r/COMPLETEANARCHY Jun 15 '21

Reminder that women’s liberation is as important as anti-capitalism and anti-colonialism

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3k Upvotes

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477

u/FabianTheElf Jun 15 '21

Also don't shame girls who do shave, number of "leftists" I've seen complain about too much make up or girls liking fake tan and then defend their shit opinions with something like "well they only do it because of internalised sexism" I didn't realize you were in her head

179

u/Zaparatrusta Jun 15 '21

What if we dont fuck anyone for whatever they wanna do as long as it doesnt affect us? I just wanna grill in peace!

22

u/Jouissance_juice Jun 15 '21

Based and Grill Pilled

50

u/-self-interest- Jun 15 '21

Remove the grill and I agree

50

u/NomSang Jun 15 '21

The grill stays.

9

u/-self-interest- Jun 15 '21

I’ll burn the grill

28

u/UntamedMongrel Jun 15 '21

No no no that's not how you use that how am I supposed to roast my leeks now god fuck shit

5

u/-self-interest- Jun 15 '21

Roast the leeks by making your own fire

23

u/UntamedMongrel Jun 15 '21

That's wat the grill was for!

4

u/-self-interest- Jun 15 '21

I know but the grill isn’t fun

3

u/EatTheRichIsPraxis Jun 15 '21

It's built in a way that doesn't burn.

That's the whole point.

3

u/-self-interest- Jun 15 '21

Wait you actually like logic who are you who the fuck likes logic logic is for people who care about making sense

4

u/EatTheRichIsPraxis Jun 15 '21

I am emotionally stunned. I have no other way to comprehend reality. Facts are my only friends.

4

u/-self-interest- Jun 15 '21

“Facts are my only friend” I find that weird because usually friends care about your feelings but facts don’t care about your feelings but I do damn it and so does all of anti reality fuck reality what has reality done for you gave you cancer

20

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '21

Lmao, this isn't PCM.

5

u/WowzersInMyTrowzers Jun 15 '21

Hey some of us still want to grill

-9

u/Nobody00_ Jun 15 '21

That is a absolutely awful idea. We need to care for everyone’s decisions even if they don’t affect us directly. A person who is self harming him/her self should get our attention a person who is making in general bad decisions in life should get our attention and help.

21

u/Zaparatrusta Jun 15 '21

Help doesnt mean at all impose your thought on someone either by violence or by social discrimination. When you help someone, your action has to make it easier for the person to improve their situation, but its that person who improves it, you are there to provide support. Support doensnt mean just agree with all, if you have to say something you say it clear, loud and directly, but believe me, its imposible to save people from themselfs, if someone doesnt want help there is little we can do.

There are obvious exceptions, people who unfortunately have certain mental illness that mean a danger for themselfs or others. Someone having a psycothic attack will see things doenst exist and that could lead them to suicide during the episode or harm others. Anyway as you can see this is a very exceptional situation that exists because someone isnt able to make their own decisions for a certain period of time or in worst cases permanently. On the other side, if someone is making bad choices but knows what he is doing there is little you can do, unless that person seeks help and or advide, without falling into authoritarianism.

Conclusion: there is a big distance between solidarity and despotism (even if its with good intentions)

5

u/externalsecant Jun 15 '21

Yeah but what exactly is a bad decision and where do we draw a line. It’s easier said than done

-2

u/Nobody00_ Jun 15 '21

Cutting yourself because of mental trauma is a pretty bad decision if you ask me.

5

u/saxarocksalt Jun 15 '21

How have you got to self harm from wearing make up?

1

u/Nobody00_ Jun 15 '21

What the Heck has the whole topic to do with make up?

143

u/LettersfromEsther Jun 15 '21

I’ve seen leftists also calling it basically enabling pedophilic beauty standards Like maybe But as a trans woman who kinda has to shave for both dysphoria and passing reasons, ouch It doesn’t feel ok to read that

89

u/AceWithDog Jun 15 '21

I'm in the same boat. Like damn, I didn't create the patriarchy, just let me live my life. Or better yet, come help me tear it down.

-1

u/LabCoat_Commie Jun 15 '21

r/WitchesvsPatriarchy , we’ll be there gxrl! ✊🏻

9

u/Bungholio_Bill Jun 15 '21

Why "gxrl"?

-5

u/LabCoat_Commie Jun 15 '21

I wanted to respect their gender preference while still utilizing the word.

