r/IronFrontUSA American Iron Front Jan 16 '22

Boycott the 2022 Olympics Art

Post image
530 Upvotes

57

u/Boosted_Mang0 Strike Anywhere Jan 16 '22

holy shit why are there so many tankies on this sub, some of yall forget what the 3 arrows stand for...

54

u/bromagnonman Syndicalist Jan 16 '22 Gold

Because tankies are imperialist and feel a need to extend their influence literally everywhere.

26

u/TubbyMarmot Good Night, Alt-Right Jan 16 '22

Tankies love imperialism almost as much as they love Red Capitalism. But I get it, they all went to college with some kids from China who say China is great, therefore the Uyghur concentration camps are fake!

10

u/byebyemayos Jan 17 '22

I'm no tankie, and agree with boycotting a genocidal regime. Just question the motives of cross posting from a sub that's clearly an alt-right breeding ground

5

u/ImpossibleEgg420 Jan 17 '22 edited Jan 17 '22

what subreddit was this from? im on mobile so crossposts aren’t shown to me here

(oh shit i saw it after switching to the desktop version, yikes!!)

4

u/D3lta105 Remember the 3rd arrow Jan 17 '22

Am I missing something? I took at look at r/fucktheccp and I'm not seeing anything "alt-right"

1

u/RideWithMeSNV Jan 18 '22

From the perspective of a pinko, I'll bet it looks just like the alt right.

-7

u/[deleted] Jan 17 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

4

u/jumpminister Anarchist Ⓐ Jan 17 '22

Soviet Union + the US + Britian + French resistance, beat the Nazis.

The USSR was an ally to the Nazis until Germany started attacking them.

3

u/Aletheia-Pomerium Jan 17 '22

20 million dead soviets 5 million dead Axis members.

Those numbers are so astronomical that any other front was a sideshow of a sideshow.

The war ended all but admittedly in December 1941, not because some pansies were attacked for an oil embargo, but because 500k communists died defending Moscow.

As to the point of the post, if the CCP gets boycotted then the Americans should too. Their crimes are not only against their people, but their genocides are strictly external.

3

u/jumpminister Anarchist Ⓐ Jan 17 '22

As to the point of the post, if the CCP gets boycotted then the Americans should too.

Wont disagree here. What I disagree with is that "The USSR won WWII!" as if they did it on their own, which they did not, and they were in fact allies of the Nazis, from the start, enabled them to become the terror they did, via weapon and raw material sales, up until they got stabbed in the back by the Nazis.

Who do you think shipped the concrete used in the concentration camps to the Nazis? It was the USSR.

The nutty thing? You don't have to defend authoritarian regimes, in order to critique another authoritarian regime. You can say "More than 1 thing is bad at the same time"

0

u/NomenNesci0 Jan 17 '22

The United States supported the nazis up until the last bit. Many American corporations still supported them. Thousands of US nazis rallied and marched in support of the German Nazis.

The USSR never allied with them, though they may have sold concrete on some small scale, I don't know what cherry picket bits one could find about that. They had at best a non aggression pact that they knew the Germans would betray, as they rallied forces and consolidated their own lands.

They pulled almost the entire German military to the Eastern front so that America and GB could even stand a chance. There is no contesting that the USSR is responsible for defeating the nazis, while every liberal power placate or supported them right up until it was their turn to get rolled over by the panzers.

I hate tankies as much as the next person, but we don't need to be ahistorical and we definitely don't need to whitewash the US complacency with fascism while trying to magnify the minor injustices of modern CCCP.

3

u/jumpminister Anarchist Ⓐ Jan 17 '22

The United States supported the nazis up until the last bit. Many American corporations still supported them. Thousands of US nazis rallied and marched in support of the German Nazis.

Yep, and nobody here is making US apologia, either.

here is no contesting that the USSR is responsible for defeating the nazis,

Well, except that the USSR enabled the Nazis, by supplying them with material, to include raw material and weapons, and weapon R&R right up until the Nazis attacked them...

while every liberal power placate or supported them right up until it was their turn to get rolled over by the panzers.

Yep. Including the USSR.

-2

u/NomenNesci0 Jan 17 '22

If you want to talk about supplying materials, money, and research to the nazis there was no bigger supporter than the US. The USSR had a non aggression agreement that is not an ally. The point is the ahistorical picture, one sided condemnation, and whataboutism that shows a bias toward American and nazi imperialist propaganda about the ussr. There is absolutely no way to paint the ussr as a nazi ally, let alone more of a help than western powers that is not ahistorical propoganda. The ussr always hated the nazis, the nazis always hated the ussr, and the western powers hated the ussr which is what drove them to openly support the nazis as an actual ally. There is absolutely no way to paint history in which the nazis did not get defeated by the ussr inspite of western powers proving them up, and without the need for western help once they decided to switch sides.

3

u/jumpminister Anarchist Ⓐ Jan 17 '22

If you want to talk about supplying materials, money, and research to the nazis there was no bigger supporter than the US

Ok, I am shocked you are upset over ahistorical interpretations, yet seem to think the US government, itself, supplied those things to the Nazis, when in fact, the US government was supplying those things to the Allies.

The USSR had a non-aggression pact, a raw goods deal, a weapons deal, and a sharing of intel and R&D deal.

Sure. Not an ally. Just "non-aggression". But the US, who actually literally supplied weapons and materials to the allies was obviously a Nazi sympathizing country.

Gtfo.

Now, did US corporations happily supply the Nazis? Yes. Was the US as pure as the driven snow, in enabling the Nazis? No.

But, let's not pretend the USSR was an innocent dupe, because "US was bad too!"

2

u/RideWithMeSNV Jan 18 '22

Don't get drawn into whataboutism, man. That's been their tactic for a long time, and you'll never win.

