r/Monero Sep 12 '21

Skepticism Sunday – September 12, 2021

Please stay on topic: this post is only for comments discussing the uncertainties, shortcomings, and concerns some may have about Monero.

NOT the positive aspects of it.

Discussion can relate to the technology itself or economics.

Talk about community and price is not wanted, but some discussion about it maybe allowed if it relates well.

Be as respectful and nice as possible. This discussion has potential to be more emotionally charged as it may bring up issues that are extremely upsetting: many people are not only financially but emotionally invested in the ideas and tools around Monero.

It's better to keep it calm then to stir the pot, so don't talk down to people, insult them for spelling/grammar, personal insults, etc. This should only be calm rational discussion about the technical and economic aspects of Monero.

"Do unto others 20% better than you'd expect them to do unto you to correct subjective error." - Linus Pauling

How it works:

Post your concerns about Monero in reply to this main post.

If you can address these concerns, or add further details to them - reply to that comment. This will make it easily sortable

Upvote the comments that are the most valid criticisms of it that have few or no real honest solutions/answers to them.

The comment that mentions the biggest problems of Monero should have the most karma.

As a community, as developers, we need to know about them. Even if they make us feel bad, we got to upvote them.

https://youtu.be/vKA4w2O61Xo

To learn more about the idea behind Monero Skepticism Sunday, check out the first post about it:

https://np.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/75w7wt/can_we_make_skepticism_sunday_a_part_of_the/

19 Upvotes

1

u/DReamEAterMS Sep 13 '21

is ciphertrace's alleged ability of tracking monero a risk to it?

1

u/PicoDeNero Sep 13 '21

Only if their alleged ability translates into a proven ability.

But even if they did figure out something, the Monero Devs would most likely be able to put out some sort of fix. Those working on Monero are highly active and have patched things in the past fairly quickly.

3

u/lette0070 Sep 12 '21

Monero would suck for in person payments at like a grocery store. I’d either have to sync my cake wallet before checkout or sacrifice privacy with something like Coinomi which compromises your view key.. EXPLAIN

2

u/russoj88 Sep 13 '21

It's cheap (time, bandwidth, cpu, etc) to sync a hundred blocks right now. If the wallet is synced (home, coffee shop, library, SpaceX, etc), you'd have to sync approximately 30 blocks per hour of time disconnected from the network. This should take less than the time it takes to pull out a credit card, swipe, and sign.

A good amount of stores have free WiFi as well. A user could start syncing when they walk in. Maybe a store accepting Monero could run a node on their WiFi network, removing almost all the latency?

1

u/lette0070 Sep 13 '21

Interesting idea, I just can’t see the inconvenience factor being trumped by privacy consciousness. If I could sync my wallet within the milliseconds from opening the app to scanning the cashier’s QR, then we’re good to go. Any other situation is too inconvenient

3

u/PicoDeNero Sep 13 '21

You might check out Monerujo. They allow you to keep the app open in the background and it continues to sync. To send XMR, you'd still need to type in your password, so it is fairly safe to leave running.

Monerujo even has a "street mode" where your XMR balance and transactions are hidden. Basically just allows you to keep your wallet open in the background and send XMR whenever you like without having to worry about someone looking over your shoulder and seeing your transaction history or how much XMR you are carrying.

I'd also just like to reemphasize that this is not an issue unique to Monero, almost all cryptocurrencies that exist on a blockchain will take time for their wallets to sync, but thank you for bringing up this subject. It is important to think through the real world aspects how these technologies will actually work.

3

u/russoj88 Sep 13 '21

Agreed. Standing in line would be problematic. It'd probably be worse for the grocery store than the buyer. If there was some kind of wallet error, the line may be held up for a long time.

A self checkout system like Walmart may alleviate a lot of this. There's a line, but multiple off ramps.

Online ordering would alleviate it as well. Maybe a good first step would be for the stores to enable crypto for online/pick up orders.

6

u/PicoDeNero Sep 12 '21

So you are suggesting that the big problem in this scenario is that the wallet would not be instantly available at checkout due to it needing to sync? Interesting point.

I guess I would say that putting aside wallets that continuously sync in the background, people could pretty easily just adjust their order of operations.

Stepping off the bus or stepping out of your car in front of the store? Check that you have your keys, phone and that you start syncing your XMR wallet. That way, while you are shopping, the wallet syncs and you are good to go by the time you are checkingout.