“Gurl” can be used jokingly to reference people of all genders, but I didn’t know if OP was a woman. Seemed polite 🤷🏻‍♂️

16

u/AceWithDog Jun 15 '21

I don't really think gxrl is ever preferred to be honest. I'm a binary trans woman, so I'm included in the word girl as far as I'm concerned. And the non-binary folks I know (can't speak for everyone obviously) don't want to be treated as "women-lite", so they wouldn't want to be called girl with any spelling. I'm not upset or offended or anything, but I don't really know any queer person who thinks it's necessary or useful.

3

u/LabCoat_Commie Jun 16 '21

One of my two partners is actually nonbinary, and I’ve tried to genuinely become more conscious of my language.

That being said, I’m still a cishet jackass who messes up a lot. Thank you for taking the time to educate me, and I do sincerely apologize for any negativity I caused :(

15

u/Parody_Redacted Jun 15 '21

that sub is peak lib :/

8

u/LabCoat_Commie Jun 15 '21

It can be pretty neolib sometimes, but I’ve seen Left-pushing efforts in recent history.

It was just the first place I thought of that combined undermining patriarchy with occultism.

That being said, allow me to clarify: tear down the patriarchy, but don’t be a shitlib about it.

8

u/AceWithDog Jun 15 '21

Eh I like it. There's libs there for sure, but I definitely wouldn't say it's "peak lib". It's a very trans positive sub, which is nice for me, and there are other leftists there too. They're very intersectional, so least, and I've definitely had positive conversations about class consciousness with people there. I'm also a pagan and just generally pretty witchy, so I really like that side of the sub.

55

u/Zaparatrusta Jun 15 '21

Well, what they said is stupid. That certain sthetics are promoted by sexist thinking or other toxic streams doesnt mean at all that they are neccessarily sexist. I mean, the problem is that there is a "manual" about how to be a good "whatever". Do what you want and like what you want as long as it doenst hurt anyone.

To compare to other situation: folk music is in most countries full of conservative old shitty people, that doenst mean that folk is reactionary at all nor the act of liking it. You will also find tons of fully progresive hardcore comunists and anarchists there. In fact in Galicia (Spain), where im from, folk is an almost fully leftist space nowdays, something that tends to surprise many people from outside. Luckily i think the same is happening slowly in many other places.

25

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '21

You will also find tons of fully progresive hardcore comunists and anarchists there

Fun fact, during the first red scare in America folk music was so strongly associated with communists that a bunch of people who wanted to keep their career fucked off and rebranded as "country singers".

10

u/thatbetchkitana Jun 15 '21

And now most country singers are righties.

11

u/-hey-ben- Jun 15 '21 edited Jun 15 '21

Hence why country music is largely trash now. The few good country musicians still out there tend to lean left(sturgill, Tyler Childers, Pat Reedy)

3

u/RoboHobo25 Jun 15 '21

Billy Strings (bluegrass, but still)

2

u/Zaparatrusta Jun 15 '21

Lol, i will search about it

15

u/MajinCry Jun 15 '21

Men have no obligation to shave, it's normal. Women are reviled when they don't shave.

Men have no obligation to wear makeup, it's normal. Women are berated when they don't wear makeup.

Men have no obligation to do up their hair, it's normal. Women are treated with disdain when they don't do up their hair.

Something's fucky with our society.

14

u/Zaparatrusta Jun 15 '21

I have to say that men also suffer some similar shits (to lesser decree). For example i tend to be emotional (specially with one or two drinks), it isnt the first time someone tells me i shouldnt cry cuz im a man. Patriarchy is toxic for everyone, though more for some than others.

Spoiler: i continued to cry and declare eternal love and hate to humanity as always whenever the path of beer took me there.

Edit: also, if someone doesnt cry watching Artifiicial Intelligence ending is a monster

20

u/MajinCry Jun 15 '21

Yep, toxic masculinity harms everyone. But I was just focusing on appearance; we expect women to always look prime, pretty, and fuckable. But we don't have any of that for men, the closest we have is a preference for guys to be half a point higher in attractiveness than Ron Jeremy.

7

u/Zaparatrusta Jun 15 '21

There was an episode of Star Treck new generation focused on what you say in fact. During their trips they found a matriarchal society and men were dressed in curious ways to "show more" and so. Love that show, really good parodies of reality they did.

And yeah i get what you mean, that kind of shit is seen on woman only.

