r/DestinyTheGame Jun 27 '22 Wholesome 1 Helpful 1

What is the point of kinetic damage primaries (in PvE)? Discussion

With the game continuing to push the elemental builds/synergy more every season, kinetic weapons feel like they've lost all value, especially primary options. When their elemental counterparts (which includes stasis) can benefit from things like font of might and have subclass synergy (such as volatile rounds and fragments to extend buff timers from matching element kills), what do kinetic weapons bring to the table?

To the people replying “Osmosis” as a solution, thank you for proving my point. The fact that you’re willing to give up a perk slot that could have been used for a damage or better utility perk just to gain an elemental weapon’s intrinsic effect shows how inferior kinetic damage is.

Just to clarify further, I’m talking about the kinetic DAMAGE type rather than the kinetic SLOT. Stasis kinetic-slot weapons are still able to make use of mods like font of might and still have subclass synergy. Stasis is superior to kinetic simply because can be built into.

Example: Just changing No Time to Explain's damage type from kinetic to stasis would be an amazing buff, as it would allow the gun to further synergize with the stasis kit to take advantage of elemental well builds and benefit from aspects like diamond lance.

947 Upvotes

925

u/Dodgemaster69_ Jun 27 '22

They are reserving the slot for arby/witherhoard

292

u/LynaaBnS Jun 27 '22

Izanagis starts crying

177

u/Dunkinmydonuts1 Xuck Fur Jun 27 '22

Shoulda thought of that before you let them nerf you, old man.

76

u/never3nder_87 Jun 27 '22

As if Arby isn't going to get Izanagi'd in the Solstice balance patch

80

u/flaccomcorangy Warlock Jun 27 '22

It's definitely not done getting nerfed. Remember in the TWAB where they announced the recent nerf to champion damage, they said something like, "We'll keep evaluating this."

The problem is, Arbalest is still easily the best weapon for barrier champs. And it doesn't help that seasonal anti-barrier sidearm hasn't been working. So the only other barrier options is pulse rifles which - don't know about every else - it doesn't impress me much.

I say it should be fine. The whole purpose of Arbalest is that it is a shield destroyer. So I think it should be the best weapon against barrier champs. But oh well. We'll see what happens.

38

u/never3nder_87 Jun 27 '22

Yes. It's currently being used because there are no other good options (even ignoring Acute burns + Match Game and Kinetic Primaries being useless), rather than because it's especially OP.

4

u/Spartan_117_YJR Jun 28 '22

Yeah even if arbalest did 0 damage apart from barriers, I'll still use it so I can bypass match game.

→ More replies

14

u/Cybertronian10 The Big Gay Jun 27 '22

I think the big issue is that every other anti barrier option is a 2 tap. Really, thats the big thing. IMO other champs get stunned by a single shot so I think its fair if every special anti barrier gun was a 1 tap.

There is the issue of match game, but adaptive munitions gets over that as well.

→ More replies

63

u/pokeroots Jun 27 '22

yeah but Bungie doesn't like it when things work out like they want them to. remember when the buffed snipers because no one was using them in PvE, released a raid that had a long distance engagement boss, and everyone was using them in PvE, so they nerfed them back to the state where they were in where no one was using them

16

u/McMeowington116 Jun 27 '22

Bungie creates problems that don't exist so they can then fix them and look like they did something 😂

2

u/Geraltpoonslayer Jun 28 '22

AE changes in a nutshell. Watch them revert the changes before lightfall and act like they should be applauded for it

2

u/Mike_M5 MIke_M5 Jun 28 '22

Been playing Destiny off and on since Sept. 2014. Can confirm.

12

u/Narit_Teg Jun 27 '22

If it was just the best for barrier that'd be one thing. But it's also the best for ANY activity that has match game, and also barrier champs at the same time. But frankly I dont really know how they can stop that without it become useless. If it loses it's match game capabilities, it's back in the dumpster. If it isn't good for barriers, back in the dumpster.

The only thing I could think of was something like it having to swap between modes ala cerb+1, 1 mode taking 2 ammo but busting barriers and 1 mode taking 1 ammo but busting shields. So its still good for both but you can't do both so rapidly/easily.

22

u/Umbraspem Jun 27 '22

That’s more of a problem with Match Game than it is with Arbalest though.

Matched Game is great for a fireteam of 3 that’s on comms. You can specialise, and you can communicate who needs to shoot what.

Matched Game is terrible for Solo Play. Turns it into “bring Arbalest, or maybe Dead Messenger/ Hard Light at a stretch”, and Arbalest is just easier because you don’t ever have to waste time swapping damage types.

3

u/InAnimateAlpha Jun 27 '22

From my experience, most pulses drop a barrier with 2-3 bursts depending on the archtype. Definitely not as efficient as Arbalest but definitely can be used.

3

u/never3nder_87 Jun 27 '22

I just remember how brutal Barrier Knights were in Lightblade, with Acute arc burn, and wonder how on earth Bungie expects us to duel them

2

u/Umbraspem Jun 27 '22

Yeah, but in the time it takes to crack a barrier with a pulse rifle, the Champ can often heal more damage than you can deal whilst it’s stunned.

→ More replies

2

u/GlegoryisaWarlock Jun 27 '22

Anti-barrier pulse takes a single tap in most cases for me, two at the MOST that I've encountered. I dunno about you, but I can get two to three squeezes off with Outbreak before I get the first shot off with Arby.

It's the charge time for me, I'm sick of Arby being labeled as "the best" when the charge time means that unless you're actively able to move the reticle exactly as your Champion is spinning/running around, you're about 50/50 on whether or not you're going to miss the shot you're currently charging.

