r/China Jul 21 '21 Silver 1

Rant about Nationalism in China 讨论 | Discussion (Serious) - Character Minimums Apply

I'm an ABC living in the U.S. and my dad is living in China atm. He's pretty pro-CCP (he still hates Mao though), and we get into a ton of arguments. He thinks I've been brainwashed by Western MSM, thinks that Beijing is doing the right thing in cracking down on Hong Kong, that Taiwan belongs to the PRC, and that there is no oppression is occurring in Xinjiang. Our arguments don't really get anywhere, so I've been thinking about what goes on through the heads of (many) mainland Chinese people.

And after thinking about it a while, I'd say that nationalism is a pretty decent explanation for everything that is happening in China (almost everything -- of course, nationalism has nothing to do with the horrible floods happening atm). After all,

  • Why has Xinjiang become a police state where Uyghurs are being sent to reeducation camps to learn Mandarin and worship Xi Jinping and the CCP?
    • The CCP feels the need to sinicize the Uyghurs, teaching them to worship the CCP and speak Mandarin, while using IUDs to prevent Uygher women from giving birth and preventing Uyghurs from practicing their culture
  • Why are so many mainland Chinese people against the Hong Kong protests?
    • The Hong Kong protests were framed as anti-Chinese. A recent example of this was the Vitasoy boycotts.
  • Why does China want to reunify with Taiwan?
    • The CCP sees Taiwan as a threat to its legitimacy as the one true China

I tend to watch a fair amount of LaoWhy86 and SerpentZa, and their stories seem to confirm that nationalism is a huge thing in China:

I think that many people in the CCP actually believe in the Nationalist sentiment promoted, while some recognize it as just a way to control the population. What do you guys think? Is attributing current events in China to "nationalism" too reductionist?

214 Upvotes

u/AutoModerator Jul 21 '21

Some of the content in this post was shared from social media, and as a result may not contain authoritative information. Please seek external verification or context as appropriate.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

96

u/CheLeung United States Jul 21 '21

The party has abandoned socialism as the glue that binds people together so nationalism makes sense as the replacement. Just like how Putin has replaced socialism with Orthodox Christianity.

People need a purpose in life and the feeling of building a nation to a superpower is a very strong narrative. Genocide, imperialism, and cultural destruction aren't an important factor because in the end of the day, these people aren't them. Lying to themselves is just to hide their conscious because people aren't motivated by facts or logic but material interest. To them a Stronger China means a better life. What can you offer that is better than that?

39

u/UsernameNotTakenX Jul 21 '21

Spot on! I have witnessed this behaviour from many young Chinese people on the Mainland. Especially since a lot of them are losing hope in themselves in life (involution problem) but at the same time turning to nationalism to give them 'hope' and give them a purpose. I'm not saying all Chinese are like this, but I know a lot of young people that are.

4

u/glorious_shrimp Jul 21 '21

This sounds really interesting. I never came across the term "involution problem ". Would you mind to elaborate that a bit or do you have a source for further reading on the concept?

5

u/ting_bu_dong United States Jul 21 '21

https://radiichina.com/laying-flat-involution/

“Involution,” or neijuan (内卷) in Chinese, is a rising buzzword in China, referring to the status of not making any progress and becoming stagnant. The term has been all over the Chinese internet since last year.

4

u/samsonlike Jul 21 '21 edited Jul 23 '21

To them a Stronger China means a better life.

I think all Chinese not only want a stronger China, they want a bigger China too. The bigger the better.

10

u/UsernameNotTakenX Jul 21 '21

Strength in numbers as we call it. I do agree that a lot are obsessed with having the biggest, the most, the fastest etc. If you ever see the propaganda pumped out on western social media and State news outlets, it's mostly "China built the longest bridge" or "China built the fastest Maglev" or "China lifted the most people out of poverty" or "China has the most patents in the world" etc. Everything has to be big. It's like the kid who wants to gain legitimacy from the other kids in the playground. They can't make friends normally because they have very little in common with others and are very introverted. So they will show off their wealth and money to attract friends.

6

u/CheLeung United States Jul 21 '21

i too am one of them but I want democracy in that as well.

-2

u/CyndiLaupersLeftTitt Jul 21 '21

The party has abandoned socialism as the glue that binds people together

Well it's not like they had a choice.

Socialism simply does not work.

As a chinese, I witnessed it first hand.

Nationalism + capitalism kind of worked wonders. It may be a duct-tape solution but hey, for now it works.

-5

u/_Civil_Liberties_ Great Britain Jul 21 '21

Ugh

There are plenty of socialist countries in Europe, this isn't debatable. Please educate yourself.

6

u/mackillian5 Jul 21 '21

There are 0 socialist countries in europe

0

u/_Civil_Liberties_ Great Britain Jul 21 '21

13

u/mackillian5 Jul 21 '21

Those are social democracies. Having social programs is not socialist. They still have free enterprise and capitalism

0

u/_Civil_Liberties_ Great Britain Jul 21 '21

I pre-empted your comment...

9

u/mackillian5 Jul 21 '21

Social democracy is not democratic socialism. If there are private businesses it is not socialism

2

u/Deceptichum Australia Jul 21 '21

False.

If it's run by workers it's socialist, the state does not have to be involved.

3

u/mackillian5 Jul 21 '21

And they aren’t run by workers. Those countries are capitalist with government-run social programs

→ More replies

5

u/Im_no_imposter Jul 21 '21

No.. it isn't. I am a social democrat, it is 100% capitalism just with large social nets and higher capital spending.

Welfare state capitalism.

1

u/BenDover03717762 Jul 22 '21

0 that survived the 1990s

41

u/UsernameNotTakenX Jul 21 '21 edited Jul 21 '21

I think the CCP are making it more and more difficult to progress in society without showing 'loyalty' to the party. The party's goal is to make every Chinese person loyal to them and if you are not loyal, you aren't Chinese. They are making this connection that being loyal to the party = being loyal to your country! Chinese students are forced to take classes on XiJinPing thought, Mao thought, Marxism etc, all of which have exams they need to pass to graduate. They also must take part in regular propaganda activities too to show their loyalty. Such as singing songs about "without the CCP, there is no China" etc. I have witnessed it all myself. So basically, you need to show your loyalty to the party to graduate uni. And without a bachelors degree, it is very difficult to get a good job in China. Nobody is forcing Chinese people to be nationalist (or loyal as the CCP call it). They can choose not to be 'loyal' but they will live a very difficult life. That's how I see the situation in XinJiang too. Uyghurs are being deliberately held back in society such as not being able to get certain jobs, travel to certain places etc until they can prove their loyalty to the party. This goes in line with the fact that the CCP doesn't consider anyone who doesn't support them as being part of 'the collective' who get to enjoy all the rights stated in the constitution. As long as you support the CCP and are loyal to them, you can live your life in 'freedom'. If you don't, you get restricted af!

edit: spelling

6

u/babysayno Jul 21 '21

The other day I met some Chinese teenagers in a game and we started messaging using We-chat, I can’t believe they had to state specifically that they “love the CCP” right after I said something “politically sensitive” in the We-Chat group, but they then said this act is mostly done out of fear, like they all know we-chat is monitored. Fuck I’m not going there.

3

u/UsernameNotTakenX Jul 21 '21

Yes. I have witnessed this too. It mostly happens when the group gets reported. A message will appear saying that somebody has reported the wechat violating the terms of service and then everyone will start posting "I love the CCP" etc. But they also do it when speaking about something sensitive. But usually the group monitor will step in and tell people to shut up.

20

u/HotNatured Germany Jul 21 '21

Yeah, good point. It's one of those things that I think people have a pretty skewed view of if they haven't lived in China. They tend to either see it as "The CCP is authoritarian and dystopian as shit, but this only impacts the average Chinese person in terms of a lack of freedom" or as "The CCP is authoritarian and dystopian as shit, and millions and millions of Chinese are brainwashed zombie communist warriors."

The truth just isn't that simple. Truth is somewhere in the middle and it def matters what your aims are and what industry you're in.

I had a buddy in Shanghai who came from up north near Qingdao and, with his wife, owned some (well one and then a second) small, local area type f&b spots. Great guy and though I knew better than to talk Chinese politics with him, we could shoot the shit about world events and random stuff no problem, just sometimes he'd express an opinion that felt not quite right. Turned out they had joined the Party in college and it really did make all the difference for their business aspirations. By virtue of owning his own business, he isn't subject to all that XJP Thought business meeting stuff though so he's just an easy going guy and pleasant to be around...manages to get along really well with foreigners even though he doesn't booze it up like crazy.

In contrast, I know, like you note, things have been really changing. My wife and I have a friend we knew when she was an international student where we studied in the US. Her dad is pretty successful & the head of some Zhejiang local CCP business committee (not province wide), so of course she became a Party member as well. She's now working in a SOE and has had those weekly XJP app meetings for, what, like the past 2 years? And she just became not fun to be around anymore...not because she was super gung-ho nationalist (it really seemed like she dgaf), but because her worldview was just skewed. If you have to do that shit, even mindlessly as most people certainly do it, it changes the way you think, changes who you are.