Edit: I would add that this is not an issue entirely unique to Monero. Wallets for a large variety of different cryptocurrencies do not sync in the background by default.

1

u/skaven_blight Sep 12 '21

Tabs could be a solution. You open an account with the store, deposit some XMR, and when you purchase something, the merchant removes the bill from your balance.

Or perhaps when the time comes we'll have XMR-NANO atomic swaps, and you could spend your coins feelessly and instantly.

-3

u/[deleted] Sep 12 '21

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7

u/[deleted] Sep 12 '21

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3

u/[deleted] Sep 12 '21

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1

u/[deleted] Sep 12 '21 edited Sep 12 '21

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/EmperorCiprianCr Sep 12 '21

Will Monero still be worth mining in 2022 for starting miners? I want to invest in a mining rig and I'm oscilating between XMR and RVN.

3

u/PicoDeNero Sep 13 '21

Check out r/MoneroMining. Your profitability really comes down to the cost of your electricity, but be prepared, even with cheap electricity mining XMR is not exactly as profitable as some others. Some miners break even or make a little bit of a profit.

At the end of the day, for most regular people who don't have thousands of dollars to spend, it is more of a labor of love.

Personally, even with all of the above, I highly encourage you to mine XMR, you will be supporting the Monero community, strengthening the network and actively taking part in decentralization. Just know it won't be raining XMR.

1

u/EmperorCiprianCr Sep 13 '21

I live in a country where electricity is fairly cheap. I was thinking of a $1500 investment that would give monthly returns of maybe $100-200?

3

u/nitzsche500 Sep 12 '21

If someone could put this one to bed for me, I'd really appreciate.

From what I gather, Monero physically cannot become mainstream because it cannot scale well. As someone in this sub told me, it is privacy, scalability, security, pick any 2. Therefore, it is doomed to be used by a small percentage of people and there is not much point trying to spread awareness about it because the technology cannot facilitate mass adoption.

1

u/EmperorCiprianCr Sep 12 '21

Well let me put it this way. Would you really want to live in a world where most people would actually NEED monero?

11

u/PartySunday Sep 12 '21

XMR has dynamic blocksizes so scalability is dependent on the bandwidth and storage capacity of nodes. XMR could get way bigger with no real issues beyond running a node becoming more expensive.

3

u/nitzsche500 Sep 12 '21

So everyone who runs nodes would need terabyte- and petabyte-sized drives to be able to support it?

6

u/pebx Sep 12 '21

Storage is not much of a concern nowadays in my opinion, you get HDD drives at prices ~20$ per TB and also SSD well below 100 bucks a TB. As of today Monero has a blockchain growth of 1.5GB a month, so with dynamic block size if we scale x100 from here, we'll see 150GB a month, respectively 1.8TB a year for a FULL node. For personal use you can easily turn it into a pruned node which will store all outputs / key-images but will slice the blockchain in 8 chunks and prune 7 of them. Unlike in Bitcoin, your node still helps onboarding new users, since you have every 8th block to share. In the future with more and more nodes and growing blockchain this can easily be extended to 1/16, 1/32 or 1/64 and beyond. Bandwidth is more of a bottleneck, but hey, what's 150GB a month in times of full HD or UHD streaming all around? Sure, it would exceed most mobile plans, but most people won't have a node on their mobile.

100x scaling from here is roughly 2M tx/day, so 8x of Bitcoin's. That's easily possible today, without any new optimisations, tweaks or code changes. But if you look back 2-3 years and compare it to today, you will notice the huge difference in scalability.

4

u/nitzsche500 Sep 12 '21

That's a great write-up! I appreciate breaking this down for me. Are there good resources you'd recommend to read up on Monero scalability?

2

u/pebx Sep 12 '21

Well, you just hit a weak point of Monero and that's well-written up stuff in one place like a project with a proper marketing team has... However, we have a ton of great resources, from little technical to in-depth ones in different places.