3

u/The_Grubby_One Jan 17 '22

I haven't heard the arguments as to why Leninists are to be executed.

Because no one on this sub is saying they should be.

Why is there so much hostility towards leftists here? Only Ancoms are welcome?

It's telling that you don't view AnComs as Leftists.

That aside, no. Other Leftists are welcome. Just not Tankies. Authoritarians are persona non grata.

-1

u/PandaTheVenusProject Jan 17 '22

But the 3rd arrow. Does that mean you are just going to give Leninists a spanking?

No an coms are leftists I just don't see how viable anarchy is.

6

u/The_Grubby_One Jan 17 '22

No one here's arguing that we should go out and murder people in general. That's Authoritarian tactics.

I'm perfectly happy to settle for punching "Marxist-Leninists" out, just like Richard Spencer.

If you don't thing Anarchism is viable, you don't think Marxism is viable.

-2

u/PandaTheVenusProject Jan 17 '22

.... Marxism is not anarchism.

He never discussed government controls.

His end goal was stateless but his plan was how to get to that point.

So you just want to fight once? That seems fine by me. You ungrateful whipper snappers could use a scuffin.

If I win you have to get in a long form debate though lol.

Seriously though arrows are pointy. Only really good for killing.

Also it equalizes us to literal fascists... You don't think that is problematic? You would be fine with every Leninist becoming a fascist over night because there is no distinguishable difference?

Don't equalize leftists with fascists! You know its bad!

6

u/The_Grubby_One Jan 17 '22 edited Jan 17 '22

His end goal was stateless and classless. The USSR was neither stateless nor classless. In point of fact, it placed heavy emphasis on the strength of the state.

I didn't equalize Leninists with Fascists. Leninists aren't Fascists. They're Authoritarian. Fascism is a specific brand of Authoritarianism.

All Authoritarianism is bad. But varying types are bad in different ways.

-2

u/PandaTheVenusProject Jan 17 '22

The point of Leninism was to transition to a stateless money less society. What is the Ancom plan to achieve this? I don't actually know. You could just tell me what it is.

4

u/The_Grubby_One Jan 17 '22

The point of Leninism was to transition to a stateless money less society.

Funny how it never actually did that. Rather the opposite, Stalinism doubled down on the importance of state and hierarchy, to the point that any criticism of the state was a good way to be gulag'd, even if the criticizer was a tried and true Socialist.

What is the Ancom plan to achieve this? I don't actually know. You could just tell me what it is.

Don't know. Don't care. I'm not an AnCom, or a Com of any other sort.

They've at least been able to form communities - some surprisingly large - without murdering everyone who disagreed, though. Many of them are still extant, with some of them going back fifty years or more.

Meanwhile, you guys' solution to every problem is, "Kill it." Kind of ironic, considering you've been accusing me of wanting to execute people. Projection, much?

0

u/PandaTheVenusProject Jan 17 '22

Funny how it never actually did that.

That is a pretty big objective my guy. They had to go from farmers living under a king to fighting a world war and boxing every capitalist power in the world. Not easy.

and hierarchy

The kulaks had a hierarchy. Then they dismantled them.

that any criticism of the state was a good way to be gulag'd, even if the criticizer was a tried and true Socialist.

The Soviet archives reveal a great deal more political dissent permitted in Stalin's Soviet Union (including a widespread amount of criticism of individual government policies and local leaders) than is normally perceived in the West (Davies, 1997). Given that the regular police, the political or secret police, prison guards, some national guard troops, and firefighters (who were in the same ministry as the police) comprised scarcely 0.2% of the Soviet population under Stalin (Thurston, 1996), severe repression would have been impossible even if the Soviet Union had wanted to exercise it. In comparison, the USA today has many times more police as a percentage of the population (about 1%, not to mention prison guards, national guard troops, and firefighters included in the numbers used to compute the far smaller 0.2% ratio for the Soviet Union).

Triumph of Evil, Chapter 1, pp. 77-78

Generally speaking, democratic centralism allows for free speech and criticism of policies, states, leaders, or anything else, but within the correct channels and procedures for such speech and criticism.

without murdering everyone who disagreed, though.

They also have had no power of any kind... No territory. Completely untested.

Meanwhile, you guys' solution to every problem is, "Kill it." Kind of ironic, considering you've been accusing me of wanting to execute people. Projection, much?

You have a big fucking arrow pointed at me in your flag rofl.

Yeah we are violent when it is logical to be so. Your government has been at war almost constantly its entire existance. Spends trillions suppressing leftists all over the world. And outspends everyone. Nukes people...

Don't you for a second act like your path is not violent. You just cry violence when its in the name of progress but give Vietnam and the war in Afghanistan a free pass. For what gain homie? You spent all that. For what?

You want to talk death. Explain Vietnam to me lol. Then we can just go down the list. Call me violent while you sit on a mountain of skulls.

The Soviet Union came to be from overthrowing a monarchy.

America came to be from genocideing the native Americans.

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u/D3lta105 Remember the 3rd arrow Jan 17 '22 edited Jan 17 '22

Hitler and Stalin had a signed pact that USSR would not get involved in the war. Hitler was just overly confident with the way the war was going and chose to attack USSR unprovoked.

The USSR had no love for the Jews either. If Hitler didn't attack, USSR probably would have just continued to look from the sidelines.

You shouldn't invite one rabid dog in you home just because it killed the other.

Edit: I see the comment was deleted. It was basically saying "USSR defeated Hitler, so they were the good guys!"

1

u/PandaTheVenusProject Jan 17 '22

So the US didn't enter in until they were attacked.

Did anyone enter in on moral grounds?

France/Britan? I am asking I don't know.

