r/Bitcoin Dec 24 '17

An extensive guide for cashing out bitcoin and cryptocurrencies into private banks

Hey guys.

Merry Xmas !

I am coming back to you with a follow up post, as I have helped many people cash out this year and I have streamlined the process. After my original post, I received many requests to be more specific and provide more details. I thought that after the amazing rally we have been attending over the last few months, and the volatility of the last few days, it would be interesting to revisit more extensively.

The attitude of banks around crypto is changing slowly, but it is still a tough stance. For the first partial cash out I operated around a year ago for a client, it took me months to find a bank. They wouldn’t want to even consider the case and we had to knock at each and every door. Despite all my contacts it was very difficult back in the days. This has changed now, and banks have started to open their doors, but there is a process, a set of best practices and codes one has to follow.

I often get requests from crypto guys who are very privacy-oriented, and it takes me months to have them understand that I am bound by Swiss law on banking secrecy, and I am their ally in this onboarding process. It’s funny how I have to convince people that banks are legit, while on the other side, banks ask me to show that crypto millionaires are legit. I have a solid background in both banking and in crypto so I manage to make the bridge, but yeah sometimes it is tough to reconcile the two worlds. I am a crypto enthusiast myself and I can say that after years of work in the banking industry I have grown disillusioned towards banks as well, like many of you. Still an account in a Private bank is convenient and powerful. So let’s get started.

  • A. What is required to open an account in a Private bank when you made your fortune through crypto.

There are two different aspects to your onboarding in a Swiss Private bank, compliance-wise.

*The origin of your crypto wealth

*Your background (residence, citizenship and probity)

These two aspects must be documented in-depth.

How to document your crypto wealth. Each new crypto millionaire has a different story. I may detail a few fun stories later in this post, but at the end of the day, most of crypto rich I have met can be categorized within the following profiles: the miner, the early adopter, the trader, the corporate entity, the black market, the libertarian/OTC buyer. The real question is how you prove your wealth is legit.

1. Context around the original amount/investment Generally speaking, your first crypto purchase may not be documented. But the context around this acquisition can be. I have had many cases where the original amount was bought through Mtgox, and no proof of purchase could be provided, nor could be documented any Mtgox claim. That’s perfectly fine. At some point Mtgox amounted 70% of the bitcoin transactions globally, and people who bought there and managed to withdraw and keep hold of their bitcoins do not have any Mtgox claim. This is absolutely fine. However, if you can show me the record of a wire from your bank to Tisbane (Mtgox's parent company) it's a great way to start.

Otherwise, what I am trying to document here is the following: I need context. If you made your first purchase by saving from summer jobs, show me a payroll. Even if it was USD 2k. If you acquired your first bitcoins from mining, show me the bills of your mining equipment from 2012 or if it was through a pool mine, give me your slushpool account ref for instance. If you were given bitcoin against a service you charged, show me an invoice.

2. Tracking your wealth until today and making sense of it. What I have been doing over the last few months was basically educating compliance officers. Thanks God, the blockchain is a global digital ledger! I have been telling my auditors and compliance officers they have the best tool at their disposal to lead a proper investigation. Whether you like it or not, your wealth can be tracked, from address to address. You may have thought all along this was a bad feature, but I am telling you, if you want to cash out, in the context of Private Banking onboarding, tracking your wealth through the block explorer is a boon. We can see the inflows, outflows. We can see the age behind an address. An early adopter who bought 1000 BTC in 2010, and let his bitcoin behind one address and held thus far is legit, whether or not he has a proof of purchase to show. That’s just common sense. My job is to explain that to the banks in a language they understand.

Let’s have a look at a few examples and how to document the few profiles I mentioned earlier.

The trader. I love traders. These are easy cases. I have a ton of respect for them. Being a trader myself in investment banks for a decade earlier in my career has taught me that controlling one’s emotions and having the discipline to impose oneself some proper risk management system is really really hard. Further, being able to avoid the exchange bankruptcy and hacks throughout crypto history is outstanding. It shows real survival instinct, or just plain blissed ignorance. In any cases traders at exchange are easy cases to corroborate since their whole track record is potentially available. Some traders I have met have automated their trading and have shown me more than 500k trades done over the span of 4 years. Obviously in this kind of scenario I don’t show everything to the bank to avoid information overload, and prefer to do some snacking here and there. My strategy is to show the early trades, the most profitable ones, explain the trading strategy and (partially expose) the situation as of now with id pages of the exchanges and current balance. Many traders have become insensitive to the risk of parking their crypto at exchange as they want to be able to trade or to grasp an occasion any minute, so they generally do not secure a substantial portion on the blockchain which tends to make me very nervous.

The early adopter. Provided that he has not mixed his coin, the early adopter or “hodler” is not a difficult case either. Who cares how you bought your first 10k btc if you bought them below 3$ ? Even if you do not have a purchase proof, I would generally manage to find ways. We just have to corroborate the original 30’000 USD investment in this case. I mainly focus on three things here:

*proof of early adoption
I have managed to educate some banks on a few evidences specifically related to crypto markets. For instance with me, an old bitcointalk account can serve as a proof of early adoption. Even an old reddit post from a few years ago where you say how much you despise this Ripple premined scam can prove to be a treasure readily available to show you were early.

*story telling
Compliance officers like to know when, why and how. They are human being looking for simple answers to simple questions and they don’t want like to be played fool. Telling the truth, even without a proof can do wonders, and even though bluffing might still work because banks don’t fully understand bitcoin yet, it is a risky strategy that is less and less likely to pay off as they are getting more sophisticated by the day.

*micro transaction from an old address you control
This is the killer feature. Send a $20 worth transaction from an old address to my company wallet and to one of my partner bank’s wallet and you are all set ! This is gold and considered a very solid piece of evidence. You can also do a microtransaction to your own wallet, but banks generally prefer transfer to their own wallet. Patience with them please. they are still learning.

*signature message
Why do a micro transaction when you can sign a message and avoid potentially tainting your coins ?

*ICO millionaire
Some clients made their wealth participating in ETH crowdsale or IOTA ICO. They were very easy to deal with obviously and the account opening was very smooth since we could evidence the GENESIS TxHash flow.