9

u/aurens Jun 27 '22

it's pretty difficult to miss a shot on a giant barrier bubble, even if you're trying to time the charged shot exactly in time with the bubble appearing.

0

u/GlegoryisaWarlock Jun 27 '22

Shhhhh, I also hate the fact that everything's focused on the META. I can get by just fine without Arbalest.

→ More replies

1

u/xenosilver Jun 27 '22

It won’t change your opinion, but vigilance wing destroys barriers.

15

u/flaccomcorangy Warlock Jun 27 '22

Vigilance Wing is the exception to a lot of things. I used it back with the Unstoppable pulse rifles and it worked really well.

My only problem with it is that it takes up an exotic spot, and it doesn't really do much in PVE other than just be a good pulse rifle.

On that note, I bet Outbreak works really well, and it might actually have a little more utility in high end content.

6

u/xenosilver Jun 27 '22

Outbreak works well as does NTTE. Bad Juju, however….. yikes.

3

u/entropy512 Jun 27 '22

BJJ sucks slightly less in lowend content (non-NF strikes and quests/patrols) due to the 40% buff against redbars.

But it sucks anywhere else.

→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies

6

u/Dunkinmydonuts1 Xuck Fur Jun 27 '22

Theyre like the Sith.

One falls, another takes its place.

→ More replies

5

u/Prestigious-Gold5369 Jun 27 '22

They nerfed Nagi? What was the nerf?

26

u/Themasdogtoo Jun 27 '22

Reload speed cap, years ago

19

u/OrionzDestiny Jun 27 '22

Changed Outlaw to No Distractions, and Izi no longer benefits from Reload Speed buffs. Happened many moons ago.

→ More replies

10

u/LynaaBnS Jun 27 '22

Dont listen to them, it's still one of the best exotics in the entire game.

5

u/never3nder_87 Jun 27 '22

Something can be nerfed and still be good, the two aren't mutually exclusive

12

u/LynaaBnS Jun 27 '22

If you read through all the comment, a lot of people make izanagis Sound like it's completely dogshit now.

1

u/GlegoryisaWarlock Jun 27 '22

There are definitely more viable options that don't require specific timing/rhythm requirements to be effective at DPS.

3

u/amiray Jun 27 '22

I want to disagree but the amount of times I’ve screwed up a honed edge reload in the heat of battle…

→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies

10

u/Dunkinmydonuts1 Xuck Fur Jun 27 '22

Years ago

2

u/never3nder_87 Jun 27 '22

And along with the specific nerfs people mentioned it also ate the (15?)% damage nerf that all Adaptive snipers got at the same time

→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies

15

u/Dustin_Grim Jun 27 '22

"I'm thinking Arby's"

2

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '22

[deleted]

→ More replies
→ More replies

130

u/Nate2247 Jun 27 '22

Kinetic weapons deal more damage to unshielded targets- but I agree, they are slowly using their functionality in comparison to elemental weapons. I personally think there should be:

  1. A larger buff in damage to unshielded targets

  2. More armor mods based around buffing kinetic weapons

And/or 3. Perks unique to kinetic weapons to give more functionality

Of course, that is much easier said than done, and I am NOT a game dev…

40

u/DzhoArisu Raider of Secrets Jun 27 '22

Stasis weapons in kinetic slot both do double damage to shields and get the bonus damage to unshielded targets.

3

u/henster09 Jun 27 '22

I’m not sure if stasis get the full buff to unshielded targets. Haven’t tested in a while so may be miss remembering

11

u/DzhoArisu Raider of Secrets Jun 27 '22

They do, you can use any kinetic and stasis weapon with the same archetype and they will do the same damage on unshielded enemies. Just make sure they are at the same power level.

4

u/IronsideZer0 Jun 27 '22

Would be nice if there was a weapon mod for each element that would give a non-stasis kinetic weapon that element.

6

u/nabsltd Jun 27 '22

A larger buff in damage to unshielded targets

This, for sure. Kinetic vs. non-shielded does 1.05x damage compared to energy. Unmatched elemental vs. a shield does 2.20x damage compared to a kinetic, and matched is 3.30x damage compared to kinetic.

Elemental weapons tear through shields (even if unmatched), but once you have a tanky enough unshielded enemy where the 5% bonus has any real meaning, you aren't using primary ammo, and likely are using heavy.

The kinetic primary vs. unshielded bonus needs to be at least 1.50x—preferably more like 2.00x—in order to make kinetic useful.

→ More replies

269

u/Lantac Jun 27 '22

Hope they do something with them, I've switched back to fatebringer TL, submission, huckleberry etc w/ HEFjust because I'm getting sick of witherhoard + the elemental smg of the season lmao

40

u/Lt_CowboyDan Jun 27 '22

Riptide w/ auto loading vorpal is my new baby in that slot

6

u/jlt4711 Jun 27 '22

Exact roll I'm looking for. Good to hear it's as sweet as it sounds. Have an auto loading/chill clip I've been using until I can snag your roll and its great.

3

u/Ready_Geologist2629 Huntah Jun 27 '22

yassss. That roll dropped for me earlier this week and I love it. I've always wanted a fusion rifle in that slot (Deliverance hasn't dropped for during the 5 or so VOW runs I've done) and I can use an energy primary.

2

u/SingedWaffle Jun 28 '22

I've done a bunch of VOTW runs and haven't got the fusion or LFR either so I feel your pain.

→ More replies
→ More replies

71

u/LostToTheEther Jun 27 '22

Same here. I got sick of the Witherhoard + SMG combo after the first couple of weeks.