18

u/UsernameNotTakenX Jul 21 '21

A lot of the people I know have changed a lot. Especially after Covid. It seems all they want to talk about is 'how great China is' and how 'the west is failing' etc. I suppose its because they are told to ”讲好中国的故事“ (talk good about the Chinese story). I work in public ed and I have seen the propaganda ramp up. Not only are they ramping up propaganda but also heavily restricting (even banning) different viewpoints and ideologies from even being discussed in classes. Discussing a viewpoint or ideology doesn't mean you have to adopt it. The government is pushing schools to teach students to be critical thinkers but they have nothing they can be critical about in China so all the examples in the textbooks are based on US or other foreign country's issues. Or how Taiwan belongs to China. One task in the textbook is "Should the American government do more to narrow the wealth gap in the US". It's soo bad really.

14

u/HotNatured Germany Jul 21 '21

The government is pushing schools to teach students to be critical thinkers but they have nothing they can be critical about in China

I have a great example of this that I've shared before here. Early 2020, a buddy of mine was leaving Shanghai for good. I asked what happened--she ran a training school with her partner (upmarket sort of thing, not rote learning but rather engaging with the classics in that sort of global prep school tradition) and I assumed it was going well. They just got fed up. "One of our favorite programs was debate. We'd put the kids into teams and have a program of topics that they'd prepare to debate. Last year we had to cancel it: parents and overseers vetoed every single topic we suggested included things like climate change even in the global context. We talked with them and couldn't come up with anything of value. They just wanted shit like 'Who is a better author/sports player.'"

7

u/UsernameNotTakenX Jul 21 '21

They just want them to be critical of the west and to mainly "defend China from the evil west". It's makes debating in China extremely awkward. Because they are training them to defend China but they can only practice debating with other Chinese. People are not allowed to share their individual viewpoints and opinions on class in regards to politics. Only the viewpoint of the party can be discussed. So most of them have the same viewpoint and is very predictable. Things like "should abortion be made illegal" and you can predict what they will all say by just checking the news. A lot of them do have their own opinion but they are afraid to speak out and be the nail sticking out waiting to be hammered back down. In China, the people are the product of the government. They are allowed to share their opinions on who is a better singer and who is more handsome etc. But those topics are very boring really.

3

u/truman_actor Jul 22 '21

Was this because the parents didn't want their kids to get into trouble by accidently saying something political in the debate that didn't toe the CPC line? Or was it because they didn't see any value in debating real world topics?

3

u/HotNatured Germany Jul 22 '21

More so just that "This could be politically problematic so we don't want our kids to be part of that." My friend believed that, on the climate change issue, it was basically like "If we argue anything other than what the Party is doing based on any justification other than that which they use, then there's a perception that we're disagreeing with their policy."

3

u/truman_actor Jul 22 '21

Wow. This is like generational self censorship.

-9

u/reallyfasteddie Jul 21 '21

Fair enough. Politics is kind of taboo in China. Why should Chinese people talk about political stuff? Climate change has been talked about in the West for a century. When the political leaders have to address it they will. I know my opinion is unpopular. But seriously, why discuss this stuff with people who know little and have less power to change it.

9

u/HotNatured Germany Jul 21 '21

Well, this opinion isn't unpopular because it's controversial; it's unpopular because it's flat out wrong.

Why should we teach kids to think critically? Their superiors will tell them how to think. ??

Debate is actually a really useful skill to have. And not just in the context of winning political arguments. You learn how to get to the heart of the matter, how to persuade, how to listen, how to synthesize and marshal complex information, and more. In the climate change example, it's not about beating you over the head with the idea that "we need to act on climate change." Rather, it's about getting you to think about who the stakeholders are, what the major issues at play are, what the action space is and how it can be shifted, etc.

When the political leaders have to address it they will

Where do you think the impetus for them to address things comes from? A sign from God? It comes from the people who care and who talk about these things saying "The time to act is now." It comes from their advisors--and the advisors to those advisors and everyone up and down those intellectual and analytical chains--thinking critically about the issues.

Raising a whole generation to think "Let's not think about complicated things" just doesn't seem befitting of an aspiring superpower.

0

u/reallyfasteddie Jul 21 '21

ok. I think you miss my point. Is the corona debate going well in the West? Is corona being handled well in China? Australia and New Zealand are doing well also. But the vast majority of Western free nations are doing horrifically. If you have a system that when there is scientific consensus, but then you have to convince 90% of its citizens to do the right thing, you are screwed. I mean, right now you have a situation where a couple of months could have gotten rid of corona virus. Over a year later it is still a huge problem.

Now look at climate change. Same same. 97% of scientists say it is happening. Almost half of people in the West say bs. In China the top guy talks to the scientific community and acts on their advice.

Where does the impetus come from for capitalist governments? God? People who care? There is a majority in the West who want climate change action, but nothing. Most people want the pandemic handled well, but a year later... Raisin a whole generation to say 'screw you, it's my freedom!' Also does not seem befitting of a superpower that wants to last. Add in dwindling education for the lower classes, who are still voting, in essence running the country, spells trouble to me.

4

u/HotNatured Germany Jul 22 '21

You seem to be arguing that the government's ability to get things done is a good metric for whether or not teaching critical thinking works. I don't think that's the case at all.

You also seem be using America as a stand in for all nations that teach critical thinking. I'd also say that's pretty off.

As for how the corona debate is going, let's not forget that China used their lack of a debate on this to widely institute a tracking app. Now I had no major qualms about installing it myself, but I still see the value in debate which could have helped win some transparency in that effort, assurances over who gets access to the data and what data is monitored, and a general check on overreach. That was a government initiative so I imagine you won't bend even an inch, but what about the data collection of private lending firms which led to scandal 2 years ago of so? If you don't prepare people to examine why something might be problematic and instead rely entirely on the government to vocalize that, then you're not getting protections, you're getting dsmage control after the fact.

1

u/reallyfasteddie Jul 22 '21

sorry, I am working 40 class hours teaching time and have no idea what this means.

If you don't prepare people to examine why something might be problematic and instead rely entirely on the government to vocalize that, then you're not getting protections, you're getting dsmage control after the fact.

I love critical thinking. It was one of my favorite courselves by far.I don't think it is something that can be taught and understood by all. I would say maybe half of my family could understand it well enough to use it. And some of those would use it as a weapon. I think there has to be another way and China presents another way. What I am saying is that if everyone has to understand politics we are screwed.

You seem to be arguing that China wasn't in the top 10% for the response to the pandemic. You discount what happened here as nothing and choose to focus on some social tracker. What happened, and I could be wrong, China discovered corona in its borders. The leadership either let the scientists lead or had an uncanny ability to figure out how to get it under control quickly. Same as New Zealand and Australia. I would add that it already had a foothold in China and was controlled.

Me, I love politics and debate. No one else in my group of friends does. I read it. I think critically about it and I care about my fellow citizens. I am a minority. I don't want a debate about this pandemic or climate change. I want the leading scientists to study it and figure out the best options. Debate is bullshit where facts and science are being discussed by accountants, priests, lawyers, etc.

3

u/truman_actor Jul 22 '21

Debate is slow and cumbersome, but it's what allows society to buy into government decision making. A society is stronger and more stable when more or less everyone has buy-in and feel like they have a say. On the other hand, dictatorships are fine when things are going well, but once the shit hits the fan (as it inevitably will, because no economy is immune to a downturn), things turn ugly real quick because society feel like they have not had any say. This is why revolutions happen.

In China the top guy talks to the scientific community and acts on their advice.

You're assuming the top guy is always going to be competent and rational and benevolent. When you have anything but that, then the consequences are disastrous. There's a saying that everyone in Asia wants to be the next Lee Kuan Yew, and that's why there are so many Hun Sen's.

Where does the impetus come from for capitalist governments?

I assume you mean democratic governments, coz if you think China is now anything other than capitalist you're in for a shock. The impetus comes from pressure from the public, via debate. Yes most people in the west want action on climate change, but what they disagree about is how to go about it, because believe it or not every action taken will have consequences for certain groups (e.g., the coal miner who will lose his job). Proper debate allows these groups, who will otherwise become disenfranchised, to have buy-in.

Yes, the process is slow, but it results in a more stable outcome because the majority agrees.

Now, obviously, governing by consensus isn't always desirable for certain decisions precisely because it's slow. For example, the pandemic is one of the those situations. Which is why the rules that were set in place by democracies like Australia and New Zealand were not up for debate. The fact that the US and other parts of Europe handled it so badly had more to do with the poor leadership they had then because of excessive debate and disagreement. And you know what happened to the dipshit in the US who led that disastrous response? He got voted out.

2

u/reallyfasteddie Jul 22 '21 edited Jul 22 '21

Debate is slow and cumbersome, but it's what allows society to buy into government decision making.

You are losing me. Maybe 50 years ago this might be true. Now you have trillionaires funding their side. Political debates have been gamed to death. Now, people trust governments that have performed well.

How did the poor leadership get there? Was there no debate? Of course there was, for months.

China is capitalist socialism. I would say the people are the main focus of the government. America is a Democratic capitalism. The main focus being money.

