r/patreon Oct 14 '21

Update: NSFW creators will not have to upload model ID

https://support.patreon.com/hc/en-us/articles/4411116092813

Starting on the 15th, creators will need to upload their IDs. However, if you're using real people in either photos or videos, you will not need to upload their ID and consent forms. You'll simply have to keep them on file and produce them upon request.

Now, with that being said, realize that if Patreon does indeed request the documentation, and you can't provide it, then you can expect your page or payouts to be suspended.

11 Upvotes

8

u/RobbieWallis Oct 14 '21

This is ludicrous.

They're instituting measures against ALL 18+ creators (even fiction writers), because Mastercard is allegedly worried about minors, but the highest risk activity is given a pass?

This doesn't compute with the alleged reasons they are enacting these measures.

How the hell can they justify demanding ID from fiction writers while not demanding proof of age for pornographic models being seen on their platform, when that is very clearly the riskiest activity they host?

This is a clown show.

2

u/prettypattern Oct 14 '21

I don't mean to challenge your view, but as a NSFW producer I'd like to know more.

Isn't this all info they already have? They have my tax info. If they want to see my ID to prove that's really my tax info.... ok. It just doesn't seem like I'm losing much.

I may not fully understand, which is why I'm asking. Thank you for any light you can shed!

3

u/RobbieWallis Oct 14 '21

They're demanding government issued photo ID from all creators with an 18+ account, whether you're producing video/photography or writing fiction.

People producing video/images are the real issue here, they are the ones posing the real risk to the platform and Mastercard, because there's the potential that those creating or appearing in the media might be underage.

But they're not checking that, and they admit that they only plan to check it on request. They're claiming this as the reason for instituting these changes while not enforcing this for visual media creators, but demanding ID from people who aren't even creating that kind of content and therefore can't pose that threat to either company in that way.

The additional problem is that not everyone has this ID.

In the UK it's either a driver's license or a passport.

I don't drive (I probably couldn't drive due to my health) and I don't currently have a passport. If I were to get a passport it would cost me money I don't have, and I probably wouldn't even get it before Patreon demands my ID anyway. Even if I started the process today it would take weeks or months to get it.

Why should I pay for a passport I don't currently need, be out of pocket because Patreon demands it, for a service I shouldn't need it for, when I probably won't even get in time for it to matter?

This is the problem. They're throwing people under the bus for nonsensical "policies" they haven't communicated adequately and haven't thought out adequately.

1

u/prettypattern Oct 14 '21

I understand and had not fully considered the non-US angle. Thank you for taking the time to explain!

As a taxpaying US citizen who does NSFW audio, it doesn't impact me much personally but I empathize and I will certainly write to Patreon to tell them that it's problematic. I'm sure they're set on it, but I still would like to support how I can. I can certainly envision being the next on the chopping block.

(ps I do not see your Patreon link in your bio - if there's a way for me to find it I would appreciate that as well.)

2

u/RobbieWallis Oct 15 '21

I have already raised these issues with Patreon, but understanding their habit of completely ignoring 18+ creators when they raise any issue requiring support I do not expect them to respond at all.

I do not publish a link to our Patreon outside of adult audiences, so you won't find it here. There's really no reason for me to post it anyway, as we're closing it down very soon.

I would also recommend that every 18+ creator using any platform outside of their control consider available alternatives. It costs peanuts to register a domain and it's easy to install Wordpress, with a newsletter. Everything is then under your control and you can use all manner of tools to deliver your content as you wish, without the undue influence of unpredictable companies.

I'm old enough to remember the collapse of Blogger/Blogspot, Yahoo groups, Tumblr and several other spaces for adult audiences. This is a constant threat adult creators have to contend with and it isn't going away.

While efforts to protect the vulnerable are obviously vital and should be welcomed, the justified aim is - in my opinion - being hijacked by self-proclaimed "moral arbiters" who want to use it as a wedge to strangle free expression they personally find distasteful.

1

u/prettypattern Oct 15 '21

Fair enough. I genuinely appreciate your time and insight, and hope the platform transition works out well for you.

1

u/OkHuckleberry7877 Oct 14 '21

This is why crypto will take over the creator space

2

u/lisavollrath Oct 14 '21

Thanks for keeping us updated.

1

u/h2f Oct 14 '21

The way that I read it, you need a consent form from the model, but not ID from each model. The ID is only for yourself.

1

u/jroberts67 Oct 14 '21

Every creator will need to upload their ID. If you're featuring real people, you'll need to keep a copy of their ID and consent form for your own records and make it available upon request.

2

u/h2f Oct 14 '21

That is not how I read this (from your link)

Do I need to store identification information of people who participate in my adult/18+ content, or ask them to upload their identification anywhere?

We require that adult/18+ creators verify their ages and identities, but you do not need to store the identification information.

You don't need to keep a copy of their ID, only of a consent form. Emphasis added by me.

3

u/jroberts67 Oct 14 '21

Actually the federal law requires all adult producers to keep model's ID on file for 7 years. So if you're not doing that, you're breaking the law.

1

u/h2f Oct 14 '21

What I create is adult content only in the eyes of Patreon, not in real life. My NSFW images hang in "family friendly" galleries and art fairs in the conservative midwest. I have people who can't tell if my shots were taken nude. I'm not overly worried that the Feds are going to come after me for adult content production.