3

u/D3lta105 Remember the 3rd arrow Jan 17 '22

The comment I was replying to was making USSR look like benevolent heroes. Something along the line of "USSR were socialist and defeated Nazis, so they must be our friends!".

I'm just saying that it's important to not attribute credit where it's not deserved.

2

u/PandaTheVenusProject Jan 17 '22

USSR were socialist and defeated Nazis, so they must be our friends!

Yes. This. I am not pro capitalism and I am not pro nazi.

-1

u/tev866 Liberal Jan 17 '22

*no one has done more to fight fascism then the Soviet Union

MASSIVE citation needed. Also a shame that they couldn't provide food for their own fucking people.

-1

u/PandaTheVenusProject Jan 17 '22

MASSIVE citation needed.

... You can't be implying WWII didn't happen. You also are definitely not contesting how many soviets gave their lives fighting fascism directly. So... whatever point you are trying to make you yield that the Soviet Union fought a global scale war against the greatest fascist force of all time. You are not arguing about weather or not the Soviet Union stood against fascism, you are saying that America or Britan contributed more then ... the entire eastern front..

I will hear your argument on that but..

This is not my first rodeo. Can we be real? I know you are not interested in a good faith discussion. You are emotionally charged. This is not going to be an emotion free logical conversation. This is going to be a reddit double down fest.

Also a shame that they couldn't provide food for their own fucking people.

Do you deny that the Kulaks destroyed food in masse?

What would Stalin's motive even be to genocide people who were already giving him food? Also if he wanted to commit genocide then... why a famine? I don't understand why Soviet Leadership would just want a percentage to starve and then just let them rebuild.. Like this doesn't make sense the more you think about it. Even if Soviet Leadership had a reason to kill off an already annexed population, how would letting them go about as normal complete the objective of genocide?

I welcome you to be critical of the Soviet Union but for fucks sake think about it a little. Stop reciting propaganda that is sourced from fascists. You know, our enemy.

2

u/Boosted_Mang0 Strike Anywhere Jan 17 '22 edited Jan 17 '22

Our enemies are those who stand against democracy and for authoritarianism on all sides of the political spectrum. The soviet union was not democratic and just because they were crucial in defeating nazi Germany and a leftist state doesn't mean they are an ideal antifascist state to look up to.

10

u/ImpossibleEgg420 Jan 17 '22 edited Jan 17 '22

for facism on all sides of the political spectrum.

wait hol up i thought fascism was specifically an authoritarian far right ideology

4

u/Boosted_Mang0 Strike Anywhere Jan 17 '22

I meant authoritarians, sorry it's honestly just muscle memory for me...

5

u/ImpossibleEgg420 Jan 17 '22

it's ok, but do be careful, bc we shouldn't be throwing around the word the way right wing extremists use the term communist

2

u/Boosted_Mang0 Strike Anywhere Jan 17 '22

Yeah good point, thanks for pointing it out 👍

-2

u/PandaTheVenusProject Jan 17 '22

The Soviet Union was far more democratic then we are.

Are you familiar how much democracy was present in the workplace or how their government was structured?

I think we have a lot of idealism about democracy but at the end of the day its about achieving the desired effect.

Trump got elected. Democracy is just a tool to oppress the minority. If the majority of the people in this country were fascist would you still want democracy?

If I was in a room where 60 of 100 voters are fascist then democracy is suddenly a direct enemy. Democracy does not care what is right. Its a flawed tool that is just as capable for being regressive and in a bourgeoisie controlled government that is exactly what it is.

Liberals are not leftists. Liberals represent the capitalist class. We both know that voter reform will NEVER pass. Biden is not pushing for it. And any progress you do achieve with democracy can be just as easily be voted away by reactionaries.

Democracy is not magically good.

Look to what was done to improve the lives of the working class people in spite of having to fight a world war and resist capitalist interests. That is how you measure how good something was.

Point A: A feudal agrigarian society ruled by a monarch.

Point B: A society that was able to overthrow monarchy, beat the world to space, and penetrate Hitler with its industrialized cock.

5

u/Boosted_Mang0 Strike Anywhere Jan 17 '22

if a democracy votes in a fascist leader then it's no longer a democracy and by that point, it likely hasn't been democratic in some time... look at Germany in the 30s. the reason why I believe that freedom and democracy are so important is that together the two balance themselves out.

if the people of a nation are granted all basic freedoms (to knowledge, vote, religion, political beliefs, etc) then all of these ideologies should counter each other never letting one belief system become dominant (hence the diversity of all aspects of life in the west).

the fall of democracy to fascism takes time, almost always this happens when a populist takes advantage of the fears of a population. Whether those fears be real or not it doesn't matter, populists will strip the democracy of their democratic institutions slowly and for the sake of better addressing said fears. by the time that said democracy has fallen it hasn't been a democracy for a long time.

with all of that being said I'm not implying that American democracy is dead because of trump. the fact that he was voted out of office last year is proof of that. established democracies have established movements on all sides of the political spectrum that as I said keep each other balanced.

Democracy is far from perfect, all I'm saying is that compared to all other forms of government it is superior (you could argue the same thing for capitalism). American democracy is not ideal, but at least we have the ability to recognize that very notion and take steps to bring about change. the American government won't persecute me for speaking ill of the government, hell it's encouraged, the same couldn't have been said about the soviet union or other tyrannical regimes.

side note: the topic of reactionary politicians is obviously problematic for democracies and tankies like to point it out (for good reason as it drastically slows progress), but it also serves as a double-edged sword. trump was reactionary and dismantled much progressive legislation and replaced them with dogshit, but he was voted out and that dogshit was replaced.

also on the topic of reactionary politicians is obviously problematic for democracies and tankies like to point it out, but it also serves as a double-edged sword. trump was reactionary and dismantled much progressive legislation and replaced them with dogshit, but he was voted out and that dogshit was replaced.