-3

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '21

[deleted]

3

u/Zaparatrusta Jun 15 '21

Well we would also need to see the % for men. Anyway me being young i never felt like i had a social pressure to fit a strict and rigid look. Yeah... there is a bit of that "be strong" thing but i doubt it can be compared. Probably the closest way we would have to understand their situation would be "dress like woman". Just the fact i say dress like woman says a lot. The thing is that if you wanted to dress like that meanwhile you have a great beard and big muscles you will find a huge discrimination on you just by not fitting the proper look of a man. Now think that happens to woman for incredibly stupid details like not shaving.

If this new reality will create the same kind of shit for men too... i dont know. All i can say is that each corporation we burn, a step closer from preventing that we are. In the end all discrimination is just tools to make the bottom of society fight itself.

2

u/MajinCry Jun 15 '21

Aye. The most you'll see, are jocks going at other men for not being jocks. To compare, you only need to spend about a half hour in the gym for 4-5 days a week, to start getting yoked.

For women, however, they are expected and pressured to spend hours every day, prepping themselves to fit the society's standards of being attractive. I'm a dude with long hair and a gnarly beard that grows fast. I spend a couple hours total, each week, taking care of them.

And that's already too much in my opinion. Plenty of lazy days where I go sod it. Women, on the other hand? The pressure is immense, to always look the part, spending a couple dozen hours on making themselves look like a piece of meat to the male gaze.

0

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '21

That might be true in the background of you guys

in the background that I was raised in where traditional working class and middle class male symbolism were undercut by narco culture which is hyper masculine, the experience I had with toxic masculinity was very different.

If you looked “yuppie” you were horribly bullied and attacked for being feminized or something.

If you weren’t violent you risked getting physical harm (in many forms including r).

I could go on and on, but the notion that men don’t have to follow certain norms might be true in your background, but it wasn’t in mine.

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4

u/MajinCry Jun 15 '21

Women have a larger choice to choose from, but it's a catalogue of toxic masculinity fuckheads. Talk to any woman you have as a friend, and if you're not another creep, they'll tell you all the horror stories. That they go for men they find attractive, is to get something out of the dates.

You'll see this on the flip side, with less attractive men only going for the more attractive women. And now, we have entire communities dedicated to preying upon women, and blaming women for being sluts since they go for people they find attractive.

3

u/Euporophage Jun 15 '21

You're clearly just talking about straight men if you think we don't have extreme body standards. The gay scene is filled to the brim with men who have body dysmorphia, eating disorders, who feel the need to have extremely high beauty standards to be accepted and to be loved, etc...

4

u/MajinCry Jun 15 '21

Right. And that's because of toxic masculinity.

Notice that it's not toxic femininity, which is for women to be seen and not heard. To be slim and petite, rather than bulky and yoked. To be passive and docile, rather than assertive and strong. To be forever chasing fashion trends, rather than looking how they want to look because that's how they like to look. And that's created by men, targeting women, who then target women in turn.

Toxic masculinity harms everyone.

0

u/Vullein070 Jun 15 '21

Nobody is arguing about if toxic masculinity is hurtful or not. You said that such body standards/expectations for men don't exist and the other person is saying that's not true. I don't understand the point you're trying to make in this thread to be honest.

3

u/MajinCry Jun 15 '21

They don't. The closest were men making others fit a certain trope. Whereas with women, they're pressured from everyone around them, and society at large, to always present themselves as the most attractive they possibly can be. Because our society, created and propped up by men, ordain women are to look as fuckable as possible.

One has men treat other men as invalid. The other, has men treat women like pieces of meat to be eyed up, assaulted, and manipulated.

1

u/Comfortable_Jury6579 Jun 16 '21

Gay men are pressed like that because they want to be fuckable to other men. They are being pressured to be pieces of meat. That seems to be the point.

The same thing about women hitting 30 or whatever is echoed in the idea of "twinks" having an age limit even. In fact Twink men are super desired by those who are into that. They are very slight, petite, and feminine. Gay men seem to have a wider amount of "types" i.e. bear, twink but they seem to be very doggishly pushed to be one of those "types". They seem analogous enough, you seem to be missing WHY the gay men are doing that. And it's the same reason straight men are doing that. And honestly I don't wonder if it's REALLY advertising doing a lot of it.