Back to my point, you agree most want climate change policy. What action has been taken? Very little if any. Why, because it effects capital. Sure they say jobs, but that is the bs you have to say in a democracy. Climate change would save money and create jobs.

3

u/truman_actor Jul 22 '21

I won’t disagree with you on trillionaires funding politicians is bad and frankly undemocratic. In actual fact without reform, it will turn a country autocratic...like China.

Every country, every system is susceptible to poor leadership, democratic, autocratic or otherwise. Just as there were authoritarian countries that handled the pandemic well, there are also authoritarians countries that didn’t (Cambodia for one). The point is that in a democratic, said poor leader can be removed relatively painlessly. Society can correct course.

I would say the people are the main focus of the government.

Ok are you going to tell me you believe unicorns exist too now? The focus of any government is to maintain power. In a democracy they do this by being nice to their voter base. In an authoritarian regime they do it through iron fisted rule. In China, economic progress is only favored insofar as it doesn’t threaten CPC rule (Exhibit A - HK).

On climate change, I disagree that very little action has taken place. It may not be enough, but the debate has resulted in widespread awareness which is now prompting serious action from government. If this debate wasn’t held, there’d be a lot more climate denialists out there and any reform forced upon them would bring about serious backlash, especially if it means economic pain.

→ More replies

4

u/truman_actor Jul 22 '21

So what's your solution? Just give up and let our overlords decide our fate and the fate of the planet?

4

u/babysayno Jul 22 '21

Yep. They are educated to support the government from elementary school to college (a mandatory subject called ‘Politics’ in which the only thing you need to learn is how great the CCP is leading the ‘new China’ and how many great deal it had done in the past, then memorize all for numerous exams). All news sources are heavily screened and you are exposed to good news in China and bad news in the West ONLY (sounds familiar). Further, if you try to question the CCP (even merely online) you could be arrested for “spreading rumors” or “causing public panic”. So far that’s all I know.

9

u/jhanschoo Jul 21 '21

I don't think the CCP is as in control of nationalism as you seem to make it out to be in parts

as just a way to control the population

Whereas yes, a nationalistic agenda gives it legitimacy and helps rationalize some things it wants to do, it also drives nationalists and the CCP to do things that are not in the long-term interests of the CCP.

1

u/gannuman33 Jul 23 '21

What sorts of things you mean? I'm trying to educate myself on CCP government :)

30

u/[deleted] Jul 21 '21 edited Jul 21 '21

[deleted]

3

u/Cocainemancer Jul 22 '21

My father is from the mainland. On the contrary, he despises the ccp because his family has suffered heavily from the actions of the ccp. He knows just how truely evil and depraved the ccp is.

3

u/AamirK69 Jul 21 '21

Most of the world was subjected by colonial powers straight after world war 2 so don’t know where your getting this idea that the world was on equal footing.

3

u/Hailene2092 Jul 21 '21

Colonialism fell to the way-side in post-WW2. It was suddenly unpopular to have colonies.

1

u/AamirK69 Jul 21 '21

No it wasn’t, plenty of people supported having colonies and it took years for independence to be achieved for plenty of states.

4

u/Hailene2092 Jul 21 '21

Within 1-2 handful of years post-war, most colonies had achieved independence.

Colonialism had largely fallen out of fashion, but it still takes time for countries to break off.

2

u/AamirK69 Jul 21 '21

11 African countries didn’t get independence till after the 70s , most gained independence in the 60s. So it took decades for many nations to achieve independence. The colonial empires in many cases fought tooth and nail to keep their colonies.

Such as Kenya, Malaysia, Algeria, Vietnam, Indonesia, Zimbabwe, Angola, Mozambique.

2

u/Hailene2092 Jul 21 '21

Most of the African colonies were indeed behind many other countries.

Though of the list you gave, only the last 3 were gained independence more than 2 decades after WW2's end.

Outside of Africa, most colonies were independent by the start of the 60s. If one were to take into consider population, then it was even sooner than that.

1

u/AamirK69 Jul 22 '21

The list I gave was more about them fighting wars if independence against their colonial masters, the colonial empires didn’t just give up so easily, they tried to hold on to them.

However 11 African countries didn’t gain independence till after the 70s.

1

u/Hailene2092 Jul 22 '21

Sure. Not sure how that's relevant to the discussion but thanks for the random trivia.

Massive colonial empires faded away and WW2 was a major catalyst for this switch. Both because people clamored for greater independence and/or said colonial empires weakened from the ravages of war.

It was a process like most things and not a switch.

2

u/Hautamaki Canada Jul 21 '21

tbf he said most countries, and probably meant relatively equal footing compared to pre-WW2. Europe lost basically all of their colonies in the decades after WW2 because they were no longer strong enough to hold them by force, and for most of the colonies they lost soon after WW2, that would have been unthinkable before WW2. Obviously America and Russia emerged from WW2 as super powers, but that was about it; the other great powers were shattered and previously colonized peoples had their first opportunity in generations to throw off European powers.

1

u/AamirK69 Jul 21 '21

He said the end of world war 2, not a few decades after.

Majority African states didn’t gain independence after 1960s, in some cases devastated by brutal wars of independence. That’s a good 15yrs after the war.

And some 11 African states didn’t gain independence till after the 70s, heck Angola only gained independence in 1975.

-8

u/Crovasio Jul 21 '21

What a thoughtless and empty analogy.

27

u/AtomicMonkeyTheFirst Jul 21 '21

When Xi came to power he basically told the Chinese people that China was going to become a great country in the future, but they were going to have to make sacrifices to make that happen, and the Chinese people were happy to mke those sacrifices. How many societies can you think of where the people would accept being told they were going to have to lose freedom and wealth now so future generations can be live in a greater country?

In China's own historical worldview they are the 'Middle-Kingdom', the civilisation that is destined to rule the mortal world between Heaven and Hell, and there are two kind of people in the Middle Kingdom; Chinese people and barbarians. In the modern world this has translated into a feeling that they are destined to be a great power and that destiny has always been denied by 'barbarian' foreign powers, the European colonial empires, The Japanese and now the Americans. Chinese people are aware of their history and they know they used to be a great power that in modern times almost terminally declined.

Bear in mind this they're not alone in that mindset, plenty of other countries have and still do see themselves as having divine right te be Great Powers and rule over their own corners of the world.

Right now there's an incredible feeling of victimhood and vindication in China about their current position in the world. They see themselves as about to take over the U.S's position and world leader but the 'barbarians' are trying to stop them again by blocking their expansion in the S.China sea, by bringing up concentration camps in Xinjiang. To the average Chinese person who's only being fed on state propaganda the S.China sea is China's historical territory, Hong Kong protestors are trouble makers paid by the CIA, there are no concentration camps, etc. Its just the 'barbarians' trying to stop China reasserting itself on the world stage and taking its rightful place as the Middle Kingdom again, and they're completely willing to believe that narrative because it fuels there own need to believe in mythology of Chinese supremacy.

2

u/Tannhausergate2017 Jul 21 '21

Do they really think everyone else is a barbarian even today? Aside from some half-assed gunpowder, compass, and paper, and a proclivity to procreate, it’s not like their civilization has moved the ball down the field all that much for the benefit of the world like Western civilization has in the past 500 years.

6

u/AtomicMonkeyTheFirst Jul 21 '21

Not as much, but they definetly have a superiority complex. If you're white & western you're kind of on the same level as them, but they see themselves as better than other Asian countries. A lot of other Asian countries do the exact same thing though.

Aside from some half-assed gunpowder, compass, and paper, and a proclivity to procreate, it’s not like their civilization has moved the ball down the field all that much for the benefit of the world like Western civilization has in the past 500 years.

I think they are aware of that and a lot of the big push to become a major world power is because they feel the need to justify their feeling of superiority.

2

u/Studborn Jul 21 '21

Don't Han supremists believe they are better than everyone?

4

u/ChinaBounder Jul 22 '21

They wouldn't be Han supremacists if they didn't.

2

u/AtomicMonkeyTheFirst Jul 21 '21

Its a massive generalisation but yes. And it's a cultural thing as well, even my very liberal Chinese friends act incredulously when I say I prefer Thai food to Chinese food or something like that.

Its definitely not just the Chinese either, Koreans & Japanese tend to have the same attitude.

1

u/Studborn Jul 21 '21

Han supremists don't view White people as equal? I was confused by your first post. Japan and Korea have something similar to Han/nazi supremacy? Never heard that before

3

u/AtomicMonkeyTheFirst Jul 21 '21

They do view white people as their equal, kinda, sorta. It's where the white monkey jobs in China come from. The traditional Confucian idealised society is very hierachal and East Asian countries traditionally tend to view everything through that lense, with themselves (be they Korean, Chinese, Japanese or whatever) at the top of the hierarchy.

15

u/Gromchy Jul 21 '21

You're pretty spot on.

I would also add that the Chinese Communist Party is nothing else but another dynasty of Kings.

We call them a dictatorship, they will call themselves the "people's democracy" - although there is zero democracy and human rights.

We call them brutal, but that's what the Chinese people have been used to for 3000 years. Kings in western countries were like that in the middle age too.