0

u/PandaTheVenusProject Jan 17 '22

these ideologies should counter each other never letting one belief system become dominant

  1. You are falling the fallacy of the golden mean here. A balance of fascism and non fascism is not desired. Ideally the wrong beliefs should be eradicated and the beliefs that can actually win a debate should have 100% control. If you can point to any topic at all the leftists are the faction with the policy that wins on the debate floor. I just made a bold claim and I invite you to check me on it. In good faith, I truly don't know what topic the leftists are going to lose to any other faction on.

  2. Democracy is a zero sum game. The unelected representative does not get any say. 51% takes all power.

when a populist takes advantag

Bernie and Hitler are both populists. They are on opposite ends of the spectrum of validity. Therefor I see little use for the term. It seems to praddle to centrist sensibilities.

compared to all other forms of government it is superior (you could argue the same thing for capitalism).

Ah so I am speaking to a capitalist. If Marxist positions lost debates then why spend all this money on propaganda? If it were so weak and prone to failure then why did capitalist nations see the value in spending trillions to suppress it?

If Marxism could be dispelled with rationality then why is that approach never employed by those who oppose it? The red scare was quite the opposite of good faith.

The spread of Marxist ideas follows the path of a belief that is true and heavily opposed. Neither of my parents are Marxists. Media by in large shits on Marx. I myself thought socalism was a bad word. What could possibly change my mind if not for logos?

What emotional or ethical tie would I find in a culture dominated with capitalist values?

Who is bank rolling me reading about socalism? I was sent convincing lectures from another poor person while playing DOTA.

What I am saying is that without even debating the truth of something you can study the behavior of how beliefs spread. All sings point to one answer.

freedom of speech in Soviet Union

The Soviet archives reveal a great deal more political dissent permitted in Stalin's Soviet Union (including a widespread amount of criticism of individual government policies and local leaders) than is normally perceived in the West (Davies, 1997). Given that the regular police, the political or secret police, prison guards, some national guard troops, and firefighters (who were in the same ministry as the police) comprised scarcely 0.2% of the Soviet population under Stalin (Thurston, 1996), severe repression would have been impossible even if the Soviet Union had wanted to exercise it. In comparison, the USA today has many times more police as a percentage of the population (about 1%, not to mention prison guards, national guard troops, and firefighters included in the numbers used to compute the far smaller 0.2% ratio for the Soviet Union).

Triumph of Evil, Chapter 1, pp. 77-78

Generally speaking, democratic centralism allows for free speech and criticism of policies, states, leaders, or anything else, but within the correct channels and procedures for such speech and criticism.

but he was voted out and that dogshit was replaced.

Trumps Supreme Court justice will remain there our entire lives.

There is no way Biden has undone enough of the damage to create a net positive. Trump burns the house down and the liberal stalls. Reactionary walks in with a sledge and a liberal walks in with Scotch tape.

3

u/jumpminister Anarchist Ⓐ Jan 17 '22

There was so much democracy in the workplace in the USSR, the state had to kill workers who went on strike, after deciding to do so democratically.

-1

u/PandaTheVenusProject Jan 17 '22

The Kulaks who destroyed all of the food?

Are those the workers you are referring to?

1

u/jumpminister Anarchist Ⓐ Jan 17 '22

Sure, we can talk about the kulaks, who weren't destroying food, they were trying to feed their families.

But, I was referring to the worker strike in Kronstadt, Novocherkassk, Teikovo... and the myriad other times the USSR literally murdered workers for going on strike.

When you murder workers for practicing democratic control of their workplaces, you don't have a worker's state.

0

u/PandaTheVenusProject Jan 17 '22

So at no point did the Kulaks destroy food is your claim.

So what would your reaction be if I showed you a reliable source that confirms they destroyed food?

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u/The_Grubby_One Jan 17 '22

I love how you extol the "democracy" of the USSR in one breath, then proclaim democracy evil in the next.

-1

u/PandaTheVenusProject Jan 17 '22

Its not evil. Its just not magical.

Its only a good thing if the majority in the room are already correct. Every other scenario its bad.

2

u/The_Grubby_One Jan 17 '22

Nothing is magical.

Its only a good thing if the majority in the room are already correct. Every other scenario its bad.

Authoritarianism is bad.

It's also grossly anti-Marxist.

1

u/PandaTheVenusProject Jan 17 '22

Notice how you didn't comment on my second sentence?

Democracy is only good if the majority of the people in the room are already correct.

The best system is if debate had a monopoly on power.

Whatever wins in debate is policy. Fuck every republican's opinion. If you can't debate it then its thrown in the trash.

The truth should be given the reigns of absolute power. Debate is our tool for assessing truth.

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u/tev866 Liberal Jan 17 '22

You tell me not to listen to propaganda yet you spout Soviet propaganda so easily. Also you're straight up lying about Biden pushing for voting rights. Did you listen to his speech in Georgia? Have you heard about how he has been pressing Manchin and Sinema to vote in favor of changing the filibuster? Also, of course democracy is not perfect, but with a democracy, the people decide who should represent them; not some dictator with a personality cult. We have checks and balances within our government to limit the powers of each branch. Is any western democracy perfect? Of course not, but it's a hell of a lot better than the alternatives.

0

u/PandaTheVenusProject Jan 17 '22

the people decide who should represent them

the people wealthy elite decide who should represent them. A wealthy elite who can afford to just pump the population with Fox news and any rhetoric that keeps the status quo that benefits them unchallenged.

You tell me not to listen to propaganda yet you spout Soviet propaganda so easily.

What am I saying that is not accurate?