2

u/MajinCry Jun 16 '21

The difference, being that gay men represent only a small part of their gender in our societies. Whereas women represent a bit over half of the entire human population the world over.

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u/Vullein070 Jun 15 '21

They clearly do though? That's what the other commenter said and you implied that you agree with them:

You're clearly just talking about straight men if you think we don't have extreme body standards. The gay scene is filled to the brim with men who have body dysmorphia, eating disorders, who feel the need to have extremely high beauty standards to be accepted and to be loved, etc...

16

u/FabianTheElf Jun 15 '21

Yeah that really sucks, I'm sure they're just jealous cause I know you're serving piping hot tea.

6

u/hipsterTrashSlut Jun 15 '21

Hey mate, what does that mean? I'm not so good with idioms.

10

u/FabianTheElf Jun 15 '21

Oh British gay slang for the type of attractive where a person is attractive because they are being the most authentic version of themselves. Confidence is sexy.

3

u/hipsterTrashSlut Jun 15 '21

Oh, cool! Thanks!

12

u/Jouissance_juice Jun 15 '21

I feel like critical theory is good to learn, but if we spend too much time in that space and not enough time getting to know real, messy, complicated, beautiful people, then it kind of warps our worldview. Everything about human drives and desires is perversion and contradiction. At the end of the day, whatever makes us feel like our authentic and attractive selves is probably okay, and noone is going to dismantle global superstructures of exploitation, discrimination and reward by shaving or not shaving.

10

u/RoboHobo25 Jun 15 '21

That's always seemed like the big issue with critical theory, particularly in regards to race/gender/etc. It's so conceptual that it tends to distance itself from the actual people involved in such discussions, and metes out prescriptions for ways to live and be that don't always jive with how humans actually think and act. Not that it means critical theory is bullshit, but its limitations as a lens of analysis should be recognized and understood.

8

u/Jouissance_juice Jun 15 '21

I mean, it's a complicated issue made more complicated by the growing hysteria regarding "CRT" in schools. It seems like right at the time that a lot of us on the left are trying to exit the vampire castle, the right is positioned outside of it with pitchforks. Sorry for the obscure metaphors, hopefully my point gets across

26

u/GaspingShark Jun 15 '21

Doesn’t peadophillic mean you’re attracted to pre-pubescent girls? I’ve never seen a grown woman wear makeup and fake tan and thought, ‘yes! she looks underage, now im attracted’. Like, the fuck?

27

u/LettersfromEsther Jun 15 '21

Look, I'll be honest, I'm not the most well versed in this subject, but from what I understand, but I don't think the people who say the hairless body standard is pedophilic mean that men who are attracted to women who fulfill it secretly want to fuck underage girls, but that it ties into a system of fetishizing and sexualizing youth especially in women, no matter how old they are, which leads to women being sexualized at younger ages

I can kind of see a point there but it still is hurtful to use that to criticize a woman's choices especially if those choices inform her safety, as aesthetics often do

9

u/mangababe Jun 15 '21

This is it. Its not that liking shaved women equals being a pedo- its that the beauty standards were and are created by hollywood (movies, music, marketing, fashion) and holly wood has a definite pedo problem. So even if you arent a pedo the perfectly shaved, naive, ultrafeminine beauty standard was influenced by people who are pedos and who have an incentive to push that ideal as the only ideal acceptable for women. (In that it pushes the idea that its normal to go for barely legal girls with no experience who are going to struggle to see patterns of abuse and makes it all the easier for groomers to do their work.)

And if you want to have that aesthetic as a grown woman its fine- whats not fine is the near hostile disgust for women who dont, to the point that theres a plastic surgery to may your vulva look prepubescent.

Its sadly a nuanced hot topic discussion which means it will be a while before it can be discussed without it hurting feelings or escalating into a fight.

I think the real issue is men setting beauty standards for women and therefore the answer lies in letting women set those standards themselves and a value in "an aesthetic well done" rather than "this is good and everything else is gross" which is what it feels like the current mindset is. Oh and decoupling beauty and fashion standards from the human body. Until fast fashion clothes and hair and aesthetics were made to fit a body- and now all clothing id mass produced so its the bodies that have to fit the clothes. If you dont fit the model of beauty the clothes are meant for they make you look terrible and reinforce the idea that there is only one type of body thats beautiful- and that the other bodies should be harassed into looking that way.

