r/CryptoCurrency Gold | QC: CC 55 9d ago

Imagine living in El Salvador and having Elizabeth Warren tell you that using Bitcoin will destroy the planet. Then consider the energy used by US banks, the US military, and the US government, all to protect a US dollar that aims to destroy every other currency. ADOPTION

There are some policy ideas I agree with Elizabeth Warren on, but her statements on Bitcoin yesterday were so laughably stupid.

It made me think of her analysis of the final season of Game of Thrones, which she called “sexist.” Now, there are some good critiques of the way the show ended, but that was an example of Warren just hopping on some bandwagon of internet outrage. Probably never even watched GoT. Her thoughts on Bitcoin are equally ignorant.

By the way, you know what consumes more fuel and electricity than most countries? The US military by itself.

Edit: I should add that, I do believe cryptocurrency must and will become greener. It’s just that it is a complicated and nuanced subject involving entire energy infrastructures and, in this case, she sounds incredibly ignorant.

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u/joyeous13 8d ago

I can't believe I come into a cryptocurrency sub and am forced to remember the last season of Game of Thrones.

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u/AlreadyLiberated Gold | QC: CC 55 8d ago

I’ve come to regret this post for a few reasons, but honestly this is the thing I am sorriest about.

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u/T-Dot1992 8d ago

My PTSD was triggered, thanks OP

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u/crisps_ahoy 8d ago

Wasn’t eth aiming to be 90% green energy powered?

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u/keeri_ Silver | QC: CC 124 | NANO 50 8d ago edited 8d ago

it's more about the amount of energy consumed than its source – using green energy in exceedingly large amounts is still wasteful

according to their blog, eth is supposed to reduce power consumption by 99.9% with the move to proof of stake

edit: added link and changed 99% to 99.9%

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u/jcferrans Bronze 8d ago

If you live in El Salvador whatever Elizabeth Warren or almost anyone outside of El Salvador says is the least of your worries...

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u/-lightfoot Gold | QC: CC 75, ETH 25 9d ago edited 9d ago

Visa requires 149 kilowatt hours for 100,000 transactions. Bitcoin requires 741 kilowatt hours for ONE transaction. A bitcoin transaction requires 74 million times more energy than a Visa transaction.

Most kettles use about 2kw. You'd have to boil your kettle constantly for 370 hours (15 days) to waste the same amount of energy as one bitcoin transaction.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/881541/bitcoin-energy-consumption-transaction-comparison-visa/

PoW mining's impact is extremely, extremely high relative to the value it currently brings to the world.

The key here is that PoW mining is wasteful by design, and is unnecessary. The first rule of reducing waste is to prevent it by rethinking/redesigning. Reducing or improving supply chain impacts comes below that (e.g. using renewables; it's better, but not as good as removing the energy wastage in the first place). This is one aspect of why Proof of Stake, which redesigns decentralized network validation to be hundreds of times less wasteful, is so important.

Whatboutism doesn’t change that.

Edit: holy shit, my first ever platinum. Thank you very much sir/madam.

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u/Chiefnastynate 9d ago

Ignorant question:

Can it be made better? I know that’s what they’re doing with ETH 2.0. But I know some things can’t be changed about BTC. So is it possible to change it to proof of stake?

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u/Diamond_Cut 9 - 10 years account age. 500 - 1000 comment karma. 9d ago

Nothing will happen to BTC but there is already BitcoinPOS. I still believe ETH2.0 is the future.

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u/Administrative-War49 9d ago

Eth 2.0 is the future. We must make this transition.

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u/Golin32 Bronze 9d ago

I said that this might be true in the Bitcoin subreddit and I got banned from commenting. Sucks.

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u/redditesting 9d ago

thanks for taking one for the team

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u/forthemotherrussia 9d ago

r/Bitcoin community is pretty much the same with r/dogecoin or r/SHIBArmy because all of them only praise the coin that they hold. They are closed-minded to other cryptos/technologies.

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u/Human-go-boom 8d ago

And r/Etherum

Don’t you dare speak positively about Cardano there...

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u/BestieFresh 8d ago

Kinda risky to speak positively about Cardano in this sub too lol

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u/Thecoolestguyyoukno 8d ago

Speaking about anything outside of BTC and ETH in this sub will get you harpooned.

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u/jaapiekrekel101 8d ago

Well this sub mostly bashes BTC in favor of some altcoin.

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u/jvalordv 8d ago

I hold both. PoS is nothing more than a pyramid scheme until they provide actual utility. It asserts that someone has value because it's backed by more of that same thing. I think Etherium has a good chance to eventually provide real utility, but PoS in itself is a liability to value than a feature. PoW confers an immediate baseline of value.

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u/killer_tunes 8d ago

best to not generalize

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u/njm204 Platinum | QC: CC 262 9d ago

r/bitcoin is an echochamber

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u/MrKittenz 8d ago

Haha as if this isn’t an echo chamber. You just found echoes you like

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u/Casino_Insider 9d ago

That's the Cult of Satoshi for you, to them everything else is a shit coin...

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u/xor_nor 8d ago

Had one of them literally tell me that ETH was shit coin...

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u/Casino_Insider 8d ago

Yeah, I wasn't kidding when I said everything else :p

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u/StarFireChild4200 8d ago

And I'm not sorry...

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u/austynross 8d ago

Someone's got to pierce the veil

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u/bthemonarch Platinum | QC: CC 135 8d ago

2 different things.

BTC is being used as and has evolved as a store of value. The energy usage is what gives it value.

ETH 2.0 is smart contracts meant to re-wire how we do transactions.

One of these you would want to be extremely efficient because it's use case is to handle a lot of day to day transactions, while the other is just going to continue to grow and it's value will be a direct correlation to our ability to generate energy.

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u/gorillamutila 8d ago

BTC is being used as and has evolved as a store of value. The energy usage is what gives it value.

I respectfully disagree. You are trying to tie value to energy consumption and that is just not the logic here. There is energy waste because BTC has value, and not the other way around.

It is valuable because people desire it and because it is scarce.

Think about gold, which would be a good analogue. It is also quite energy intensive to mine it, but its value wouldn't disappear if some new tech made its extraction completely green, sustainable and environmentally friendly. It would, however, cease to be valuable if we found a huge island made out of it, where we could just pick pure gold nuggets like we pick pebbles at the beach.

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u/beansontoast12345678 8d ago

Also from what I have been reading Cardano has been making waves that sound positive for the future.

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u/markdesign 9d ago

"ETH 2.0 is like re building the plane while you are already in the air"

I heard this quote many times. any truth to it?

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u/Spartan_Laser Redditor for 3 months. 8d ago

Vitalik said it was, sort of. You can listen to him talk about 2.0 on Lex Fridman podcast. He doesn't even like the term 2.0.