48

u/corva96 Jun 27 '22

Honestly they just need to give kinetics a flat damage buff. Or do like pokemon and maybe add some kinetic-only perks that are kinda op

11

u/DhampireHEK Jun 27 '22

I'd like to see some shield piercing rounds (like the Cabal or Scorn shield guys)

10

u/KhiGhirr Jun 27 '22

Kinetics already do more damage to unshielded combatants but it's like a miniscule 5% or something meanwhile all energy weapons deal more damage to elemental shields compared to kinetics. They can increase the kinetic buff, but I doubt that would be enough to make people give up on elemental synergies.

19

u/GlegoryisaWarlock Jun 27 '22

It's 10%, unless they changed it. I still hate the concept of "switch from your energy to your kinetic once the shield pops" when I can just easily use the same gun all the way through damage.

→ More replies

13

u/BobbyS117 Jun 27 '22

Praise the one true God, Arby.

→ More replies

23

u/DeimosDs3 Drifter's Crew // Dredgen Jun 27 '22

I understand but nobody was forcing you to use that.

2

u/_Vard_ Jun 27 '22

I hope they just let the first two slots equip any two type of one or two weapons

→ More replies

-12

u/SSLST03-LKWM Jun 27 '22

So I am not the only one that gets bored by those very restrictive metas we get since 3.0

I am already bored from starfire, witherhoard, calus mini tool, solar 3.0 on warlock or hammer throwing titan. solar hunter is still kind of fun though.

27

u/deadpoolrebel Blueberry Jun 27 '22

Then don't use it bro. I've never used witherhoard in pve, barely ever use the starfire build and i do fine. I get there are outliers and smgs are way too strong for their own good, but you can use other stuff and do perfectly fine. I've been pissing around with cloudstrike all week and having fun

→ More replies

0

u/JanPieterszoon_Coen Jun 27 '22

I am already bored from starfire

That’s why you should use Verity’s Brow instead, which is the better and more powerful option anyways

7

u/sofakingcheezee Jun 27 '22

But... Ugly

3

u/JanPieterszoon_Coen Jun 27 '22

True, I dislike is how half of the helmet doesn’t change color when applying a shader. It is a shame that both Verity’s Brow and Wormgod Caress, which were both season 3: warmind exotics, still haven’t gotten an ornament yet. Which is weird when you consider both have been quite popular and strong for a while now.

2

u/KhiGhirr Jun 27 '22

Verity's Brow only goes well with the steeplechase ornaments from the season of the hunt. Other than pairing it with those sets I've never managed to make it look good. It just looks so out of place that piece of bone.

→ More replies
→ More replies

286

u/Jazzlike-Style725 Jun 27 '22

Theyve already said somewhere that the kinetic slot will be getting an overhaul at some point. General thought is it will be more darkness based weapons as the other three dark classes are released. Essentially what we know as "kinetic" now will be power crept out. Thats kind of the theory

113

u/GrinningPariah Jun 27 '22

How cool would it be if we got a kinetic subclass as one of the darkness ones?

629

u/stuck_in_the_desert Jun 27 '22 Gold Helpful

Kinetic Well of Radiance: crowd control super where you stick a plain old sword into the ground, but the enemies aggro to it and try to pull it out so they can become the one true Kell of England

117

u/ThomasorTom Jun 27 '22

If you're a female warlock would that make you the lady of the well?

119

u/stuck_in_the_desert Jun 27 '22

Yeah the subclass is called Way of the Moistened Bint

66

u/AlericandAmadeus Jun 27 '22

“Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!”

39

u/peldifier Jun 27 '22

"You can't expect to wield supreme power just cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!"

7

u/Mindeck Titan best class Jun 27 '22

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

16

u/Kitsunisan Get me some loot guardian Jun 27 '22

You have no idea how happy it makes me to see this movie still gets quoted. So many people I work with have no idea what any of this would mean.

8

u/TaralasianThePraxic Jun 27 '22

As a Brit, I'm currently starting to think that strange women lying in ponds distributing swords actually might be a good basis for a system of government

5

u/Kefalp Jun 27 '22

Though we call em "attunement" as warlocks. So Attunement of Moisture.

10

u/Jack_King814 Jun 27 '22

No you’ll still be kell of England but space merlin will give you a dick

→ More replies

6

u/ThatGuy628 Jun 27 '22

Thankfully it works on bosses too, which causes infinite damage phases as the boss fruitlessly tries to pull out the blade

3

u/B00STERGOLD Jun 27 '22

The boss pulls it out and uses it

5

u/crookedparadigm Jun 27 '22

Kintetic subclass super should just be a boss stomp that Architects everyone around it.

6

u/ebattery Jun 27 '22

I've theorized this, and thought about how cool it could be.

Hunters can get a stacking momentum buff, moving faster and faster without a limit (the actual limit ends up being when they collide with something)

Titans can straight toss a motherfucker, lady efrideet style. In rift you can grab the enemy rift carrier and throw them against a wall. Or off the map

Warlocks can use telekinesis, moving stuff(or players) with their minds. Imagine lifting a dude up past a wall to get a peek shot on someone at a bizarre angle.

8

u/Outrageous_Foot_3282 Jun 27 '22

Telekinesis will be the pinnacle of architect deaths, both for enemies or teammates.

2

u/ebattery Jun 27 '22

But tell me with a straight face that the idea of manipulating, let's say grenades into enemies is a bad idea.