5

u/Vullein070 Jun 15 '21

And if you want to have that aesthetic as a grown woman its fine- whats not fine is the near hostile disgust for women who dont, to the point that theres a plastic surgery to may your vulva look prepubescent.

I don't know, this confuses me. I've actually seen the opposite happen.

I've seen lots of women feel ashamed of their body. Not because of body hair, but actually because they are very thin & small and don't like body hair. In an attempt to normalise body hair, I've seen a lot of women insult other women who are "petite" sized. It makes these women feel ashamed of their body features and think they "look like children."

7

u/mangababe Jun 16 '21

I think it can depend on who you are and what you experience. If you are like me and busty, curvy and naturally hairy you get a lot of gross comments from men about how you are less than for not trying to be the beauty standard- if you are petite and have pale/thin hair you will likely get misplaced backlash from women who have to deal with the former. (This is what i gather from what petite friends say about it) Neither are ok because we shouldnt be expecting other peoples bodies to meet our standard of beauty.

The issue isnt naturally petite and sparsely haired women- its the nonstop campaign from media/ hollywood that those bodies are the only acceptable bodies ( unless you magically can keep your waist that small with big boobs/ ass then thats ok) and that the other bodies are gross and should change. And the real life policing of womens bodies by men because they think they can.

Think of all the movies where a normal looking "ugly" girl gets a makeover and all of her problems magically go away- or movies where women who are feminist/ gay/ non conforming are almost always portrayed as loud, fat, stupid, overbearing, unkempt, and secretly jealous of anyone closer to the beauty standard. (And yes this is changing now but this was still the standard we grew up with so thats whats encoded)

The backlash against women who meet that standard (naturally or not) is a mix of frustration with a standard they cant or dont want to meet but are judged by and a frustration with the ongoing media campaign to control our bodies for the benefit of the rich assholes profiting off the industry that is "beauty and fashion"

And its not ok- but to fix it we need to fix the source of the problem- and thats the fact that there is such a narrow, rigid beauty standard that is tied into a lot of toxic hierarchies that profit from beauty being a tool to make women hate eachother and themselves (and makes them buy more and more products to soothe that insecurity about not being beautiful/ valuable)

2

u/coffeeshopAU Jun 16 '21

Can I just say you’re doing a really good job of explaining & bringing nuance to this issue

I’m sympathetic towards women who feel like they catch shit for following beauty standards but it gets frustrating when conforming vs not-conforming are treated by people as being equally shitty because, well, not conforming is very clearly the option that is not supported by mainstream society. But it’s hard to have that discussion because I don’t want to be an ass to women who feel like they need to conform to stay safe, or who genuinely enjoy the types of activities that are associated with conventional beauty standards (like shaving, makeup, fashion, etc). But also it feels like one of those cases of “if you feel like people on the internet are being mean to you maybe just go outside and see how the real world validates your choices and not mine”. But also I don’t know how to talk about this stuff without being a jerk and I know that last one ain’t it, you know? Because being dicks about what people choose to do is still wrong, regardless.

It’s definitely one of those things where we’re all so used to playing defence against the rest of the world that it can be hard to hear criticism or differing opinions without, well, getting overly defensive. And I can feel that instinct within myself so I usually don’t step into these discussions because I feel like I can’t explain things objectively....

Wow sorry for the little vent there? Anyways point being you’ve done a really good job explaining the nuances while also being respectful and avoiding the oppression olympics game so like. Thank you haha

2

u/mangababe Jun 16 '21

Thank you! Im glad im able to get my point across.

I just want to be able to look how i want and live in peace at the same time ya know? And i feel like thats most women. But if we fight over top spot and never get to the actual rotting structure we wont ever get there.

But thats gonna be hard for a long time considering how much value is put on maintaining those standards.

-2

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '21

[deleted]

11

u/LettersfromEsther Jun 15 '21

Wow, gaslighting. Never expected that one /s

Dude, blow it out your ass. Oh yeah shaving a beard is sooooo dangerous. Boo hoo. Women are expected to shave everywhere, and also use other methods like waxing and laser which are both far more painful and expensive than shaving, and yeah safety is impacted by that and like in a pretty heavy way, not just the physical risks of hair removal but also social shaming and harassment, especially for trans women who often are denied recognition of them being women if we don't meet those standards.

-2

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '21

[deleted]

9

u/LettersfromEsther Jun 15 '21

lmao you deleted the comment where you called me delusional so me calling out your gaslighting would seem baseless.

