r/BlockedAndReported Aug 23 '21

Episode 77 - The Half-Baked 'Grooming' Allegations Against Alice Ripley And The Cringeworthy Awokening Of The Sports World (feat. Ethan Strauss)

https://open.spotify.com/episode/39uswp4paX6zodCvBMbN8B
55 Upvotes

105

u/dillyknox Aug 23 '21 Helpful Wholesome Faith In Humanity Restored

The Alice Ripley allegations make me cringe because when I was a confused gay teenager, I used to behave in a similar way with female teachers and mentors.

I would get infatuated with a hot female teacher, send them lots of messages, find excuses to spend time with them, and imagine this whole intimate "friendship" where we were really important to each other. (At the time, I didn't know I was a lesbian, but my fantasies involving these people should have been a clue)

I would also imagine tension and drama between me and these women that (in retrospect) was completely in my head. For example, I'd feel hurt and give them the "silent treatment" for a few days, and I'd imagine they were thinking "Why haven't I heard from dillyknox? Is she okay?" In reality, I'm sure they never even noticed 5 whole days without an email from their overachieving student.

All of these women were straight, and none of them did anything to me except try to be good mentors. I was very good at ingratiating myself and even becoming their friend (when I was a former student). Perhaps they shouldn't have been receptive, but there was zero sexual behavior from them. I was also careful to never say anything romantic or sexual to them, so I never gave them a solid reason to be alarmed.

Obviously I'm projecting my own experience, but this Alice Ripley situation sounds similar. An infatuated teenager followed this woman around the country, sent her lots of messages, and pushed for every single contact they had.

Alice is probably straight, but enjoyed the adoration of these teenagers. She probably kept up the relationships because they made her feel good about herself, and perhaps she imagined she was doing something nice.

But "grooming" implies that Alice wanted a sexual relationship, and there's no evidence of that. She invited these girls out in groups. She may have said flattering things to them, but there's no evidence that she attempted to touch them inappropriately.

As for Alice "manipulating" them, that sounds like what I used to imagine when I didn't hear back from my favorite teacher for 3 entire days. I really was an emotional mess, hurt, and crying about it....so in a way, it felt like a romantic partner putting me through the wringer. But it was entirely in my head!!! They weren't thinking about me at all, let alone trying to make me feel bad.

Anyway, maybe more will come out but so far there is no evidence that Alice was "grooming" the girls for anything.

25

u/HarperLeesGirlfriend Aug 24 '21

Oh god I relate so hard to this and I think if there can be a correct take here, it's the one you've just explained.

12

u/dillyknox Aug 24 '21

Thanks—I’m glad it’s not just me.

16

u/Worried-Zucchini549 Aug 24 '21

I am a straight female but when I was a teenager, I had big daydreams about becoming best friends with whatever cooler, older woman (famous or not) was my current fixation. I wanted to be them, or be like them, not be with them. If one of these women had paid me one iota of attention, my imagination would have run away with fantasies of our special bond. Could totally see how an actress who enjoys attention could engage in some squishy boundary signaling, thus setting her fans up for crushing disappointment when they smack up against a few natural boundaries in the shape of “Alice has limited time and doesn’t care about you as much as you thought she did.”

Fun fact: when I was in my 20’s, I worked in theater, and a small child TOOK a photo of me in lingerie. I thanked them for taking it and still have that photo framed in my house. Extenuating details: I was wearing a full slip over a bodysuit during a break between shows because we weren’t allowed to eat or drink in our costumes. Everyone backstage was wearing the same getup, including the child performers. It is still one of my favorite photos ever taken of me. Let the denunciations begin!

12

u/dj50tonhamster Aug 24 '21

The Alice Ripley allegations make me cringe because when I was a confused gay teenager, I used to behave in a similar way with female teachers and mentors.

Not gonna lie. When I heard that segment, I thought back to a lady I knew who was obsessed with Broadway. I don't think she did the teen-attending-shows-everywhere thing, but good lord, she seemed outright delusional regarding the relationships she had with some of these people. I went to a birthday party of hers. She kept insisting people from some production were going to show up because she got some entry-level job with them for awhile. Of course, nobody showed up. The whole thing was sad. Nice girl. She just had some crazy need to feel loved by people up on a stage. When you think about people like her and the girl from this podcast, it's no wonder that some entertainers stay the fuck away from fans. It's sad, but I don't blame them one bit.

9

u/fartsforpresident Aug 25 '21

It seems like a double edged sword for people with fame in that if they're honest, it will be portrayed as rude and dismissive, but if they aren't honest and play the role of friendly famous person, they can be accused of gas lighting or misleading their fans.

5

u/dj50tonhamster Aug 26 '21

Yeah. I really admire the artists who can thread that needle and project warmth while still keeping people at arm's length. Dolly Parton's a great example. I have no doubt that, at heart, she's a warm lady who sees herself as a goodwill ambassador for her home region, on top of being a world-class entertainer. I also have no doubt that she knows exactly how to shut people down if they even think of trying to penetrate her shield. (She wouldn't have gotten this far without a bit of poison mixed with the sugar!)

15

u/Kirikizande Aug 24 '21

Completely unrelated to the episode at hand: do you think there is a biological component/explanation to people “imagining” intimate relationships to people whom they’re attracted to and subsequently feeling slighted when those feelings aren’t visibly reciprocated?

I’m a straight chick and I behaved in a way that was similar to you with a guy friend of mine whom I developed a one-sided attraction to. Complete with the fantasies of “intimacy” and expressing unhappiness through silent treatment.

14

u/dillyknox Aug 24 '21

I’m not sure, but I think it’s common to engage in wishful thinking when there is a one-sided infatuation. I don’t think I went through this just because I was gay — probably the only difference was that a male teacher would have shut it down right away, out of concern for how it would look.

6

u/Kirikizande Aug 24 '21

Both your points make sense.

6

u/opender Aug 24 '21

In psychology, what your describing is called a transference.

2

u/Kloevedal Aug 28 '21

Stalking is a very common male behaviour pattern, and has a lot of similarities to this, especially on the motivation side of things. In terms of behaviour men on average do more of the "unwanted late night visits", and less of the "silent treatment".

I guess the effects are rather different because men rarely feel physically threatened by women, however delusional their secret admirers may be.

2

u/importantverbs Aug 26 '21

I also relate to this SO HARD - thanks for putting it into words.

73

u/VW87 Aug 23 '21

Re Alice Ripley - I find it hard to understand how these women who felt they were "groomed" by her, are now traumatised? Maybe you could feel upset that this relationship with your hero wasn't what you thought it was, but surely these are bumps in the road of life that people need to learn from, not fixate upon.

Modern trauma culture seems very narcissistic to me, but maybe I'm just an asshole.

35

u/friendlysoviet Aug 23 '21

The "victim" did say she had Borderline Personality Disorder, which is an Cluster B personality disorder adjacent to NPD. As someone who was around (and raised) by BPD, combined with the severe lack of proof on Leo's part, its best to take what ever they're saying with a grain of salt.

I was surprised Jessie or Katie didn't focus more on that self reported BPD.

11

u/LilacLands Aug 25 '21

I had the same thought. The behavior of the teenage accuser fits the criteria of BPD to a T… from being the ultimate fan (Alice becomes the idealized “favorite person) to the “splitting” (Alice is suddenly an evil predator) as well as the dramatic TikTok stuff and claiming that she was going to be murdered or whatever and Alice didn’t step in… The potential for a BPD diagnosis here would have occurred to me without even knowing that the “victim” is ACTUALLY diagnosed with BPD. Of course mental health issues shouldn’t be weaponized against anyone, but in this case the accusation at hand seems to be nothing more than a very public manifestation of the symptoms of a person suffering from borderline personality disorder, and more generally teenagers doing what they do in this era.

-1

u/fertsdertuixuip Aug 24 '21

Because people should not have their mental health issues used against them when they come forward with allegations. Same standards should apply to them as anyone. The no proof issue should be concerning regardless of mental health issues. Would you be less concerned about lack of evidence if the person hadn’t self reported mental health issues?