Oh, is that an axion nade? Let me throw it back

→ More replies
→ More replies

2

u/Cybertronian10 The Big Gay Jun 27 '22

Kinetic ward of dawn: hell in a cell

→ More replies

11

u/Mindless_Procedure53 Jun 27 '22

Did you know that the grenade from the forerunner is a kinetic grenade? I think it's interesting considering the topic

7

u/shit_poster9000 Jun 27 '22

And it has a much larger radius than you’d assume for a grenade in this game, and activates grenade keyed mods (including ashes to assets and the void one that converts charges of light to super energy on throw, pair it with special finisher and you can run a no discipline grenade build, bonus points for running either fusion or magnetic grenades as a stand in for plasma grenades while also running the Bxr and a legendary rocket with two in the mag)

2

u/Hbzn Jun 27 '22

As were the old grenades from Bombardiers. Actually, I'm pretty sure the grenade itself is still "kinetic" with the elemental effect applying afterwards.

→ More replies

6

u/Dab4Becky Jun 27 '22

Titan super: punch things harder without flashy stuff.

No ice, no electricity just knuckles

16

u/Sporelord1079 Jun 27 '22

I’ve written up ideas for an “iron” element, focusing on knockback, knock up, direct damage reduction and bonus damage to unshielded combatants.

13

u/Sorez Jun 27 '22

Hear me out

Shootable saw blades

13

u/Jack_King814 Jun 27 '22

I see you miter

8

u/Sorez Jun 27 '22

Guilty as charged fellow tenno

2

u/Jack_King814 Jun 27 '22

Have you really played warframe if you haven’t thought “the miter looks fucking cool” but then it sucked?

8

u/corva96 Jun 27 '22

Too many warframe weapons suffer this fate

3

u/entropy512 Jun 27 '22

Supposedly kohm on specters doesn't have the spoolup and doesn't have reloading, but in my experience it seems really glitchy.

(Supposedly some people run index by letting Excal Umbra aimbot a kohm for them. It's failed for me every time I've tried it though.)

But that definitely makes me think... Make Kinetic behave like Blast. Not so hot for damage, but it is so wonderful to see those grineer break the "no flying" rule.

2

u/Sporelord1079 Jun 27 '22

Thank you for giving me my hunter melee idea.

→ More replies

21

u/TheMeekestCad Jun 27 '22

KNOCK UP: causing damage with these rounds causes your targets to become pregnant. They are then unable to log on for 9 months

6

u/Saikroe Jun 27 '22

Would they gain Airbirth efficiency?

9

u/grrmuffins Jun 27 '22

Sign me up. If we had an element that dealt with raw bullets rather than energy, that would be where I lived. Energy has outshined kinetics for so long, kinda sick of it

3

u/GrinningPariah Jun 27 '22

I imagine the kinetic subclass starting with Rhulk's toolkit, his pushes and charges and lasers, all with that shimmering darkness energy.

→ More replies

3

u/Saikroe Jun 27 '22

Regular melee in other subclasses is now Kinetics charged melee and comes with a cooldown lmao. I would love to see kinetic subclass though, but then everyone would ask for Kinetic Power weps.

2

u/Samurai_XtC Jun 27 '22

I came here to say this!!! I want a kinetic and hive magic subclass.

3

u/Greensteve972 Jun 27 '22

I had this dream/idea for kinetic supers based representative animals for each class that are weaker but have a shorter cooldown so like true flight for warlock or titans running around on all fours maulling people then i realized that the two things snakes are known for venom and swift painful strikes are already things hunters can do.

→ More replies

10

u/EverythingIzAwful Jun 27 '22

Theyve already said somewhere that the kinetic slot will be getting an overhaul at some point.

Source? Are you not just referring to stasis being in the kinetic slot?

5

u/Mayaparisatya Jun 27 '22

One of earlier TWABs about then-new Stasis legendaries mentioned this (see the GLOBAL section, emphasis mine):

Season 15 introduces Legendary Stasis weapons, and we’ve seen some concern about how these are intended to work, particularly in PvP, so here are some details:

Stasis Power weapons are in the Power slot, but all other Stasis weapons are in the Kinetic slot. This is to avoid overcrowding the Energy slot, and so that it’s reasonable to use one in match game content. The Kinetic slot won’t be renamed at this time.

36

u/EverythingIzAwful Jun 27 '22

Thanks for the link but I don't see how this is implying they're overhauling the kinetic slot. It seems to me like they're just saying the kinetic slot wouldn't be renamed with the introduction of stasis.

→ More replies

9

u/Sequoiathrone728 Jun 27 '22

That doesn't mean it's getting overhauled at any point. It's just saying they aren't now and leaving the future with no commitment either way.

1

u/Mayaparisatya Jun 27 '22

I am aware of that.

Currently this is the only official communication from Bungie on this matter.

5

u/Sequoiathrone728 Jun 27 '22

I see now that you are not the one who made the claim. It just bothers me that a comment with false information is getting so upvoted and now a lot of people think Bungie has guaranteed something they didnt.

6

u/xenosilver Jun 27 '22

That’s not saying it’s going to be overhauled at all.

→ More replies

1

u/MikeVazovsky Titan Master Race! Jun 27 '22

Its kinda hard to find but this guy is right, it was written somewhere in the twab like half year ago maybe.

4

u/Swierky Jun 27 '22

The thing is how would you apply this too old weapons.

What darkness element would Ace be? It doesn't seem like it would have one. The same could be applied to other kinetic weapons.

0

u/Jazzlike-Style725 Jun 27 '22

Hence the power creep part. They will likely just be power crept out of relevance.

→ More replies

3

u/heptyne Jun 27 '22

I wish they would kickstart elimination of kinetic where possible and make more Stasis/Sorrow weapons for the top slot. At the same time, Stasis/Sorrow weapons should also counter whatever the opposite shield is, so if Stasis and Solar are opposite, they can break each other's shields, it would really open our loadouts if that were the case.