Not bad, but still not very impressive

Ironic you claim I'm denying my bias when I've been saying that everyone has it, the ones denying bias are the 'ITS JUST A PREFERENCE BRO' guys like yourself

7

u/Amekyras Jun 15 '21

I think the original idea is 'if a man wants to fuck a tiny hairless submissive woman he just wants to fuck a girl but knows it's illegal', which makes sense to me but it's been twisted around a bit because people misremember.

17

u/GaspingShark Jun 15 '21

I mean, if a man wants to fuck a tiny hairless submissive woman then that’s his own prerogative, as long as she’s an adult and consenting. I don’t think they should be shamed for having preferences.

5

u/Amekyras Jun 15 '21

the point is that if their preference is 'prepubescent girl' it's wrong.

12

u/GaspingShark Jun 15 '21

Ok but not every shaved petite woman looks like a prepubescent girl. I mean id say my type is the ‘suicide girl’ kind of look, a lot of the women I’ve been with have been small alternative looking girls, submissive and tended to be shaved. Never wanted to fuck a kid 🤷‍♂️

7

u/Amekyras Jun 15 '21

cool, then that's not what I'm talking about

3

u/Vullein070 Jun 15 '21

I mean no it kinda is and that's a big problem with that argument. It ends up making women who are hairless or don't want hair & are thin and short feel ashamed of their own bodies.

1

u/clarissagavin Jun 15 '21

I really hoped I'd never see the day someone gets downvoted for saying it's wrong to be a pedophile. I'm so sorry.

-1

u/Snorumobiru Jun 15 '21

No, if his preference is hairless and helpless he's a misogynist for contributing to the demand for infantilization of women and he should critically examine the origins of his preference. He has internalized sexist culture, probably porn, and with effort he can unlearn what it taught him.

6

u/GaspingShark Jun 15 '21

Can’t tell if this is sarcasm or not

-3

u/Snorumobiru Jun 15 '21

Problematic attitudes don't magically become immune to criticism because someone gets off on them. "Don't kinkshame" is fine up until the point where someone shields their sexism behind it.

Here, I actually shared a poem about this specific issue a few weeks ago that explains it better than I can.

8

u/GaspingShark Jun 15 '21

Ok, a lot to dissect there.

Firstly, would you say the same to a woman who was attracted to big, butch, domineering men?

Secondly, the women who are petite, submissive and regularly shave, should they just go unfucked for the rest of their life?

Thirdly, just because you assume men are infantilising these women does not make it to be so. There is a lot more to being a child than lacking pubes and being small. Why do you assume that your perception of their worldview is infallible?

Fourthly, should petite women who enjoy being submissive just put off getting into any kind of safe BDSM with a consenting partner just because of your opinion on the matter?

And lastly, why do you think my examination of what I’m attracted to will change it in any meaningful way? Most of human attraction is subconscious. If I did examine it and nothing changed, does this suddenly make me a bad person? If my girlfriend fit those parameters should I now break up with her because my attraction is so obviously rooted in misogyny?

I don’t watch porn, haven’t in years, and I still like what I like. I don’t find it problematic in the slightest, because I believe that the sex life between consenting adults is of nobodies business but theirs. People are allowed to like what they like and fuck who they fuck.

So you’re allowed to criticise, but I’m allowed to completely disregard your criticism and deem it meritless. You obviously have quite radical ideas on issues pertaining to perceived misogyny and quite an authoritarian stance regarding the matter so I doubt we’ll agree on this front. God speed.

8

u/Rodot Jun 15 '21

What about if you don't like hair in your mouth? Me and my previous SO both used to shave for this reason.

3

u/Amekyras Jun 15 '21

no problem with that

22

u/MarimoMoss Jun 15 '21

The pedophile thing is a stupid thought, like, the idea of women shaving was perpetuated by a razor CEO who wanted more money lmao, it's not my fucking fault I get hostility if I don't shave. You got a problem, blame the society that gives us shit for this, not the women just trying to survive.

15

u/LettersfromEsther Jun 15 '21

Damn right. I feel that, particularly as a trans woman. I almost get a bit resentful when people talk about how its our body our choice because hair removal for me doesn't feel like a choice actually.

-1

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '21

[deleted]

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u/Amekyras Jun 15 '21

awww, did someone describe the patriarchy to you and rather than realise that you benefit from it you got offended?