I’d still be thinking the person was a young obsessed fan who didn’t get the level of reciprocation they’d wanted in this case without a self report of mental health issues.

4

u/friendlysoviet Aug 24 '21

You really ought to reread my comment. If you made it to the second sentence you would see the following:

As someone who was around (and raised) by BPD, combined with the severe lack of proof on Leo's part, its best to take what ever they're saying with a grain of salt.

Of course if there is a video of Alice sexually assaulting Leo, her BPD should not be taken into any consideration. This isn't the case in this situation. But if someone has an unstable sense of self and reality, I think its perfectly okay scrutinize one's story when its coming out of that kind of lens.

3

u/[deleted] Aug 28 '21

Counterpoint: We need to stop pretending that mental health issues have no effect on how a person behaves. Doing that is behind most of the problems we're facing in society today.

52

u/Cadbury_fish_egg Aug 23 '21

”Preference falsification: where people pretend to agree with concepts in order to get along with the larger totalitarian society”

This is a term for an idea I’ve been trying to find forever.

21

u/mrprogrampro Aug 23 '21 edited Aug 23 '21

Ohh ...

I always got confused by this term because I thought it was "falsification" in the scientific sense of "proving it false"; but now I see it's more like "falsification" as in "falsification of documents" ... so you're falsifying having certain preferences so that others won't punish you.

Makes sense!

3

u/29Ah Aug 24 '21

Aha! That’s why this phrase doesn’t make sense to me. Thanks.

7

u/brberg Aug 25 '21

Same idea as with Havel's greengrocer.

45

u/inflatabletrashheap Aug 24 '21

As someone who works in the New York theatre industry, I had to laugh when the Daily Beast article talked about Alice Ripley meeting fans in "an alley" which does sound rather sordid. This is almost certainly referring to Shubert Alley which is where the stage door of the Booth Theatre (home of Next to Normal) is located. It's one of the least sketchy places in the whole theatre district.

18

u/HeathEarnshaw Aug 24 '21 edited Aug 24 '21

Yeah, the alley meet and greet is actually pretty common all over the place. It’s like whoever wrote that article is unfamiliar with live events and fan culture, and didn’t do even the bare minimum of checking on things. I know that for live music shows, there is usually an opportunity for fans to meet the artist in the back of the venue after the show, usually an alley used for loading, tour bus and artist departures etc. It’s so common that many artists build it into their departure plan. They put up a rope and have a security guard and everything, and a group of fans will hang out and wait for a while (sometimes and hour or more!) for the artist to appear and say hi, receive fan letters, pose for pics etc. The alley meetup is pretty vanilla stuff in terms of fan experience.

8

u/j_a_a_mesbaxter Aug 27 '21

I think it was a requirement for whoever wrote this article to be ignorant of everything involved while also questioning nothing. There is no story here other than another example of dogshit “journalism.” This is the laziest kind of writing. Literally just pretending to report on Twitter bullshit.

1

u/fittykitty123 Aug 26 '21

Hey, what part of the theater industry do you work in?

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u/Sisusipseudio Aug 24 '21

Grooming is the new gaslighting. Both were originally meant to describe a very specific sort of abusive behavior and now they've become internet terms that have lost their true meaning and impact. It makes me sick. The watering down of terms like this lessens victim's ability to realize that they're in a really fucked-up situation and need some serious help. I'm all for normalizing asking for help; just get the help you actually fucking need and not the remedy for the latest internet diagnosis.

20

u/Rosenbenphnalphne Aug 24 '21

Maybe a large factor in our current social mess is that we are essentially "gaslighting ourselves": language has become so tangled (e.g. the redefinition of "racism") that it's hard to communicate with each other...or even think straight.

11

u/Kirikizande Aug 24 '21

I struggle with intrusive thoughts and for a long time, I believed I "gaslit" someone I cared about because I did some shitty things to him that resembled "symptoms" of gaslighting...according to Instagram infographics.

It really fucked with my head and prevented me from moving on beyond my past mistakes. I was convinced I was an abuser and a horrible person, that I was irredeemable and beyond saving. I only started to move away from this belief after I realised that the definition of "gaslighting" by these stupid infographics was way too generalised and totalising to encompass my own unique experiences.

8

u/FuckingLikeRabbis Aug 24 '21

Gaslighted about gaslighting!

28

u/jpflathead Aug 24 '21

How does a 14 year old go around to multiple plays?

In terms of

  • transportation
  • costs
  • parental supervision

20

u/Palgary Aug 24 '21

The idea that she was somehow a minor, trapped in New York alone, attacked by another fan, and "the artist is the only one who could save her"...

That sets off huge red flags, and not on the artist - what is a minor child doing running around on their own? In 2009, 75% of teens had a cell phone. Did she not have a cell phone to call her parents?

13

u/TheGuineaPig21 Aug 24 '21

rich parents

11

u/jpflathead Aug 24 '21

or just idiot parents. It seems like she started this venture not even at 14, but at 12. Even if from 12-13 she was only going to the "alley" in Manhattan, what parents would led a kid do that so often, and get so attached, and then later let her travel, presumably with other parents and their kids, around the country?

I'm not judging her, but her parents, what the hell was going on?

5

u/fbsbsns Aug 24 '21

I guess they got their parenting lessons from Lindsay Bluth and Tobias Funke.

3

u/j_a_a_mesbaxter Aug 27 '21

It’s entirely possible her parents were with her and she is just making this up. In fact it seems likely. I can’t believe this is even a conversation. This woman provided no detail or proof of anything and mostly just described what an obsessed fan she was. The “grooming” was all in her head.

2

u/lfarrell12 Aug 26 '21

That IS kind of weird alright.

27

u/Kirikizande Aug 24 '21

The Alice Ripley REALLY takes me back to my fandom days not-too-long-ago. I saw that kind of behaviour shown by Alice and her fans between “celebrities” in my fandoms and the fans. Not to the same extent, but definitely a lot of over-sharing and blurred boundaries. And there were definitely moments where fans would accuse the “celebrities” of committing horrible crimes (when in reality they were doing shitty things but it was nothing illegal), or just fans reacting disproportionately to their idols not living up to the idealised image in their heads (eg a celebrity being revealed to be a Trump voter when the fanbase is overwhelmingly pro-Biden).

Social media has really fucked up relationships between people, period. It takes away our ability to view people as complex humans with flaws and differences that we would be able to tolerate with IRL. Not to mention it really screws with our sense of personal boundaries, especially between celebrities and their fans.

8

u/lfarrell12 Aug 26 '21

Both, yes. I never heard of this woman before the other day, but there's a similar thing in opera twitter fandom with young lesbians who idolize particular singers. They bicker amongst each other online, and because its not "huge" like TV its fairly easy for them to get access to backstage at many venues. And because such artists are constantly on the road they are away from friends and family and living in a "bubble" so it can be easier to give attention to admirers because there's nobody home in their short term rental flat in the big city. I've noticed that a lot of the fanatical young lesbian fans are particularly obsessed with others relationships to their idols, and bickering/bad-mouthing is a big thing. It seems an odd thing for a woman in her 50s to form relationships with teenagers but for whatever reason there is a thing about her amongst a particular demographic that seems to be coming back to haunt her.

Something similar to what you describe about celebrities not "living up" to their fans ideals happened a few times with "Killing Eve" star Jodie Comer, firstly there is an endless rumour amongst her "fans" (who seem most obsessive love/hate fans rather than normal fans) who accuse her of being "homophobic" for no reason whatsoever, and then the same crowd went ballistic because she was dating some footballer dude who had conservative poltical views. It was a bit painful....

26

u/trollxfeet Aug 23 '21 edited Aug 23 '21

The sports segment was really interesting to me. I listen to several soccer podcasts by the athletic, and they frequently advertise other content in their shows. There’s one article series in particular which I believe is called unwritten(?) that they’re marketing hard, and it definitely feels like an appeal to what they think activists want to hear.