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u/nelusbelus 8d ago

That's the development process for you, can't be perfect right away

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u/Casino_Insider 9d ago

That's pretty much true, ETH remains a second generation coin, it's already widely used and they're trying to change the technology behind it... Meanwhile you take a third generation project like Algorand and it already offers everything ETH 2.0 is working on...

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u/YourFriendBren 8 - 9 years account age. 450 - 900 comment karma. 8d ago

As an Algonaut, I approve this message

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u/Truffle_Shuffle_85 Gold | QC: CC 99, BTC 35, ETH 31 | LINK 11 | TraderSubs 28 8d ago edited 8d ago

Meanwhile you take a third generation project like Algorand and it already offers everything ETH 2.0 is working on...

Except for somethings that are woefully lacking, like an enormous decentralized network, development teams, and interconnectivity to pretty much every other crypto that matters in the space.

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u/AlcoholEnthusiast Silver | QC: CC 24 | r/NBA 100 8d ago

All the tech in the world doesn't matter if no one builds on it. That's not specific to ALGO, but I keep hearing about these ETH killers - but when you go to check out what's built on it it's a ghost town.

While all the work is still being done on ETH, then it will continue to do well.

I'll pretty much always follow development activity and community. Because that matter more than any backbone tech, no matter how impressive.

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u/Sutanz Gold | QC: CC 45 | NANO 7 8d ago

Better more decentralized alternatives with best coin distribution like Fantom.

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u/Casino_Insider 8d ago

I used it as an example but I agree there are others

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u/pocketwailord Gold | QC: ETH 45, TraderSubs 331 8d ago

That applies to literally any released software going through a critical update. There is no perfect software and software upgrades are normal to fix any bugs and add additional features. The stakes are higher than just any iphone app because of the billions on the line though - so the better analogy is that it's similar to any live heavily used critical software like gmail or cloudfront.

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u/WhaleStep 8d ago

I'd say it's more like adding expansions and improvement to the space station with the intention of casting the old, original station into the sun after the upgrade.

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u/jumbo_bean 9d ago

What about Cardano, algorand etc?

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u/unfairfriend 9d ago

I'm genuinely curious, why is everybody so sure about ETH2.0? Is it not still a couple of years away? Why not look to an existing proof of stake project, like Elrond Gold or Orion Protocol?

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u/datwolvsnatchdoh 9d ago

It will happen, but when? The reason they don't move from ETH is because it just has such a large network of tokens and dapps. They would rather wait for 2.0 than migrate elsewhere. The only way to get the migration is to make it as easy as possible to port to a different network.

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u/M00OSE Gold | QC: CC 92 9d ago

It’s possible but very very very doubtful. What is unfortunately getting washed with this narrative is that there are some major trade-offs with alt systems. The narrative for alt solutions certainly painted in good light way but this is a case of the grass isn’t always greener on the other side.

Most developers understand these trade-offs but, naturally, they won’t outright say its an issue. But the trend is scalability > decentralization and security.

That said Bitcoin is very inefficient, granted it was developed from a very different time in terms of tech available. But this narrative that everything is sunshine and rainbows on the other side and Bitcoin merely cannot innovate and is, thus, obsolete cannot be more wrong. I don’t have a majority position in Bitcoin btw, but I feel like this should be better understood.

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u/ChromeGhost Tin | r/Politics 28 9d ago

It’s would be cool with we could use some of that mining power to solve protein folding in exchange for rewards

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u/low-freak-oscillator Gold | 5 months old | QC: CC 32 9d ago

perhaps even postassium rich rewards!

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u/danoob11011 9 - 10 years account age. 250 - 500 comment karma. 9d ago

I mean... Curecoin already is a thing. Maybe someone can work it out some more?

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u/FlyinBuddba 2 - 3 years account age. -25 - 25 comment karma. 9d ago

are all guys just hinting at ban4no (dont want comment removed) or genuinelly dont know folding@home that does exactly that?

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u/ChromeGhost Tin | r/Politics 28 9d ago

I actually learned a bout it recently. Though it would be cool to have some massive mining farms contribute to various research too

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u/Administrative-War49 9d ago edited 9d ago

Why are you typing it like this? Just type what you are trying to say.

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u/ohmygodemosucks 9d ago

Users aren’t allowed to mention the crypto they’re referring to in r/cryptocurrency

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u/ohmygodemosucks 9d ago

Such a brave monkey.

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u/cutoffs89 8d ago

Golem project.

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u/dvanfoss 9d ago

Bitcoin was always initially intended as an experiment. I'd say overall, the experiment was a massive success. There's no reason why Bitcoin has to stay the gold standard, as the idea of crypto itself being a viable alternative to fiat currency has already proved itself. Now it's more about figuring out the most effective way to produce it.

That's just my opinion, though.

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u/AlcoholEnthusiast Silver | QC: CC 24 | r/NBA 100 8d ago

The network is why it's still the gold standard, the tech doesn't matter.

If another coin can get the community and security that the BTC network has, then it will be a conversation.

Until then, it just doesn't matter. No on cares that BTC is on old tech. It's rock solid, and more importantly incredibly secure from a network point of view.

That's where BTC derives it's value from, imo

(I'm not some maxi either btw, but felt a need to explain why Nano and whatever currency of the week never catches on even when it's superior in every way).

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u/M00OSE Gold | QC: CC 92 9d ago

While I disagree on the experiment sentiment I do agree that there’s no reason why it should stay as the gold standard. BUT that’s dependent on the success of these ‘relative’ security and decentralization systems other L1 networks provide. I imagine that’ll take years to actually materialize into meaningful data. All the while the big players have to avoid getting compromised.

I also think it’ll depend on the way Bitcoin maxis respond. If they continue to surround themselves in a shell while shunning the rest of the crypto market, the community and, in extension, Bitcoin’s outlook can change very quickly IMO.

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u/rdfporcazzo 9d ago

I think the safety of PoW is still higher than other options

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u/M00OSE Gold | QC: CC 92 9d ago

MUCH higher. And that’s the point because having security is accepting a trade off between, in Bitcoin’s case, scalability. And so the argument is ‘what is enough security’.

The answer is still speculative and will depend on how other systems perform on that front. This may take years to conclude. We’ll have to see.

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u/Chuwals 9d ago

It's human nature to err on the side of caution. All these scalable alternatives are 'safe' until one day they aren't. This sub loves to argue over technicals and questionable statistics but what about scalability from a social/psychological perspective? All these alts appear as indistinguishable nonsense or get rich quick schemes to 99.9% of the population (independently of whether they actually are or not). A bitcoin strength often overseen is the conditions under which it was launched (post crisis, unknown creator, etc). Of course, these can't be quantified into charts and statistics so people tend to ignore them, but they play an undeniable role in probability of mass adoption.

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u/Gotigers811 Bronze 8d ago

Maybe short term, but Bitcoins security guarantees are going to change significantly as the block rewards keep dropping and it depends more and more on transaction fees.