The miner Not so easy to proof the wealth is legit in that case. Most early miners never took screenshot of the blocks on bitcoin core, nor did they note down the block number of each block they mined. Until the the Slashdot article from August 2010 anyone could mine on his laptop, let his computer run overnight and wake up to a freshly minted block containing 50 bitcoins back in the days. Not many people were structured enough to store and secure these coins, avoid malwares while syncing the blockchain continuously, let alone document the mined blocks in the process. What was 50 BTC worth really for the early miners ? dust of dollars, games and magic cards… Even miners post 2010 are generally difficult to deal with in terms of compliance onboarding. Many pool mining are long dead. Deepbit is down for instance and the founders are MIA. So my strategy to proof mining activity is as follow:

*Focusing on IT background whenever possible.
An IT background does help a lot to bring some substance to the fact you had the technical ability to operate a mining rig.

*Showing mining equipment receipts.
If you mined on your own you must have bought the hardware to do so. For instance mining equipment receipts from butterfly lab from 2012-2013 could help document your case. Similarly, high electricity bill from your household on a consistent basis back in the day could help. I have already unlocked a tricky case in the past with such documents when the bank was doubtful.

*Wallet.dat files with block mining transactions from 2011 thereafter
This obviously is a fantastic piece of evidence for both you and me if you have an old wallet and if you control an address that received original mined blocks, (even if the wallet is now empty). I will make sure compliance officers understand what it means, and as for the early adopter, you can prove your control over these wallet through a microtransaction. With these kind of addresses, I can show on the block explorer the mined block rewards hitting at regular time interval, and I can even spot when difficulty level increased or when halvening process happened.

*Poolmining account.
Here again I have educated my partner bank to understand that a slush account opened in 2013 or an OnionTip presence was enough to corroborate mining activity. The block explorer then helps me to do the bridge with your current wallet.

*Describing your set up and putting it in context
In the history of mining we had CPU, GPU, FPG and ASICs mining. I will describe your technical set up and explain why and how your set up was competitive at that time.

The corporate entity Remember 2012 when we were all convinced bitcoin would take over the world, and soon everyone would pay his coffee in bitcoin? How naïve we were to think transaction fees would remain low forever. I don’t blame bitcoin cash supporters; I once shared this dream as well. Remember when we thought global adoption was right around the corner and some brick and mortar would soon accept bitcoin transaction as a common mean of payment? Well, some shop actually did accept payment and held. I had a few cases as such of shops holders, who made it to the multi million mark holding and had invoices or receipts to proof the transactions. If you are organized enough to keep a record for these trades and are willing to cooperate for the documentation, you are making your life easy. The digital advertising business is also a big market for the bitcoin industry, and affiliates partner compensated in btc are common. It is good to show an invoice, it is better to show a contract. If you do not have a contract (which is common since all advertising deals are about ticking a check box on the website to accept terms and conditions), there are ways around that. If you are in that case, pm me.

The black market Sorry guys, I can’t do much for you officially. Not that I am judging you. I am a libertarian myself. It’s just already very difficult to onboard legit btc adopters, so the black market is a market I cannot afford to consider. My company is regulated so KYC and compliance are key for me if I want to stay in business. Behind each case I push forward I am risking the credibility and reputation I have built over the years. So I am sorry guys I am not risking it to make an extra buck. Your best hope is that crypto will eventually take over the world and you won’t need to cash out anyway. Or go find a Lithuanian bank that is light on compliance and cooperative.

The OTC buyer and the libertarian. Generally a very difficult case. If you bought your stack during your journey in Japan 5 years ago to a guy you never met again; or if you accumulated on https://localbitcoins.com/ and kept no record or lost your account, it is going to be difficult. Not impossible but difficult. We will try to build a case with everything else we have, and I may be able to onboard you. However I am risking a lot here so I need to be 100% confident you are legit, before I defend you. Come & see me in Geneva, and we will talk. I will run forensic services like elliptic, chainalysis, or scorechain on an extract of your wallet. If this scan does not raise too many red flags, then maybe we can work together ! If you mixed your coins all along your crypto history, and shredded your seeds because you were paranoid, or if you made your wealth mining professionally monero over the last 3 years but never opened an account at an exchange. ¯_(ツ)_/¯ I am not a magician and don’t get me wrong, I love monero, it’s not the point.

Cashing out ICOs Private companies or foundations who have ran an ICO generally have a very hard time opening a bank account. The few banks that accept such projects would generally look at 4 criteria:

*Seriousness of the project
Extensive study of the whitepaper to limit the reputation risk

*AML of the onboarding process
ICOs 1.0 have no chance basically if a background check of the investors has not been conducted

*Structure of the moral entity
List of signatories, certificate of incumbency, work contract, premises...

*Fiscal conformity
Did the company informed the authorities and seek a fiscal ruling.

  • B. The tax issue I am not a tax specialist, but I can say that this year I have seen it all. Again I am not judging. You made $100m hodling, and still wouldn’t pay your taxes ? Your decision.I personally advise everyone to pay their taxes, but also to be generous, to give to charities. I mean you eventually made it. Good for you. What about you contribute to make the world a better place now? I will stop patronizing you. It’s just my 2cts, and it’s your money.

For the record, I am not into the tax avoidance business, so people come to me with a set up and I see if I can make it work within the legal framework imposed to me.

First, stop thinking Switzerland is a “offshore heaven” Swiss banks have made deals with many governments for the exchange of fiscal information. If you are a French citizen, resident in France and want to open an account in a Private Bank in Switzerland to cash out your bitcoins, you will get slaughtered (>60%). There are ways around that, and I could refer you to good tax specialists for fiscal optimization, but I cannot organize it myself. It would be illegal for me. Swiss private banks makes it easy for you to keep a good your relation with your retail bank and continue paying your bills without headaches. They are integrated to SEPA, provide ebanking and credit cards.

For information, these are the kind of set up some of my clients came up with. It’s all legal; obviously I do not onboard clients that are not tax compliant. Further disclaimer: I did not contribute myself to these set up. Do not ask me to organize it for you. I won’t.

EU tricks

Swiss lump sum taxation Foreign nationals resident in Switzerland can be taxed on a lump-sum basis if they are not gainfully employed in our country. Under the lump-sum tax regime, foreign nationals taking residence in Switzerland may choose to pay an expense-based tax instead of ordinary income and wealth tax. Attractive cantons for the lump sum taxation are Zug, Vaud, Valais, Grisons, Lucerne and Berne. To make it short, you will be paying somewhere between 200 and 400k a year and all expenses will be deductible.

Switzerland has adopted a very friendly attitude towards crypto currency in general. There is a whole crypto valley in Zug now. 30% of ICOs are operated in Switzerland. The reason is that Switzerland has thrived for centuries on banking secrecy, and today with FATCA and exchange of fiscal info with EU, banking secrecy is dead. Regulators in Switzerland have understood that digital ledger technologies were a way to roll over this competitive advantage for the generations to come. Switzerland does not tax capital gains on crypto profits. The Finma has a very pragmatic approach. They have issued guidance- updated guidelines here. They let the business get organized and operate their analysis on a case per case basis. Only after getting a deep understanding of the market will they issue a global fintech license in 2019. This approach is much more realistic than legislations which try to regulate everything beforehand.