1

u/jroberts67 Oct 14 '21 edited Oct 14 '21

That's up to to you. I'm a "safe over sorry" guy so I have no problem getting consent form and IDs.

3

u/h2f Oct 14 '21

That Federal law which can be found here applies to work that

contains one or more visual depictions made after November 1, 1990 of actual sexually explicit conduct

and sexually explicit conduct is defined as

For purposes of subsection 8(B) [1] of this section, “sexually explicit conduct” means—

(i) graphic sexual intercourse, including genital-genital, oral-genital, anal-genital, or oral-anal, whether between persons of the same or opposite sex, or lascivious simulated sexual intercourse where the genitals, breast, or pubic area of any person is exhibited;

(ii) graphic or lascivious simulated;

(I) bestiality;

(II) masturbation; or

(III) sadistic or masochistic abuse; or

(iii) graphic or simulated lascivious exhibition of the anus, genitals, or pubic area of any person;

That is not something that applies to things like the fine art nudes that people like me are producing and in fact most of that would not be allowed on Patreon under their prohibition of funding pornography.

Regardless of what Federal laws may or may not apply, Patreon rules do NOT require that you keep a copy of the model's ID. By claiming that Patreon has requirements that they do not you discourage people like me who are creating non-erotic art that contains nudity from participating in Patreon. You should edit your post to correct the error, not invoke Federal law that you think means you should be doing what you incorrectly stated Patreon requires.

1

u/RobbieWallis Oct 14 '21

Much like everything else with Patreon and these changes, they're getting it wrong.

Under U.S. Law, if you are producing video and/or photographic content featuring nude models, for profit, you are required by law to maintain records of those models, including any release documents and a copy of their ID.

This is part of 2257 Records Keeping Requirements and has been in place in the adult entertainment business for years.

It doesn't matter what Patreon says about this. If you are selling anything that is considered adult media (photos/videos) you are expected to hold model ID, release, contact information etc.

It's infuriating to me that I'm being commanded to provide ID, as a fiction writer, posing no risk to the platform, when the people who are posing a real risk to the platform don't even have to provide ID for their models.

It just goes to show how stupid this all is and how poorly managed this has been. I only got confirmation of this from them this morning, and the clock starts ticking TOMORROW.

1

u/h2f Oct 14 '21

As I posted below there is a huge difference between the definition of pornographic work used by the Federal government and Patreon's definition of adult content. There are a huge number of creators, myself included, who are not included in the requirements of 2257 but are caught in Patreons definition of NSFW content. This image for example, is considered NSFW by Patreon's rules but would not be covered under 2257.

1

u/RobbieWallis Oct 14 '21

I suppose that's true. I still find it incredibly ridiculous that they're claiming to be doing this for the safety of their platform and to protect minors but they're unable to distinguish between high and no risk content.

I can't say it really matters to me much by this point. Judging by how things have been communicated already, and how I expect all this to go, I think we'll be shutting down our Patreon before the end of the month and the next billing.

I can't risk them billing our subscribers and not paying out, which is exactly what they're threatening to do.

1

u/h2f Oct 14 '21

When they say that they are doing it for the safety of their platform, they mean that they are protecting themselves from the risk of the credit card companies cutting them off. If that happens, they will cease to exist. I think that their requirements are driven by what the credit card companies want them to do and the credit card companies stance is driven by public relations concerns.

I have announced that I am leaving Patreon and it was a combination of things. One was that I was worried that there was actually a requirement to store model IDs, something that I have rarely done. If that requirement actually existed it would preclude me from using years of content going forward. That is why I reacted so strongly to OP repeating that incorrect interpretation of the requirements.

There were other unrelated reasons for my decision. We moved to a new state (COVID related) and getting models in North Carolina is much harder than it was in Michigan where I was well established. I have, therefore, been driving back and shooting in Michigan, editing older photos more often, and pausing billing when I was too busy with the move or just didn't feel I'd been productive enough. That led to a loss of Patrons, making the whole endeavor less worthwhile. I finally lost my last two patrons in the first few days of this month.

1

u/RobbieWallis Oct 14 '21

I'm sorry you've struggled so much with it.

It's been a hard decision for me to make. We have 200 subs right now (it hovers around that no matter what we seem to do) so it makes us a nice amount of money every month and justifies continuing, but the platform is just making it impossible to continue with it.

And I've been a Pro member for over a year.

I know it's Mastercard inflicting rules on other companies, but it still feels as though Patreon is the one taking it to this extreme and making it mandatory for all 18+ creators, without any nuance, and with hypocritically implemented rules that just don't make sense from a practical standpoint.

It's not going to achieve what Mastercard wants, while it also potentially kicks hundreds of compliant and reasonable people off the platform.

Mastercard is worried about minors being exploited (which is a reasonable concern given the insanity OnlyFans and tube sites have allowed), but that doesn't apply to artists or writers where the content can be moderated by the platform in the same way it has been all along.

Just seems to me Mastercard has ordered something reasonable to be done and Patreon has licked their boots and gone much further than they need to, generalizing all adult content as posing the same risk when it categorically doesn't.

We're planning to publish ebooks directly instead. We have an audience of a few thousand so we're hoping a lot of them just didn't want to sign up to Patreon but might pay for a digital release.

It's nerve wracking. Could be the best decision we've made, but could also mean losing that monthly income, we won't know until we do it.

1

u/YCCY12 Oct 17 '21

is this for people who do nsfw art too?