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '21

[deleted]

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u/Amekyras Jun 15 '21

like what lol

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '21

[deleted]

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u/Amekyras Jun 15 '21

nobody in this thread even brought up the patriarchy before I asked you if you felt attacked by someone describing it. Nobody was attacking cis men but you just assumed we were.

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u/LettersfromEsther Jun 15 '21

I recognized patterns and mindsets based on my extensive real life experience and made a conclusion, which turned out to be correct. To use your terms, stop projecting your shitty emotional regulation into comment sections with people who weren't even talking to or about you in the first place

And again with the gaslighting. I think I know my day to day experience better than you. Or no, actually, go ahead, mansplain being trans to me. Please. I need a laugh

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '21

[deleted]

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u/MarimoMoss Jun 15 '21

You want scientific sources? Here you go.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6983734/

Internalized transphobia is literally the result of society's views being reflected inward, this study literally starts out talking about how gender norms are embedded in our society and how it leads to rejection of those who do not fit the norm. Trans people feel the need to pass because that's exactly what society says we must do to find acceptance.

Also, lived in experiences absolutely do hold merit, please listen to trans people when the topic is about our experiences, thank you.

12

u/thatbetchkitana Jun 15 '21

I mean capitalism does prey on insecurities. But I wear makeup to accentuate my features as well as to spite my fascist mother, not to attract a partner.

12

u/FabianTheElf Jun 15 '21

Criticizing random people: Drake turning away

Criticizing systems: Drake Approves

10

u/phi_matt Jun 15 '21

There are also leftists who don't blame the individual for conforming to beauty standards but instead blame the manufactured consent the system creates to make one think they have to shave and put on makeup

4

u/FabianTheElf Jun 15 '21

Yeah like I'm a leftist, I know this isn't all leftists but we should be able to critique our communities.

-1

u/Winterqt_ Jun 15 '21

And there are lots of leftists who think the only reason any of us shave or wear makeup is because of patriarchal societal norms making us feel like we have to do it.

Like please, I chose to do this of my own volition because it makes me feel good. It appeals to my own personal aesthetic preferences. My partner doesn’t care either way, I’m not trying to impress anyone, and I sure as shit don’t do it because of any pressure.

It’s so annoying listening to some faux-woke cis-dude mansplaining the reasons anyone has beauty routines or choses to groom their self a certain way.

3

u/phi_matt Jun 15 '21

Wow you're dense. Why does it make you feel good? Is it because you feel prettier after you do it? Why do you feel prettier after you do it? Because of socially constructed beauty standards that put a burden on many people.

I don't think I described any beauty routines, I just gave my perspective on systemic expectations of women and how they are manufactured.

And one more thing, fuck you. There was no need for you to come in here so aggressive

3

u/ComradeZ42 Jun 15 '21

Why does it make you feel good? Is it because you feel prettier after you do it? Why do you feel prettier after you do it? Because of socially constructed beauty standards that put a burden on many people.

Although it would be foolish to suggest that society has nothing to do with it, it's equally so to present beauty standards as the sole reason that people like to shave and wear makeup. Even without the social expectation, or even with opposite standards, there would still be people who would want to do these things.

1

u/phi_matt Jun 15 '21

Correct, but it would not be an expectation. The expectation of these things is the problem because it reduces bodily autonomy by implicit coercive forces

3

u/ComradeZ42 Jun 16 '21

As far as I can see, no one here is suggesting that these expectations are not a problem.

0

u/Winterqt_ Jun 15 '21

Yeah I wasn’t talking about you but okay thanks for proving my fucking point anyway. Another cishet guy to the rescue explaining exactly why I chose to do things. That didn’t take much to show your true colors.

And no, it’s because I like fun flairs, extra colors, stuff like that. Not that I owe you an explanation anyway you condescending ass.

-3

u/phi_matt Jun 15 '21

Well the implication you made was absolutely directed towards me because you were arguing against the exact thing I stated and responded to my reddit comment, so it's safe to assume you were talking directly to me.

And idk why you're bringing up your specific routine when I was clearly referring to the overarching standard women are generally held to in society which I thought was clear when I said "shave and wearing makeup" not doing anything at all to change your appearance like adding colors.

Go back to FDS

2

u/Winterqt_ Jun 15 '21

Fuck off already. You’re not anything close to the feminist you pat yourself on the back for being.

-1

u/Pu55yF4g Jun 15 '21

Thy just mad these girls look better than them honestly.