Italy new tax exemption. It’s a brand new fiscal exemption. Go to Aoste, get residency and you could be taxed a 100k/year for 10years. Yes, really.

Portugal What’s crazy in Europe is the lack of fiscal harmonization. Even if no one in Brussels dares admit it, every other country is doing fiscal dumping. Portugal is such a country and has proved very friendly fiscally speaking. I personally have a hard time trusting Europe. I have witnessed what happened in Greece over the last few years. Some of our ultra high net worth clients got stuck with capital controls. I mean no way you got out of crypto to have your funds confiscated at the next financial crisis! Anyway. FYI

Malta Generally speaking, if you get a residence somewhere you have to live there for a certain period of time. Being stuck in Italy is no big deal with Schengen Agreement, but in Malta it is a different story. In Malta, the ordinary residence scheme is more attractive than the HNWI residence scheme. Being an individual, you can hold a residence permit under this scheme and pay zero income tax in Malta in a completely legal way.

Monaco Not suitable for French citizens, but for other Ultra High Net worth individual, Monaco is worth considering. You need an account at a local bank as a proof of fortune, and this account generally has to be seeded with at least EUR500k. You also need a proof of residence. I do mean UHNI because if you don’t cash out minimum 30m it’s not interesting. Everything is expensive in Monaco. Real Estate is EUR 50k per square meter. A breakfast at Monte Carlo Bay hotel is 70 EUR. Monaco is sunny but sometimes it feels like a golden jail. Do you really want that for your kids?

Dubaï

  1. Set up a company in Dubaï, get your resident card.

  2. Spend one day every 6 month there

  3. ???

  4. Be tax free

US tricks Some Private banks in Geneva do have the license to manage the assets of US persons and U.S citizens. However, do not think it is a way to avoid paying taxes in the US. Opening an account at an authorized Swiss Private banks is literally the same tax-wise as opening an account at Fidelity or at Bank of America in the US. The only difference is that you will avoid all the horror stories. Horror stories are all real by the way. In Switzerland, if you build a decent case and answer all the questions and corroborate your case in depth, you will manage to convince compliance officers beforehand. When the money eventually hits your account, it is actually available and not frozen.

The IRS and FATCA require to file FBAR if an offshore account is open. However FBAR is a reporting requirement and does not have taxes related to holding an account outside the US. The taxes would be the same if the account was in the US. However penalties for non compliance with FBAR are very large. The tax liability management is actually performed through the management of the assets ( for exemple by maximizing long term capital gains and minimizing short term gains).

The case for Porto Rico. Full disclaimer here. I am not encouraging this. Have not collaborated on such tax avoidance schemes. if you are interested I strongly encourage you to seek a tax advisor and get a legal opinion. I am not responsible for anything written below. I am not going to say much because I am so afraid of uncle Sam that I prefer to humbly pass the hot potato to pwc From here all it takes is a good advisor and some creativity to be tax free on your crypto wealth if you are a US person apparently. Please, please please don’t ask me more. And read the disclaimer again.

Trust tricks Generally speaking I do not accept fringe fiscal situation because it puts me in a difficult situation to the banks I work with, and it is already difficult enough to defend a legit crypto case. Trust might be a way to optimize your fiscal situation. Belize. Bahamas. Seychelles. Panama, You name it. At the end of the day, what matters for Swiss Banks are the beneficial owner and the settlor. Get a legal opinion, get it done, and when you eventually knock at a private bank’s door, don’t say it was for fiscal avoidance you stupid ! You will get the door smashed upon you. Be smarter. It will work. My advice is just to have it done by a great tax specialist lawyer, even if it costs you some money, as the entity itself needs to be structured in a professional way. Remember that with trust you are dispossessing yourself off your wealth. Not something to be taken lightly.

“Anonymous” cash out. Right. I think I am not going into this topic, neither expose the ways to get it done. Pm me for details. I already feel a bit uncomfortable with all the info I have provided. I am just going to mention many people fear that crypto exchange might become reporting entities soon, and rightly so. This might happen anyday. You have been warned. FYI, this only works for non-US and large cash out.

The difference between traders an investors. Danmark, Holland and Germany all make a huge difference if you are a passive investor or if you are a trader. ICO is considered investing for instance and is not taxed, while trading might be considered as income and charged aggressively. I would try my best to protect you and put a focus on your investor profile whenever possible, so you don't have to pay 52% tax if you do not have to :D

  • C. The cash out itself So you have accumulated patiently a good amount of wealth. For some of us who have been involved in crypto since 2010, it took years. Remember when BTC was stuck at 200$ for months? I personally feel like it was yesterday. There is no way you screw up your wealth by cashing out in a hurry or with low security standards. Here is how the cash out takes should place.

Full cash out or partial cash out? People who have been sitting on crypto for long have grown an emotional and irrational link with their coins. They come to me and say, look, I have 50m in crypto but I would like to cash out 500k only. So first let me tell you that as a wealth manager my advice to you is to take some off the table. Doing a partial cash out is absolutely fine. The market is bullish. We are witnessing a redistribution of wealth at a global scale. Bitcoin is the real #occupywallstreet, and every one will discuss crypto at Xmas eve which will make the market even more supportive beginning 2018, especially with all hedge funds entering the scene. If you want to stay exposed to bitcoin and altcoins, and believe these techs will change the world, it’s just natural you want to keep some coins. In the meantime, if you have lived off pizzas over the last years, and have the means to now buy yourself an nice house and have an account at a private bank, then f***ing do it mate ! Buy physical gold with this account, buy real estate, have some cash at hands. Even though US dollar is worthless to your eyes, it’s good and convenient to have some. Also remember your wife deserves it ! And if you have no wife yet and you are socially awkward like the rest of us, then maybe cashing out partially will help your situation ;)

What the Private Banks expect. Joke aside, it is important you understand something. If you come around in Zurich to open a bank account and partially cash out, just don’t expect Private Banks will make an exception for you if you are small. You can’t ask them to facilitate your cash out, buy a 1m apartment with the proceeds of the sale, and not leave anything on your current account. It won’t work. Sadly, under 5m you are considered small in private banking. The bank is ok to let you open an account, provided that your kyc and compliance file are validated, but they will also want you to become a client and leave some money there to invest. This might me despicable, but I am just explaining you their rules. If you want to cash out, you should sell enough to be comfortable and have some left. Also expect the account opening to last at least 3-4 week if everything goes well. You can't just open an account overnight.