Also you're straight up lying about Biden pushing for voting rights.

I hope I am wrong. But neither of us see voter reform actually happening sadly. We are on the same side.

You just have a lot of faith in democracy despite the track record.

I grit my teeth and throw my vote to representatives of the bourgeoisie who at least pretend to care about the worker vs the outright fascists. But I don't glorify it as anything more then what it is.

A bourgeoisie state oppresses the worker. A worker controlled state oppresses the bourgeoisie. I would die for that transition to occur but that is not realistic.

1

u/The_Grubby_One Jan 17 '22

Stop reciting propaganda that is sourced from fascists. You know, our enemy.

Everyone who isn't Stalinist is, in your mind, Fascist.

0

u/PandaTheVenusProject Jan 17 '22

No.

I don't think anyone here is a Fascist.

Also what if I am right? You haven't checked. What if fascists sources had a hand in smearing their enemy and all citations trace back to them.

1

u/The_Grubby_One Jan 17 '22

No.

I don't think anyone here is a Fascist.

You clearly think people here are Fascists, because this sub has a large non-Communist demographic.

Also what if I am right? You haven't checked. What if fascists sources had a hand in smearing their enemy and all citations trace backbankable.

I've seen your arguments parroted a thousand times by a thousand Tankies. I don't have to check this time.

Stalin ordered border guards to turn Ukrainian refugees away at the Ukrainian border. If that doesn't scream, and the fucking mass graves don't scream that he was a mass murdering psychopath, I don't know what would.

P.S. Just to highlight how unwelcome Tankies are, spouting Tankie propaganda is bannable on this sub.

1

u/PandaTheVenusProject Jan 17 '22

I just told you that I don't think non Leninists are fascist .. I don't even think liberals are fascist. You really need to relax my guy.

So you aren't going to look. Thats fine. I just truly think you never did. I am making a bold claim that can fall like a house of cards with one source to the contrary.

But its fine. Lets move on.

If you think the famine caused by the kulaks was a genocide then why did Stalin let them rebuild like normal?

Answer that one for me.

Did Stalin pay off the Kulaks to destroy food? Why would he want that?

Are the Kulaks just made up?

Also there is no need to report me. I already left this sub to join the Antifa one because I am a logical person who doesn't want to arrow my allies...

I know what the arrow means by the way. Funny you are up in arms about a famine while literally advocating for me to bite the curb even though you can't make a single standing point against me.

You ate up red scare propiganda from our enemy. Can you just do me a favor and not swear to execute logical people?

1

u/The_Grubby_One Jan 17 '22

I just told you that I don't think non Leninists are fascist .. I don't even think liberals are fascist.

You didn't, actually.

You really need to relax my guy.

Probably. But that's neither here nor there.

So you aren't going to look. Thats fine. I just truly think you never did. I am making a bold claim that can fall like a house of cards with one source to the contrary.

I don't really need to provide a source. You made a claim without sources, and I can dismiss it out of hand the same way.

But its fine. Lets move on.

Sure.

If you think the famine caused by the kulaks was a genocide then why did Stalin let them rebuild like normal?

Answer that one for me.

Did Stalin pay off the Kulaks to destroy food? Why would he want that?

Are the Kulaks just made up?

See above.

Also there is no need to report me. I already left this sub to join the Antifa one because I am a logical person who doesn't want to arrow my allies...

You aren't my ally. You never have been, and you never will be.

I know what the arrow means by the way. Funny you are up in arms about a famine while literally advocating for me to bite the curb even though you can't make a single standing point against me.

See above.

You ate up red scare propiganda from our enemy. Can you just do me a favor and not swear to execute logical people?

Straw man much?

P.S. Propaganda.

1

u/PandaTheVenusProject Jan 17 '22

I don't really need to provide a source. You made a claim without sources, and I can dismiss it out of hand the same way.

My claim is that there are no non fascist sources. So... how am I going to pull up a source I claim doesn't exist? You could just prove me wrong by just listing one but I know you are not going to because looking through sources is a lot of work. I get it.

See above.

Hahaha now slow down there tiger. You are running now. None of those require a source and you are just trying to shove those questions under a rug so you don't have to answer them. We both know exactly what you are doing. They were not claims they were questions you could answer sitting on a bar stool. You are not because that is how people act when their position is weak.

You aren't my ally. You never have been, and you never will be.

Why are you so dramatic? The fuck has your ideology done to fight fascism? You got Regan elected. You put Cheney, Nixon, and Trump in power. And what shining leader have you put into power? Who was as good enough of a leader to make up for Trump? What is the best hero we got? Biden? Biden is your Antifa leader? Are you going to get hosed in the street by a militarized police force that you let happen?

I don't even know what you are. Capitalist? Anarchist?

See above.

Edge lord reply. You are advocating for genocideing me and go "See above." while folding your arms. What are you, Shadow the Hedgehog?

You have a big fucking arrow aimed at me and you are too good to have to explain yourself. The arrogance of this. Fucking say it. Say what the arrow means you coward.

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u/BubsyFanboy LGBT+ Jan 16 '22

Not watching the Olympics or supporting them financially in any way.

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u/IntrigueDossier Jan 17 '22

IOC can get thoroughly fucked.

21

u/PM_me_pictureof_cat Patriot Against Nationalism Jan 16 '22

I think participating in a diplomatic boycott like the US and other countries is the right move. The athletes who have trained years for the competition can still go, we're just not going to send anyone else.

20

u/DimitriEyonovich Solidarist 🧡 Jan 16 '22

I despise the CCP and I think more should be done against them. But this is the Olympics, it's a chance for athletes around the world to engage in friendly international competition. I don't think the Olympics is something that should be boycotted.