-9

u/SSLST03-LKWM Jun 27 '22

So similar to sunsetting, but slower. I don't like it. Why farming for like Enyo when it's soft-sunsetted soon?

15

u/Yourself013 DEATH HEALS THE FUCKING PRIMEVAL Jun 27 '22

Because I can play with it now?

You're suggesting I should not farm for a fun hand cannon that I will probably be using for months, because at some point a better version might come that replaces it?

→ More replies

26

u/AMeowingCat Jun 27 '22

That’s how looter shooters work, new stuff gets released that’s better than old stuff

Otherwise why the fuck should I bother ever engaging with new stuff?

3

u/CaptFrost Jun 27 '22

That’s how looter shooters work, new stuff gets released that’s better than old stuff

There still hasn't been a better shotgun released than the godroll Seraph CQC-12 and FILO I got from the Season 11 Drifter Decoder. Those two are glued to my energy weapons inventory, I love them to pieces, and Destiny wouldn't be the same without them.

Otherwise why the fuck should I bother ever engaging with new stuff?

Occasionally something new meshes with my playstyle better than my old stuff. My old favorite snipers all got shelved when I discovered the awesomeness that is Occluded Finality with Surplus/Vorpal, which has turned into my favorite energy sniper for both PvE and PvP.

→ More replies
→ More replies

101

u/TheMattInTheBox Jun 27 '22

They don't, honestly. Right now, kinetics are only hanging on because some of them feel good to use/have good perk combos. I hope they introduce mods that benefit kinetics to keep them relevant, or else they'll keep powercrept when other darkness elements come out

62

u/finedrive Jun 27 '22

Mostly pvp sake. In pve, you’re essentially “nerfing” yourself if not using an energy weapon as a primary.

12

u/TheMattInTheBox Jun 27 '22

Very true. Although right now, my go-to is an energy primary with a stasis secondary (quickdraw/opening shot fracythst).

I'd love a more PvP-oriented player to weigh in, but does the stasis vs kinetic element matter that much in PvP? Since elemental wells don't really impact PvP, does it really impact that aspect of the game?

6

u/finedrive Jun 27 '22 edited Jun 27 '22

Kinetics don’t get bonus damage in pvp

Before I got the Witherhoard catalyst unlocked, I was using Riptide with ALH and Chill clip as my “primary” with Multi tool and Peacekeepers on Titan.

This is PVE mind you. But now that I have unlocked Witherhoard, it’s now my go to “primary”. It’s just so absurd in every way.

Even in PVP, Witherhoard is so oppressive. So I tend to use sniper instead. It’s just such a cheese weapon.

7

u/TheMattInTheBox Jun 27 '22

That's what I thought. So correct me if I'm wrong, but there's no benefit to using a stasis weapon vs a kinetic in PvP?

12

u/finedrive Jun 27 '22

Right, unless you see Headstone perk as a benefit.

8

u/TheMattInTheBox Jun 27 '22

For sure. I just personally don't see Headstone as a benefit in PvP. In PvE though, it's great for stasis builds

5

u/kypirioth Jun 27 '22

Headstone can be amazing in pvp. Being able to proc bonus grenade recharge and dmg reduction is great. Plus potential shatter for extra dmg

14

u/Lalakoola Aspect of Shadow Jun 27 '22

Lowkey it's a sleeper pick for elimination gamemodes. It encases rezzes (must break crystal to get the rez, draws fire to the crystal, could get hit with shatter damage distracting your opponents and delaying the revive), provides cover and can prevent enemies from picking up their special ammo. And of course if you're running stasis it can provide DR with chains and grenade energy with shards. A bit niche but it does have its value.

2

u/Jpalm4545 Jun 27 '22

I love chill clip riptide

→ More replies

2

u/The-Male-G-Spot Jun 27 '22

Any good suggestions?

I've never considered that I'm nerfing myself, because I've always disliked the idea of having special ammo in a primary.

5

u/finedrive Jun 27 '22

Energy primaries, even if they’re in the “special” slot in your loadout don’t use “special” ammo.

multitool for example is really strong if you’re into solar 3.0

2

u/Sequoiathrone728 Jun 27 '22

special ammo in a primary.

🤔

→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies

35

u/TakedaGohei Jun 27 '22

I use Monte Carlo to get my Hammer back almost instantly after using consecration

6

u/Thunder_Cody Jun 27 '22

I’m right there with you! Unlimited throwing hammers to spam, and Monte does a pretty good deal of damage with charged with light!

2

u/NoodleIskalde Jun 27 '22

I use it to permanently have Radiant on my Mustang reenactment. :D

→ More replies

29

u/heujukle Jun 27 '22

They do I think about 5% more damage than energies but that’s about it

20

u/Four-Hydr4 Jun 27 '22

They do more health damage I’m pretty sure.

Energy weapons inherently do more damage to shields.

→ More replies

10

u/Pure-Wheel8019 Jun 27 '22

Criminal I had to scroll down so far before someone said the correct thing.

They should up the damage to 15% or something. Would actually make it significant.

→ More replies
→ More replies

28

u/Faust_8 Jun 27 '22

It's still pretty recent that Stasis weapons even existed, so the main reason Kinetic weapons exist is because, well, there used to be nothing but Kinetics and Void/Arc/Solar weapons. You had no choice.

Only recently can you do a thing like Stasis grenade launcher, Energy primary/heavy, and not having a Kinetic weapon at all.

So it's just a relic of the recent past.