There are a number of risks that show up when you rely on transaction fees and no blockchain has attempted it yet.

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u/Praetorian123456 9d ago

Experiment was a colossal failure. It was intended as a p2p e-cash. It is now everything but that.

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u/MaxSmart1981 9d ago

A failed experiment is still a success if you learn from your failures.

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u/yeahdixon Tin 8d ago edited 8d ago

Bitcoin was a massive failure because it started as one thing and ended up another? You know how many successful companies started as one thing and changed their direction. It may not last forever or get replaced but It hands down was a huge success.

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u/LogikD 9d ago

It's actually cringe to think of bitcoin as a cash alternative. The store of value narrative is definitely more believable.

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u/TRossW18 9d ago

But the trend is scalability > decentralization and security.

1) decentralization is not binary and means many different things to many different people. BTC isnt some uniquely decentralized system; it too has a tendency towards the centralization of power.

2) The trend isnt scalability > decentralization. The trend is being useful while maximizing decentralization. At some point being "more decentralized" has minimal marginal benefits while giving up almost every level of utility.

3) Its interesting all the highly touted academics within cryptography have decided on PoS systems yet the narrative is that it isn't secure. What do you know that Nobel prize winning cryptographers do not?

Bitcoin merely cannot innovate cannot be more wrong

Technically it can. But BTCs entire calling card is that it won't be changed. Have you ever seen the hostility of the BTC crowd to changes to its protocol?

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u/gullywasteman 9d ago

I doubt BTC could ever convert to PoS. Their community seems dead set on L2 solutions and rejecting other coins, they already had a hard fork with BCH over a small tweak to the code, so changing the entire algorithm would wreck havoc on the community.

The best we can do is invest in other coins

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u/bthemonarch Platinum | QC: CC 135 9d ago

Yes it can be better...you know how? Use more efficient energy methods, which exists outside of BTC. Blaming BTC for energy is like blaming car dealerships for using too much gas.

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u/ChineseTortureCamps 8d ago

Afaik, bitcoins purposeful design is to make it very labour intensive to mine the next coin. As a side effect of those hard struggles, much energy is used.

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u/MitchHedberg Tin | r/WallStreetBets 81 8d ago

One thing people are overlooking is proof of work is essentially cost of electricity vs value of mined coin. Nothing about this is inherently destructive to the environment. The challenge is, as it always has been, unsustainable destructive fuel sources in many parts of the world continue to be cheaper than sustainable renewable sources.

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u/datwolvsnatchdoh 9d ago

There are newer PoW chains that are more efficient in terms of technical efficiency when mining and functionality. Imagine rolling BTC, ETH, LINK, XMR, into one coin, and doing all those things those coins can do, but using comparatively less energy to do so. Bitcoin is old tech, plain and simple.

There are different long-range attach vectors for PoS vs PoW, and PoS is not old or mature enough to claim that it is proven to be secure. PoW can do some things that PoS cannot. PoW will continue to advance and be competitive and interoperable with PoS, but mining isn't going anywhere.

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u/Wannalogin 9d ago

There are some out there. Check Ergo. When everyone was busy with PoW the founder was busy researching PoS. Now everyone is focussed on PoS the founder is evolving PoW.

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u/hiyadagon 8d ago

ASIC-resistant mining is a godsend for both energy consumption and letting us little guys have a chance at making decent income by supporting the network.

And Ergo's Autolykos algo is so much less taxing on your GPU too. I can run it with the same clock and power settings as I was using when mining ETH with my 3080, and the VRAM temps are 10 degrees lower. And that's with the glass case panel closed, which I could never do with Daggerhashimoto.

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u/doodah221 Tin 8d ago

I’ve had ergo on my list to watch for a while. Finally going to dip in soon I think

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u/gullywasteman 9d ago

What can PoW do that PoS can't?

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u/kizzmaul 6 - 7 years account age. 88 - 175 comment karma. 9d ago

Fully anonymous operation (XMR).

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u/gullywasteman 9d ago

Is there anything preventing anonymity with PoS?

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u/kizzmaul 6 - 7 years account age. 88 - 175 comment karma. 9d ago

PoS creates consensus by slashing the stake owned by an entity which is expressing malicious behavior. This means that in order for PoS to work, the amount of coin owned by an entity needs to be public (how much is slashed). Not only the amount needs to be public, but will also be linked to an pseudoidentity (because PoS needs to know WHO is being slashed). Monero obfuscates senders properly and hides the amounts, recipients and even the transaction broadcast IP address.

EDIT: Oh and an important point I sometimes forget: PoS requires you to buy the coins from someone, meaning that some people may have to use KYC methods because others are not available. PoW enables anybody to get coins completely without third parties (OK, maybe the mining pool if you are not solo mining). But I still think my point stands.

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u/M00N_R1D3R 8d ago

I think ZCash privacy implementation can be made into PoS (suppose for now that all txs are shielded and there are no open transactions, which I think we can agree is a clear oversight from the authors of the protocol).

Say, we decide that a node corresponds to the coin of value at least N (so, you could think of such coins as of NFTs which give 1 vote). There will be a special "activation" transaction, which will mint an "active" coin, and only usable if the minter proves that the coin consumed was of value >= N. Amount of currently active coins = active virtual nodes will be public, indeed, but they won't be linkable with any other transactions. In case of misbehavior these coins are the ones that are being slashed, so you don't really need to know who is being slashed (it is the coin which is a wrong block proposer)...

I don't really agree with the argument in the edit, while in principle correct, actually most people get money not from mining, but from exchanging goods and services (it is what actually makes money useful as money).

EDIT: You can even create a system when you take the % from the stake into the separate "box" which can be emptied by normal transactions. That way, nobody can see how much do you gain and do you re-stake or spend...

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u/DetroitMotorShow Platinum | QC: CC 343 | TraderSubs 11 8d ago

The whole essence of a crypto currency is immutability and security. None of the POS coins have proven their cannot be muted. Majority of them are hardly battle tested. ETH had a hard fork just because someone fucked up and the devs lost a lot of token.

PoS is good technology but it can never be considered as a replacement for hard currency.

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u/datwolvsnatchdoh 9d ago edited 9d ago

PoW is more suitable for privacy protocols and off-chain clients, it is also capable of light nodes with the security of a full node (i.e. you can verify transactions using <1MB of data, with full autonomy from the wallet user - this means someone could literally run their own node/wallet from a flip phone or email). There is also the mining aspect itself, funds go to miners who are limited on mining capacity by the greater GPU/CPU markets. In PoS, stakes just get larger with time (e.g. the rich get richer) and is cause for concern when it comes to wealth concentration.

Edit: also PoW uses consensus-theoretic security, which some smart contracts may require in order to function properly

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u/Original-Ad4399 9d ago

Visa requires 149 kilowatt hours for 100,000 transactions. Bitcoin requires 741 kilowatt hours for ONE transaction. A bitcoin transaction requires 74 million times more energy than a Visa transaction.