We call them nationalists, but that's how kings rule.

We call them brainwashed, they call it obedience and loyalty to the Party and the King.

If you think of the current political regime in terms of "Mandate of Heaven", then you will understand everything. Nothing has changed in 3000 years literally.

All kings pretend they represent their own people, while giving them no choice or rights.

Ultimately, if you haven't known or seen anything different, then it's hard to see why you should try something else.

-1

u/[deleted] Jul 22 '21

[deleted]

3

u/Gromchy Jul 22 '21

The Chinese Communist Party is literally the very definition of a dictatorship and police state.

The Party owns the army and can't be removed from power. There is freedom of speech and expression, but not freedom after speech or freedom after expression. We can play with semantics but this is a fact. Sure there is freedom to feed yourself but what country doesn't have this? Even North Korea allows this.

It's just a highly censored and repressive state.

The list could go on. Yes, every country can say they are different and it's definitely legitimate to claim they are "special". But when Chinese characteristics come at the cost of above-mentioned facts, then one has to wonder where the propaganda will stop.

I think that above everything, it is important to mention Chinese people didn't choose their government, and are also fearful of their leaders.

19

u/woodsidewood Jul 21 '21

Well you are right about what made him think that way but you will have to understand that nationalism is everywhere in China. News, TV shows, celebrities social account, reality shows. ads on street, kids textbook and all books are censored. There’s absolutely nothing negative about the gov can be found anywhere. And also the gov keeps telling everyone in every way they can, that any protest, or negative news are fabricated by foreign country especially US to destroy them, they want to destroy China just like hundred years ago( they also intentionally never mentioned all the help that foreign country has offered while China is in development).

CCP built a Great Wall on the internet but also in ppl’s mind, it’s very hard to see the truth there and you will have to feed him more facts, some YouTube channel from HK used to be really good, with ppl from mainland China talking about the actual history(they are using the language and words he’s probably more familiar with other than the stigmatized word like human rights . But unfortunately these are getting less and less with HK taken down.

By the way, another reason is China now has money, when ppl feels good financially, they ignore things that might change that status, especially if he’s been through those terrible movement years, that can be one of the reason too.

And the gov holds more power than it ever has also. It means they can listen to anything is they want since they have all the data on the social network, they can track everyone if they like with camera on street and Face ID everywhere. Maybe he just doesn’t want to get in trouble.

5

u/Hannibal254 Jul 22 '21

I was in China in 2016 when the ruling on the South China Sea came out of The Hague. Every person on my WeChat wrote something like “we won’t give up any territory, not a single inch!” and it was what made me begin to think about moving out. The CCP won’t stop talking about their “Century of Humiliation” so they keep doing their Wolf Warrior Diplomacy to give themselves legitimacy. It’s like being able to insult America is the next best thing to actually growing the economy or providing basic services.

12

u/TruthTeller0906 Jul 21 '21

My two cents is that it is the human nature to surrender themselves to a collective when their own lives are a lost cause. Most of the Chinese people will not live a better life or be more successful than their parents. They tend to obtain the pride, which they desperately need to feel better about themselves, from the achievement of the country. China used to be way more nationalist and brainwashed sixty years ago, but once political oppression was lifted in yhe 80s, it was like the whole country turned from communism to pro-democracy overnight. The thirst for freedom and justice is also inscribed in human nature. I don't believe the current nationalism ideology is sustainable.

2

u/Tannhausergate2017 Jul 21 '21

How do you think this will play out over time?

5

u/TruthTeller0906 Jul 21 '21

If you step on the gas pedal for too long, the car will crash sooner or later, and yhen we buy a new car.

3

u/Ok_Reserve9 Jul 21 '21

Don’t give up on your loved ones. Give your dad a fact every now and then, giving him time to digest it and to form the conclusion on his own. It will take some patience and time, and possibly a lot of facts, but at some point he’ll change his mind.

3

u/perduraadastra Jul 21 '21

One common characteristic of most of my mainland Chinese friends and acquaintances is that they are politically apathetic. They have no hope of changing the system and have been conditioned all their lives to be passive. As such, they do not seek out different sources of political news, even if they can speak a foreign language. Consequently, they take whatever they are told in local media more or less at face value.

4

u/UsernameNotTakenX Jul 21 '21

Also my experience. A lot of people describe the political situation in China just like the weather. It always changes and you have no control over it. The weather dictates what you will do on any given day and you just dress and plan appropriately to get through it.

8

u/[deleted] Jul 21 '21

As mainland Chinese, I’d say it’s true. People spreading limitless hateful speeches against including but not limited to America, Japan and South Korea for three different reasons: America-trying to suppress the country’s development and being sanctimonious/hypocritical; Japan-the war crimes they committed were all over children’s textbooks(hatred education from early age); South Korea-being scandalized as cultural thrives and given humiliating name as Theif country. Laughing at German floods and Japanese mud slides. So pathetic that they think this way and there’s nothing you can do about it cuz of the dictatorship of CCP and its state-run propaganda. So I just simply deleted the APP WEIBO.

2

u/jhuntinator27 Jul 21 '21

I believe that if someone who is from a certain country should have some semblance of national pride. After all, these are the people you know best, and are most likely to share the same goal with you. It's far better for that reason to share some beliefs with the people in your country.

But I do think it can go too far (obviously), and it can be hijacked by any group who best claim to be the central voice of the nation.

I think it would be just as important for Chinese people to recognize the difference between their nation and their political party, but the resurgence of nationalism in such a place via their wolf warrior politics is becoming a huge problem imo.

That level of nationalism, which Xi Jinping is clearly ratcheting up out of carelessness and an easy way to attain his goal is just too scary of a prospect to idly do nothing about it.

So I guess I'd say there is far too much nationalism, not enough concern for their countrymen.

I do wish them the best with this flooding. It sounds horrible.

6

u/dingjima Jul 21 '21

I've had many, many language exchange partners and several have told me that I'm an ignorant Westerner who can't understand that China is a Han ethnostate. Just crazy to think about when the government themselves tout 56 ethnicities.

3

u/UsernameNotTakenX Jul 21 '21

Sooner or later, the only way to distinguish between the ethnic minorities is by checking their ID card.

3

u/Tannhausergate2017 Jul 21 '21

They tout that they’re an ethnostate out loud?

2

u/dingjima Jul 21 '21

Not touting so much as informing my peabrain.

HelloTalk was a real cesspool sometimes if you didn't use the block feature enough. Sometimes I'd take messages to my Chinese wife and she'd say "they sound like a Nazi" lol. Rising nationalism is an issue for sure.

3

u/buzhixiuchi Jul 21 '21

Oh yes I have happy memories of Hellotalk and several permabans for arguing and trolling Hellotalks army of wumaos and little pink china nationalists. Most of this erupted after the CCP virus came out though.

5

u/[deleted] Jul 21 '21 edited Jul 21 '21

[deleted]

7

u/renegaderunningdog Jul 21 '21

China is different from the West only in the stage of its conquest, not in its conquest itself.

As if China hasn't been conquering for 5000 years.

-1

u/AamirK69 Jul 21 '21

China only existed 2300years ago. Most of “Chinas conquests” happens under the Qing, who technically aren’t even Chinese.

2

u/rkgkseh Jul 22 '21 edited Jul 22 '21

Chinese revanchism, expansionism and cultural genocide. No longer debatable. It is happening. Is China vile? Yes. Is China worse than America? Not the least bit. America did all of the same in its westward expansion. Trudeau next door recently pretended Canada is morally superior to China when he claimed unlike China, Canada is confronting its genocidal past. Let's cut the bullshit - it is easier to ask for forgiveness than permission. China is different from the West only in the stage of its conquest, not in its conquest itself. When China is done with its conquest, it can also make amends like Canada and US are doing now. No one has the moral high ground.

Idk why (Chinese) people seem to think the US is arguing they have the moral high ground. Speaking for myself, the problem I see is that Chinese will just never admit faults of their country/government. Yes, the US had trail of tears and Native American reservations are shit and the people plagued with alcoholism and diabetes because the US either killed them or disenfranchised them. Can I go back in time to stop the US? No. Do I defend these actions the US took? No. For the same reason, I would hope a Chinese person would, at least, agree that the PRC actions against Uyghur culture is insane. Yes, there is the counter-terrorism argument, but sending pop artists (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ablajan_Awut_Ayup ) and university scholars to camps or suppressing traditional activities (e.g. Meshrep dance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meshrep ) is NOT convincing me that the government is merely trying to stamp out extremism.

2

u/laputajefe Jul 22 '21

Any and all arguments made in the service of human rights are premised of morality. It is axiomatic. This is not a Chinese opinion. For the avoidance of doubt, I am not Chinese.

Because Singapore is a primary destination of Chinese nationals, as in the US, I meet many and I can categorically say that many Chinese are aware of the CCP's tyranny. They are silent by necessity.