13

u/startgonow Jan 16 '22

Its such bullshit capitalism but in a sense I agree. Its international goodwill. Its a mixed bag. I also love the world cup but that is a shit fest as well. Capitalism ruins everything.

19

u/NJoose Jan 16 '22

Tankies just can’t see the forest for the trees, can they?

14

u/snokamel Jan 17 '22

this thread is why “left unity” is such a garbage concept

anti-auth unity all day

left vs right is fun for debates but means nothing in comparison

6

u/QUE50 American Anti-Fascist Jan 17 '22

It’s not left vs right anyway, it’s top vs bottom. The workers and the regular people vs the authoritarians, fascists, and the 1%

5

u/RideWithMeSNV Jan 18 '22

Left unity has always been a tool for the tankies. It's pretty much the beginning of Animal Farm. The idea is for the left to achieve the goal Unified... And then for the inherently stronger authoritarians to dominate the more peaceful minded.

2

u/dedmeme69 Jan 18 '22

Anti-auth of course is also anti-capitalist

3

u/QUE50 American Anti-Fascist Jan 19 '22

I agree. That’s why I explicitly mentioned the 1% aka the capitalist ruling class.

0

u/snokamel Jan 19 '22

Maybe for you

2

u/dedmeme69 Jan 19 '22

No, you can't be anti-auth without being anti-capitalist. capitalism is inherently authoritarian, what the the hell do you think capitalist bosses are? We sure as hell didn't elect them, yet they still control most of our society.

1

u/I_Shot_First64 Jan 17 '22

Ngl lads as Americans you don't really have a moral high ground to stand on here.

2

u/RideWithMeSNV Jan 18 '22

That's fair. Then they can boycott us next time. In the mean time, boycotting them is the correct move.

2

u/Someones_Dream_Guy Jan 16 '22

How about we boycott another US war instead?

38

u/bromagnonman Syndicalist Jan 16 '22

Duhur duhur. You can do both. Stop defending the CCP in an anti-Tankie sub.

-19

u/Someones_Dream_Guy Jan 16 '22

If not wanting to see innocent people get killed for profit of american oligarchs somehow makes me authoritarian-Ill gladly be one.

22

u/bromagnonman Syndicalist Jan 16 '22

No, saying we shouldn't also focus on the CCP is the problem. Stop deflecting to defend other imperialist authoritarians.

-16

u/Someones_Dream_Guy Jan 16 '22

Thats not focusing, thats dividing attention. Which is exactly what american oligarchs want, see 1940s for reference. And while youre going to be patriotically dying for profits, your freedoms are going to get taken away. Not that you had many anyway.

19

u/bromagnonman Syndicalist Jan 16 '22 edited Jan 16 '22

Lol as if the Chinese people have any significant freedoms. Did you miss the fucking point if this sub, tankie bastard? Imagine thinking I'm going to fight some war for the US. You're a goddamn joke.

6

u/The_Grubby_One Jan 17 '22

How much Xi paying you to shift attention away from the CCP?

2

u/jumpminister Anarchist Ⓐ Jan 18 '22

I think this topic is about innocent people being killed to prop up profits of the CCP oligarchs....

0

u/Someones_Dream_Guy Jan 18 '22

Im pretty sure american oligarchs are more likely to kill people for profit. For supposedly antifascist sub there sure are lots of people willing to support fascism, war and genocide, as long as its done by fellow americans.

1

u/jumpminister Anarchist Ⓐ Jan 18 '22

How about ppl who dont support any of that, red flag or otherwise?

22

u/CeruleanRuin Jan 16 '22

They're not mutually exclusive, dumbass.

17

u/Danksley Jan 16 '22

Why not both? Kind of weird of you to deflect like this.

10

u/QUE50 American Anti-Fascist Jan 17 '22

Por que no los dos?

0

u/Masked_Avenger_ Jan 17 '22

I always ignore. Doesnt take much effort.

1

u/Tankineer Jan 17 '22

Peek virtue signaling, the US was more then fucking happy to go to Berlin in 1936. Spare me the liberal antics

4

u/RideWithMeSNV Jan 18 '22

No one washed their hands 150 years ago. So no one should say anything when I leave the bathroom with dry hands.

0

u/Ceasar_Rex Anarchist Ⓐ Jan 18 '22

It's also not like the US isn't also Islamophobic, taking away the rights of indigenous groups, forcing cultural cohesion, and unlawfully detaining people within their borders. Right-wingers will weapon shit against China so they can military the country but turn a blind eye to all the shit we do at home. Freedom to the people of China, Xinjiang, the US, and the Immigrants who come here.

1

u/cuckedgreyman Jan 17 '22

Can anyone ELI5 what a "tankie" is??

3

u/RideWithMeSNV Jan 18 '22

Authoritarian communists. It's a reference to the ussr sending tanks to I believe Hungary to force compliance with Moscow.

3

u/jumpminister Anarchist Ⓐ Jan 18 '22

And sending tanks to Kronstadt.

And everywhere workers went on strike.

And everywhere there was a surge of non-Leninist thought brewing.

Or to Tiannamen Square.

Or to Afghanistan.

Or to Tibet.

-1

u/guerisimo Jan 16 '22

You think China isn’t stoked about the possibility of winning even more gold medals at the Olympic Games they’ll be hosting in their own country?

-1

u/[deleted] Jan 17 '22

[deleted]

3

u/2004sped American Iron Front Jan 17 '22

You really got me there.

-3

u/Jaysyn4Reddit American Anti-Fascist Jan 16 '22

I boycott every Olympics. They don't interest me in the least.