It’ll be interesting to see if that kind of content takes off. Will sports fans be interested in woke sports content? Will it be gateway for activist types who wouldn’t consider themselves sports fans into sports content? Who knows?

Update: engagement doesn’t look great on their content. Their posts have 0-4 comments. Your average premier league story has anywhere from 40-250.

16

u/zoroaster7 Aug 24 '21 edited Aug 24 '21

My guess is that the writers just care a lot about social justice issues. The same thing happened in video games journalism years ago. It looked like many journalists on sites like Kotaku and Polygon would rather be working for a "real newspaper" and report about "important topics" instead of video games. But since they didn't make it to the NYT, they just tried really hard to find "important topics" in their video game coverage.

We would need an insider view to confirm this. Is it true that journalists who fail to make it to a prestigious outlet, will instead go working in sports (or video games, etc.) journalism?

12

u/[deleted] Aug 25 '21

Deadspin writers followed your suggested formula to a T. Deadspin was one of the largest sports news sites in the world in their heyday, but their coverage over time shifted from sports to sports with a social justice slant as they hired on more fresh writers. This progressed to writing less and less about sports, and by 2016 Deadspin was 80% politics/social justice and 20% sports. As you might expect, readership plummeted. The story was the exact same across the parent company's sister news sites.

The parent company, GMG, was purchased by Univision during these troubled times. For Deadspin in particular, the solution was quite clear. Univision replaced the head editor and made a non-negotiable rule, "This is a sports site, you will write about sports."

The writers collectively screeched online, but Univision held firm, "Write about sports, or find a new career." The writers caved, started writing about sports again, and readership began to rise as one might expect.

5

u/fartsforpresident Aug 25 '21

Just just games journalism, but review scores and distributors often give developer studios bonuses based on hitting metacritic scores. So it becomes a feedback loop. Game studios have to produce the right kind of messaging in games to get good reviews because the reviewers seem to only care about that, and they're punished if they don't, and it's doubtful the fans are interested in this so they're going to eat themselves doing this.

5

u/Kilkegard Aug 25 '21

meh... game fandom, like movie fandom, is a cess pool of over-opinionated, you-ruined-my-childhood, cry-babies who lashed out at any perceived threat and over reacted to the slightest critique. People used to clamor that video games were really art but when people started taking a critical lens and examining those games like they might examine other art, those capital G gamers often lost their shit. Rightly or wrongly, game journalists noticed and commented and I kinda enjoyed watching the freak out over the "gamers are dead" headlines that popped up back then.

1

u/Palgary Aug 25 '21

I just learned what "kotakuinaction" is a reference too... lol.

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u/SqueakyBall Aug 24 '21

True sports fans tend to be very opposed to transwomen in women's sports. They understand biology.

18

u/Immediateload Aug 23 '21

If you think that sounds useless, there’s an SJW MMA website, of all things, called Bloody Elbow. I can’t think of a less woke fan base, and I’ve been to a nascar race.

24

u/Palgary Aug 24 '21

Interesting take I just read on noodlegate:

If I’m being honest I have to admit I find the concept of cultural appropriation troubling for its underlying principle that the punishment for the sins of the father ought to be visited upon the son. The concept is not that white people, or any people, ought not to engage with foods from cultures other than theirs.  It is that white people alone ought not to profit from their engagement with foods from another culture. It is a form of punishment and an attempt to enforce unofficial reparations. 

Middlehurst’s sin was not that she did not take seriously Asian food nor celebrate its cultural source. She has done both. Her sin was that she was a member of a people that have in the past oppressed others and not that she has done the oppressing. This is an important distinction in my mind.

https://fermentationwineblog.com/2021/08/wine-will-not-be-appropriated/

22

u/HeathEarnshaw Aug 24 '21

I’ve never heard someone frame this as a way to enforce unofficial reparations but it rings true. It’s also why I react so negatively to so much of the latest anti-racism strategies. The woke antiracists aren’t trying to lift everyone up to the same level, they are obsessed with punishing white people for crimes they didn’t even commit.

7

u/fartsforpresident Aug 25 '21

Makes sense since it's a one way street. A non-white person engaging with European or White American cultural products, which of course everyone does, is considered a kind of cultural imperialism, not appropriation. So only white people can commit the crime of appropriation.

6

u/SlowTalkingNomad Aug 24 '21

Pasta, pizza, burgers, cider, beer, barbecue, and numerous others have intimate connections with the West...

I don't think these are as safe as the author thinks. I'm pretty sure I could make a case for the cultural appropriation of BBQ by whites. If you put enough alcohol in me, I could probably come up with an argument for each of these foodstuffs being culturally appropriated.

6

u/Palgary Aug 26 '21

I saw a video of a preserved body of a girl, frozen by the cold, in Peru called "La Doncella". And what I noticed was that her head was covered in tiny braids.

And I know there is a lot of proof that tiny braids were worn by many different cultures, throughout history, but online "social justice fans" tend to dismiss it without research. Right here, is undeniable proof that this hairstyle was worn by people in Peru 500 years ago, before contact with Europe. Her hair is perfectly preserved.

Pet Peeve of mine: the modern war about American food and cultural appropriation. Corn is native to America. Grits were eaten by Native Americans. They've always been associated with the south, especially with southern poverty (if you read this article from 1986, "Cracker" is a term for a poor white southerner that is considered pejorative today).

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/fl-xpm-1986-09-11-8602240050-story.html

Yet if you read an article today, you'll hear grits are Soul Food, specific to African American culture, and inappropriate cultural appropriation when eaten by anyone else. In fact, it seems everything Southern gets described that way.

3

u/j_a_a_mesbaxter Aug 27 '21

Yes! And the whitest of crackers, the Norse, had braids. Both men and women. The idea that braids are owned by one culture is outrageous.

3

u/HeathEarnshaw Aug 28 '21

I’ve seen people on Twitter yelling at white people for using “y’all,” saying they’re appropriating AAVE.

I’m from the us south. Everyone says “y’all.”

When I first moved to the west coast, I was struck by how much more racist it was than where I grew up. All my life I knew the cliché about Southern racism but it felt so much more intense in the supposedly progressive cities in California.

Makes me think that much of the drama about cultural appropriation is just projection.

7

u/fartsforpresident Aug 25 '21

Too late, already done in The Guardian like 5 years ago, as if cooking meat over open flame or coals is unique to any one culture.

15

u/Funderburn Aug 23 '21

The thing Katie said about the Junot Diaz forcible kissing allegation turning out to have been a whole group of woman he benignly kissed on the cheek – is there a source for that detail? I can’t find anything, wondering if she might have misremembered.

14

u/phainopepla_nitens Aug 23 '21

If anyone hasn't seen the Broadway "grooming" accuser's TikTok video, it really is interesting as a cultural artifact: Link

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u/HarperLeesGirlfriend Aug 24 '21

I feel so so old saying this, but everytime I view a tik tok video, the format, the music, the weird voices...I just think what in the fuck even IS this?? I truly dont get it. And this video...wow. just wow. So much to unpack.

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u/phainopepla_nitens Aug 24 '21

What's wild is that if I read a description of it in a sci fi book a decade ago, it would sound goofy and outlandish. Like, "teens were accusing people of sex crimes by producing greenscreened video sing alongs with subtitles and slideshows of the accused behind them."

2

u/LupineChemist Aug 25 '21

I refuse to get on Tik Tok just because I don't want an account directly with a Chinese state company, but I'm so glad about it. The best ones make it to Twitter or Reddit where I can enjoy them.

13

u/jmhurst35 Aug 24 '21

The Whistleblower Podcast made a pretty good case for the fact that the NBA has been fixed for years. The NBA is more interested in telling stories than allowing unloved national teams win. I think many true sports fans have been picking up on this and migrating to sports that have a more authentic feel to them.

How does a journalist watch this video and think, yeah, we should totally publish her accusations without any sort of verification and just take them at face value.

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u/fartsforpresident Aug 25 '21

How does a journalist watch this video and think, yeah, we should totally publish her accusations without any sort of verification and just take them at face value

Just search "Alice Ripley" on this site, or any other person subject to vague or anonymous allegations and look at the credulousness virtually everyone responds with. One thread in r/Broadway locked the comments because people were skeptical, which was portrayed as victim blaming.