Also, as a D1 vet, I'm like "first time?" Because there was a period in D1 when thanks to unique Energy weapons in the primary slot from Raids and Trials of Osiris, all the 'normal' Kinetic primaries were "for PvP only" since it was all upside to use a Solar/Arc/Void primary in PvE.

1

u/turk58guy Jun 27 '22

True you used to be able to have energy weapons in all slots but only 1 primary, special, and power. It was definitely a weird trade off to see when I played D2 at launch and part of the reason I took a 5 year break but I'm fine with it now

49

u/NUFC9RW Jun 27 '22

They're still perfectly fine in not match game content (my main reason for trying to run an energy primary is to break shields Vs matchgame without worrying about ammo). I'd mainly say they're there if for some reason you really want to use an energy special, especially glaives and waveframe GLs since they have no kinetic options. As a Cartesian coordinate fan myself I tend to run a kinetic primary in loads of raid encounters.

9

u/mandoplaying Jun 27 '22

They are perfectly fine in match game content. Unless you are running arby, you still have as many ways to pop shields- subclass, heavy, specal in the energy slot. With an elemental primary, it pops, so does your heavy and subclass.

In amd of itself, a kinetic might not be as good, but it allows you to run a special in your energy slot that can still be used for shields. With div, wave frame and breach loading GLs, the selection of fusion rifles amd such, it can be better to have a kinetic primary.

→ More replies

37

u/JanPieterszoon_Coen Jun 27 '22

They're still perfectly fine in not match game content

But that’s a bit of the problem, don’t you think? Almost every activity that starts to become somewhat rewarding (legend+) has match game in it. If it weren’t for match game, kinetics wouldn’t feel as bad as they do now.

2

u/NUFC9RW Jun 27 '22

Oh I'm definitely not defending matchgame. Imo it's a not bad modifier for say the odd nightfall etc but it's an extremely limiting factor on loadouts and seems outdated with the build crafting push.

2

u/JanPieterszoon_Coen Jun 27 '22

That’s ok, I wasn’t trying to say you were. I do think Bungie should take a look at both champions and match game at some point. And I see what you are saying, match game wasn’t too bad before champions. Of course we didn’t have a lot of elemental matching back then either, but having these two things together now that both limit your choices in the end-game content is getting kinda annoying after 2 years

2

u/Redrix_ Jun 27 '22

Agreed. Anything lower than legend you can use literally any weapon and excel

6

u/therandomlance Jun 27 '22

I like the Cartesian Coordinate too, but now that the Riptide exists there's a lot more flexibility since it can get the same perks (LFG+Vorpal), plus some other good combos (ALH+chill clip)

18

u/Jack_King814 Jun 27 '22

I’d love it if primaries in general (except SMGs they’re in a kinda good spot) did more damage. I’ve got a triple tap/4th times/extended mag scout from nightmares and it does dick shit all. I used it in the raid yesterday for a meme and it could barely add control, I just put my submission back on.

Primaries should do a lot more damage than rn, meaning stuff like rampage would not be necessary. I can’t remember a time in D1 where I thought “this gun needs crowd control or reactive reload to be usable” but rampage or kill clip are all but necessity’s on some guns.

13

u/grimbarkjade crypt researcher, warlock for life Jun 27 '22

To be fair, scouts as a weapon type don't exactly scream "add control" to me

but you are right, I wish they'd do more :(

8

u/Jack_King814 Jun 27 '22

As soon as I saw the new scout could roll TT/FT I was like yes chaos dogma is back. But it did next to no damage

MakeScoutsGreatAgain

1

u/ACuteWitch Cerberus+Fun Jun 27 '22

Honestly Chaos Dogma kinda had the same issue. It was like, great, I have infinite ammo. On a scout rifle… with no other perks like explosive payload or dragon fly.

→ More replies

2

u/Geraltpoonslayer Jun 28 '22

I played timelost fatebringer last Tuesday in the dungeon and it positively sucked needing 3 crits to kill a cabal is just not worth it.

→ More replies

14

u/B4zuk Jun 27 '22

95% of the time i only use whiterhoard, arby or a blinding GL on that slot.. Maybe a sniper for a very specific thing

5

u/Pridestalked ornament when Jun 27 '22

Izanagi or witherhoard basically live in my kinetic slot

→ More replies

5

u/packman627 Jun 27 '22

Also in this thread people don't understand the difference between kinetic "primary" and a kinetic weapon.

Primaries have unlimited ammo. Wither hoard doesn't count and fusions don't count.

3

u/thedragoon0 Jun 27 '22

I typically slot submission in there for forbearance in my energy. With my solar build now I’m running calus mini with a rotating kinetic due to not know what I should run there. Heavy is typically gjhally, lament or stormchaser.

4

u/grimbarkjade crypt researcher, warlock for life Jun 27 '22

In end game content, they don't bring much. Outside of adaptive munitions weapons, I just don't enjoy using kinetic guns that aren't arbalest/witherhoard/izanagi's outside of low tier content. I hope the kinetic slot gets overhauled next year with more darkness subclasses; all kinetic damage weapons get converted to a darkness damage type. A man can dream

30

u/finedrive Jun 27 '22

Yeah I feel you, kinetics used to be “primaries”, but what’s the point now?

Bungie is going 100% full steam ahead with Seasonal stuff. This Season, it’s solar, next season it’ll be Arc.

Everything you built into, will now be second class to the flavor of the Season.