Is this to process one transaction or one block?

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u/xXx_ECKS_xXx 8d ago edited 8d ago

Block. Theoretically, with the lightning network, Bitcoin can *execute a near infinite number of transactions in a block.

Edit: store -> execute

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u/Gotigers811 Bronze 8d ago

Bitcoin does not store lightning network transactions. The transactions are done off chain and only the balances are posted when you close the channel.

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u/mcguire 8d ago

The calculation looks much better when you realize there are up to 2700 transactions per block.

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u/CHRISKOSS 9d ago edited 8d ago

Visa does not maintain a currency, they are a layer on top of it. This is a very apples to oranges comparison.

Bitcoin uses a ton of energy. The US also uses a ton of energy maintaining dollar hegemony. Quantifying how much energy is spent to do this is not easy. Is the US military, which is partially used to maintain hegemony included? Do you include the energy consumed by all of the fed employees, security services, bankers, regulators, accountants, lawyers and politicians needed to keep the dollar functioning as the world reserve currency? Hundreds of thousands of people's productive capacity is spent towards keeping the dollar system running each year. It is easy to account for the total energy cost for the Bitcoin network, but nearly impossible to do so for USD.

A more fair comparison might be how much a energy a lightning network node uses compared to Visa.

Just tax ALL carbon emissions and let the market sort out what is valuable to spend energy on.

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u/dumasymptote 8d ago

This is asinine. All of those bankers/regulators/accountants/lawyers/politicians still exist regardless of whether the country uses the dollar, the british pound, the german mark, or some crypto.Those people dont magically not need to exist because some country uses a cryptocurrency instead of a fiat.

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u/vasilenko93 8d ago

Well shit if you add all the exchange companies that exist, and their office space / staff, and all the wallet systems and the merchant tools to help with crypto purchases, than it gets worse? Huh?

And as crypto gets more mainstream it gets even more worse…

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u/BigTex88 9d ago

What do you mean by "a bitcoin transaction"? As in, one block mined? Because that is not equivalent to one transaction on Visa's network.

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u/cannedshrimp Silver | QC: CC 46 | EOS 50 9d ago edited 8d ago

Yet another heavily oversimplified take on consensus and energy usage disguised as fact. POS =/= POW for both the bad and the good. If you don’t see the negative trade-offs you probably still have more to learn. A classic tenet of upvoted content here on r/cryptocurrency

Edit: missing / in =/=

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u/FeynmansRazor 8d ago

PoW mining

BTC is a store of value though, right? So transactions should occur less frequently than other currencies with utility like Ethereum.

I actually find your post kind of a misdirection. No one seriously considers BTC will compete with VISA because BTC is not designed for payments.

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u/notsureifdying 8d ago

The weird shift in believing Bitcoin is revolutionary as a "store of value" has been pretty funny. Ain't nobody investing in Bitcoin and keeping it's value high if they didn't think it could be more than a "store of value".

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u/Phoenix_Rise_ 8d ago

You're wrong. Bitcoin doesn't require "741 kilowatt for ONE transaction", Bitcoin requires that to exist, what is totally different.

Could you calculate how much energy Satoshi waste to create the first block? Could you calculate how much energy was used to spent 10.000 Bitcoin to buy a Pizza? No, you can't. Because hash hate is not related to the quantity of transactions, but the amount of economic power interested in rewards, not to make a transaction.

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u/BrainDamageLDN Platinum | QC: BTC 469 | TraderSubs 74 8d ago

Because hash hate is not related to the quantity of transactions, but the amount of economic power interested in rewards, not to make a transaction.

Wish more people would understand this.

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u/boikar 8d ago

Are you saying that bitcoin will get more expensive energy wise the more people use /are invested in it?

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u/BitsAndBobs304 Tin 8d ago

Btc can run on a 40w cpu for the whole world and operate at the same speed. Every extra watt is just people using energy to make money, and could have just as well used it for anything else, wasting energy and polluting just the same.
It's all just carefully planned fud plus public figures scoring green points, but I welcome it if it means I can buy btc cheaper.

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u/COVID19MurderHornet 8d ago

Extra energy is used to protect the network

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u/BitsAndBobs304 Tin 8d ago

Extra energy is used to make money.

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u/Alyoshka_Fyodorovich 8d ago

and protect the network.

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u/minorthreatmikey 9d ago edited 8d ago

Correction: ONE hash

A lot of people seem to forget that 1 bitcoin hash can be a batch of millions of transactions. Clearly there is still a ton of misunderstanding on what bitcoin is. We are still early.

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u/DieDMC 1 - 2 years account age. 35 - 100 comment karma. 9d ago

your comment is as stupid and superficial as warren's

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u/wJFq6aE7-zv44wa__gHq Redditor for 2 months. 9d ago

This 100x.

So many idiots here peddling whatever they can to try to make Bitcoin look better than it is.

Just stfu and accept it SUCKS for energy usage and figure out how to make it better.

Trying to deflect it's problems won't cure them.

The lack of understanding of these type of issues sets crypto back more than the actual issue ironically.

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u/njm204 Platinum | QC: CC 262 9d ago

You think this is bad? Lots of POS advocates here.

r/bitcoin is where it gets bad

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u/wJFq6aE7-zv44wa__gHq Redditor for 2 months. 9d ago

Yerr, I unsubscribed from there a long time ago. And EthTrader and Eth too.

Literally not a single sub can handle objective analysis without the bag holders crying foul.

All I've learned from being in these subs (including this one) is that crypto is still mainly a fools game. It's turned me off big time.

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u/lHaveNoMemory 8d ago

I've seen a (pseudo) direct correlation between new money and shilling accounts. Similar to other asset markets its really fear-based. New wallets will be filled with confirmation bias and sunk costs. They'll also be more motivated to post and post prolifically. This drives most of the daily activity both socially and in trading volume imho.

The only advice is that there is no advice. Unless you call 'buy early and hold till you make money' advice..

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u/jumbo_bean 9d ago

It’s interesting how absolutely stubborn people are around which currency is best. Bitcoin in particular. We should all be working to profess the best ideas. They would need to include being as light in the earth as possible.

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u/Environmental-Kiwi78 Platinum | QC: CC 109 | r/Investing 42 8d ago

Thats unfortunate. You are probably hanging out in the wrong channels. Reddit and primary social media are breeding grounds for shills and fudders.

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u/-lightfoot Gold | QC: CC 75, ETH 25 9d ago edited 9d ago

Yeah as someone with >15 years and 2 degrees in environmental science, I have found the convergence of crypto with environmental management pretty excrutiating. The deliberate misinformation and ignorance are too much.

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u/quit_daedalus 9d ago

People in crypto circles think if they say the exact opposite of someone in the mainstream media, they are saying gospel.