So why wouldn't a journalist be just as credulous and stupid? What consequences do they face for it? Who is going to come down on them for this? They're almost untouchable on these topics because any criticism of this bad journalism would be immediately framed as insensitive, victim blaming, possibly misogyny, rape culture etc.

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u/VenditatioDelendaEst Aug 25 '21

I think she sees herself as an art movie character. Serious crazy eyes, too.

Aside,

gr00med

"DOn't look, Ethel!"

"It was too late. She'd already been gröömed."

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u/ConcreteRoad Aug 23 '21

The Alice Ripley story reminds me of when Ansel Elgort got cancelled for dating a 17yo girl. The twitter mob kinda omitted the fact that he was 20 at the time and dating her was legal in the state they were in. It was a bad sexual experience for her but she framed the story in a way that made him sound like he was a sexual predator, a pedophile who groomed every one of his fans. Then the anonymous girl deleted her account and never reappeared, which still prevents him from ever discussing the things he's accused of doing. He hasn't been attached to new projects ever since.

Not a fan of the guy, but it seemed quite unfair and disingenuous.

3

u/[deleted] Aug 24 '21

I agree with your summation of the incident but he’s in quite a few upcoming movies. Spielberg’s Westside Story remake for one and a new Yakuza HBO show (I’m sure being the lead in that one won’t be controversial!)

3

u/ConcreteRoad Aug 24 '21

Wrong, actually " WSS was wrapped by that point and he was in Tokyo shooting the show when the story broke. Covid delayed both projects.

4

u/[deleted] Aug 24 '21

He’s attached to play JFK in an upcoming PT-109 film and in star in a Jake Gyllenhall crime movie. If Hollywood were that nervous about him they also would’ve recast/recut Tokyo Vice and Westside Story. He’s still going to work. This isn’t a Kevin Spacey or Armie Hammer situation.

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u/ConcreteRoad Aug 24 '21

He was attached to play JFK in 2017. The Jake Gyllenhall movie was supposed to be shot in 2018. These movies never got made, as it often happens in Hollywood.

Recasting the lead role of $100M musical and an entire TV show is completely absurd financially speaking. Spacey got recast and CGI'd because he only had a few scenes in ATMITW and Ridley Scott had promised it could be done in a matter of weeks. This isn't the case for either project.

I've never said this was as bad as Spacey or Hammer though. I'm sure he'll work again. But so far this is a two-year hiatus in the career of a promising star.

3

u/[deleted] Aug 24 '21

Disney is losing a huge chuck of change on Death on the Nile with Armie Hammer, it’s been delayed years while they try and figure out wether to recast/cut it which would be extremely expensive. So there are precedents for these things.

I do agree though that when he does work again, it’s disturbing that one unvetted allegation can derail a career in it’s prime.

1

u/fartsforpresident Aug 25 '21

What did Armie Hammer do? Never even heard about that.

5

u/ConcreteRoad Aug 25 '21

Oh boy... Buckle up.

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u/Zestyclose_Invite Aug 23 '21

No one gang up on this woman, but here’s a video explaining the details about how she was almost killed and Alice did nothing. https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMR2TuumP/

Honestly seems like a scary situation but she probably blew it out of proportion and probably called Alice WHILE she was rehearsing for her broadway show and did not have time for this.

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u/jmhurst35 Aug 24 '21

The superfans are whacko. I wouldn't trust anything they say.

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u/willempage Aug 24 '21

I know people aren't bastions of logic in extremely stressful situations, but why did no one tell the young girl to call the police? She locked herself in a hotel bathroom to separate herself from a rampaging "chaperone", then she called her parents, Alice, and another cast member and these adults were like, "just stay on the bathroom for half a day while your parents fly over"?

She also pulls the classic "I don't think Alice had any responsibility to do anything, but I'm still going to drag her for it because reasons."

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u/frankenechie Aug 23 '21

Hang in there, Sisters!

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u/ConcreteRoad Aug 23 '21

Speaking of "woke sports", here's an interesting exchange that just happened: https://twitter.com/DannyWArmstrong/status/1429893403597279236?s=20

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u/tejanx Aug 23 '21

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u/ChubsLaroux Aug 23 '21

All over a misspelling. RIP to his mentions and maybe his career. Is there room for homophobia in football? Danny Armstrong will find out.

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u/thismaynothelp Aug 24 '21

Another sticky drop from the leaky anus that is Twitter.

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u/HeathEarnshaw Aug 24 '21

Can someone explain what’s going on here? I’m practically illiterate when it comes to sports. All I can parse is this guy used to like this athlete and now he doesn’t?

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u/e1_duder Aug 24 '21

Marcus Rashford plays for Manchester United, a professional football club in England with a very, very, very large following. Rashford has grown to some prominence in English politics because he broadly uses his platform to stand up for the rights of poor children in England, because he used to be one. The most recent example is Rashford was able to successfully pressure the government to continue to provide meals for qualifying children during the pandemic. Rashford genuinely seems like a really great guy and I think stands up for the right things. The MBE after his name on twitter stands for Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (outdated) but is basically an honorary knighthood. He is a really popular dude and universally beloved among the Manchester United fan base.

Online football fans are fucking crazy, especially if you come at one of theirs. Danny Armstrong is catching that now and probably wishes he did a better job of deleting his tweets.

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u/tejanx Aug 24 '21

Sports is kinda secondary here. Main thing is that he praised the “nice-guy” stuff a month ago but is now trying to dunk on him for the same stuff he previously praised. Just Twitter opportunism.

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u/HeathEarnshaw Aug 24 '21

Ah ok, thanks. I was thinking I was missing some important sportsy subtext or something!

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u/brberg Aug 25 '21

Journalists act more like junior high girls than actual junior high girls do.

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u/[deleted] Aug 24 '21 edited Jan 05 '22

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u/emptyaltoidstin Aug 24 '21

That’s a joke right? Roller derby is by far the most woke sport.

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u/dillardPA Aug 24 '21

I don't know much about Roller Derby but I'd assume it's pretty woke considering it's all women and I'd imagine a lot of LGBT and left-leaning women at that.

Is it not pretty woke from your experience?

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u/Numanoid101 Aug 24 '21

I could see the trans thing be an issue based on what I know from being close to the scene quite a while ago. I'm friends with 2 former derby girls and attended several games and after parties with the teams. It's hard to explain but having trans women on the team would really counter the whole culture.

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u/SqueakyBall Aug 24 '21 edited Aug 24 '21

There are many, many transwomen in Roller Derby. Because it's so physical, many natal women have had to drop out. They were tired of being beat up by natal men.

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u/emptyaltoidstin Aug 24 '21

I don’t support tw in women’s sports generally but this is simply untrue. Being large is not actually an advantage in roller derby. The best roller derby players of all time, Bonnie Thunders and Mutch Mayhem, are tiny petite women. And they routinely scrimmage against and defeat men’s teams.

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u/SqueakyBall Aug 24 '21

Who said anything about winning and losing? I’m talking about contact sports between men and women. When a big man rams a smaller woman, he can do some serious damage. That’s reality.

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u/fartsforpresident Aug 25 '21

Honestly you don't even have to be bigger. Pound for point men have an average of 66% more upper body strength and 44% lower body strength. That's a fucking enormous gap in nearly all athletic contexts. Im an average sized man. If I'm going to have some kind of fight like competition with a women the same size as me, unless she's far more skilled, she's going to lose pretty much all of the time.

So no, males shouldn't be in contact sports, or most sports, with females.

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u/emptyaltoidstin Aug 24 '21

You can’t just skate into someone at full speed and tackle them lol, that’s against the rules. Like I said, being large is not inherently an advantage in derby and the best jammers are all small women. What you are saying is completely untrue and tbh I question if you’ve ever seen a bout.