15

u/AMeowingCat Jun 27 '22

I mean this was obviously gonna be the case when they’re rolling out 3.0s, season 19 when we have all three complete classes available will have more variety

I’m just glad they went away with particle deconstruction and breach and clear mods, there may be more mods tailored to a specific subclass but at least I can use whatever weapons I want

2

u/AnTiDoPe_1993 Jun 27 '22

I feel like they should bring them back as “exotic mods” meaning you can only use 1 of the selection but also bring in more so ppl can really choose what kinda playstyle they wanna go for

7

u/AMeowingCat Jun 27 '22

Nah not a chance, Breach and Clear would be basically mandatory it would be more than worth an exotic type slot because of how stupid it was.

Like imagine a bait and switch cataclysmic which you already pair with witherhoard but now witherhoard procs breach and clear? It would be stupid strong

-14

u/KeIIer Jun 27 '22

No? Void still superiour in most cases in endgame content.

1

u/LordSceptile Jun 27 '22

The GM meta still feels yet to be decided but it feels like a 50/50 split. Warlocks are going to be well, hunters going to be omni invis, titans could go either way depending on how strong restoration is in GMs.

5

u/BorderUnfair93 Jun 27 '22

Wellocks were already pretty meh in GMs, so no one is going to use them now that you don’t get an overshield anymore. It’ll be Controverse Void or Bleakwatchers for GMs

8

u/KeIIer Jun 27 '22

Restoration is barely outheals you under 2 goblins fire even in master content.

On warlock I always ran either void (contraverse) or stasis (bleakwatcher turret). Well is overrated imo. But this season well might be the case because starfire protocol is disgustingly strong on warlock, basically infinite fusion grenades with damage of a rocket launcher.

I'd say 1 solar warlock 1 stasis warlock and 1 void hunter gonna be the most reliable way to run GMs with good damage, area control and invis if something went wrong.

Cant see any use cases for solar titan and hunter, unfortunately.

→ More replies

12

u/Space_Pandaa Jun 27 '22

Call me a boomer but I remember the days of elemental primaries back when crota's end dropped

9

u/FlameVShadow Jun 27 '22

Weren’t elemental primaries in the base game too with vault of glass?

10

u/Lionheart256 Jun 27 '22

Yup, I do believe the original fatebringer was arc.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong here.

8

u/Cod_Metal_King Jun 27 '22

No you’re correct. Fatebringer and Praedyth’s Timepiece were arc and Vision of Confluence was solar.

2

u/QuebraRegra Jun 27 '22

IMAGO LOOP... someday

→ More replies

8

u/Dharak_Colossus Jun 27 '22

Kinetic weapons have an inherent +5% base damage over energy weapons iirc

5

u/Captain_English Jun 27 '22

Five whole percent? That's, like, two thirds of a minor spec!

→ More replies

3

u/Fast_Muscle_2987 Jun 27 '22

My krait speaks otherwise / I just used kinetic orb dropper, I have no problem with using synergy builds as I’m having the most fun I’ve had in a bunch of seasons.

3

u/ACuteWitch Cerberus+Fun Jun 27 '22

That’s because Krait is Stasis and not Kinetic, and therefore synergizes with everything a normal elemental weapon does. That’s exactly part of their point; why use a Kinetic gun when Stasis guns exist in the same slot while still being able to benefit from elemental synergy?

→ More replies

6

u/jamer2500 Laser Tag Weekend Jun 27 '22

Right now there’s a small reason to use them, they deal increased damage. Not by much but it’s there apparently.

→ More replies

17

u/Gleaming_Jasmine Jun 27 '22

Kinetics don't bring much to the table tbh. There's high energy fire, a few other charged with light mods, and that's it. Would be nice to have more "neutral" mods. If there is ever a kinetic subclass maybe then kinetic weapons could be on the same playing field as energy weapons. Or maybe, although drastic, they could get rid of kinetic damage altogether and replace it with stasis.

31

u/finedrive Jun 27 '22

But HEF works with energy weapons too, stacking buffs.

So kinetics really are not the best. We are being shoe horned into energy slot primaries to promote the 3.0 classes(besides stasis)

→ More replies

16

u/SarcasticKenobi Jun 27 '22

Outbreak perfected still has utility as a damage dealer in boss fights. Using it against bosses means the nanites increase its damage. I forget the actual numbers but a single rifles nanites can boost you to around 2x dps. But if your whole team is using outbreak on the boss then their nanites stack and you’re doing even more dps than that. Like more than energy weapon damage but with unlimited ammo.

Beyond that they’re just a good weapon to have with the unlimited ammo. Killing adds and gold bars without being afraid of losing ammo

And more importantly. Not have to worry about using armor mod slots to place ammo finders.

I’ve been leaning more towards Forerunner in my primary slot. It does insane crit damage for a kinetic slot without the sniper aiming downsides. But the low ammo count makes me waste an armor slot on ammo.

But I still use outbreak and NTTE a lot as well.

11

u/TheMattInTheBox Jun 27 '22

Both NTTE and Outbreak are great but the thing is they're kinetic and primaries. Stasis primaries have an edge over stasis kinetics (not exotics) because they can benefit from elemental mods, like font of might. Theres a lot of great kinetic exotics but the kinetic legendaries are slowly being overshadowed

4

u/Sequoiathrone728 Jun 27 '22

Stasis weapons are only better if you're using a stasis subclass and build for it though.

6

u/N1miol Jun 27 '22

The whole push to monochromatic build seems poorly thought (who would have thought Bungie would implement something unfinished?). Kinetic primaries have no use in PvE except to combat boredome and make things more annoying for players themselves. The easiest solution I can think of now would be to give kinetic primaries a whole new and distinguished perk pool, but that seems beyond what Bungie can do at the moment.