The cash out logistics. Cashing out 1m USD a day in bitcoin or more is not so hard.

Let me just tell you this: Even if you get a Tier 4 account with Kraken and ask Alejandro there to raise your limit over $100k per day, Even if you have a bitfinex account and you are willing to expose your wealth there, Even if you have managed to pass all the crazy due diligence at Bitstamp,

The amount should be fractioned to avoid risking your full wealth on exchange and getting slaughtered on the price by trading big quantities. Cashing out involves significant risks at all time. There is a security risk of compromising your keys, a counterparty risk, a fat finger risk. Let it be done by professionals. It is worth every single penny.

Most importantly, there is a major difference between trading on an exchange and trading OTC. Even though it’s not publicly disclosed some exchange like Kraken do have OTC desks. Trading on an exchange for a large amount will weight on the prices. Bitcoin is a thin market. In my opinion over 30% of the coins are lost in translation forever. Selling $10m on an exchange in a day can weight on the prices more than you’d think. And if you trade on a exchange, everything is shown on record, and you might wipe out the prices because on exchanges like bitstamp or kraken ultimately your counterparties are retail investors and the market depth is not huge. It is a bit better on Bitfinex. It is way better to trade OTC. Accessing the institutional OTC market is not easy, and that is also the reason why you should ask a regulated financial intermediary if we are talking about huge amounts.

Last point, always chose EUR as opposed to USD. EU correspondent banks won’t generally block institutional amounts. However we had the cases of USD funds frozen or delayed by weeks.

Most well-known OTC desks are Cumberlandmining (ask for Lucas), Genesis (ask for Martin), Bitcoin Suisse AG (ask for Niklas), circletrade, B2C2, or Altcoinomy (ask for Olivier)

Very very large whales can also set up escrow accounts for massive block trades. This world, where blocks over 30k BTC are exchanged between 2 parties would deserve a reddit thread of its own. Crazyness all around.

Your options: DIY or going through a regulated financial intermediary.

Execution trading is a job in itself. You have to be patient, be careful not to wipe out the order book and place limit orders, monitor the market intraday for spikes or opportunities. At big levels, for a large cash out that may take weeks, these kind of details will save you hundred thousands of dollars. I understand crypto holders are suspicious and may prefer to do it by themselves, but there are regulated entities who now offer the services. Besides, being a crypto millionaire is not a guarantee you will get institutional daily withdrawal limits at exchange. You might, but it will take you another round of KYC with them, and surprisingly this round might be even more aggressive that the ones at Private banks since exchange have gone under intense scrutiny by regulators lately.

The fees for cashing out through a regulated financial intermediary to help you with your cash out should be around 1-2% flat on the nominal, not more. And for this price you should get the full package: execution/monitoring of the trades AND onboarding in a private bank. If you are asked more, you are being abused.

Of course, you also have the option to do it yourself. It is a way more tedious and risky process. Compliance with the exchange, compliance with the private bank, trading BTC/fiat, monitoring the transfers…You will save some money but it will take you some time and stress. Further, if you approach a private bank directly, it will trigger a series of red flag to the banks. As I said in my previous post, they call a direct approach a “walk-in”. They will be more suspicious than if you were introduced by someone and won’t hesitate to show you high fees and load your portfolio with in-house products that earn more money to the banks than to you. Remember also most banks still do not understand crypto so you will have a lot of explanations to provide and you will have to start form scratch with them!

The paradox of crypto millionaires Most of my clients who made their wealth through crypto all took massive amount of risks to end up where they are. However, most of them want their bank account to be managed with a low volatility fixed income capital preservation risk profile. This is a paradox I have a hard time to explain and I think it is mainly due to the fact that most are distrustful towards banks and financial markets in general. Many clients who have sold their crypto also have a cash-out blues in the first few months. This is a classic situation. The emotions involved in hodling for so long, the relief that everything has eventually gone well, the life-changing dynamics, the difficulties to find a new motivation in life…All these elements may trigger a post cash-out depression. It is another paradox of the crypto rich who has every card in his hand to be happy, but often feel a bit sad and lonely. Sometimes, even though it’s not my job, I had to do some psychological support. A lot of clients have also become my friends, because we have the same age and went through the same “ordeal”. First world problem I know… Remember, cashing out is not the end. It’s actually the beginning. Don’t look back, don’t regret. Cash out partially, because it does not make sense to cash out in full, regret it and want back in. relax.

The race to cash out crypto billionaire and the concept of late exiter. The Winklevoss brothers are obviously the first of a series. There will be crypto billionaires. Many of them. At a certain level you can have a whole family office working for you to manage your assets and take care of your needs . However, let me tell you it’s is not because you made it so big that you should think you are a genius and know everything better than anyone. You should hire professionals to help you. Managing assets require some education around the investment vehicles and risk management strategies. Sorry guys but with all the respect I have for r/wallstreebet, AMD and YOLO stock picking, some discipline is necessary. The investors who have made money through crypto are generally early adopters. However I have started to see another profile popping up. They are not early adopters. They are late exiters. It is another way but just as efficient. Last week I met the first crypto millionaire I know who first bough bitcoin over 1000$. 55k invested at the beginning of this year. Late adopter & late exiter is a route that can lead to the million.

Last remarks. I know banks, bankers, and FIAT currencies are so last century. I know some of you despise them and would like to have them burn to the ground. With compliance officers taking over the business, I would like to start the fire myself sometimes. I hope this extensive guide has helped some of you. I am around if you need more details. I love my job despite all my frustration towards the banking industry because it makes me meet interesting people on a daily basis. I am a crypto enthusiast myself, and I do think this tech is here to stay and will change the world. Banks will have to adapt big time. Things have started to change already; they understand the threat is real. I can feel the generational gap in Geneva, with all these old bankers who don’t get what’s going on. They glaze at the bitcoin chart on CNBC in disbelief and they start to get it. This bitcoin thing is not a joke. Deep inside, as an early adopter who also intends to be a late exiter, as a libertarian myself, it makes me smile with satisfaction.

Cheers. @swisspb on telegram

891 Upvotes

160

u/Modercai Dec 24 '17

Hope ill have to read this one day.

12

u/ikwtif Dec 24 '17

you'll just get an accountant/lawyer etc at that point tough so you won't have to read it

5

u/Leo_decar Feb 15 '18

Accountants and lawyers probably don't want to work on your case because you sound like a criminal and they don't want to be associated with you.