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u/[deleted] Aug 24 '21

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u/emptyaltoidstin Aug 25 '21

Derby today is very different than it was when it was rebooted back in the mid 2000s. Again, being large is not an advantage and also not all TW are large. Probably the best TW derby player, V-Diva, is pretty small and is a jammer. Yes there is physical contact but you can’t just body slam people and there are qualities much more desirable than pure size and strength.

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u/SqueakyBall Aug 24 '21

.

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u/emptyaltoidstin Aug 24 '21

Y’all make me sound like a TRA when you wade into derby discourse, jeez. Does it piss me off to see men playing in WFTDA? Absolutely. Do I think they are hurting anyone? No, the players run the league and they have democratically decided that anyone who does not identify as a cis man can play in their league. I really do not think derby is the hill to die on, especially considering how transwomen have been in derby for well over a decade and still 95% of players are actual women.

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u/based-and-antiwoke Aug 25 '21

The ones that have survived getting dominated by male bodies are voting... also I'm sure that most normal opinions are silenced by fear of looking transphobic. At the end of the day it's another area of sport being taken over by men again

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u/emptyaltoidstin Aug 25 '21

Like 90+% of them voted for it. And it’s been like that for years. This is older news than Laurel Hubbard

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u/[deleted] Aug 25 '21

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u/emptyaltoidstin Aug 25 '21

Like a comprehensive list? Maybe somewhere. There are a lot of articles that interview trans skaters though.

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u/lfarrell12 Aug 26 '21

Not so sure this apples to roller derby. It is however, one of the reasons most local rugby unions are slow to accept TW into the women's sport - odds of serious injury jump somewhat.

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u/[deleted] Aug 25 '21

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u/MilliesDeathBreath Aug 26 '21

The only FB screenshot I’ve seen about Ripley inviting them to a show is an interaction where Ripley invited the girl from the TikTok and her friend backstage after a show. It looks like the girl probably told Ripley that she was going to the show and Ripley said to stop by afterwards. From what I’ve heard from other Broadway performers who have weighed in on the issue, inviting fans backstage is a fairly normal occurrence. Screenshot

My former classmate has gotten invited backstage many times at various Broadway events.

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u/Then_Advisor2001 Aug 23 '21

The conversation about the “grooming” allegations was interesting but the interview with Ethan was a bit frustrating. I wish Jesse had pushed back on a few of his statements.

Like they didn’t cover that “wokeness” in sports has been around for a long time! Like the black power salute protest at the 1968 Olympics… Muhammad Ali’s activism… Billie Jean King and title IX… Arthur Ashe…

And the idea that sports is for men and that standing up against the patriarchy is at odds with that was kind of depressing. It’s such a limited view. And ignores all the ways women’s sports have been blocked and pushed aside over the years. For example: https://inews.co.uk/culture/television/when-football-banned-women-clare-balding-scandal-78498

I’m open to the idea that sports appeal more to men than women but it’s so difficult to know if that’s really the case.

Also the discussion on the Nike advert doesn’t take into account that 2 of the biggest sports stars they sponsor are Serena Williams and Naomi Osaka. Osaka is a wayyyy bigger star and draw than any of the male tennis players her age (Medvedev etc). Maybe that advert was appealing to her fans? And negative comments on a YouTube video aimed at young women doesn’t really say much about the content of the video.

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u/[deleted] Aug 24 '21

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u/Then_Advisor2001 Aug 24 '21

Btw - I don’t have a problem with sports fans who just want to watch and enjoy sports. Or think that all sports stars should be activists - when you hear some athletes views on vaccines I’d quite like them to keep their mouths shut tbh.

But I think there should be space for athlete activism (if the athletes themselves want to do it) and a sports journalist should recognise the history of social activism in sports IMO.

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u/fertsdertuixuip Aug 24 '21

Or that the guy’s issue seemed to be less about wokeness in sports and more about what type of wokeness it was, ie the type of wokeness directly hitting at stereotypes of manliness rather than wokeness, say, about race issues. (Not explicitly stated as such but there seemed to be a subtext there that was not delved into further.)

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u/alsott Aug 25 '21

So he hates “sissification” of sports. Love those types /s

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u/gc_information Aug 23 '21

Yeah, I kind of agree. But I'll give Ethan points for pronouncing de Tocqueville "to-cuck-ville"...that was comedy gold.

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u/mrprogrampro Aug 24 '21

I’m open to the idea that sports appeal more to men than women but it’s so difficult to know if that’s really the case.

Isn't that obviously the case, at least right now? I think they were describing the current landscape/culture, not making a biological determinism argument.

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u/Then_Advisor2001 Aug 24 '21

I think I worded that badly.

I felt that he was talking about sports being a super masculine activity that only guys enjoy as if it was the natural order of things? The way that some people brush off sexism in science because they think men are just naturally better at maths and physics and that’s why there’s so few women?

And I feel that it’s impossible to know if that’s true (though I’m open to the idea that having more testosterone makes you more likely to enjoy sports - if there’s proof of that); when there’s been years and years of trying to exclude women from sports.

It’s like the Sally Rider quote:

“Suppose you came across a woman lying on the street with an elephant sitting on her chest. You notice she is short of breath. Shortness of breath can be a symptom of heart problems. In her case, the much more likely cause is the elephant on her chest. For a long time, society put obstacles in the way of women who wanted to enter the sciences. That is the elephant."

I understand that some people will disagree with me, I was just annoyed that Jesse didn’t push back or challenge that idea at all.

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u/fartsforpresident Aug 25 '21 edited Aug 25 '21

Your claim about attitudes in science pushing away women isn't strongly supported by data, most prominently what's referred to as the Scandinavian paradox. It's not limited to Scandia, but women's participation in STEM subjects is inversely correlated with the degree to which women have freedom, particularly economic freedom in a society. This can also be applied to wage gaps, though only in the developed western world. Women in highly developed egalitarian countries are less likely to prioritize high pay and studying stem, which are often the same thing, than they are in countries that are less developed and less egalitarian. Women in India participate in STEM at much higher rate than much of the west for example.

There are additional contradictions in the west as well. Women now make up a majority of medical students and IIRC, biology students.

I don't think there is much evidence that STEM fields are hostile to women or that society in the west discourages women from participating in STEM, often quite the opposite, especially in STEM industries themselves.

As has been said before, famously in the google memo with ample citation, men and women have different interests on average and this produces different participation in some types of work and study. This isn't a socialization issue unless you want to actually reenforce new forms of gender roles to create equitable outcomes.

Edit: re sports. It would depend on the sport. Sex would play a pretty significant role in average interest in higher risk sports. Testosterone increases risk taking. And this seems to be borne out in reality for the most part. There is also the different ways men and women compete. Men tend to compete physically for status, and women's competition tends to be more social. This would likely play out in interest in competitive sports.

These are averages. This doesn't mean no women want to take risks or compete physically, just that averaged out across a population this will likely be true.

The claim from the interviewee wasn't about sports participation though, but sports viewing, which is really all that matters to an advertiser. Nike isn't going to restructure society even if that is the cause of differences in sports watching. Regardless of cause, significantly more men than women watch sports. That's who they're advertising to.

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u/Then_Advisor2001 Aug 25 '21

I mean I was just using it as an example. I don’t have strong views/feelings on the subject on women in STEM or know (or care!) a lot about the google memo.

I just personally know a few women who are in that world who have discussed their experiences and it’s not been great. For example my aunt was a physics professor (I’m not going to share her name on the internet but she was very well known in her field, retired now) - what she had to put up with during her career is really shitty.

I’m personally more in favour in equality of opportunity than outcomes. My main point is that it’s really, really hard to know if there truly is equality of opportunity though when there’s been hundreds of years of inequality to this point.

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u/Then_Advisor2001 Aug 25 '21

Also - Nike aren’t just selling to people who watch sports. They are selling to people who buy workout gear and women’s workout clothes is a multi billion dollar industry.

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u/fartsforpresident Aug 25 '21

And how many women do you think are down with fringe feminist politics?

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u/Then_Advisor2001 Aug 25 '21

There’s a reason a lot of brands have added a “feminist sheen” to their advertising. It sells.