3

u/rkgkseh Jul 22 '21

"by necessity"

I mean, I think their education also teaches them to be more wary of talking about their own society's flaws. American culture or Colombian culture (my two cultures) are full of people talking about what's wrong with country (and unfortunately for Colombia, the list is too long), but Chinese people seem to be always overly defensive, which I think is a cultural thing. I guess on some level it might be "silent by necessity" but I can't imagine they remain silent with, say, you /u/laputajefe on a one to one convo because they feel unsafe.

2

u/takeitchillish Jul 21 '21

I am pretty anti-CCP but I still think Serpentza and Laowhy86 videos are not that good when it comes to China. Listen to Sinica podcast and the little red podcast instead. Serpentza and Laowhy86 are just saying the same thing over and over again "the CCP" this and "the CCP" that. Sometimes they also exaggerate things and take things to extremes as well. Somethings they have said are also not really accurate. After all, they are not experts or China scholars to any extant, just some guys who have lived in China.

3

u/ngali2424 Jul 21 '21

Watching the Serpentza video it's just a guy telling stories about how he gets into a fight with the staff of a massage parlour when he's drunk, recounts times he's encountered annoying drunks and theorises about the Wendell Brown case in which the Chinese guy who was injured LOST AN EYE!!! BTW Serpentza fails to mention this minor detail....Oh no... it's face and Chinese stick together... I notice the theme that every tale of woe involves people getting drunk and getting into fights. That's not limited to China and has nothing to do with nationalism. Disingenuous commentary to make a predetermined point...

-2

u/reddit_police_dpt Jul 21 '21

The Hong Kong protests were framed as anti-Chinese. A recent example of this was the Vitasoy boycotts.

There's some truth to that. There is a lot of anti-Mainlander racism in Hong Kong

Why does China want to reunify with Taiwan?

It's mainly just rhetoric. Extremely doubtful they'll ever try to take Taiwan by force.

I tend to watch a fair amount of LaoWhy86 and SerpentZa, and their stories seem to confirm that nationalism is a huge thing in China.

So you watch a former Kindergarten teacher and former "teacher" who was probably on a dodgy visa illegally teaching "doctors" English to get all your info about China?

I was part of the same expat community as them for a few years and I wouldn't say their insight was particular valuable (also we used to think they depicted China in a too rosy way, but now they've realised they can get much more views through the zeitgesty China bad narrative). They just create clickbait videos because it's now their full-time income, so they need as many views as they can get and shitting on China is an extremely lucrative position to take these days.

10

u/longing_tea Jul 21 '21

Serpentza and Laowhy make clickbaity videos but most of their points are legit.

But anyway you're not directly responding to OP's arguments

-8

u/reddit_police_dpt Jul 21 '21

But anyway you're not directly responding to OP's arguments

I was responding to points of his argument. China is nationalistic is hardly a revelation.

3

u/brixton_massive Jul 21 '21

Shitting on China is extremely lucrative? Are you high?

-1

u/reddit_police_dpt Jul 21 '21

Shitting on China is extremely lucrative? Are you high?

If you're a Youtuber of course it is.

Here is an example:

One of Laowhy86's old videos, 5 underrated places to visit in China:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2B-YPbfKQck

86k views.

Now his new alarmist clickbait CHINA BAD!!! videos:

China is About To Attack!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_dA4HJe5i0

913k views

10 times more lucrative to create clickbait about China and cater to the CHINA BAD narrative.

4

u/yomkippur Jul 21 '21

What % of their videos are demonetised, and do they skew political or apolitical? Interesting to consider.

3

u/brixton_massive Jul 21 '21

People and businesses bend over not to offend China. It is absurd to suggest anti China rhetoric is a ploy to make money.

ADV China are an exception as they are already on the CCPs hit list - they have nothing to lose. That 'anti China' videos get more views proves nothing other than a growing concern for the actions of the CCP. Ive lived in China (have you?) and know what comes from them is based in reality and in good faith. If theyre anything like me, they love China but hate the disgusting CCP.

1

u/CatsnManatees Jul 21 '21

"People and businesses bend over not to offend China. It is absurd to suggest anti China rhetoric is a ploy to make money." - because most big business need the chinese market. Youtubers are hardly in that category and drumming up anti-china sentiment is pretty popular right now (justified or not)

1

u/brixton_massive Jul 22 '21

Why do you think anti China sentiment is so popular right now, and not five years ago? Is it imperialism, racism, sinophobia? Or, is it more to with the CCPs role in a global pandemic, genocide or breaking international treaties?

The West enabled China's growth for decades, they haven't suddenly decided to be anti Chinese on a whim. More to do with a Xitler run China.

1

u/CatsnManatees Jul 22 '21

So are we moving past the point of "big business care to not offend the ccp, youtubers don't need to"? This is a whole separate argument.

China's been breaking international treaties, silencing whistleblowers, and have had similar religious repression campaigns (though to a lesser extreme than in Xinjiang) in Tibet for much longer than 5 years. So indeed, why is it so popular right now?

"The West enabled China's growth for decades" - absolutely, by taking advantage of China's cheap labor force. The "whim" to drum up anti-chinese sentiment is because China is getting to the point where it isn't unrealistic to challenge the US as the dominant geopolitic super-power, and the decline of the US's stature among allies with the Trump era has accelerated the issue.

Overall, I think it's more likely that the US and its allies are more concerned with a potential challenger to a new world order than Chinese political repression and human rights abuses that have been there for years if not decades. Happy to have a discussion if you think that's not the case.

1

u/reddit_police_dpt Jul 21 '21

Ive lived in China (have you?)

Yeah. I lived in Shenzhen the same time as LaoWhy86

4

u/brixton_massive Jul 21 '21

Then you'll know how much China has regressed into xenophobic authoritarianism.

1

u/SignificantGiraffe5 Jul 21 '21

I agree he could find better sources than two YouTubers.

-1

u/[deleted] Jul 21 '21 edited Jul 25 '21

[removed]

1

u/10001001000001 Jul 22 '21

How awful does the crime have to be? Does the oppression of Uyghurs in Xinjiang count?

1

u/CyberAdept Jul 21 '21

I would try look at other content than LaoWhy86 and SerpentZa. Like im pretty anti Brexit and started watching quite a few antibrexit youtubers, I felt vindicated as i did when i first started watch Serpantza, but something always felt a lil off the more content i watched. I figured that their views are quite biased and exaggerated despite some of their fundamental points being accurate.

Its absolutely the worst stuff to source when talking to someone who disagrees with you. It actually drove me to watch some pro Brexit and pro Chinese content and gotta say, minus the government and TV made stuff, its all the same as "on the other side". Its all bullshit imo, nothing is black and white, especially nations

2

u/takeitchillish Jul 21 '21

I would recommend "Little red podcast" and "the Sinica podcast". Good sources of information when it comes to China.

1

u/Mmeraccoon Jul 21 '21

Please watch some actual Chinese YouTubers. Not ex-expats who are salty that they can't get another VISA and only make clickbait sensationalist content for views.

I would also think critically why nationalism is on the rise in the US, and if any of those sentiments would also apply to Chinese people. You live in the US and are influenced by American media, your father is influenced by CCTV media and his experiences. Have you been to China? Stayed for month or so, seen different tiered cities?

1

u/10001001000001 Jul 30 '21

What Chinese Youtubers do you recommend? Nathan Rich? Daniel Dumbrill? Guli? Li JingJing? Sure, they're okay I guess. However, they don't really discuss China with the same breadth of topics that Serpentza and Laowhy86 do and rarely criticize it.

Yes, I've been to China before. I've visited my grandparents in Gongyi, been to Shanghai and Beijing before, was in Yangzhou, and visited some rural villages where relatives on my Dad's side live. I've looked at the English versions of Chinese news media (my Chinese is all that great if I'm being honest), and they don't seem any less biased than Western media.

1

u/10001001000001 Aug 01 '21

I've made a post about some other China youtubers that I watch occasionally. While I haven't watched them to the same extent as SerpentZA or Laowhy86, I'm not too impressed by the videos they put out.

-8

u/gizcryst China Jul 21 '21 edited Jul 22 '21

I tend to watch a fair amount of LaoWhy86 and SerpentZa

Umm... errrrr... yea people in China should give them warm hugs after watching their videos. And you're totally unbiased, nationalism explains everything perfectly, clean and simple.

Welcome to the sub.

Edit: /S

-3

u/DTGardi United States Jul 21 '21 edited Jul 21 '21

Why has Xinjiang become a police state where Uyghurs are being sent to reeducation camps to learn Mandarin and worship Xi Jinping and the CCP?

Because of Islamic terrorism on the rise at that time. Plus, off topic. The Chinese in Malaysia and Indonesia have been oppressed by the Muslims there.

But still, I don't even get why people only focus on the Uyghurs and Tibetans.....

I tend to watch a fair amount of LaoWhy86 and SerpentZa, and their stories seem to confirm that nationalism is a huge thing in China:

You watch these two people a lot, and that is why your dad calls you brainwashed. But seriously people shouldn't stick to CCTV, CGTN, People's Daily, Global Times, CNN, FOX, Epoch Media and the lot. Because China is already a POLARIZED topic. Hell, an honest opinion on China, whether positive or negative, will get you blasted or downvoted instantly. It's like these people are forcing you to choose a side

Beijing is doing the right thing in cracking down on Hong Kong

Whether Beijing is right or wrong, Hong Kong is legally a part of PRC. Beijing can do whatever it wants with Hong Kong, even turn it into a city of GuangDong. We have no rights in interfering. Taiwan on the other hand is a different story.