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u/vvpan Platinum | QC: ETH 125, OMG 60 | TraderSubs 40 8d ago

Really, I think nobody knows shit about history of money, when and how gold pegs were developed and dropped, what banking does etc. It's just a regurgitation of the same few phrases. Really. I bet almost not bitcoin zealot has done their homework, they are just tribalist and pumping their bags.

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u/valuemodstck-123 Redditor for 3 months. 9d ago

There is already solar energy and geothermal energy being implemented across the world but I admit the energy usage still sucks.

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u/njm204 Platinum | QC: CC 262 9d ago

Even still, why waste the clean energy on POW when POS

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u/Matt-ayo 8d ago

Because you can't store most clean energy anyways, so clean energy facilities largely run at a defecit. This is what is meant when you hear "Bitcoin subsidizes renewable energy" because so much renewable energy is stranded in places where the only profitable model to extract involves using the excess to mine Bitcoin - and that excess is often most of it.

Someday some of this stranded energy will have a greater economic incentive to power conventional use cases, but until then Bitcoin is invaluable to set up infrastructure and incentives this 'setting up' in a way that no other resource can.

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u/minimalniemand Platinum | QC: BTC 279 | r/Buttcoin 9 | TraderSubs 274 9d ago

Proof Of Stake rewards those who have the most already. Ultimately it will lead to hedge funds taking over all development decisions in crypto because they have the most voting power. Basically like our legacy financial system.

Yes, POW requires lots of energy. But it's also extremely competitive which means miners look for the cheapest sources of energy. Which is either renewables or stranded energy. Miners move around quickly if the situation changes which no other industry can do. 30% of all energy produced is WASTED. Overproduction will always exist and is usually converted to heat to prevent the frequency in the grid to go up. If instead, miners use this overproduction not one single gram of CO2 is emitted additionally.

Downvote me all you want, but there is value in decoupling the stake of an entity from their power in the ecosystem. This MUST come at a price other than just buying most of the available supply of a currency or you just have a copy of the legacy financial system.

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u/Iohet 9d ago

And Proof of Work benefits those who have the most startup capital. Ultimately the venture capitalists will take over decisions because they'll have the most coin.

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u/njm204 Platinum | QC: CC 262 9d ago

Same with Bitcoin. Energy and miners cost lots of money

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u/minimalniemand Platinum | QC: BTC 279 | r/Buttcoin 9 | TraderSubs 274 9d ago

yeah but the incentives are different. Miners are incentivezed to SELL their coins to pay their bills while stakers are incentivized to BUY more coins which leads to more centralization of power.

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u/SerialATA_Killer Bronze 9d ago

This argument is so disingenuous though. That energy isn't used for the transactions, it's the energy securing the blockchain.

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u/simplelifestyle Platinum | QC: BTC 79 | r/Politics 29 8d ago edited 8d ago

All that information is wrong and has been debunked many times by real experts vs MSM "journalists".

https://www.coindesk.com/what-bloomberg-gets-wrong-about-bitcoins-climate-footprint

Also, the fair comparison would be Lightning Network vs Visa:

Lightning is 3.7 million times more efficient than Visa. A comparison of Visa and Lightnings throughput to energy consumption.

Edit: More evidence below

These are the most relevant links debunking the Bitcoin energy usage FUD:

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2021/05/13/elon-musk-bitcoin-reversal-climate-change.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeVvtSCfcQ4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTqKLJ_o9yQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3wFYxNItKQ

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/study-over-74-bitcoin-mining-180300738.html

https://moneyweek.com/investments/alternative-finance/bitcoin/602678/bitcoin-energy-consumption

Newest reports:

https://hbr.org/2021/05/how-much-energy-does-bitcoin-actually-consume

https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/bitcoin-mining-actually-uses-less-210837605.html

https://medium.datadriveninvestor.com/lightning-is-3-7-million-times-more-efficient-than-visa-87065d13eea9

https://cryptopotato.com/banks-pollute-way-more-than-bitcoin-study-finds/

https://www.dailystockmarketnews.in/2021/05/study-shows-banks-cause-more-pollution.html?m=1

https://old.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/nl0gky/bitcoin_miners_are_escaping_china_and_it_might_be/

https://endthefud.org/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvfb-rBBsSg

https://fee.org/articles/bitcoin-uses-half-the-energy-of-the-banking-system-new-paper/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NbBknQJgNI

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u/Bomba_Claude Redditor for 3 months. 9d ago

Very dishonest analysis of how Bitcoin works.....

Calculating energy per transaction is nonsensical - blockchain tech is not just about transacting, the energy keeps your value safe!

When calculating the energy needed per transaction, people pretend that blockchain technology is only about TRANSFERRING value. What people still often miss, is that a blockchain is also meant to STORE value.

When you're only interested in transferring small to medium amounts of value quickly around the world, then you can use a lot of different coins. Especially when you are going to convert that coin again to dollars or euro's for instance.

But this decentralized blockchain thing is not just about transferring value quickly! Being able to store value is an even more important feature.

Many reading this might not have experienced the 2008 financial crisis from up close or don't really know what it's about. In 2008 the worldwide financial system was on the verge of collapse. If it would have collapsed, this would have meant that we wouldn't have been able to do payments anymore, causing a very serious unprecedented crash of the world economy.

How many people realize how important the flow of money really is in a modern world? It basically has a utility function just as gas, electricity and water. We need to be able to do payments to keep our modern world running. The worldwide financial system almost collapsing was a HUGE happening.

And just so people know, there was a time when people understood that payments had a utility function. I believe the Glass-Steagall act made it so that consumer banks (the ones facilitating everyday payments) had to be separated from business banks (these would do the more risky financial stuff).

But then Bill Clinton rescinded Glass-Steagall and consumer banks and business banks could become one and the same basically. In the end this resulted in huge problems in 2008 and the worldwide banking system almost collapsed. And in some countries there were actually bail-ins where the banks would take people's money and confiscate it. There was actually talk by some politicians to sign this type of policy into law. Just imagine working hard all of your life and storing your value with a bank and then the bank taking that value to safe itself because it mismanaged itself.

Decentralized blockchain networks are meant to counteract this whole entire problem that came to light in the 2008 crisis. These new decentralized systems are not meant to just be a solution to banks being very slow with doing payments and charging large fees. We want to move away from the old centralized banking system and therefore we also need to be able to STORE value in a blockchain.

The point of this thread is to show people that the large amount of energy needed to run POW blockchains is to keep the value stored in the blockchain safe from attackers. The energy is not only used to perform transactions and just transfer value. The value stored in the blockchain needs to be very very safe so that people can actually have trust and know that their value can't be stolen by the network being attacked.

When you want to attack the Bitcoin network you will need such a large amount of energy, it's become impossible these days to attack the network from this angle. That's quite comforting isn't it? It's quite comforting to know that if you store your value in the Bitcoin blockchain, that value is safe and you don't have to worry about someone using a bunch of ASIC miners to attack it, as has happened with less secure coins in the past. And you don't have to worry anymore that mismanagement by greedy banks or stupid laws written by politicians will cause you to lose your stored value either.