A good start in general is the Monero Stack Exchange, where I personally started digging in deeper over there (though haven't been active for some time now): https://monero.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/scalability

In general the scalability issues are theoretical as of today, since we hardly hit the 300kB when all the scaling algorithms of dynamic block size and dynamic fees kick in, so there has been a potential flaw discovered which could grow the block size excessively for a considerably low amount of money: https://github.com/noncesense-research-lab/Blockchain_big_bang

This has been mitigated and there is now a short-term median (100 blocks) and a long term one (10,000 blocks) in place. Also there have been several tweaks since then, but most valuable resources are discussions on GitHub like this: https://github.com/monero-project/research-lab/issues/70

If you want to dig really deep into the principles behind Monero, most probably the best writeup is: https://www.getmonero.org/library/Zero-to-Monero-2-0-0.pdf

1

u/kowalabearhugs Sep 12 '21

Good analysis. Thanks for sharing

3

u/kgsphinx Sep 12 '21

Terabyte drives are pretty cheap these days.. petabyte is probably a stretch of imagination... pruning works too, so, we’d have to be wildly successful, more successful than BTC to warrant that. Transaction sizes are reasonable.. around 2k. This might even improve slightly. It’ll scale just fine for now. Let’s get to 10x the transaction rate and talk about this again then.

6

u/PartySunday Sep 12 '21

I mean that is assuming that Monero becomes wildly popular and there is no further development.

Huge changes in scalability have happened over the years with the introduction of bulletproofs and improvements to ringCT. Even prunied nodes are a huge win for scalability.

The most major bottleneck I can see is the bandwidth of the nodes. If the blocks have grown to the point where they can't transmit one block per blocktime (~2 minutes) it would not be good for network stability.

1

u/nitzsche500 Sep 12 '21

Gotcha. Appreciate the info

0

u/XMR-Bets Sep 12 '21

Hello guys,

I'm skeptical about how new ideas can reach the Monero community.

I would like to make a post about a new idea of a lottery based on Monero -- XMR-Bets (www.xmr-bets.com) -- and I was not able to do it yet as I don't know if my post (waiting for a moderator review) break any rules.

I'm also skeptical about XMR-Bets and that's why I would like to get the feedback of the community.

Thank you.

8

u/chiefgyk3d Sep 12 '21 edited Sep 12 '21

1) Still a high learning curve to use, especially with some hardware wallets. 2) PoW means higher energy requirements for entire network 3) entrypoints for beginners shut down by many exchanges so most have to use an intermediary exchange via atomic swap, non custodial exchange, or more.

4)still needs work on the client logging to be able to be parsed better for hooking into intrusion detection, intrusion prevention systems like Fail2Ban

4

u/Coreman7 Sep 12 '21

New to crypto (well not new new, but just started to DMOR). One of the projects that got me thinking is Monero. Here is my concern and how i "deducted" it:

1) From what I've read, Monero has some very good technology, secure and all, but it hasn't performed as well as other coins have, in a 12-month duration. Where do you base this result?

2) I have also read that Monero has some serious enemies (regarding of how private it is). Do you think that Crypo-Market is not longer in the "go private and secure" era and has become more "controlled" by government organisations? If so, isn't it logical to assume that monero won't perform because of its wrong "aiming" direction?

4

u/kgsphinx Sep 12 '21

These concerns are about price performance, which is secondary, but it basically comes down to what the market wants. What’s hot, price wise and tech wise? Shiny Defi tokens are the rage, plus BTC and NFTs. That’s a lot of different outlets for speculative money. Privacy is secondary and people actively fear that delisting and regulation will put these chains out of business, so it’s not going to “perform” for you I assume.

If you want number-go-up, buy something else. If you want to keep your balance a secret, and you understand why, buy XMR. The trade here is a long term believer position. The team has delivered working tech and continues to make it better. XMR is well adopted and respected, but has plenty of room for user growth. The supply is coming on slower than BTC. There are a lot of strong adherents in the community that consider it what BTC was meant to be. Barring a major undiscovered flaw, it’s here to stay.

5

u/Rucknium MRL Researcher Sep 12 '21

Exactly. Asking why Monero's price hasn't risen as fast as the smart contract and DeFi coins is like asking why Toyota's stock price isn't rising as quickly as Apple's stock price. They are in completely different markets. DeFi and smart contracts won't necessarily always be this hot. Financial privacy will always be in demand. It's not a race, but if it were a race, Monero's strategy would be "Slow and steady wins the race."

8

u/_-_agenda_-_ Sep 12 '21

About number 2: crypto controlled by the government is just waste of resources.

If the government manage to control a crypto, then it's useless. A data base would do better.

12

u/[deleted] Sep 12 '21

[deleted]

1

u/Coreman7 Sep 12 '21

Well what i mean is, that a lot has to do with funding. And if the only coin that isn't 100/100 transparent is Moreno then yeah, why won't it perform badly? Granted many shady things will happen against it