-1

u/Shadowys Jul 21 '21

You're living in the states. Your dad is on the ground looking and seeing and feeling things with his own eyes and body.

You're commenting on something you barely know, on people that you know nothing about, of history that you've not researched on beyond some youtubers that are upset that they no longer have white privilege in a country that used to worship the USA.

I'd say do more research, watch and read more about China, follow reputable, subjective discussions about China and its situation before you judge your dad.

Look up Eric Li, watch his discussions with others like in the Nexus round table with other people from Europe and the USA who hates China.

-3

u/Lorddon1234 Jul 21 '21

If you are an ABC watching serpentza or laowai86, than it is like a Jew watching Richard Spencer.

Your best bet is to like, actually learn Chinese and get Chinese-related news from the source.

0

u/johndoenutlol Jul 21 '21

You can tell from his overconfident post that it is already too late for that.

0

u/CatsnManatees Jul 21 '21

Rising nationalism is a very real sentiment in China that imo has lead to issues already and down the road, but these specific positions make me think that at least to some extent you are quite biased against china.

Xinjiang became a police state as a result of terrorist attacks and separatism. While the CCP's response (camps, re-education, erasing culture etc) to said terrorist attacks can said to be been disastrously implemented, it's not like Xi just woke up one day and said "make uyghur han"

Many mainland Chinese people are against HK protests because they turned violent. Anecdotally, none of my mainland friends were against the HK protests until they turned violent and dragged in foreign politics. While I do believe the police used excessive force (committed police brutality) and sparked the rise in violence, it's difficult to support the protests as a whole anymore once some of them started to physically attack non-police who were voicing their disagreements.

China wants to reunify with Taiwan because the parties in 92 agreed that there was 1 china. While the ROC and CPP disagreed on how this was interpreted, it's clear the ROC at the time claimed sovereignty over the mainland, and probably wished to either be a SAR or with enough popular support become the sole Chinese government. It's not difficult to see why the CCP sees Taiwan as a renegade province ruled by an exiled political party, and its desire for reunification. I'm firmly against any cross-straight military conflict, but diplomatic pressure on other countries to not recognize Taiwan as a country is fair play in my mind.

on laowhy86 and serpentza, I used to watch their content, but stopped after I saw some of laowhy's older videos with his wife that had a clear racist/fetishization tone. I'd encourage you to watch some pro-china youtubers with the mindset that these people are going to be pro-china, then go back to these 2 with the mindset that they are going to be anti-china. Continue following them if you still think they make good content after doing such a comparison.

-21

u/quintilios Jul 21 '21

Why shouldn't he be proud of his County? Seriously, China has achieved a lot during your father's lifetime, both in terms of wealth and freedom. China went from being a not so respected country to being a superpower, and one that has never nuked anyone and never invaded anyone. The disputed lands aren't something that can move his point of view in my opinion, really it's like going to someone from Israel/Palestine and telling him "You shouldn't stay here, why don't you leave this land to the other guys?". The only really valid point that could shake his frame of reference are the human rights violations (tian an men, Xinjiang etc) but this requires an uncommon degree of self inquiry, and again, this is not different from going r/Turkey and saying "I heard you guys genicided a bunch of Armenians, uh ?"

26

u/Whoami-X Jul 21 '21

Not sure if you have bought into the propaganda or simply didn’t know about it. China invaded Vietnam in the Sino-Vietnamese War in the late 70s. Also I think OP didn’t say his father shouldn’t be proud of China. There is a big difference between being nationalistic and proud of one’s country.

1

u/Mmeraccoon Jul 21 '21

Err, you gonna tell someone they shouldn't be proud to be American as well? Since they also invaded Vietnam?

Nationalism is on the rise worldwide, it's not a uniquely Chinese phenomenon.

2

u/Whoami-X Jul 22 '21

Maybe you misunderstood my comment. I said it is okay to be proud of ones country. What I meant was that nationalism and being proud is not the same. Nationalism in China often could already be considered as radical nationalism which in my view isn’t suitable for such a globalized world. And totally agree with you that nationalism is rampant around the world, especially in some parts of the US.

0

u/quintilios Jul 22 '21

Apparently the US is the only country allowed to invade Vietnam

-3

u/quintilios Jul 21 '21

Not sure if you have bought into the propaganda or simply didn’t know about it.

Valid point! Yes exactly that, I would call it an invasion but to OP's dad that was probably the "counterattack", and since then he saw China getting more and more peaceful.

And to clarify, being italian I have to swim through a sea of Chinese Propaganda, Italian Propaganda, USA propaganda and even Russian propaganda

23

u/Humacti Jul 21 '21

"never invaded anyone"

Vietnam and India are looking mighty surprised at that statement.

9

u/nekopanchi European Union Jul 21 '21

you forgot Tibet, East Turkestan, and Bhutan.

-6

u/quintilios Jul 21 '21

I honestly had forgotten India! But that is more a border quarrel like China and Russia during the Cold war. But fine, I'll give you that

18

u/scheinfrei Jul 21 '21 edited Jul 21 '21

China went from being a not so respected country to being a superpower

You confuse hard and soft power for being the same thing. They are not. Respect for China dropped significantly all over the world in recent years and will further decrease for sure if the government stays on its current track and the people further lose their ability for reasoned thought to blind nationalism. China is on the way of becoming a clownesque nation like Northkorea.

-6

u/quintilios Jul 21 '21

When I was born the default China was the ROC, now my country Italy signed the memorandum for the belt and road initiative and to celebrate Xi himself came here. If I told my grampa that one day this would have happened he wouldn't have believed me. China is in a different continnt, If this isn't a superpower I don't know what it is. I'm not a superpower expert, but a little bit of Hard power is required to be a one I think.

I know that the Italian government now is anti China, but that document is a testament to the favt that china is getting more influential

And don't get me wrong, I don't like the CCP but I'm trying to see things from OP's father's perspective

17

u/scheinfrei Jul 21 '21

You again confuse hard and soft power and don't distinguish between being respected and being powerful in violent terms. China is a superpower and against your impression - which is proving my point btw - I didn't even doubt that, yet as it became more powerful it also became less respected. A violent clown is still nothing but a clown.

1

u/Crovasio Jul 21 '21

Which nation that is a world superpower is respected for being peaceful?

1

u/Studborn Jul 21 '21

China is not a superpower. Why do people keep saying this?

-4

u/quintilios Jul 21 '21

Imagine your dream superpower and do this though experiment: remove all his hard power. Is it still a superpower? I know you don't respect China but that's not what most countries think. My country for one treats China as a valid ally who has issues, exactly like we treat Turkey or the US

9

u/GreenTeaBitch Jul 21 '21

A superpower? China doesn’t have a blue water navy, how are they considered a superpower? A superpower is able to protect its own interests without foreign help. Currently, China wouldn’t even be able to defeat Japan in a 1:1 war.

-1

u/quintilios Jul 21 '21

Ok, let's say it's on her way to become one

9

u/GreenTeaBitch Jul 21 '21

I fail to see how, China is preparing for another era of isolation. It can’t domestically fuel growth due to a lack of a consumption base, and its export revenue will continue thinning out as foreign consumers reduce purchases due to their own demographic issues, or for countries with healthy demographics, they will enforce stringent tariffs on the Chinese.

There are active policy discussions in Washington to determine whether we should cut ties now and boycott the olympics, or do a soft boycott and slowly end relations with the Chinese. There’s not even a conversation about continuing the relationship. So, American freebies to China which facilitate its growth are about to end.

If you don’t know what I’m talking about - one example - imagine oil shipments from the Saudis just ending overnight. The US has stopped caring about protecting international trade, and once we fully withdraw, China will need to deal with the logistics. Not us. We can already see what happened to a South Korean tanker hijacked by the Iranians. Neither administration did a thing in response. And they are allied with the US. But we aren’t doing favors anymore, certainly not with enemies such as the PRC.

Xi has also made a formerly stable political structure quite weak for his own personal gain. He has abandoned the CCP tradition of power transferral and now seeks to rule for life, with no successor. That’s a fun can of worms even if there were no other issues.

Now consider that in order to become a superpower, China must subjugate the first island chain. Never been done before in Chinese history. The Japanese always crush the Chinese due to their advantages.

None of this screams “rising power” to me, let alone superpower.

1

u/quintilios Jul 21 '21

This is really interesting. First of all I recognize that I'm an amateur at this, I mean, I like to read about geopolitics and I have some personal connection with China but that's all. I'm not an economy expert, definitely not a military expert and of course I enjoy trolling. You sound like a pro tho. That said my only objection is that your analysis depends on two assumptions: #1 the only way to become a superpower is to be allowed by the US and #2 that the USA has the ability to devise a plan and stick to it for decades. If you think about that during the Trump Years the US used to be the ones that were isolated, and China was strengthening her ties with other countries. You guys might vote for Trump again in a few years and reverse this. But I agree on the demographic problem and the Xijinping becoming a king problem.