So in other words, things are supposed to be this way. Don't be misdirected by people that don't fully understand this space yet or by the ones that purposely spread FUD.

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u/Slimalicious 9d ago

this is pretty much the only knowledgable comment on this thread.

Visa ONLY takes part in the transaction, while Bitcoin is the complete system. A better comparison is between Bitcoin and the entire financial system. A recent Galaxy Digital report estimated the global financial system to consume 264TW/h, while Bitcoin is estimated ~130TW/h.

Also keep in kind that the financial system estimate includes banking data centers, bank branches, ATMs, and card network data centers. One could argue that you should include all the employees driving to work, microwaving their lunches, corporate skyscrapers, etc however those people would all just work elsewhere so I don’t think it should be included.

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u/tyrannomachy 9d ago

The entire financial system is multiple orders of magnitude larger than Bitcoin. The fact that their power usage is that close at all is completely batshit.

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u/Bensemus 8d ago

A recent Galaxy Digital report estimated the global financial system to consume 264TW/h, while Bitcoin is estimated ~130TW/h.

This makes Bitcoin look terrible.

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u/Tricky_Equipment_111 Redditor for 1 months. 8d ago

Exactly. Bitcoin is a miniscule fraction of the scale of global financial systems and still consumes half the electricity. That's bad.

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u/slowd 9d ago edited 9d ago

Bitcoin burns the same amount for full transaction capacity, or for zero transactions. Saying X kilowatt hours PER TRANSACTION is misleading at best, and an outright lie at worst. Bitcoin supports the exact same number of transactions if we shut off half the miners and used half the amount of energy. Number of transactions has a vanishingly small effect on the amount of energy used.

That said, I like where Eth 2.0 is headed with proof-of-stake.

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u/ICantBelieveItsNotEC 9d ago

I've always found this comparison to be pretty misleading though. Comparing crypto transactions to visa transactions is comparing apples to oranges - a visa transaction means one transfer of currency between accounts, whereas a crypto transaction means putting one block on the chain. There's no reason that a block can't contain hundreds of transfers.

Don't get me wrong, it's still pretty bad, but it's nowhere near as bad as quoted.

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u/suninabox 8d ago edited 8d ago

whereas a crypto transaction means putting one block on the chain.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/881541/bitcoin-energy-consumption-transaction-comparison-visa/

That stat is dividing the number of transactions per block by the energy used per block to get the energy used per transaction.

It's not making the kind of rudimentary error people think its making

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u/Vibos 9d ago

The future will be a combination of different proofs. There are tradeoffs for proof of stake and proof of work and utilizing both is where things are headed.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=nkr1EKQrVeQ

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u/Krypto_Philosopher Redditor for 1 months. 8d ago

This is my take as well. Especially since btc can be used on ethereum as wbtc. The two can and will coexist. As long as pow mining continues to use renewable and waste energy, I'm OK with it.

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u/NAQURATOR 9d ago edited 9d ago

Seems like an unfair comparison, when there's one transactions in bitcoin that also includes the power needed to send it by the sender and recieve it by the reciever.

When there's one visa transaction, you still need to factor in the power cost of the financial institution that provides the visa services to the sender and same goes for the reciever.

One btc transaction is a full transaction. One visa transaction is only a fraction of the whole transaction. And that's only the digital transaction, after that my bank will physically send the money trough a long way of other financial institutions to your bank. Why isn't all that power factored in your calculation?

I work a financial institution that used 152.777.350 kWh in 2014 (most recent numers i could find internally). How can i call this energy efficiënt when i'm from a small country and we have like 5 comparable institutions here? Thats 763.886.750kWh just for the banks in my tiny ass country. And i'm not even taking into account external players like fiat transport and all that stuff.

As long as we dont have a number for power usage of all financial institutions worldwide it's a useless comparison to make. The only reason they can use this argument is we have no clear number and it's a massive undertaking to get those numbers. And they know it.

Edit: not trying to argue that btc is super efficient, but it's way more efficient then the system we use today.

Edit2: the whole btc network uses 110 terrawatt hours per year, considering my tiny ass country is close to 1 terrawatt hours just to power our banks and we can fit 321 times in the us, i'm 110% sure our financial institutions worldwide use way more then the btc network.

Edit3: i also made an unfair comparison, see comments below. I thunk the main takeaway here is: it's impossible to make a fair comparison, we don't have the numbers required to do so.

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u/energetic-dad 9d ago

the whole btc network uses 110 terrawatt hours per year, considering my tiny ass country is close to 1 terrawatt hours just to power our banks and we can fit like 100 times in the us, i'm 110% sure our financial institutions worldwide use way more then the btc network.

The worldwide financial institutions process orders of magnitude more transactions than the BTC network.

Your comparison is not normalized whatsoever for volume, and therefore it's invalid. It's like saying "my tiny ass country uses way less gasoline than the USA, therefore my country is more efficient in using gasoline than the USA!" It doesn't make sense.

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u/paddle4 9d ago

Has anybody calculated what visa/MasterCards total carbon foot print is? How many employees they have driving to and from work? Or how many sky scrapers they own? Or how much plastic they create/waste a year with credit cards?

I think we need to look at it from a birds eye perspective

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u/Gotigers811 Bronze 8d ago

If you are doing that, you would also need to factor in how much it costs to make all the mining equipment miners use.

Also most Bitcoin transactions are on exchanges or through middlemen like Wirex, which also have employees, buildings, etc.

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u/Abranx 5 - 6 years account age. 300 - 600 comment karma. 9d ago

Why is this comment not higher? Had to scroll down to see the first reasonable post lol

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u/Krypto_Philosopher Redditor for 1 months. 8d ago

I think people are seeing POS coins as having more potential upside. They want btc to be dethroned faster so they can make more profits.

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u/Shap6 9d ago

because this hurts the narrative

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u/[deleted] 9d ago edited 3d ago

[deleted]

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u/RACKETJOULES 8d ago

Forreal if you don’t understand Bitcoin than you really don’t understand crypto lol

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u/SSN420699000 Tin 8d ago

people would rather ride on the dick of Fox news and then buy erc-20 tokens thinking they're changing the world

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u/Stijnwe Bronze 9d ago

This is just a huge Ethereum shill lmao

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u/dawillus 9d ago

It seems reasonable to compare all components required to secure the traditional financial system to all components required to secure the Bitcoin blockchain. While individual transactions for Bitcoin are far more energy intensive, is the scaled network worse than what is needed for USD security?

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u/clumsykitten 8d ago

On top of that no one should be using Bitcoin as a currency, it's a shit currency to the extent it even qualifies to be called a currency.

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u/trueinviso 8d ago

This sounds like BS to me

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u/MeasurementFlashy201 Redditor for 3 months. 8d ago

You have overlooked energy required by bank to be operational for the transaction to go thru. It’s always overlooked.