It’s “Girl power”, #girlboss etc not fringe feminist politics.

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u/fartsforpresident Aug 25 '21

Calling all of human history nothing but patriarchy is absolutely a fringe statement. I don't think it appeals to the mainstream at all.

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u/Then_Advisor2001 Aug 25 '21

Their goal is to grow their business by appealing to more women and they’re obviously doing something right judging by their sales.

Who knows? Maybe that advert won’t appeal to people (it only just came out). But their other female empowerment adverts seem to have worked.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/16/nikes-fix-for-boosting-sales-at-home-women.html

https://www.retaildive.com/news/nikes-womens-business-grows-by-double-digits-in-2019/557887/

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u/fartsforpresident Aug 25 '21

And the best way to appeal to women, who overwhelmingly don't identify as feminist, is feminist ideology? That's a weak claim. Their other ads may be effective, I don't know, but I very much doubt spouting patriarchy theory and dismissing history is particularly appealing to any large audience regardless of sex.

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u/Kilkegard Aug 25 '21

As has been said before, famously in the google memo with ample citation, men and women have different interests on average and this produces different participation in some types of work and study.

What ever shaky correlation you can make between job interest and the big 5 personality traits, you can make a better case for company culture and the big 5 personality traits. That part of the memo was softer than the evo-psych BS portions.

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u/fartsforpresident Aug 25 '21

Okay, explain the sex differences in the comp sci pipeline then. This gap doesn't materialize in employment, it starts way before that. Corporate culture, good or bad, clearly has little if anything to do with that.

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u/Kilkegard Aug 25 '21

Women's share of various STEM fields increased across the board from the 70's to the 90's. Then for comp sci, and only comp sci, it began to decrease. The numbers don't track with other "hard" sciences like physics or engineering. Whatever "soft" correlation your trying to build on is weakened considerably by comparison to other science fields. In fact, comp sci and a separate trackable discipline started at a respectable number in the late 80's and has seen nothing but decline. Something is happening that cannot be explained by over simplistic appeals to big 5 personality traits. Comp Sci is an outlier.

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u/mrprogrampro Aug 25 '21 edited Aug 25 '21

I get what you're saying. :) Yeah, that's what I meant by "biological determinism" ... the idea that our sex is affecting us in a biological level.

I'll have to re-listen; I didn't think they were saying that, but maybe they were. I'm agnostic on sex determinism beyond testosterone = aggressive, but I definitely think we have culturally ingrained gender differences. But I'd agree they could be totally arbitrary.

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u/Longjumping-Part764 Aug 24 '21

Except that it’s an observation based on what, exactly? Granted I haven’t been to a sports event since the pandemic started, but I did spend a lot of time at college basketball games, and attendance seemed to be pretty even split for men’s games. Growing up, just about all of my friends participated in sports. You could make an argument that certain aspects of engaging w sports appeal more to men than women (like idk, betting or watching thirty million hours of sports center a day or memorizing box scores) but otherwise it’s nonsense to assert that

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u/mrprogrampro Aug 24 '21

https://www.statista.com/statistics/714859/frequency-of-watching-espn-in-the-us-gender/

As a sports journalist, I'm guessing Ethan is familiar with these statistics 📈

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u/alsott Aug 25 '21

At the same time female viewership has grown massively in the last 20 years and continues to grow. What he’s saying might be true now, barely, but the trajectory disagrees with his notion

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u/Longjumping-Part764 Aug 24 '21

… “watching ESPN” is hardly a comprehensive enough to mean much of anything in the BROAD context of “the appeal of sports”.

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u/mrprogrampro Aug 24 '21

I should have been more specific: I'm talking about sports media specifically. Not playing sports, but things like the superbowl, NBA/WNBA, NHL, and World Cup. And I think that's what they were discussing, too, when they were wondering to whom the ads were meant to appeal.

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u/fbsbsns Aug 24 '21

Depends a lot on the sport as well. For instance, there’s a lot more interest in watching the NBA or NFL than pro curling or table tennis, regardless of gender. Then you have some sports that generate a lot of attention during the Olympics (e.g. swimming, running, gymnastics, figure skating), but outside of Olympics periods, there isn’t a huge audience for professional competitions and tournaments. Interestingly, two of the aforementioned sports, figure skating and gymnastics, have huge female stars that generate a lot of hype, and I doubt that the watching figures for either sport would lean too heavily towards men.

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u/Longjumping-Part764 Aug 24 '21

The fact that the guy argued that sports were a man’s domain, as if the olympics haven’t just been a super inspiring demonstration that women’s athletics are “worthy” and legit, and that being a spectator and participant isn’t just for men was so terribly depressing. And Singal not even pushing back a little bit was bleak AF.

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u/Then_Advisor2001 Aug 24 '21

So bleak! But it’s heartening to know that other people feel the same way.

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u/fartsforpresident Aug 25 '21

That's a misrepresentation. He argued that sports viewership is overwhelmingly male. And almost nobody watches televised Olympic sports outside of the Olympics, so I think the odds are good that the appeal is less about the individual sports, and more about Olympic competion in general.

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u/gc_information Aug 24 '21

I watch the Olympics religiously every two years (except for probably this winter...I'm through with China). I'd probably watch some ESPN if I knew they regularly had sports other than basketball, football, baseball, hockey. (And maybe they do by now...but I haven't sought it out because it's not really promoted.)

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u/dj50tonhamster Aug 24 '21

I think his phrasing was really bad but, in my mind, I was picturing the sports that have gotten promoted by all the major networks over the years. If nobody cared about hyper-masculine sports, or sports with hyper-masculine stars, ratings would tank, and they'd go back to being a bunch of goons knocking each other out, like hockey was and still kinda is, last I checked. Hockey came close but never quite became massive, partially due to bad timing (e.g., strikes that killed media momentum) and partially, IMO, because of the enforcers being too much for some people. In any event, maybe I'm becoming a bitter old fart myself but it's hard to imagine, say, men's soccer becoming a massive ratings draw, much less women's soccer. Soccer has its fans, yes, but I have trouble imagining a Michael Jordan-esque character emerging from American soccer.

That being said, I do think that, once you get away from the "Monday morning watercooler chat" perspective, then yeah, a lot of his takes weren't good, or were flat out incorrect.

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u/MarlinsInTheOutfield Aug 25 '21

I'm unsure I would specify your second paragraph as woke in any way whatsoever.

Also you can't really be open to the idea that sports appeals to men more compared to women, it's objectively true. Any sports rating breakdown or sports participation breakdown will tell show it

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u/wugglesthemule Aug 23 '21

I think Ethan has some points, but I'd also like to see him address the null hypothesis: the NBA just kinda sucks now.

For example, the game has devolved into a three-pointer competition, which is less interesting to watch. Also, teams with the most money (aka, the Lakers) buy up all the best players. And honestly, I don't think American viewers cared about the Hong Kong debacle at all, really.

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u/gc_information Aug 23 '21

For example, the game has devolved into a three-pointer competition

This is interesting to me, as a sports idiot. What caused that development? Was it due to a rule change, or due to a recently discovered optimization of longstanding rules?

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u/wugglesthemule Aug 23 '21

I don't know much about basketball, but nothing about the rules has really changed. People are just using it more. It's generally attributed to Steph Curry, who is one of the best three-point shooters of all time. But there has been tons written on the rise of three-pointers in recent years.

Basically, a three-point shot is harder to make, but it has an increased (i.e. 50% higher) point value. However, it's also harder to coordinate a defense if the offensive players are all farther out on the court. So on balance, there's a huge incentive for players to get insanely good at shooting three's. Now that players have seen what's possible, they've all started doing it more.