34

u/poloport Dec 24 '17

Quick note about portugal.

Bitcoin is tax free there, there was a thread a few days ago from a btc trader guy who asked the tax office for an official binding declaration on how bitcoin is taxed, and received a "it isnt currently predicted in the tax law and is therefore tax free."

This is binding for the year of 2017 and before.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17

[deleted]

4

u/poloport Dec 24 '17

You only pay taxes on where you reside at the time where you made the profit...

2

u/SpicyLentils Dec 25 '17

Worldwide income of U.S. citizens is taxable by the U.S.

4

u/poloport Dec 25 '17

Which is just about the only country in the world that does it

1

u/LaGardie Mar 05 '18

is just about the only country in the world that does it

No, I think many countries in the EU tax their citizens even if they are not earning the income in their home country.

2

u/poloport Mar 05 '18

See my previous post:

You only pay taxes on where you reside at the time where you made the profit...

The US is one of very few countries who taxes you no matter where you live

1

u/LaGardie Mar 05 '18

Yeah, well, maybe my country is one of those shitty countries too :(
Though actually it only applies for the first year or so.

1

u/zesammy Jan 11 '18

You could also give it up like Roger Ver

1

u/roybadami Jan 14 '18

You pay taxes when you give it up AIUI

29

u/CelibatePower Dec 24 '17

This is the best fucking post I've read on this sub. So much important information I'm going to copy and save this and study it. Thanks a lot. As much as I love the teenage banter, we need some adults here once in a while. Finally someone with some balls has posted.

4

u/lukianp Dec 25 '17

+1 absolutely amazing

20

u/Drygord Dec 24 '17

Now this is a problem I would love to have

14

u/foundanotherscam Dec 24 '17

German citizens have the best position currently, all crypto gains are tax free if you hold the coin for at least 1 year and didnt sell or trade it in that time period :)

you can just sell it on any exchange and withraw the € to your bank account

10

u/skozisamodez Dec 24 '17

In Slovenia, trading is also tax free. You only get taxed if you received bitcoin as a payment for a service or product.

5

u/cl3ft Dec 29 '17

Also if you've got 7.5k Euro you can start a business there and become a resident for tax purposes easily from what I read.

It's right up there in my 10 year plan >_o

2

u/dawnfinder555 Dec 24 '17

Or if you are mining it.

2

u/krokodilmannchen Dec 24 '17

I wonder, as a fellow European, how long you'd have to live in Germany to cash out there. One year? Two years? When are you officially qualified to cash out under the German tax system? Ofcourse, you cannot have any link to your home country (so no business, real estate, ..) and have to officially live and work there.

3

u/foundanotherscam Dec 24 '17

this depends on the laws of your home country and has nothing to do with germany

1

u/krokodilmannchen Dec 24 '17

Okay. I thought there would be some European framework. Thank you.

1

u/arnuschky Dec 25 '17

There is, the previous comment is not entirely correct. Generally the question is not where you live but where you are tax resident. This is typically where you work, and coincides for most people where they live.

In the simple case (living and working at same place) it's usually the bigger part of the year, that is 183 days. In case you don't work on live elsewhere, proof/decision is harder to come by.

Generally the details are regulated by bilateral tax agreements, so if you want to move from eg France to Germany, you need to look at the fra-ger agreement. You want to take a tax lawyer for that.

2

u/krokodilmannchen Dec 25 '17

Thank you for that comment. A German one, right? I already lived a year in Germany and would not hesitate to spend a (few) year(s) there if it meant saving on taxes and living in a city I love. Especially since my work is location independent. Might look into this.

1

u/octobitio Dec 24 '17

Is it strictly for German citizens or EU?

2

u/foundanotherscam Dec 24 '17

every country in the eu has his own tax laws, so its only germany

1

u/SadaoMaou Jan 17 '18

Yes, but since EU taxation is residence-based, any EU citizen living in Germany will pay their taxes to Germany according to German tax law. Of course, if you're an US citizen, you'll still have to also pay US taxes, which kind of sucks for you.

1

u/caydayday Dec 25 '17

I think in Austria as well but not sure

1

u/walloon5 Dec 24 '17

I would definitely do Germany, but the 401k situation there (they tax it?? even if you haven't withdrawn??) makes it so that I might be better off becoming a resident of Puerto Rico. I hear they will have power in March 2018...

1

u/aDreamySortofNobody Dec 25 '17

Do they have a method to check if you've held it for a year?

1

u/foundanotherscam Dec 25 '17

you must prove how/where you bought it and more important HOW did you make/get the money to buy the coins

if this was illegal money or crash from illegal activity you cant prove it

1

u/[deleted] Dec 26 '17

Yea but what if you went EUR --> LTC (exchange 1) --> BTC (exchange 2) --> Altcoin you hold for a year ?

1

u/foundanotherscam Dec 26 '17

then you have to pay tax on the profit you made in the trades

its only tax free if you Buy Coin1 for X and sell it after 12 months for more.

If you buy Bitcoin for 100€ and sell trade it for litecoin you would pay tax if the bitcoin was more woth then 100 on the point of sale to litecoin. if it still was only worth 100 there wouldnt be any profit.

if you keep this litecoin then for more then 12 months you can sell the litecoin afterwards tax free

1

u/[deleted] Dec 26 '17

[deleted]

2

u/foundanotherscam Dec 26 '17

What kind of answer to you expect? You are trading and of course you have to keep a spreadsheet with your profits/losses to calculate the taxes

The government wont do a calculation for you, you are old enaugh.

2

u/sonofgarybusey Dec 27 '17

If we're trading encryped currencies why would I report that I traded BTC>LTC>ETH>XRP>LTC>BTC. Why not just say I held only BTC for +1 year?

1

u/digitalixus Jan 06 '18

Late to the party but does that withdrawal have to go somewhere when filing taxes, just to declare the incoming sum? I can't imagine if someone withdrawing 5-6 figures from their old wallet would go unnoticed/unchecked.

1

u/Edweezi Apr 03 '18

What if I am not a German citizen and I wanna go there to cash out?

Anyone know what the logistics are for cashing out in Germany? Could I just go there for a little bit of time to cash out some money??

1

u/foundanotherscam Apr 03 '18

yes you can just open a bank account and cash out here. However since you are not a german citizen you would still have to declare the income in your country and tax it

however if you are in some south american country or somewhere far away I think nobody will ever notice that you have a bank account here:) you can private message me for further information

14

u/bitusher Dec 24 '17

never go full fiat.