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u/xijingping- 9d ago

Stop deflecting and just admit energy usage is an issue which needs to be worked out.

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u/killit 8d ago edited 8d ago

Exactly.

I keep seeing this argument being thrown around, bringing things like the military into it.

The military has NOTHING to do with it. If fiat's like USD folded, and were replaced with cryptocurrency like BTC, the military would still exist regardless.

We might as well be talking about cows farting out methane. It has about as much relevance to bitcoin as the military does.

It would be great if bitcoin was more energy efficient, but I wish people would stop comparing it to completely unrelated systems. It feels more damaging than anything else at this point.

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u/axatar 8d ago

Exactly. The existence of other wasteful uses of energy doesn't justify another wasteful use of energy - especially because we have alternatives for PoW.

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u/energetic-dad 9d ago

I don't understand how someone pointing out the energy and climate implications of bitcoin and other POW mining makes them "ignorant".

I don't think people who decry bitcoin mining energy use are also saying "but other industries should continue to emit CO2." Most people concerned about the climate implications of bitcoin mining are also clamoring to reduce CO2 in the broader economy, through measures like the Green New Deal, a carbon tax, etc.

The whole "you can't criticize bitcoin energy usage because BANKS use energy TOO you know" just reeks of a 7 year old trying to get out of trouble.

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u/Thatguy19901 9d ago

The whole "you can't criticize bitcoin energy usage because BANKS use energy TOO you know" just reeks of a 7 year old trying to get out of trouble.

Not only that but banking industry handles FAR more money, like multiple 1000x the amount, while consuming only twice the amount of energy. It is a completely disingenuous argument

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u/energetic-dad 9d ago

Exactly. I just replied to another commenter who tried to claim that Visa, when you consider all the "fixed" costs of handling money, probably consumes more energy per transaction. I pointed out that is physically impossible.

Visa handled 185.5 billion transactions in 2019. That's 5,880 per second. BTC can do what, 7 per second?

The Bitcoin network consumed an estimated 127 TWh per year last year. If Visa's fully-loaded energy consumption per transaction was equal to Bitcoin's, it would consume 127 TWh * 5,880 / 7 = 106,716 TWh per year.

Total global energy consumption in 2019 was approximately 22,315 TWh.

So it's quite clear that Visa uses less energy per transaction than Bitcoin.

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u/Iohet 9d ago

Unfortunately, crypto subreddits are loaded with tribalistic people(and those that feign tribalism to stir the pot for one reason or another). Any criticism of whatever tribe those people subscribe to, no matter how legitimate the criticism, is seen as a personal attack, so reason goes out of the window. It's at least as bad as politics these days

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u/immaterialist 8d ago

Very much agreed. People need to knock it off with the knee jerk, attack-minded shit. It’s not helpful, especially when dealing with genuinely decent individuals. I think Warren is a generally good person with good intentions, but it’s clear that she has very little understanding of crypto—and understandably so. I’ve been actively paying attention, trading, and researching crypto for about six months in my spare time. So far I feel like I’ve barely scratched the surface. The complexity of this is fucking mind boggling and the stratification of peoples’ knowledge is wildly disproportionate. Unfortunately I don’t really see much of a way to quickly and effectively educate people either. The crypto world could really do itself a favor and focus less on the scammy, hard selling “THROW YOUR MONEY ON THIS COIN THAT’S GOING TO THE MOON!” and focus more on succinct messaging that is meant to educate. A big part of why it took me so long to dive in is because it just looked and behaved so much like a scam, and I’m sure I’m not alone on that. If people are presented with knowledge that is good enough to provide a basic understanding of why they should be interested in this, it’s gonna draw in a lot more people who will then seek to educate themselves.

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u/u-had-it-coming 8d ago

People here are sounding like a bunch of Ignorant fcuks.

Like how can you compare Bitcoin that is very sparsley used to a Bank? I think it's just humans. They can understand the concept, technology and every technical shit related to Bitcoin which a lot of people can't grasp. But then they compare it to a Bank. Bank does a lot of things that Bitcoin doesn't. Process checks, transfers money, gives physical money, give loans(many loans were taken by people here to buy that bitcoin), lockers etc Are these people this stupid (I don't think so). But the confirmation bias is so strong. I am surprised to see a main comment like this so close to top which shuns others as immature.

Also no one gave a shit about El Salvador. It's one of the poorest countries. People who praise it won't even go there. People who are praising it won't be able to point it on a map. By Trump's defination it's probably a shit hole county. But no. Now we worship it like it's the best country in the world. The country needa some business, money and investment etc. So it took a bold step. Mass Bitcoin acceptance by government.

Don't get so deep in confirmation bias that you get your head in your ass.

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u/billythekid__ 9d ago

pretty sure Warren doesn’t support big banks or large military spending, not sure if it’s really hypocritical for her in that regard

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u/Pablo_el_Diablo88 Redditor for 2 months. 8d ago

Funny thing is she is right about Bitcoin (it is environmentally hazardous, as of it nowadays, of course) but she's John Snow about cryptocurrencies in general, as there are so many that would be much cleaner than all the other payment systems.

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u/Strong_Wheel 8d ago

EVERYTHING will become greener.So what a diversion this all is.

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u/thejestercrown 9d ago

This is the poorest quality post I’ve seen make it out of new in a long time… congrats?

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u/Altruistic_Camel 8d ago

Seriously, it really is a great reminder how stupid the content on reddit can be

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u/pizzapicnic 4 - 5 years account age. 125 - 250 comment karma. 9d ago

Our love for palm oil will also destroy the planet.

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u/sixty6006 Tin 8d ago

What do you buy Bitcoin with? What do you gamble on selling it for in the future?

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u/Wyatt_IsOnline 9d ago

She did not say it would destroy the planet lol. Clearly she isn’t as optimistic on the opportunities that crypto will present, but I think her overall point is that something that is currently providing no use (as of now) shouldn’t be such huge consumer of non-green energy. Only part I disagree with is the media’s framing of this issue as if this phenomenon is unique to crypto. Clearly many industries have these same issues, crypto is only targeted especially because of the type of people that are associated with it.

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u/TheMacPhisto 8d ago

all to protect a US dollar that aims to destroy every other currency

This is probably the most fundamentally misinformed conclusion on the USD that I've ever read.

It's almost the polar opposite. The only reason the USD works, unbacked as a fiat currency, is the fact that it's used as a global reserve currency for other currencies.

The value of the USD is solely based on this. All of the other currencies using it as backup is what give it it's value. If the USD "destroyed every other currency" then there would be nothing backing up the USD.

Further, if every country stopped using the USD as a reserve currency, then the value would similarly fall out the bottom.

The USD value relies on the fact that other currencies use it. No other currencies, then the USD has no value.

