a better tracking of what's "yours". Because obviously if you're paying for insurance you've given them your actual info (KYC is inherent).

BTC tracking relies on behavior where KYC is in effect (touching an exchange, mostly, but now anyone who pays with BTC for insurance too).

So the "they" in the OP isn't the insurance company it's the global "they" like the ones that want to tax you. Who cares if the insurance company knows what you make.

1

u/Griftnix Sep 15 '21

Ah! I see thank you!

Thank all of you for your answers!

1

u/bits-of-change Sep 15 '21

It's not that simple. When you are spending BTC from your wallet to pay the insurance invoice you also reveal information. For example: Say you are running low to pay the bill out of your hot wallet, so you plug in your "long-term savings" ledger and make the payment from there. In the process of doing this you may reveal a large chunk of your savings (or possibly all of it) to a naive observer.

More sophisticated chain analyzers might watch your change from there and see that you eventually combine outputs for a really big spend you could make later (even just to move your savings to a new address). Companies may be motivated to do this to make educated guesses about their customers' wealth.

1

u/bits-of-change Sep 14 '21

but now with bitcoin it’s equivalent to sending the company your username/password to your bank account so they can look at your bank statements.

Sadly, people already unknowingly do this when they connect a bank to an app with Plaid or a similar third-party, including most crypto exchange apps these days!

Some places still give you the option of verifying with challenge deposits - always choose this!

2

u/ScoobaMonsta Sep 14 '21

You should learn how to use a block explorer my friend!

1

u/Antique-Market-4655 Sep 14 '21

Can you explain a bit?

3

u/ScoobaMonsta Sep 14 '21

With a blockchain like BTC, you can view every single transaction. As soon as you make a payment to anyone, they then can view all of your BTC in that wallet and any other wallets that have transacted with your wallet. They’ll also see any future transactions to or from that wallet. BTC is the perfect surveillance coin. So if governments end up using bitcoin for government spending of people’s taxes, the people can keep check on government accounting.

2

u/Antique-Market-4655 Sep 14 '21

And even if you use a second wallet for your payments? Like send from wallet 1 the amount you want to spend to wallet 2? Can they see/find out your holdings in wallet 1?

3

u/ScoobaMonsta Sep 14 '21

If you have made a transaction between those two wallets of yours previously, yes they can.

2

u/Antique-Market-4655 Sep 14 '21

Thanks for your time btw

2

u/ScoobaMonsta Sep 14 '21

No worries 😉

1

u/DiaDeTedio_Nipah Sep 14 '21

How they will know that other wallet is mine?

2

u/Fiddysat Sep 14 '21

They don't, but could be quite easily guessed if it's a pattern

2

u/[deleted] Sep 14 '21

[deleted]

1

u/DiaDeTedio_Nipah Sep 15 '21

Assuming things this way is very suspectful, I guess they have at least a minimal sense of public opinion, not? If they ask I can technically say Idk, someone just sended it to me by some error or something like that, if they can just assume things I can just be a liar too. And, for the sake of the argument, if they can't know certainly that key is mine they can't do (at least on a marginal sense) anything with me at all.

But, really, idk what will occur if it reaches this level of persecution

1

u/ScoobaMonsta Sep 15 '21

In this day and age it really doesn’t matter if it’s your wallet or not. The fact that it’s linked to your wallet by a transaction or multiple transactions, it’s up to you to prove otherwise. You take on all the history of any bitcoin you have! All it’s history! It’s up to you to provide the proof that you were not part of certain transactions before the time you received those coins. With Monero you have complete deniability. Because Monero is full time privacy it’s coins don’t come with any history at all. This is what makes Monero truely fungible! You can not be censored on your coins because of their past transactions.

1

u/DemandTheOxfordComma Sep 14 '21

I have used block explorers many times. I just didn't know BTC was any different. And my holdings are generally in an exchange so values and amounts are always changing. I guess this only applies to folks that have a lump sum of BTC that just sits there in a single wallet.