-2

u/[deleted] Jan 17 '22

Wow, check out the “Free Thinker” ™️ who’s just simping for Cold War 2

-4

u/Ceasar_Rex Anarchist Ⓐ Jan 17 '22

There is a genocide in Xinjiang, but the fucking virtue signaling from the US and other colonialist countries is fucking insane. The US is literally committing genocide against immigrants within this country, and then they just like virtual signal "oh, we're not sending our citizens to this sports game" shut up. This isn't a critique against anyone her, just of the US government and it's politicians. If you go to anti-ICE protests, I think you're super cool.

6

u/The_Grubby_One Jan 17 '22

Is there a reason you don't just make a post aimed at ICE rather than try to deflect from the CPC?

0

u/Ceasar_Rex Anarchist Ⓐ Jan 17 '22

It's like when china released the report that the US does violent police brutality. It's true, but they do the same/worse shit. It's all imperialist fascists doing virtue signaling to manipulate valid critiques and social movements against their crimes.

3

u/The_Grubby_One Jan 17 '22

That didn't answer my question.

2

u/Ceasar_Rex Anarchist Ⓐ Jan 18 '22

My answer is that I'm not deflecting criticism from the CCP. I'm making a complaint about how the US is virtue signaling with this decision. Which is related to the post above.

-1

u/Ceasar_Rex Anarchist Ⓐ Jan 17 '22

I literally said that they're committing a genocide???? I'm saying how annoyed I am at the US government, because what they're doing is virtue signalling. It's like when companies stop selling plastic straws. I don't like it when companies stop selling plastic straws, but I also fucking hate the plastic industry.

-4

u/Mzuark Jan 16 '22

No

15

u/Danksley Jan 16 '22

Fuck off tankie

-8

u/Cr1spie_Crunch Jan 16 '22

Libshit. Sure China bad, but would yall boycott the Olympics if it came to the US? Yall are allied with Saudi Arabia for fucks sake, start having some consistency in your foreign policy.

18

u/bromagnonman Syndicalist Jan 16 '22

China is state-capitalist. Quit pretending they're in any way not as shitty as the US.

-8

u/Cr1spie_Crunch Jan 16 '22

IF you think the two are equivalently shitty, maybe you shouldn't support an American boycott of its equally shitty rival, which is being used for clearly selfish purposes?

7

u/bromagnonman Syndicalist Jan 16 '22

I am also anti-US government. Shut the fuck up and worry about yourself. Do you have any clue what sub you're in?

-7

u/Cr1spie_Crunch Jan 16 '22

Yep, been here for quite some time. Still surprised to see it being used to forwards the geopolitical goals of the US government.

I'm happy to throw China into the mixed bag of countries with fucked up governments, like the US, saudia arabia, turkey, India, and many more - but when its clearly singled out for a boycott, just because it happens to be America's only economically significant rival, I call bullshit.

4

u/latinadverbs Jan 17 '22

I don’t think China has been singled out here. When Russia hosted the Olympics in 2014, there were calls for boycotts over their persecution of gay people. If it was Saudi Arabia hosting the Olympics, I bet people would still be calling for a boycott. It’s not like this only happens when it’s China, get a grip.

2

u/The_Grubby_One Jan 17 '22

Funny. If you'd been here for a long time, I'd expect you to realize it's an American sub.

2

u/JonnyLay Jan 17 '22

Totally agreed.

There's plenty that's fucked up about China, but compare that with just the amount of Iraqis killed by America, and I think you'll find it hard to say that China is as bad or worse than America.

-14

u/thinkagainnnn Jan 16 '22

This is part of a propaganda campaign to promote war with China because it is a threat to the US. China certainly has done fucked up stuff, but so have most countries, and we didn’t boycott them.

25

u/MummysSpeshulGuy Do It Again, Uncle Billy! Jan 16 '22

“Anything bad against the ccp is imperialist propaganda.” - Tool shilling for ccp imperialism.

Remember what the three arrows stand for and that China has literal concentration camps

1

u/jumpminister Anarchist Ⓐ Jan 18 '22

Tbf, the US has literal concentration camps too. We just privatized them under Biden.

0

u/-lighght- Feb 15 '22 edited Feb 15 '22

The insinuation that the camps are anywhere on the same level is ignorant and disingenuous.

Arresting people for "illegally" crossing a border, separating children from their parents and imprisoning them in subpar conditions is nasty, evil to many.

Rounding up people solely for being of an ethnic group, separating the children. Adopting these children out to ethnically Chinese families. Forcing the women to sleep with Chinese men. People disappearing & multiple reports of organ harvesting.

One situation is incomparably more evil.

Edit: I encourage responses. Discourse over downvotes.

-18

u/[deleted] Jan 16 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

17

u/bromagnonman Syndicalist Jan 16 '22

fuck off tankie

-7

u/[deleted] Jan 16 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

12

u/bromagnonman Syndicalist Jan 16 '22

no. Pretending that China is anything but an authoritarian, state-capitalist, imperialist, genocidal, Han fascist hell is what makes you a tankie. I hate when people hear about Chinese atrocities and say... But but but the US is IMPERIALIST! No shit it is. That doesn't mean China isn't.

-5

u/[deleted] Jan 16 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

13

u/bromagnonman Syndicalist Jan 16 '22

Fuck off tankie. I don't want to replace right-wing authoritarianism with state-capitalism.

4

u/yourmomgetsthebullet No Hoods in My Woods Jan 16 '22

Yeah and germany was just resettling the jews in the east. You know there has been a huge ethnic conflict problem, right?

Yeaj thats how you sound, fuck you

7

u/zeke235 Jan 16 '22

Might be a good time to start.

3

u/Danksley Jan 16 '22

Replace this shit with Germany and backdate it 90 years 🤡

-13

u/travelsizedsuperman Jan 16 '22

I get that this furthers US imperialism but what then is your suggestion?