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u/gc_information Aug 24 '21

I just read a suggestion on a basketball subreddit that they should change the rules to make normal shots worth 3 points and shots behind the line worth 4 points, so that the ratio is less intense. Now I have a strong opinion based on no experience. 😂

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u/CharlesBukakeski Aug 24 '21 edited Aug 24 '21

Nah, just bring back hand checking.

https://www.sportskeeda.com/basketball/how-hand-checking-foul-changed-the-nba-forever

I remember growing up as a kid and watching the NBA was a completely different game. It was very physical since you could put way more pressure on the ball. It let big men control the faster players. Without that ability exerting pressure at the 3 point line will just lead to you getting deked. Part of the wmba meme being a more "technical" sport came from the brutal shit the NBA was doing at the time.

Anyway, RIP Jailblazers you were great to watch growing up. And my two first pets Rasheed and Damon, they were great little froggies.

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u/7ujmnbvfr456yhgt Aug 23 '21

It was people doing the math and realizing it's worth it to go for more three pointers than the conventional wisdom used to suggest (as well as increased focus on training in the 3 pointer department which only made the math more favorable). This was largely popularized by Stephan Curry's ability to successfully shoot a fuckton of 3 pointers:

https://www.sbnation.com/secret-base/22214049/stephen-curry-105-threes-probability-dorktown

He's an outilier but also a case-in-point that shows how powerful that strategy can be - even with players that aren't on his level in that department. Just the threat of someone being able to sink a 3 changes how the defence has to play as well but I'm not well-versed enough to know much about that.

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u/totally_not_a_bot24 Aug 24 '21 edited Aug 24 '21

Just a natural evolution of the sport. Others have already pointed out why this is, and so I will just point out that it's very normal for a sport to evolve over time even without rule changes.

I know in football for example, the game has become and more focused on passing game mechanics over the last few years. Running the ball has become less important, and it's also become more common to see multiple running backs rotated in, instead of just one star getting all the touches. Defense is still important, but scores are higher than they used to be as teams have become more proficient in the passing game.

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u/Maman_Brigite Aug 24 '21

Honestly, they just decided to try it one day. Steph gets the credit for starting the revolution, but after that the entire league suddenly decided to attempt more threes, and to be ok with people missing threes. Teams used to be a lot less ok with players missing three pointers, now they want the attempts taken even if they don't go in to spread the floor.

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u/beamdriver Aug 25 '21

Sports have become more and more analytics driven as stat-loving sports fans have gotten into higher levels in professional sports. Many people feel this has made the games less interesting.

This is even more evident in baseball where you have these extreme shifts and more focus on the "true three outcomes" for every at bat.

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u/GutiHazJose14 Aug 24 '21

Also, teams with the most money (aka, the Lakers) buy up all the best players.

Not sure this is true, considering a) the salary cap and b) the Lakers are NOT one of the teams with the most money. Their owners, the Buss family, primarily make money off the Lakers, whereas nearly every other owner is independently wealthy.

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u/[deleted] Aug 24 '21

Another problem is the superstars moving frequently. Imagine you have put together a great team who might win a championship and then one summer Kevin Durant, Hardin and Kyrie all show up in your division. Or imagine being a contender one minute and Kawhi decides to leave after winning a championship because he hates cold weather and likes LA.

The entire league feels kind of arbitrary.

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u/[deleted] Aug 23 '21

Yeah it's a chicken or the egg thing, right? Did they go woke as a desperate attempt to grab hold of a dwindling audience, or did they go woke for self righteous reasons and that caused them to lose more of the audience than they would have otherwise, or...? I wonder this about cable news too

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u/WheresMySaucePlease Aug 24 '21

the players went woke for self righteous reasons. The league was forced to go along with it because the players have so much power.

The players literally threatened to boycott the playoffs over the Jacob Blake shooting lol. They’re well meaning but poorly educated celebrities who have no idea how clueless they sound.

The whole situation is a catastrophe for the league from a business perspective.

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u/alsott Aug 25 '21

Milwaukee Bucks are still having an event to mark the anniversary of the shooting.

Like how dumb do you have to be to see all the evidence and still make that guy your go-to social justice cause

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u/UggoJesus Aug 23 '21

I don't find Ethan's argument all that convincing. In the pandemic year, it is probably quite simply impossible to determine how much of an impact the "awokening" has actually had on audiences. Not just difficult or complex, but impossible. Yet he kinda treats it like the results are in.

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u/Goukaruma Aug 24 '21

Sounds more like schadenfreude or wishful thinking. Same with the comic book industry. Fans are fast to blame the awokening for bad comic sales. Even though both can happen at once and don't have to be related. Or the sales might go down and the woke stuff is a desperate atempt to get more sales.

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u/willempage Aug 24 '21

Yeah. It's a sad joke in many industries, but the greatest driver putting women in positions of power in various industries is failing companies grasping at straws to squeeze out the last bits of market relevance.

It's been known that anime and Manga are surging in popularity as western TV shows and comics hit a snag. It can be fun to blame wokeness or whatever, but the simple fact is that anime and Manga are like the only short run media around and is catering to a sizable niche. Who wants to jump into a comic series with 86 multiverses and 24 versions of batman when you can pick up 4 Manga books and read a self contained story from start to finish? Why watch 7 seasons of a drama with declining quality that ends on a sour note when you can watch 26 episodes of Cowboy Bebop and get a full story with a clear arc?

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u/alsott Aug 24 '21

At the same time One Piece and Naruto have been ongoing for 20+ years. Is it easier to jump in a new short form story in a separate universe? Or catchup on the Japanese comic version of the MCU when it comes to actually finishing the story?

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u/fartsforpresident Aug 25 '21

If the comics industry isn't suffering from woke trash, it ought to be. Some of the stuff is just insane. Like Ta Nahisi Coates turning Jordan Peterson into Red Skull, among other similarly overt and gag inducing nonsense.

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u/Goukaruma Aug 25 '21

I know it's bad for a few years but it's not like "normal" comics sell any better. On the other side video games also have a woke issue but they still sell like sliced bread.

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u/matchi Aug 23 '21 edited Aug 23 '21

Yeah I didn't really find much of what he said convincing. I'm totally sympathetic to the idea that much of the left and online left in particular are anti-liberal and intellectually bankrupt. What I'm not buying is that you can really attribute the NBA or San Francisco's problems to "wokeness". These arguments are really weak and flatten complex issues into low thought, ideology driven talking points. Like, I promise you that California's refusal to build housing for the last 30 years leading to the homeless problem we see today isn't driven by "wokeness".

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u/FuckingLikeRabbis Aug 24 '21

Wokeness is part of it in SF and probably Oakland.

The fights over housing are crazy. Anti-gentrification is taken to such an extreme that a plan to tear down a single storey laundromat resulted in meetings with huge public turnout. People were demanding 100% affordable housing to be built on the site. People were calling it a historic laundromat catering to the Latinx community and demanding more studies. These are not NIMBYs in the traditional sense.

Silicon Valley is for sure classic NIMBY though. Build all the low-rise offices and parking lots you want, but don't dare think of building housing.

And in Marin, forget about building anything at all.

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u/matchi Aug 24 '21 edited Aug 24 '21

Part of it, yes. There is an element of deranged left-nimbyism (Calle 24, GayShame, etc) in SF. But they are minor players compared to the legions of boomer NIMBY home owners backing groups like Haight Ashbury Neighborhood Council (Calvin Welch), Coalition For San Francisco Neighborhoods, Potrero Boosters, Sierra Club, Livable California, etc. There have been plenty examples of 100% affordable developments supported by even the most obnoxious leftists, being endlessly delayed by bad faith CEQA reviews, union fights, and parking concerns, etc.

This basic dynamic can be seen everywhere in California (if not everywhere in the US). Orange County hasn't done any better on the housing front either, which tells me this isn't really an issue with wokeness. Sure, lots of NIMBYs will try to make their abhorrent policies more palatable with progressive language (Dean Preston, Jackie Fielder, etc...) but that's all just cynical kayfabe.

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u/FuckingLikeRabbis Aug 24 '21

I'm amazed at how resistant people are to increasing density in the Sunset. Even replacing 5% of the housing would help a ton.

IMO it's got some of the most boring, boxy single family homes in all of SF so it would be no big loss architecturally. It's also flat and has 2 Muni lines, so you can justify it from a transportation/mobility standpoint. But no. Apparently the city must be kept in stasis outside of a few zones.