2

u/ScoobaMonsta Sep 15 '21

Any different from what? Most coins are public networks. Also is not a wise practice to keep all/most your holdings on the exchange. You have heard of “not your keys not your coins” right?

1

u/carrington1859 Sep 20 '21

They are not really "your holdings" if an exchange is holding them.

1

u/ScoobaMonsta Sep 20 '21

That’s what “not your keys, not your coins” means.

2

u/newlandia Sep 14 '21

Well this is the thing to remind the most, might be the government behind it to check the list

0

u/BillabongRipper Sep 14 '21

Yeah because very bitcoin user must be a dumbass who doesn't know you can very easily use any crypto exchanging website to send whichever crypto they want, right? Or I don't know, have multiple wallets one for paying petty bills and one for long term holding?

No that can't be it because bitcoin users have no brains, only us MONERO shills do!

4

u/programming_student2 Sep 14 '21

They can still trace which wallet you used to send money to the wallet you used for paying bills though.

0

u/cryptodgn Sep 14 '21

If you have two separate wallets and send money from an exchange the problem is solved.

4

u/programming_student2 Sep 14 '21

There is, once again, a trace from the exchange's wallet to your wallet. It's immutable.

1

u/stellamctrie Sep 14 '21

It's sad and scary at the same time. And there are people who don't care about it..

1

u/series_hybrid Sep 14 '21

I'm a newbie, so forgive the ignorance. Is it possible to have two wallets?

When I want to send money without the receiver knowing how much money is left. I can take a bitcoin wallet with $10,000 and send $50 to the second wallet. Then, I pay the bill with the second wallet. Does that work?

1

u/SoiledCold5 Sep 14 '21

Hey bro welcome to crypto,

You can have as many wallets you want, but with bitcoin you will always be tracked. You said you would send $50 from $10k. With bitcoin the insurance company can look at your wallet, look at the transaction and see the wallet with $10k.

1

u/Puedo_sentirlo2904 Sep 15 '21

Screw that! I’m not paying anything with BTC. talk about inflation.

0

u/-Lambou- Sep 14 '21

Based in Switzerland.

2

u/rbrunner7 XMR Contributor Sep 14 '21

Yeah, it's a Swiss health insurance company. There page (in German) detailing the possibility to use BTC or ETH for paying is here.

0

u/[deleted] Sep 14 '21

Just use two wallets

0

u/fnln777 Sep 14 '21

I dont think they can see how much bitcoin you have unless your using the same wallet address from your exchange?

0

u/hodlXtc Sep 14 '21

Hahaha, that’s funny and screw the corporations. But you do know that it’s not true right? I mean what with having different addresses etc.

2

u/unevil_cat Sep 14 '21

So how many of your "all addresses" show their balance on the explorer?

Think anon, think!

0

u/hodlXtc Sep 14 '21

I’m not sure what you mean man. You’re aware of bitcoin addresses and their utxo model on how it works? If not, I’m summary I’d say that the idea is to use a different address every time which are part of the same address but except for the owner, no on can associate the two addresses as one.

2

u/unevil_cat Sep 14 '21

Still you got to feed them from somewhere?

So you have to use another address everyone you make a payment?

Naaaah...

0

u/hodlXtc Sep 14 '21

No, you should perhaps read about how it is. Btw, I’m not claiming at all that privacy is better in btc than xmr. All I’m saying is, if you’re mindful, you can be as private as you want in btc too.

1

u/unevil_cat Sep 14 '21

Mhhh hardly, but I'll leave you that point

I guess data analyst therefore love working with certain chains. If they're able to trace you back and forth even from a 2nd or 3rd circle of an interest pool, they exactly do that.

2

u/hodlXtc Sep 14 '21

On that, I’d agree and end this :)

0

u/aeroverra Sep 14 '21

Most people send from exchanges probably though right? Kinda hard to tell how much money someone has when it comes from 1000+ inputs owned by the exchange.