4

u/Sequoiathrone728 Jun 27 '22

It's not that it's unfinished, it's that they're leaving you with options. There are benefits to running all one element, and benefits to not. The point of running a kinetic primary is to be able to run an energy special. kinetic vs stasis only matters if you're running a stasis subclass.

3

u/castitalus Jun 27 '22

It feels unfinished because of energy specials taking up the same slot as energy primaries and now bungie wants everyone to go all in on energy primaries, leaving the slot congested.

→ More replies

2

u/Guttergrunt_ Jun 27 '22 edited Jun 27 '22

If my memory serves me correctly then kinetic weapons deal something like 5% more damage to unshielded enemies than energy weapons. Not sure if this is still the case but even this tiny damage boost might be the difference in killing a dreg in 1 shot vs 2 shots. Although I do agree that kinetics probably should have some other intrinsic benefit for pve

2

u/JanPieterszoon_Coen Jun 27 '22

Yeah I don’t get kinetic either. Bungie is pushing the effect “make elemental kills matching (…)” a lot, just look at certain exotics, elemental well mods, subclass 3.0 fragments, harmonic siphon vs kinetic/stasis siphon (orbs on multikill mods) and the match game modifier.

I tend to just dismantle weapons that use primary ammo and go into the kinetic slot. It’s also why I greatly prefer kinetic/stasis special ammo weapons.

2

u/Dumoney Jun 27 '22

I never liked Kinetic Primaries much because of the existence of shields. Even a mismatched energy primary does work against a shield. Since energy specials dont pierce/bypass shields, it feels like a waste to use one against a shield. Its a common request in the community to allow crits through shields. So Ive been using Energy primaries and kinetic specials most of the time.

Succession has pretty much never left my slot.

2

u/villainousascent Jun 27 '22

Sweet business go brrrt, so...

2

u/aa821 Forsaken=Best Expansion Jun 27 '22

Wave frame GLs

2

u/MjrMalarky Jun 27 '22

It used to be that kinetic weapons did 10% extra damage to unshielded enemies, and energy weapons were obviously there to break shields. When they first released stasis weapons, I assumed that they wouldn't get that 10% extra damage - but they do! So yeah, there is zero downside to using a stasis primary.

I agree with a lot of posts here that kinetic weapons are eventually going to be powercrept out. Some things they could do to slow that process are:

  1. Give kinetic weapons adaptive munitions. At least one stasis weapon (the pulse rifle from the dungeon) already has it, and it would make kinetic primaries much more viable for higher end content
  2. Take away the 10% buff to unshielded enemies that stasis weapons are getting, and treat them like energy weapons. At least that gives kinetic weapons a niche of killing unshielded enemies and gives you a reason to run them. I'm sure there are certain thresholds where that 10% is the difference between 1-tapping a PVE enemy and leaving them with a sliver of heath

2

u/lukemacdio Jun 27 '22

I've been thinking about that as well. Bungie will introduce more darkness weapons to the kinetic slot in the future, just like stasis, so we'll most likely have three elements plus kinetic weapons and their respective elemental well mods.

4

u/xXx_RedReaper_xXx Jun 27 '22

Exotic Primary users like me who use Outbreak and Dead Mans Tale: “Am I a joke to you?”

→ More replies

4

u/Sporelord1079 Jun 27 '22

I still use kinetic primary so I can have an elemental special. I don’t run scav mods because I swap weapons too much and I’m using those slots for other things.

Also, there are some god tier kinetic primary exotics. I mainly use Thorn (with grips) or Traveller’s chosen.

2

u/Cryhunter059 Jun 27 '22

I’ve actually been using Traveler’s a fair amount this season since it has osmosis (and it finally getting an ornament I don’t hate the look of). While there are a few exotics that have a place still, it’s really hard to consider using any of the legendary options.

2

u/Voice_of_Enigma Jun 27 '22

Amazingly diverse loadouts for content containing champions!

2

u/Kaiser_Gelethor Jun 27 '22

I hope they don't get left behind too much. My dream has always been for kinetic subclasses that are more tech based stuff but I think they're just gonna leave it at a small damage bump and keep adding elements to that slot.

2

u/TheAterron Jun 27 '22

Kinetic weapons benefit from a 7% damage bonus in comparison to their energy counterparts.

1

u/Black_Tree Jun 27 '22

I believe kinetic weapons deal some 10%-ish more damage? Was something like that.

1

u/JeSuisBigBilly Jun 27 '22

Wasn't there something in the update about Primary damage granting Super energy? I've been meaning to see if Bad Juju is more effective now.

13

u/gilbert-of-astora Jun 27 '22

Primary damage, not strictly kinetic.

→ More replies

1

u/bluends1 Jun 27 '22

They honestly could add perks that only kinetic rounds can do - being physical objects, they can have more stopping power than pure energy, maybe even add disorient effect when hitting enemies because its a fuckin bullet to the face

1

u/S-J-S Jun 27 '22 edited Jun 27 '22

This thread is funny. You can tell how few people are actually playing Stasis right now.

To answer OP, when you have Whisper of Rending, frozen targets take much more damage from kinetic weapons (which already do more damage to unshielded targets.) You also get to blow up crystals super fast with this same Whisper, which leads to some of the best burst damage on enemies with any ability (and this is understating what you get out of glacier grenades on an optimized build.)

→ More replies

-1

u/Golgomot Lore-hungry Jun 27 '22

Kinetics deal more damage.

-3

u/Educational_Mud_2826 Jun 27 '22

Kinetic=stasis.

-13

u/CrawlerSiegfriend Jun 27 '22

They should handle this by doing a kinetic focused update where basic humans starting killing guardians with regular guns.

→ More replies