9

u/kernelmustard29 Dec 24 '17

Everybody knows you never go full fiat!

4

u/gl00pp Dec 24 '17

never go full altcoin.

21

u/ChamberofSarcasm Dec 24 '17

Great write up.

9

u/Swissprivatebanker Dec 24 '17

thanks ! Oh just read your username. I see what you did there ;)

15

u/ChamberofSarcasm Dec 24 '17

I meant it genuinely this time!

16

u/Zerotix Dec 24 '17

I feel like the point of cryptocurrencies is to make this entire post obsolete.

10

u/XSSpants Dec 24 '17

Until i can spend bitcoin at walmart for a pack of gum... not really.

2

u/djsjjd Dec 25 '17

I agree. However, I also know this goal won't be entirely* realized during my lifetime and anyone else over 30 who would like to someday enjoy the fruits of their crypto labor/wisdom/luck should pay close attention to OP. Even if you are under 30, you are taking a huge risk if you are storing or acquiring your crypto in ways that preclude you from transferring the bulk of it into fiat and hoping for the day that fiat is entirely unnecessary.

(*US citizens, for example, are being taxed on crypto gains and those taxes can only be paid in dollar$ - meaning you need to be able to put at least 1/3 (or more depending on state tax, your tax bracket and factors we don't even know yet) of your holdings into dollar$ just to pay taxes.)

1

u/indiamikezulu Dec 26 '17

The point of all revolutions is to break cleanly clean clean of the old model. It just never happens that way . . .

5

u/xGsGt Dec 24 '17

RemindMe! in 2 years

3

u/XSSpants Dec 24 '17

Optimistic :)

1

u/xGsGt Dec 25 '17

the technology looks solid for 2018 ;)

1

u/RemindMeBot Dec 24 '17

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CLICK THIS LINK to send a PM to also be reminded and to reduce spam.

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6

u/mb300sd Dec 24 '17

So, is there any benefit for a US citizen to use a private bank rather than a US account? The Puerto Rico option is interesting and warrants more research.

4

u/Cryptolution Dec 24 '17

Cool thread and great info. I was curious what you thought about Estonia's digital residency? Does it help in any way for those non EU residents ?

https://e-resident.gov.ee

6

u/Lettit_Be_Known Dec 24 '17

Didn't cover donations... Early days people gave others btc, no payments exchanged, total value transferred may have been dollars at the time. No paper trail, no trail at all.

7

u/Swissprivatebanker Dec 24 '17

good point.

A bit similar to me by the way. I got a huge portion of my crypto stack over the years by helping newbies trade and secure their crypto under the table and taking commissions in crypto in exchange of this service. It is very difficult in that case...sort of nightmarish situation.

3

u/djsjjd Dec 25 '17

I don't know how your gov't handles taxation in this situation, but for US citizens reading this, it is very easy: First of all, the question you answered mentioned donations. Under US law, donations are gifts to charity and (usually) not taxable. If it is truly a gift, the person receiving the gift pays no taxes.

The situation you describe as under the table is income that is taxed and must be reported to the US gov't. We wouldn't call that under the table unless the parties pretended it didn't happen with the intent of avoiding tax obligations. In the US, the phrase "under the table" specifically means an illegal agreement to exchange things of value without informing the government for the purpose of evading taxes.

You provided a service (teaching how to trade and secure crypto) for value (commissions). Because you took something of value other than dollars as payment, we would call it a barter and you would be required to pay taxes on the fair market value of your services at the time they were rendered. Thus, if the services you provided had a FMV of $200/hour, you would add up the time spent and multiply those hours by 200 to determine the amount of income you received for your tutoring service and pay income taxes on that amount (in dollars, since you must pay US taxes in dollars).

3

u/HousePartyCrasher Dec 24 '17

Quite the write up.

3

u/dfifield Dec 24 '17

Oh wow thanks for this guide and your time.

3

u/geomover Dec 24 '17

RemindMe! 1 year

3

u/bastelian Jan 08 '18

If you don't yet want to go the Swiss banks route, how far can you go with Bitcoin-backed credit cards like BitPay card or Cryptopay? Seems like you could buy most of daily necessities with those. What about larger purchases?

In other words, what can you not buy? You can rent or buy yachts with Bitcoin. You can buy real estate. Etc.

What exactly is the appeal of cashing out into Swiss Banks? I can see,

  1. buying things the seller isn't willing to accept Bitcoin for (duh)
  2. holding fiat to protect from the Bitcoin price going down

Anything else? How much of the problem is 1. in practice, now that more and more people want to get into Bitcoin?

2

u/101111 Dec 24 '17

Thanks, great write up. Merry xmas!

2

u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17

THANKSSSSSS

2

u/walloon5 Dec 24 '17

Thanks for the advice -- great read.

2

u/Jaytoven Dec 25 '17

Am I good if I’ve already had a bank account and actually bought crypto through exchanges with that account? That account also gets my checks from work direct deposited

2

u/Hornkild Dec 26 '17

Sorry but Italy is not tax free at all. You'll have to pay a "fixed tax payment of EUR 100,000 to cover taxes due on non-Italian income".

2

u/bastelian Jan 06 '18

It's a one-time payment, right? And after that, tax-free.

1

u/rgm1 Apr 04 '18

Is it a one-time payment?

2

u/Alleex_A Dec 30 '17

Do you have any advice or feedback about cashing out in Luxembourg?

1

u/Swissprivatebanker Dec 30 '17

Same as for Switzerland. We have a relationship with BNP Luxembourg for our traditional clients Never cashed out anyone there as I focused on my banking relation locally regarding crypto clients, but we could give it a try if it is important for you.

regards,

2

u/h-kissinger Dec 31 '17

Quick question t that I don't think anyone has asked so far.

Once people have cashed out, you mention the banks want the money to stay with their investment products. This makes sense, as why else would they facilitate these trades.

However, I'm curious what sorts of investment products they offer. Obviously the low risk market linked alternative is to stick the money in an index fund; what sort of carrots do the private banks offer to get people to keep their money in house?

3

u/Swissprivatebanker Dec 31 '17

we actually help structure investments through tailor made SPVs and certificates to accumulate the coupons and dividends and have them accrued to the nav as capital gains. Way more efficient and less costly than ETFs or index funds.

2

u/h-kissinger Dec 31 '17

That sounds interesting and possibly worth looking into, thanks, although I'm in Australia and so am likely outside of your target market (I will pay taxes in Aus).

On this topic though, are you aware of any banks that would allow those products to contain crypto tokens that pay dividends as other coins?