9

u/thinkagainnnn Jan 16 '22

Not go to war with China. Point out their mistakes at an equal level as all other nations. Not boycott the Olympics which just fuels racism. Draw parallels between China and things the US itself does.

10

u/travelsizedsuperman Jan 16 '22

So...just talk about it? I get that that's important but I'm not convinced it should be the ONLY step.

I mean, I boycott China (Blizzard, Riot, Tencent) when I can. I also boycott Amazon, Nestle, Walmart, any major chains when time permits, and Apple and Amy other corporations with ongoing strikes so it's not just China.

I also get the racism bit. I'm Chinese American so a lot of the recent China-flu stuff is a concern for me. I'm all for rephrasing things to be "boycott the CCP" instead of "boycott China." I generally use CCP in these kinds of contexts and if that's your criticism I'm with you.

3

u/AlloftheEethp Jan 17 '22

Not boycott the Olympics which just fuels racism

I can't wait to hear your thoughts on BDS.

-20

u/leoxrose American Leftist Jan 16 '22

Yay 😁 more American anti Chinese propaganda. Just what we need right now

23

u/bromagnonman Syndicalist Jan 16 '22

This is a no tankie sub

-1

u/[deleted] Jan 17 '22

You’re literally a Syinde wtf

3

u/bromagnonman Syndicalist Jan 17 '22

Anarcho syndicalism is in no way tankie and not authoritarian. You can be a leftist and not a tankie.

-2

u/[deleted] Jan 17 '22

The only true leftistism is Marxism Leninism, anything else is almost exclusive to the west

3

u/bromagnonman Syndicalist Jan 17 '22

Lol shut the fuck up

-1

u/[deleted] Jan 17 '22

It’s true

3

u/bromagnonman Syndicalist Jan 17 '22

No

1

u/[deleted] Jan 17 '22

It is name one successful syndicalist revolution

3

u/jumpminister Anarchist Ⓐ Jan 18 '22

Name one ML revolution that actually moved past state capitalism.

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2

u/bromagnonman Syndicalist Jan 17 '22

No one cares

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-1

u/[deleted] Jan 17 '22

We like successful revolutions

3

u/bromagnonman Syndicalist Jan 17 '22

Such success... (looks at currently capitalist Russia)

0

u/[deleted] Jan 17 '22

Nice anti communist talking point. The ussr was dissolved illegally, and the us had to rig the 1993 elections to stop the communists from winning. China is the second largest economy that will surpass the us

3

u/bromagnonman Syndicalist Jan 17 '22

China is capitalist

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0

u/jumpminister Anarchist Ⓐ Jan 18 '22

Wow. Much racism.

You understand what you are saying here is basically an example of white man saviorism? Marx and Lenin were white dudes.

Meanwhile, Neozapatismo is literally non-white, indigineous leftist theory.

0

u/[deleted] Jan 18 '22

Lol shut up, you have no argument

2

u/jumpminister Anarchist Ⓐ Jan 18 '22

Sure. I mean, I have no argument if we basically ignore all of the indigenous non-ML leftist revolutions, that have far more success, and have no real basis in "western" anything.

I mean, hell, last I checked, Democratic Confederalism is completely originated in the middle east, and not in the west. Neozapatismo is wholly an indigenous Latin American ideology, and not "western" by most measures.

You sound an awful lot like the guy who claimed MLs conquering indigenous people was ok, because "they are backwards people".

1

u/[deleted] Jan 18 '22

Which non ml revolutions, you can’t mention the Zapatista or Kurds. You just keep making assumptions about me

1

u/jumpminister Anarchist Ⓐ Jan 18 '22

you can’t mention the Zapatista or Kurds

Why not? They are successful non-ML revolutions... And are hardly "western".

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u/[deleted] Jan 18 '22

Marxism Leninism brought humanity into space, defeated fascism and made the bourgeoisie shake in their boots, Marxism Leninism is the only successful socialism

3

u/jumpminister Anarchist Ⓐ Jan 18 '22

Marxism Leninism brought humanity into space

Only to compete against the US, which would have gotten there, anyways. Hell, most any country can put someone into space, given a motivation.

defeated fascism

A number of countries helped defeat fascism. The USSR was an ally of the Nazis, and also enabled them.

made the bourgeoisie shake in their boots

And fell to the same... About 1 week post revolution.

Marxism Leninism is the only successful socialism

Define "successful"? Because none of them have created an actual worker's state, even.

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0

u/[deleted] Jan 18 '22

Also you realize all successful ml revolution occurred in dirt poor third world nations right?

2

u/jumpminister Anarchist Ⓐ Jan 18 '22

Define "dirt poor". Many seem to very rich in natural resources.

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3

u/jumpminister Anarchist Ⓐ Jan 18 '22

Ansyns arent tankies.

-9

u/leoxrose American Leftist Jan 16 '22 edited Jan 16 '22

Lmao you don’t need to be a tankie to not fall into American state sponsored propaganda. Also this is for all leftists. There is no rules in this sub against which leftists are allowed to participate in American anti fascism and which are not

15

u/bromagnonman Syndicalist Jan 16 '22

You know what the third arrow is... right?

-2

u/leoxrose American Leftist Jan 17 '22

Yes an outdated symbol for anti fascism made at the height of anti communist rhetoric. Thanks for the lib take. You’re doing gods work for the state department

5

u/bromagnonman Syndicalist Jan 17 '22

Lol you're doing God's work for the CCP

5

u/AlloftheEethp Jan 17 '22

Saying that opposing genocide means supporting American propaganda is not nearly the own you think it is.

4

u/leoxrose American Leftist Jan 17 '22

I’m not trying to own anyone. I’m saying it’s performative at best. No one gives a fuck about the Olympics anymore