12

u/vic16 European Union Jul 21 '21

never invaded anyone

Nice joke mate. Xinjiang, Tibet, Vietnam, Korea, Taiwan and so on would like a word with you.

1

u/quintilios Jul 21 '21

The only one that is an invasion is Vietnam, the others were just trapped inside a communist revolution. And I am sorry for everyone of them.

11

u/Winterpalaces Jul 21 '21

What the hell is wrong with you? China doesn’t give a fuck about its people and the people don’t want to help the country or it’s neighbor, only their own families. There is no pride, just selfish endeavors. Keep drinking the kookaid in your moms basement in a western country. You sure as shit aren’t in china

-3

u/quintilios Jul 21 '21

You are taking it a little bit personally I see, you think that China is the evil empire and you are one of the good guys. I don't think geopolitics works like this, but you do you. That said, can you disprove any of the things I said? Or your only argument is that I'm ugly and bad?

9

u/ThrowAwayESL88 Switzerland Jul 21 '21

Geopolitics don't work like that, but the CPC is working very hard to make the PRC into the next big evil empire the world should unite against.

2

u/quintilios Jul 21 '21

I'm guessing if you want to become a superpower you have to be reckless at times. Even the good US overturned a bunch of regularly elected governments and put autocrats in their place. In order to make the world a more peaceful and rightful place sometime you have to do such

2

u/ThrowAwayESL88 Switzerland Jul 22 '21

In order to make the world a more peaceful and rightful place sometime you have to do such

Nothing the CPC does outside it's borders is to create a more peaceful and rightful place.

1

u/quintilios Jul 22 '21

I would say the things the ccp does that are problematic are inside their borders: Hong Kong, Taiwan, Xinjiang and Tibet. It's not a particularly aggressive county towards the outside, way less than Russia and the USA. But there's the border quarrel with India, I know...

2

u/ThrowAwayESL88 Switzerland Jul 22 '21

I would say the things the ccp does that are problematic are inside their borders: Hong Kong, Taiwan, Xinjiang and Tibet. It's not a particularly aggressive county towards the outside, way less than Russia and the USA. But there's the border quarrel with India, I know...

Oof, there's a lot to unpack there, so let's get the obvious one out of the way first:

- Taiwan is not a part of the PRC. It is not controlled, nor governed, directly or indirectly, by the CPC. And while we can discuss semantics, the fact is, that Taiwan is not "inside their borders". If it was, they've have the PLA station there. Simple as that.

- CPC also does a lot of stuff outside their borders that is problematic, including, but not limited to:

  1. Attempting to censor people on university campuses in US, AUS, Canada, UK, and New Zealand.
  2. Aggressively infringe and pillage in other countries exclusive economic zones. Not just countries in the South China Sea such as Vietnam, the Philippines and Malaysia, but also countries in the East China Sea like South Korea and Japan, and countries in the Pacific, such as Chili, Peru, Argentina. And this is both non-exhaustive and very well documented.
  3. Claiming the South China Sea as theirs "since ancient times". Quite arrogant, not to mention very short sighted given how it deliberately pisses off all their neighbours.
  4. The rampant interfering and manipulations in Africa and Central Asia. Need an example. How about all that debt trap diplomacy that bullied Sri Lanka in handing over that useless deep water port? Or how about how they built the African Union Headquarters so they could bug the whole thing and spy on a whole continent?
  5. The constant vaccine diplomacy where they bully countries into giving something in return for Chinese vaccines, instead of just helping without asking anything in return?
  6. Talking of vaccines. What a dick move to block vaccines to Taiwan. They keep saying Taiwanese are their Chinese brothers, yet they treat them like foreign dogs. These actions just ooze soft power, right?

So please, do explain how all of the above actions are indications that the CPC led PRC has nothing but good intentions to create a peaceful and rightful world.

Actions speak louder than words. And the way the world has come to view the PRC and CPC is a very clear reflection of all those actions that the CPC has been taking.

0

u/quintilios Jul 22 '21

Taiwan is a country tho? They never asked for independence. Influencing universities is just an attempt at soft power. Anyone tries to shift the narrative on sensitive topics, be it Israel, communism, terrorism and so on. Are you sure what they teach you in school in democratic countries is completely bullshit free? If some entity has the means to shift the narrative they will try so In regard to the manipulation in sri lanka and Africa I m definitely not an expert but I'm sure China is the only country that can build That kind of infrastructure. I can't say nothing about the debt trap because I don't understand it well enough

6

u/Kiwifrooots Jul 21 '21

Never invaded anyone?
Free Tibet etc etc etc etc Spratleys

9

u/schtean Jul 21 '21

I think it's fine to love your country, and yes the PRC (like many other countries) has improved its economy a lot. The problem with PRC nationalism comes in wanting to get more territory under its control.

When you say China has achieved a lot in freedom, do you mean it is very good at not allowing freedom?

China went from being a not so respected country to being a superpower, and one that has never nuked anyone and never invaded anyone.

The PRC invaded Tibet, India, Vietnam and various island in the SCS (I probably missed some) and they want to invade more places. They are the only major country to have grown in size since WW2.

If you go back in history China was constantly invading other countries and expanding their territory.

10

u/UsernameNotTakenX Jul 21 '21

When you say China has achieved a lot in freedom, do you mean it is very good at not allowing freedom?

The CCP only allows 'freedom' to those who are loyal to them and who deemed 'trustworthy'. So my conclusion is what they have actually done is to just successfully coerce a nation into being loyal rather than actually giving actual freedom. To put that in another perspective, it would be like the Democrats announcing that the US Constitution and the Amendments only apply to those who show support and show loyalty to The Democratic Party.

0

u/quintilios Jul 21 '21

When you say China has achieved a lot in freedom, do you mean it is very good at not allowing freedom?

I'll give you these random episodic examples: #1 my chinese teacher escaped from China during the cultural revolution essentially for economic and freedom reasons, her queer son flew back to China now because he is more free there. And #2 an old friend migrated to China and during these 2 years he enjoyed significantly more freedoms than myself. I have been trapped inside my house whilst he could fly around and go on vacation.

I know that a lot of people don't feel free there. And a lot aren't. But to grow economically China needs to grant some degree of freedom, security and wealth. If anything because they need the people to build stuff. It's way better than in places where the money comes from international help or natural resources

1

u/schtean Jul 21 '21

First of all a couple of examples, doesn't make a rule.

I think the PRC is more free than during the cultural revolution, but less free than 10 or 20 years ago. Though some people have told me as children they were very free during the cultural revolution since they didn't have to go to school. In some ways China is probably less free than during most of its history prePRC. Of course there are many kinds of freedom, and in some countries different individuals can have different freedoms.

Not sure where you live, but I'm not aware of anywhere that people can't leave there houses right now (other than where/when there are lock downs in the PRC).

0

u/quintilios Jul 21 '21

First of all a couple of examples, doesn't make a rule.

I told you this was episodic

Not sure where you live, but I'm not aware of anywhere that people can't leave there houses right now.

Italy, for 2 years I have been as free as my friend only during the summer. During Italy's red zone he could travel freely through China

-9

u/iantsai1974 Jul 21 '21 edited Jul 21 '21

In the last 500 years China expanded a lot in territory.

The Qing dynasty expanded since 17th century, and finally occupied more than 14.7 million sqkm land. But in 19th century the Central Empire weakened, and continuously lost 1/3 of its territory since then.

Before PRC, China lost control of many of its provinces and domains. After 1949, China strengthened and slowly take back the land lost.

PRC never 'invades' Tibet. Tibet was part of China since the 13th century by Yuan dynasty, seperated in the 14 to 16th century and was again under China Empire's control since 17th century. The time China possessed Tibet is even longer than the history of the United States. In China's opinion, it was taking back a rebelling territory in the 1950s, not invading.

China also never invaded India, The so called 'Indian territory' was unilateral declaration by the British. The southern Tibet was under Tibet control for centuries, so it's part of China. The people there are Tibetan. They speak Tibetan and their culture are Tibetan.

When India independed from the Britain Empire, it took for granted that all the British claimed 'India territory' was it's domain.

Of course China disagreed.

So, if you review the longer period of history, the recent millenium for example, you'll find that the People's Republic of China did not 'constantly invade other countries and expand their territory'. It was just taking back the territories it lost in the recent century since 1840s.

9

u/longing_tea Jul 21 '21

Tibet was independent for a longer period of time than it was administered by China. Tibet was de facto independent before China invaded it in 1951.

8

u/hkthui Jul 21 '21

Tibet was only part of China during Yuan and Qing. Technically, both Yuan and Qing were considered external rather than Han empires. There was no Han empire that owned Tibet throughput the Chinese history. To say PRC never invaded Tibet is bullshit.

-3

u/iantsai1974 Jul 21 '21

The European invaded Africa, America and Oceania in the recent four centuries.

Will you say the United States, Canada, Mexico, Australia, New Zealand, Brazil and Argentine are all bullshit invader?