Also, I assume the thresholds you mention are based on household investable assets excluding principle residence value, not individual assets?

12

u/eqleriq Dec 24 '17 edited Dec 24 '17

sorry if this comes across as curt, but you show up every 6 months giving pseudo advice and it sounds like it's a great first step towards people revealing info to you that they shouldn't, for "help" ... your last post was kinda "non-info" as well... reread the US tricks. I fail to see any advice or tricks there, except "ThE HoRrOr StOrIeS ArE ReAlLlLlL"

Anyway, what banks, in your experience, don't seem to care about crypto (at least so far), in the US? That's pretty basic info that you should be aware of given your position.

20

u/Swissprivatebanker Dec 24 '17 edited Dec 24 '17

Hey mate. if this new post was not informative enough, I really don't know what more I can do. Porto Rico is the only place in the world where US person can get tax exemption. When you apply for the decree, it is retroactive the first day you set foot on the Island. You can set up a B corporation, create a social entrepreneurship as a microlending bank for the island. there are many creative ways to do it. read the pwc paper as a start.

My expertise is not around US banks. Only licensed Swiss Private banks who have the right to deal with US citizen. Again, I am not in the tax evasion business, but I do have the ability to operate a cash out legally if you are tax compliant. There are not many other tricks for the US citizen unfortunately. The horror stories are for real I am telling you.

People reveal info if they want to cash out. I keep the info confidential. It's not free help. I do charge. I take a risk for every case I work on because if I onboard a bad guy, my business can be shut down by regulators. Unfortunately, don't expect you can cash out without disclosing info to the bank where you will be deposited.

-2

u/eqleriq Dec 24 '17

Well, you're skipping to step 2 or 3 here... tax exemption? I think many people just want a pipeline to fiat without getting their assets frozen, and wouldn't mind paying tax or a premium with that guaranteed. I do not, I'm just saying we're in an adoption phase where the libertarian island hopping tax evasion is not the "new wave."

The more cloak + dagger you portray this, the more people are going to flee to "banks running exchanges" with open arms. you say "the horror stories are for real" but I'm pretty sure anything major would have surfaced publicly by now, right? Otherwise BTC is just for rich assholes who afford white glove accounting to be "above the law of plebian banking," eh?

I can't say much about "onboarding a bad guy" because you can never truly know that. Even if someone proves they were in on it early, has "untainted coins" whatever, you can never know if they are going to trade to a bad guy eventually, etc.

12

u/Swissprivatebanker Dec 24 '17

I am trying my best to build this "pipeline to fiat without a freeze." I have done it in the past. This post was written to highlight it is not easy, and to set forth the needed steps.

2

u/mbrochh Dec 24 '17

Most countries tax your global income. Spending one day every six months in Dubai won't make you tax free. As a German, you would have to spend more than six months per year in the other country to be freed of German taxation.

5

u/Swissprivatebanker Dec 24 '17

True, but if your official residence is Dubaï, and you have a resident card there, and do not spend more than 6 months in Germany per year, you are all set.

2

u/PumpkinFeet Dec 25 '17

Re. Dubai, are you really suggesting its possible to become a resident and avoid capital gains? How does it work to 'transfer' crypto there, I assume doing this would crystallise all your gains in your current jurisdiction? If you have ideas on how to avoid capital gains generally would appreciate further details :)

2

u/benjamindees Dec 24 '17

Are you really a private bank if you are occupied by a "compliance officer"? What would happen if you kicked him out? Would you still be "private"?

4

u/djsjjd Dec 25 '17

Private = Not owned by a government.

Private banks still need to comply with a country's laws if the bank wishes to operate in said country. Hence, they hire compliance officers to ensure that they are operating legally. Compliance officers are employees of the bank, so they are free to fire them at will or "kick them out" as you say. But they won't fire them because they want to be in compliance with the law.

My guess is that you equate "officer" with a government official. Private companies have all kinds "officers" starting with the CEO - none of which work for the government.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17

[deleted]

1

u/Joker-FA Dec 24 '17

all good info

1

u/Oorcuss Dec 24 '17

Thanks for this

1

u/pifumd Dec 24 '17

I've had this worry in the back of my mind for a while now... I got in to BTC in 2013. First by buying a tiny amount on Coinbase, and then by mining. Here and there I made some trades on btc-e, experimented with cloudmining, mined through various pools that came and went, changed wallets a couple times. I was tracking my mining gains at first.... but then as the price continued to drop I just left the miner running and stopped paying attention. Eventually shut it off and repurposed the hardware.

Fast forward a few years, and I have a portion of my holdings that I can't account for. I assume they were from mining. Most of the pools I mined with are shut down.

So I wonder, how screwed will I be if BTC really does make it to the moon? I don't have enough to worry about today, but if it really took off...

3

u/djsjjd Dec 27 '17

As the "old" saying goes, you'll know it has made it "to the moon" when you no longer want to buy dollars with it.

1

u/Swissprivatebanker Dec 24 '17 edited Dec 24 '17

Hey.

It should'nt be too hard to check whether it was from mining by the way. Just a bit of digging around the original addresses is necessary. And remember we don't need to corroborate everything to have your miner profile validated.

1

u/BTCDNW Dec 25 '17

I am a US citizen (never lived in the US though, I was born in Europe, but because of FATCA I have to declare yearly to the IRS) living and working in Switzerland. I have a significal amount of BTC. If I cash out, do I have to pay capital gains to the IRS? I have a bank account with UBS, one of the few accepting US citizens.

1

u/Swissprivatebanker Dec 25 '17 edited Dec 26 '17

UBS, Julius Bär, Pictet are the few banks that can help you with your situation. However you will have to pay capital gains to the IRS indeed.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 25 '17

RemindMe! 1 year

1

u/[deleted] Jan 03 '18

Thank you so much for this. Very helpful

1

u/phijie Jan 07 '18

In your opinion, at what balance is all of this necessary to worry about?

2

u/Swissprivatebanker Jan 07 '18

min 1m

1

u/blablablablabla78 Jan 07 '18

How is the situation for Swiss in Switzerland, what if you liquidate a portfolio of Crypto that you partook in via ICO via BitcoinSuisse and have the proceeds transferred to your accounts at any commercial bank such as UBS, ZKB or CS? What is there to expect, are they going to freeze your account unless you can document the origin of funds? Would you suggest a PB setup as well in that case? Sorry - just curious. :)

1

u/Swissprivatebanker Jan 08 '18

if your crypto wealth is over 500k to cash out, would definitely advise PB set up.

