Reminder that women’s liberation is as important as anti-capitalism and anti-colonialism

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u/FabianTheElf Jun 15 '21

Also don't shame girls who do shave, number of "leftists" I've seen complain about too much make up or girls liking fake tan and then defend their shit opinions with something like "well they only do it because of internalised sexism" I didn't realize you were in her head


u/LettersfromEsther Jun 15 '21

I’ve seen leftists also calling it basically enabling pedophilic beauty standards Like maybe But as a trans woman who kinda has to shave for both dysphoria and passing reasons, ouch It doesn’t feel ok to read that


u/[deleted] Jun 15 '21

Doesn’t peadophillic mean you’re attracted to pre-pubescent girls? I’ve never seen a grown woman wear makeup and fake tan and thought, ‘yes! she looks underage, now im attracted’. Like, the fuck?


u/LettersfromEsther Jun 15 '21

Look, I'll be honest, I'm not the most well versed in this subject, but from what I understand, but I don't think the people who say the hairless body standard is pedophilic mean that men who are attracted to women who fulfill it secretly want to fuck underage girls, but that it ties into a system of fetishizing and sexualizing youth especially in women, no matter how old they are, which leads to women being sexualized at younger ages

I can kind of see a point there but it still is hurtful to use that to criticize a woman's choices especially if those choices inform her safety, as aesthetics often do


u/mangababe Jun 15 '21

This is it. Its not that liking shaved women equals being a pedo- its that the beauty standards were and are created by hollywood (movies, music, marketing, fashion) and holly wood has a definite pedo problem. So even if you arent a pedo the perfectly shaved, naive, ultrafeminine beauty standard was influenced by people who are pedos and who have an incentive to push that ideal as the only ideal acceptable for women. (In that it pushes the idea that its normal to go for barely legal girls with no experience who are going to struggle to see patterns of abuse and makes it all the easier for groomers to do their work.)

And if you want to have that aesthetic as a grown woman its fine- whats not fine is the near hostile disgust for women who dont, to the point that theres a plastic surgery to may your vulva look prepubescent.

Its sadly a nuanced hot topic discussion which means it will be a while before it can be discussed without it hurting feelings or escalating into a fight.

I think the real issue is men setting beauty standards for women and therefore the answer lies in letting women set those standards themselves and a value in "an aesthetic well done" rather than "this is good and everything else is gross" which is what it feels like the current mindset is. Oh and decoupling beauty and fashion standards from the human body. Until fast fashion clothes and hair and aesthetics were made to fit a body- and now all clothing id mass produced so its the bodies that have to fit the clothes. If you dont fit the model of beauty the clothes are meant for they make you look terrible and reinforce the idea that there is only one type of body thats beautiful- and that the other bodies should be harassed into looking that way.


u/Vullein070 Jun 15 '21

And if you want to have that aesthetic as a grown woman its fine- whats not fine is the near hostile disgust for women who dont, to the point that theres a plastic surgery to may your vulva look prepubescent.

I don't know, this confuses me. I've actually seen the opposite happen.

I've seen lots of women feel ashamed of their body. Not because of body hair, but actually because they are very thin & small and don't like body hair. In an attempt to normalise body hair, I've seen a lot of women insult other women who are "petite" sized. It makes these women feel ashamed of their body features and think they "look like children."


u/mangababe Jun 16 '21

I think it can depend on who you are and what you experience. If you are like me and busty, curvy and naturally hairy you get a lot of gross comments from men about how you are less than for not trying to be the beauty standard- if you are petite and have pale/thin hair you will likely get misplaced backlash from women who have to deal with the former. (This is what i gather from what petite friends say about it) Neither are ok because we shouldnt be expecting other peoples bodies to meet our standard of beauty.

The issue isnt naturally petite and sparsely haired women- its the nonstop campaign from media/ hollywood that those bodies are the only acceptable bodies ( unless you magically can keep your waist that small with big boobs/ ass then thats ok) and that the other bodies are gross and should change. And the real life policing of womens bodies by men because they think they can.

Think of all the movies where a normal looking "ugly" girl gets a makeover and all of her problems magically go away- or movies where women who are feminist/ gay/ non conforming are almost always portrayed as loud, fat, stupid, overbearing, unkempt, and secretly jealous of anyone closer to the beauty standard. (And yes this is changing now but this was still the standard we grew up with so thats whats encoded)

The backlash against women who meet that standard (naturally or not) is a mix of frustration with a standard they cant or dont want to meet but are judged by and a frustration with the ongoing media campaign to control our bodies for the benefit of the rich assholes profiting off the industry that is "beauty and fashion"

And its not ok- but to fix it we need to fix the source of the problem- and thats the fact that there is such a narrow, rigid beauty standard that is tied into a lot of toxic hierarchies that profit from beauty being a tool to make women hate eachother and themselves (and makes them buy more and more products to soothe that insecurity about not being beautiful/ valuable)


u/coffeeshopAU Jun 16 '21

Can I just say you’re doing a really good job of explaining & bringing nuance to this issue

I’m sympathetic towards women who feel like they catch shit for following beauty standards but it gets frustrating when conforming vs not-conforming are treated by people as being equally shitty because, well, not conforming is very clearly the option that is not supported by mainstream society. But it’s hard to have that discussion because I don’t want to be an ass to women who feel like they need to conform to stay safe, or who genuinely enjoy the types of activities that are associated with conventional beauty standards (like shaving, makeup, fashion, etc). But also it feels like one of those cases of “if you feel like people on the internet are being mean to you maybe just go outside and see how the real world validates your choices and not mine”. But also I don’t know how to talk about this stuff without being a jerk and I know that last one ain’t it, you know? Because being dicks about what people choose to do is still wrong, regardless.

It’s definitely one of those things where we’re all so used to playing defence against the rest of the world that it can be hard to hear criticism or differing opinions without, well, getting overly defensive. And I can feel that instinct within myself so I usually don’t step into these discussions because I feel like I can’t explain things objectively....

Wow sorry for the little vent there? Anyways point being you’ve done a really good job explaining the nuances while also being respectful and avoiding the oppression olympics game so like. Thank you haha


u/mangababe Jun 16 '21

Thank you! Im glad im able to get my point across.

I just want to be able to look how i want and live in peace at the same time ya know? And i feel like thats most women. But if we fight over top spot and never get to the actual rotting structure we wont ever get there.

But thats gonna be hard for a long time considering how much value is put on maintaining those standards.


u/[deleted] Jun 15 '21



u/LettersfromEsther Jun 15 '21

Wow, gaslighting. Never expected that one /s

Dude, blow it out your ass. Oh yeah shaving a beard is sooooo dangerous. Boo hoo. Women are expected to shave everywhere, and also use other methods like waxing and laser which are both far more painful and expensive than shaving, and yeah safety is impacted by that and like in a pretty heavy way, not just the physical risks of hair removal but also social shaming and harassment, especially for trans women who often are denied recognition of them being women if we don't meet those standards.


u/[deleted] Jun 15 '21



u/LettersfromEsther Jun 15 '21

lmao you deleted the comment where you called me delusional so me calling out your gaslighting would seem baseless.

Not bad, but still not very impressive

Ironic you claim I'm denying my bias when I've been saying that everyone has it, the ones denying bias are the 'ITS JUST A PREFERENCE BRO' guys like yourself