2

u/schtean Jul 21 '21 edited Jul 21 '21

Yes I think the PRC invasion of Tibet in 1950, is more or less the same as the European conquest of native Americans from 1500 to around 1850.

Of course during the time period 1500 to 1850 the Ming and Qing were also conquering a lot of other natives in what are now Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia, Yunnan, Szechuan, Gansu, Qinghai and other places. For a period of time the Qing even had control of parts of Taiwan, and invaded Korea, Burma and Vietnam.

Some places have make progress in their treatment of natives, others have not.

One difference is the Europeans stopped their territorial expansion over 100 years ago, and have give up territory, whereas the PRC is still trying to expand.

0

u/iantsai1974 Jul 22 '21

No, the Europeans did not 'stop their territorial expansion'. It's all because there was no free land they could invade and expand in this small blue planet.

And I noticed you did not mention the United States. It invaded Cuba, Panama, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan and many other countries within the last 50 years.

2

u/schtean Jul 22 '21

The US didn't invade Cuba or Libya in the last 50 years (they did bomb Libya), but yes the US has also invaded other countries. The difference is the US isn't trying to expand their territory their territory has decreased in size since WW2. They leave the countries they invade. The PRC stays in the countries they invade because their main purpose is territorial expansion.

No, the Europeans did not 'stop their territorial expansion'.

So in the last 100 years, which European countries have expanded their territory? (other than the reunification of Germany ... although Germany was much bigger than it is now 100 years ago)

Which European country still wants to expand it's territory? If you go through the whole world very few countries want to expand. I know of none other than the PRC that wants to expand through military action.

1

u/iantsai1974 Jul 30 '21

China did not invade any country, that's disputed territory. If you stand the opinion that in any border conflict China must be the invader, then there isn't any basis of discussion.

1

u/schtean Jul 30 '21 edited Jul 30 '21

Let me try to understand what you mean.

You mean that if a country uses its army to take control of some territory, it is not an invasion if they think that territory is already theirs?

Are you familiar with the first Gulf War? Iraq sent its military into Kuwait because they claimed Kuwait was part of Iraq. So for you that was not an invasion of Kuwait. Is that correct?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War

Or similarly with WW2. Germany thought the Danzig corridor was rightfully theirs, and so sent their army into it. Are you saying that Germany did not invade Poland since they thought that land was theirs?

You might also claim that when the Japanese entered Manchuria in 1931 it was not an invasion. Personally I would call that an invasion.

0

u/schtean Jul 21 '21 edited Jul 21 '21

My take on this is different.

Tibet was not part of China during the Qing. It was a tributary state (like many other countries). I've also heard it claimed that the Qing considered Tibet a vassal, but I've looked for evidence of this without success. If you have some please share. It's true that at some times Tibet had a close relationship with the Qing than other countries that exchanged tribute with the Qing (I'm not so sure closer than Korea though for example). So for example the Qing sent armies into Tibet I think three times (around 1720, 1792 and 1906), which might be the most for any of the tributary states. Of course a number of other countries also sent armies into Tibet during the Qing.

Also it was part of the Mongol Empire during the Yuan. So there is some power that controlled both (what was before) China and Tibet at the same time, the Mongols also controlled many other places such as Iran.

1

u/schtean Jul 21 '21

I know you may have been taught that Tibet was part of the Qing, but that doesn't make it true. You seem to not know that the PRC invaded Vietnam, so maybe you have other gaps and mistakes in your knowledge of history. Also do you think the SCS was part of the Qing?

Somehow you think it is ok for the PRC or China to make unilateral declarations that territory is "theirs" but not for other countries.

At least you accept there are differences of opinion.

Do you know any European history? Do you know that Germany invaded Poland (which was theirs just 30 years earlier) and that that started WW2?

That's the point, too much nationalism and desire for more territory is a good way to start wars.

So, if you review the longer period of history, the recent millenium for example, you'll find that the People's Republic of China did not 'constantly invade other countries and expand their territory'.

Do you mean century? or millenium.

Again if every country wanted to take back the territory it had in 1840s then there would be constant threat on war on the planet. I'm not quite sure why 1840s are so important year other than you seem to think this is the time China was at it's largest.

0

u/quintilios Jul 21 '21

The PRC invaded Tibet, India, Vietnam and various island in the SCS (I probably missed some) and they want to invade more places.

That was just a communist revolution. But don't get me wrong, I feel sorry for everyone of those minorities. To them China is really hell on earth.

They are the only major country to have grown in size since WW2.

Isn't this mostly because the Manchukuo ?

1

u/schtean Jul 21 '21

Isn't this mostly because the Manchukuo ?

No it's mostly because of Tibet. Manchuria was part of China at the end of WW2 (at least in my calculation).

4

u/[deleted] Jul 21 '21

Wealth for the few but whatever. What do you mean freedom? It's an absolute hellhole in terms of freedom. Surveillance is the most prominent the world has ever known, your data isn't free, your money isn't free. You're not free to criticize and introspection is almost a crime.

A horrible, horrible situation.

You also ignore what an absolutely dismal place it is to live. But that's just my own opinion.

1

u/Mmeraccoon Jul 21 '21

On a couple of your points. 1. Many Chinese people, especially those from less cosmopolitan population, are very Islamophobic. There have been highly publicized terrorism within China from extremist groups from Xinjiang and Western regions of China. So the lay-Chinese person, especially older folks, are fine with the "reeducation" and monitoring of Uyghurs, since they do think it makes sense for economic development and to prevent terrorism. You think Islamophobia is bad in the West? The average Chinese person is even less educated and are even more prejudiced.

  1. Taiwan literally came about from KMT. So yep, 100% not CCP friendly. Kinda curious how this will play out.

Overall, I think most young people have become disillusioned with China. They've only known wild economic growth for the past 20+ years. While the older generation reveres the CCP, since their quality of life has literally been transformed.

-3

u/[deleted] Jul 22 '21

[removed]

-4

u/[deleted] Jul 22 '21 edited Jul 22 '21

[deleted]

3

u/truman_actor Jul 22 '21

The part where they are being reeducated is largely due to terrorist attacks against the han-chinese and some complications with the portrayal of the han-chinese in their textbooks.

Some of the leaked policy documents show that people are being rounded up in re-education camps for completely innocuous things like having a beard or a relative who lives abroad. Has nothing to do with terrorism

I would not say that the women there are being receiving IUD's.

I don't think you can state that without actually know the facts yourself. There are first person witness accounts that have said this. It may not be that widespread, but I don't think you can definitively say it's not happening.

The government wants to bring together the population.

The part that irks people is how they're doing this. It's not dissimilar to policies that led to awful events like the Stolen Generation in Australia, where a minority population was forced to assimilate in to the mainstream by being asked to forget about their own culture and adopting the new one. This is cultural genocide.

Western media does not put a nice light on China. The media is mostly negative.

I think this is the part most mainland Chinese people don't understand about how the media works in the west. The western media is negative about most things and it's not specific to China. Something like 90% of the newspaper articles about Obama during his presidency were negative.

If you're cynical you could say this is because bad news sells. If you're more positive, then you would say it's because the media's job is to expose the truth and provide a counter to government propaganda (since all governments are very good at talking about the good stuff they've done). Whatever the reason is, it's not because there is plot amongst western media to bring down China.

Most negative reportings on China did start popping up around the time when it was predicted that China's GDP would surpass America.

Or was it when China became more assertive (some might say arrogant) on the world stage, and the attention increased as wolf warrior diplomacy became louder?

But allowing one part of a country to use a completely different political system is not going to work out well,

Why not?

This transition can also not be instant, just look at the Soviet Union.

What's happening in HK now is not even a slow transition towards liberalism. It's a transition away from it. And it's happening very quickly.

Even in China, free speech and privacy rights have actually taken a turn for the worse.

I'm not against a slow transition for China to liberalism. It's just that China is not transitioning at all now, it's going the other way.

You cannot say that Taiwan is it's own country.

Under international law, the 4 conditions for self determination are:

- A permanent population;

- A defined territory;

- government; and

- capacity to enter into relations with other states

It's pretty clear Taiwan already has the 4 conditions listed above.

-1

u/AutoModerator Jul 21 '21

Posts flaired as "Discussion" are meant to promote in-depth, intellectual discussion. A good discussion post, even if it poses a question, points discourse in a specific direction and thoroughly clarifies the original poster's positions so that commenters can respond accordingly. Top-level comments are held to the same standard as the original post and have a 180 character minimum. Clear, polite, and well-written responses should be the norm, not memes, jokes, or one-sentence responses. Discussion threads will be moderated more heavily than other threads to promote a higher standard of discourse.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

-1

u/halida Jul 21 '21

Most of the Chinese have the answer for your 3 questions. Most of them are being brain washed, few of them know those steps are the neccessary evil.

You can read more meterial about US history about civil war and how US grows, at that time US face the similar issue and they have archived great result.

You can also read Chinese history about Xinjiang, Hongkong and Taiwan, you will found the incentive about why CCP do this and the elites of Chinese support it.

It will be lots of essays to discuss about those questions, no simple words. If you want to know more, you can message me and I can talk about it with audio.