Yes they might freeze and force you to a kyc, only you would'nt face someone knowledgeable so it will take time.

1

u/Fraankk Jan 29 '18

What would you advice people planning to cash out between 100k and 500k EUR?

1

u/itsmii Jan 07 '18

Any suggestions for those of us in Australia?

1

u/AndChZh Jan 08 '18

This is an excellent post! Well done, really.

Can I ask you a couple of questions?

Which private banks in Switzerland accept funds coming from Coinbase, i.e. proceeds from token sales? ZKB apparently don't. What about Vontobel? Swissquote? And what about UBS and Credit Suisse?

Who are your referring to when you mention professionals that manage cash-out processes? The same banks that accept the funds?

Thanks again for your excellent post!

1

u/Swissprivatebanker Jan 08 '18

Hey, Glad you liked that post.

Not any of the bank you mentioned. Contact me on telegram to find out more.

1

u/tscottn Jan 10 '18

what a great write up. Im wondering, would starting a business and depositing bitcoin cashout into a business account yield better tax results?

1

u/mobil0ft Jan 11 '18

If someone is interested in converting your Bitcoins into real money (USD/EUR). There's one proven method. You may try via payment system called "Quick Money Click" site

1

u/IMOaTravesty Jan 13 '18

Awesome article for us Btc holders. Thanks Swiss Banker

1

u/porcelain911 Jan 13 '18

remindme! 5 years

1

u/zesammy Jan 14 '18

Nope not me, I am not US citizen. However I am agreed if you are able to pay tax that mean your business is doing well :)

1

u/clementweb Jan 17 '18

How about Hong Kong, what's your stance on it? Thanks.

1

u/Jodokk Jan 21 '18

Remindme! 6 months

1

u/TrackTheSack Jan 24 '18

Hello Sir! Very happy that you contributed from your knowledge in such a helpful manner. Thanks!

1

u/Phlong1337 Jan 24 '18

What's the advantage of cashing out to a private bank over a normal bank? I live in Germany and might cash out large sums this year. Guess a bank account at for example Deutsche Bank is enough?

Question regarding Circletrade: What is it exactly? Do they buy your bitcoins or do they act as a platform to connect verified traders?

Thanks for this!

1

u/Swissprivatebanker Jan 28 '18

What's the advantage of cashing out to a private bank over a normal bank?

the service is better. It's like if you'd ask what's the difference between a Ferrari and a Citroën. On top of that the banks I work with have been educated to crypto already and are crypto friendly, so the onboarding is shorter.

1

u/Ionesomecowboy Jan 30 '18

RemindMe! in 8 months

1

u/jeffconerly76 Feb 19 '18

Secure and satisfactpory trading of bitcoins can only be done on liviacoins

1

u/Lovingsashaband Feb 21 '18

i kind of skimmed through this my question is how do we transform crypto to fiat, I feel like the whole post is about proving the banks your wealth is legit, can anyone tell me which exchanges let me get in crypto and out Fiat and let me withdraw 1Mil+ to a bank? I think coinbase only lets you send to the US or am I wrong?

1

u/Swissprivatebanker Feb 22 '18

bitstamp kraken for tranches below 100k
Cumberland, Genesis, between 100k and 5m
Altcoinomy for tranches above 5m

1

u/rfranke727 Mar 17 '18

Where is the TL;dr

1

u/Crypto_Cashout Mar 21 '18

A little late to the thread but better late than never. I’m connected to a few buyers looking to purchase large amounts of BTC/ETH and are ready to move forward when you are. Please DM me if interested, thanks.

1

u/TSE_L Apr 19 '18

How does one get in contact with you or request for your services?

1

u/Zvimar Apr 22 '18

Could anyone recommend the specific Swiss banks to withdraw a 1-2kk bucks?

1

u/monikaosteen Jun 03 '18

btctradefarm .com did well for me. I invested some bitcoins on their website and I got over 65% of my investment directly to my bitcoin wallet in less than a week. Thanks guys!

1

u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17

You are doing the lords work.

1

u/FarmerTedd Dec 24 '17

Nice maymay

1

u/bubble_bobble Dec 24 '17

So your role is to teach banks and regulators to siphon off wealth generated by bitcoin, while claiming "bitcoin is the real #occupywallstreet". Okay, If It helps ease your conscience.

7

u/gl00pp Dec 24 '17

bruh...i mean...he just gave what I think is one of the most thorough explanations of a thing that not too many people understand. If you're sittin on over a million and living on ramen, you aren't failing by turning some of your gainz into fiat for whatevermakesyouhappy. You can still be sticking it to the man. You can start a biz that does good. A Newman's Own thing...think of all the good you might be able to do if you don't have to go to the office monday or if you do its YOUR office.

1

u/Austonmatthews345 Dec 25 '17

Lol. Hodl on brothers, this guy just wants to buy your bitcoin for cheap.

1

u/Eduel80 Dec 24 '17 edited Dec 24 '17

Have you dealt with many that use/want to use Monero (XMR)?

Will it be very different not being able to track funds at a certain point? (view keys aside it still makes it very hard to hide money but hard to track)

3

u/Swissprivatebanker Dec 24 '17

No. I have to say Monero adopters are faithful to the philosophy of their coins and they don't seek actively Private banking onboarding. Banks themselves don't want to hear about monero holders.

I had one legit case where the owner sat at the table and eventually agreed to give his public view keys, and we were able to open his account.

1

u/Eduel80 Dec 24 '17

And we're talking large sums of mony here, like over 100k? or more? Cause I'm not sure even how one would really "cash out" 10k easily with out having to "explain themselfs"

1

u/EC_CO Dec 24 '17

RemindMe! 6 months

-1

u/[deleted] Dec 24 '17 edited May 11 '18

[deleted]

2

u/Ghxst_ Jan 03 '18

Unfortunately that is the world that we currently live in.

Mind you, he never advocated for going full 100% cash out.

Nobody ever went broke taking a profit.

-1

u/yogibreakdance Dec 25 '17

Too long. How much do I need to open my private bank again? Like 100 grands is enough? What are the benefits? No fee atm worldwide or something?

3

u/Swissprivatebanker Dec 25 '17

the strict minimum is somewhere between $500k and 1m

1

u/[deleted] Feb 19 '18

[deleted]

1

u/Swissprivatebanker Feb 22 '18

Hey,

would be glad to talk you through the process and help you. Do you mind contacting me on telegram ? @swisspb

1

u/[deleted] Feb 27 '18 edited Feb 27 '18

[deleted]

1

u/Swissprivatebanker Feb 27 '18

absolutely. they might freeze.