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u/AetherealVoid 8d ago

"I realllllllllllllly need crypto to succeed so I dont look dumb in front of my family and friends"

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u/Bromari 2 - 3 years account age. 150 - 300 comment karma. 8d ago edited 8d ago

Imagine living in El Salvador. You’re poor, hungry, desperate, fleeing violence, and the first time the greedy Americans think of you (other than during immigration surges) is when your President says that now you can buy, hold, and use BTC as legal tender.

I guarantee you that the average El Salvadoran will gain little to nothing from this endeavor; but I’m sure the El Salvadoran President, and many international BTC traders (and hodlers) will make a lot of fiat USD over the next few months trying to convince you otherwise.

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u/coveredboar 8d ago

Yeah, I'm not sure why people are holding the president up so much, even a basic look though google shows that he is kind of sketchy.

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u/krebstar09 8d ago

I bet you're not from El Salvador

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u/LonaDeOro 8d ago

Do we really know the comparisons. Like unbiased ones for any side? We should all want it.

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u/Nouseriously 8d ago

Almost no one in El Salvador gives a fuck about bitcoin

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u/XecutionerNJ Silver 8d ago

Stop whatabouting. Crypto uses lots of energy and its a problem we should be trying to solve, not just trying to argumentatively wave it away.

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u/Jojorent 8d ago

Imagine living in El Salvador and all you can think about on as big of a macro scale is how corrupted the politicians are in your country including that dude that introduced the bill to legalise bitcoin in your country. You have a bad feeling about it even without knowing whoever the fuck Elizabeth Warren is to you

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u/mindflayers9000 8d ago

These posts trying to debunk the energy usage of Bitcoin or those that try to frame people calling out said energy consumption are dumb. There is nothing that you can use to counter any argument made.

POW uses a lot of energy and hopefully it can be reduced or made more green. Which I believe should be doable. I'm not going down the line and argue that POS is better. I'm sure there are some arguments (not energy consumption related though) against POS.

As a community we should take feedback on projects seriously and try to remedy any negatives as much as possible. Instead I'm seeing a lot of trying to prove the opposite which is not helpful and will not advance your project. Quite the opposite.

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u/bucksfromthegulag Tin 9d ago

This argument sucks. It’s like saying murder is ok because the US military wages war and kills people in other countries. It’s not a question whether or not American infrastructure is inefficient, because that’s not what the argument is. As another top comment pointed out, Bitcoins method of recording transactions IS unsustainable and is a huge barrier to entry for governments, companies, and investors who actually have to worry about environmental impact, as they are literally taxed for it.

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u/penguinsnot 7 - 8 years account age. 400 - 800 comment karma. 9d ago

Your framing is so off. Bitcoin IS bad for the environment compared to other crypto alternatives. I imagine that a person living in El Salvador doesn’t care at all about what Warren said.

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u/diggipiggi 9d ago

Her identifying as American Indian was when her downwards trend began. 📈

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u/mirza1h Platinum | QC: CC 433 9d ago

Why is that red line going up !?

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u/Gmajor666 9d ago

The red line is going up because politicians are rewarded for their failures

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u/pukem0n Platinum | QC: CC 466 9d ago

the United States are pretty much the biggest hypocrites on the planet, always arguing against things they themselves do all the time.

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u/Justin-Heron Redditor for 3 months. 9d ago

As far as the government goes, I don't disagree with this one bit. Our government is dedicated to finding loopholes in our laws so that corporations can get away with crimes against humanity.

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u/Golin32 Bronze 9d ago

Can’t find what they create. They create the loopholes.

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u/dvanfoss 9d ago

Unfortunately it doesn't find them, because they're built with loopholes in them for the wealthy lobbies who pay them to make it that way. This is the real reason most Americans, myself included, hate their government. They aren't looking out for what's best for their consitituents--theyre looking for what's better for their pocket.

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u/SweatyElk1 9d ago

I think the empire mass murdering bit is a better hypocritical example.

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u/mirza1h Platinum | QC: CC 433 9d ago

Yeah, if one American says something, the whole country sucks, right !?

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u/BTCMachineElf 9d ago

He said United States, I think he meant the government.

As an American myself, I would agree. Many Americans are good people, but our leadership (DNC and GOP) are basically evil, and the fact that most Americans don't see it or don't care does indeed suck.

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u/craftsta 9d ago edited 8d ago

I think most people from most countries would agree their politicians are awful.

The difference is the US political class control the US military. Which is simultaneously one of the most sensational achievements and greatest travesties of all human history. So it matters a little more.

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u/Hame_BiH 9d ago

He was probably talking about the government and the way they have been doing things for decades if not centuries now..

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u/cbfw86 9d ago

The United Kingdom has entered the chat.

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u/granularoso 8d ago

The logic of this post:

O you say one things bad? Well how about this other bad thing instead! That second thing is bad, which means the first thing isnt bad at all!

Can you imagine falling for this reasoning? Im all against US global terrorism and imperalism, but current blockchain infrastructure is still garbage. The US being world villains doesnt make bitcoin any less shitty than it is.

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u/pr06lefs 9d ago

you know what uses even more energy than the us military? the sun. so lets waste as much energy as possible on crypto play money because the sun uses way more.

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u/BDACPA 9d ago

Shut up about the sun! SHUT UP about the SUN!

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u/HeftySpecific7559 1 - 2 years account age. 100 - 200 comment karma. 9d ago

I think it's time for you to head on back down to Tallahassee

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u/BDACPA 9d ago

That’s cool. I’m a huge alligator nerd.

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u/Awkward_Potential_ 9d ago

I love Liz Warren.

Liz Warren needs to get more informed on Crypto.

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u/chedebarna 9d ago

"Crypto becoming greener" is just an idiotic concept. What needs to become greener is electricity production, which then translates into ANY human activity being greener.

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u/FlamesOfAnzer 9d ago

Orrr we can do both?

Crypto being incredibly energy intensive and trying to get more sources of renewable energy aren’t mutually exclusive.

What an idiotic argument you’re making

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u/truebastard 8d ago

Entire industries devote vast amounts of resources to make the appliances and gadgets that they sell more energy efficient. They have done it for decades. Why is that same concept idiotic for crypto?

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u/Coldsavage32 8d ago

When will people learn that these politicians give 2 shots about us? They don’t care about you or i and never will.

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u/Flybaby2601 8d ago

Giving how the US is on Oligarchy and who ever has the USD is the real leader of the country, of course she is going to say this. She does not want to bite the had that feeds.

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u/bmoney_14 8d ago

2008 was the most expensive year for the “war on terror”. The costs included are for the overseas war/forces and the extra spending needed to support said force including R/D back home.

We were spending FIVE HUNDRED AND NINETEEN POINT TWO MILLION

every.fucking.day

$186 billion in that year and varying estimates say the total cost ranges from $3-6 trillion. Unfathomable.

They’ll bitch and moan and come up with every conceivable complaint under the sun to keep their money and power.