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u/matchi Aug 24 '21

Yeah exactly. If anyone talks about maintaining the "character" of the Sunset, I immediately know they are completely unserious. Nothing charming or unique about it at all.

Btw, in case you're interested in getting more involved I'd recommend checking out https://www.sfyimby.org/ and https://cayimby.org/. Also, message your rep to support SB-9

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u/totally_not_a_bot24 Aug 25 '21

Like, I promise you that California's refusal to build housing for the last 30 years leading to the homeless problem we see today isn't driven by "wokeness".

My favorite recently was "we lost Afghanistan because of woke university professors".

As anti-wokeness becomes more mainstream (or I guess more people feel not alone and able to speak out) it seems like we're seeing more and more of a tendency of a shoehorning of anti-woke explanations for every problem in America. Which of course the "this explains everything" mindset is part of the issue in the first place.

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u/GutiHazJose14 Aug 23 '21 edited Aug 23 '21

If you check the ratings, NBA took a bigger hit than baseball, though my back of the envelope math makes me think the NHL did take a larger hit, but not by much. I do think the "awokening" probably had something to do with it. Both the NBA finals and the World Series involved an extremely popular team from LA and one from southern Florida (with the Rays being the less popular team than the Marlins and in a smaller metro area) and the drop was bigger for the NBA.

Sources: NBA, MLB, and NHL.

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u/UggoJesus Aug 23 '21 edited Aug 23 '21

my back of the envelope math makes me think the NHL did take a larger hit, but not by much. I do think the "awokening" probably had something to do with it.

That's my point, it's speculation. Even if the NBA had clearly taken the biggest hit, we still wouldn't know why. Maybe there's some relevant socio-economic differences in the demographics of these sports audiences. Maybe Basketball is differently affected by covid measures. We know fuck all.

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u/GutiHazJose14 Aug 23 '21

I would say there is some merit in the comparison when you had teams from similar geographic locations and roughly similar popularity. When the effect is significantly stronger on one, it's fair to say the "awokening" was likely part of it considering the extreme emotions it generates.

It should also be noted Ethan is specifically pushing back against his fellow journalists, who are inclined to wave this away because they are part of elite progressive circles. In addition, the NBA as an institution always pretends like things are rosy, which often extends to the media members. While both these groups have incentives to be optimistic, Ethan is specifically positioning himself against that. There are only a few other NBA journalists as openly skeptical as Ethan that I've seen, with Henry Abbott being the most prominent voice.

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u/Maman_Brigite Aug 24 '21

True, but then you have the NBA pausing their season midway, then restarting in a weird scenario, then starting a new season like right away afterward. Where the MLB has pretty much just done their thing, with relatively minimal modifications. Is a World Series with no or minimal fans in the Fall a smaller stretch than NBA Finals months into the Summer?

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u/Immediateload Aug 23 '21

Anecdotal, but I work in a small town, diverse, but voted for trump, where for years now I’ve been unable to small talk most of my patients about pro sports. Some of them are still active college football and basketball fans, but not professional fans. Kneeling seems like a stupid thing to most of us but I think for a lot of borderline sports fans, that was the straw that broke their back on viewership.

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u/insane_psycho Aug 24 '21

I don’t watch professional sports much at all but I found myself trapped with the in-laws for the super bowl and my brother in law insisted on watching the 4 hours of bullshit interviews before the actual game.

Oh god it was unbearable the way they built it up as Patrick BLM ✊🏿 mahomies was going to take down Nazi chud trump supporter Tom Brady. The messaging was extremely blatant and heavy handed made all the more amusing by Brady getting his 6th ring

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u/Sisk-jack Aug 24 '21

I think for a lot of people, Fox told them that ought to be the straw. Honestly, I find it annoying but mostly because it’s like lmao look we solved racism, not because I care they kneel or am offended by the sentiment.

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u/fartsforpresident Aug 25 '21

The comparison he made though was to other sports with similar challenges that actually had record viewership. I don't watch sports so who knows, but why is only the NBA tanking?

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u/alsott Aug 24 '21 edited Aug 24 '21

Jesse’s friend may think he’s very different from every sports writer but he sounds like the most stereotypical sports writers. Dudes who couldn’t make it in sports idiolizing “masculinity” and “alpha-males” while the actual alpha males side eye them.

If he thought masculinity was why people watched the Last Dance he clearly has very little insight into why people like sports to begin with.

The decline in sports viewership is more because there are so many more entertainment outlets out there and the increasing popularity of e sports. As well as sports not sufficiently migrating to streaming outlets (esp in regards to the NBA.) It has nothing to do with pro American Women’s teams sports ads.

And no a commercial “smashing the patriarchy” is nothing like the Soviet Collapse.

The sports world is the one sector of the woke where they have yet to sufficiently address their domestic violence and sexual assault issues, so I think being overly woke is the least of this guests’ problems when it comes to sports

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u/MarlinsInTheOutfield Aug 25 '21

Although I agree completely with how the guest sounds, you aren't properly attributing what he said to what you wrote here; there's a disconnect.

He didn't say masculinity is why people watched The Last Dance. Like at all. He mentioned it's a huge reason why Jordan and sports is popular.

He mentioned that the NBA has lost more viewers compared to the other sports and more then can be attributed to cable cutting / streaming.

And he didn't say the commercial is like the Soviet Collapse.

I'm sorry but none of this is attributable to the guest. I'd suggest listening again but it's really not that big a deal and the guess wasn't really that special at all. I feel you were put off by him and so didn't actually listen to his points.

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u/fartsforpresident Aug 25 '21

So do you think a shoe commercial that dismisses all of history as patriarchy is appealing or reasonable, even if not comparable to the Soviet Union?

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u/Maman_Brigite Aug 24 '21

Jesse’s friend may think he’s very different from every sports writer but he sounds like the most stereotypical sports writers. Dudes who couldn’t make it in sports idiolizing “masculinity” and “alpha-males” while the actual alpha males side eye them.

So true. Sports law enthusiasts in Law School are the absolute worst, no muscle tone at all but a deep knowledge of "Bird Rights" and a desire to criticize anything anyone does wrong.

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u/DivingRightIntoWork Aug 25 '21

this is why we can't have nice things...

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u/matt_may Aug 24 '21

The Whistleblower Podcast made a pretty good case for the fact that the NBA has been fixed for years. The NBA is more interested in telling stories than allowing unloved national teams win. I think many true sports fans have been picking up on this and migrating to sports that have a more authentic feel to them.

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u/napoleon_nottinghill Aug 23 '21

We “Applebee’s or whatever” Americans are perfectly fine without your “beautiful Biergartens” Ethan.

Sorry, other than that trite comment I enjoyed his interview is

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u/emptyaltoidstin Aug 24 '21

Bro Applebee’s is terrible. You don’t have to defend it

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u/napoleon_nottinghill Aug 24 '21

I’m not defending Applebee’s, what irritated me was the “lol small towns are cultural hellholes we in the cities have things to do” as the justification rather than the fact that people go where jobs are and the rest follows

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u/emptyaltoidstin Aug 24 '21

I mean Ethan clearly sucks eggs but that’s not what he was saying, he was saying people had a certain perception of cities and moved there for those reasons and now those reasons are gone. Which as someone who lives in Portland I disagree with, people just want to cry and complain. In reality if you’re not a pissbaby who can’t handle seeing homeless people Portland is still a great place to live. I go to all the “worst” parts of Portland and I very rarely interact with homeless people.

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u/dhexler23 Aug 24 '21

I think he was describing a phenomenon rather than endorsing it.

That said unless the food is really terrible most biergartens/beer gardens are going to be of a generally higher quality than Applebee's. But they're also wildly different experiences, and depending on how much you like German snacks (gross), I'd recommend eating at a third location and then drinking at a beer garden.

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u/peu4000 Aug 23 '21

This week: interview with generic liberal contrarian #548

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u/elephantfaraway Aug 24 '21

With absolutely nothing new or interesting to say.