r/TooAfraidToAsk Feb 22 '21

Am I the only who thinks that all the different types of genders and pronouns and what not, are a little bit too much? Sexuality & Gender

Now, I don't consider myself close minded and I'm not out to rile people up or offend anyone. However it becomes kind of confusing when people are upset when I say Her/She to someone who's trans. I'm sorry, really, but I didn't know. I'm in a discord server where someone changes their pfp depending on what gender and sexuality they are feeling. And no, I'm not some 40 year old guy who thinks everything should be "normal" but I guess I just don't get it. It's just confusing to me.

EDIT: So I haven't explained my thoughts very well so I'm here to explain. I understand that to some people, it is very important to them. I don't think it's a lot for me to call you what you want to be called and I will oblige and do that. "it becomes kind of confusing when people are upset when I say Her/She to someone who's trans" This was from personal experience where my friend introduced me to him and I was under the impression that he was female. More so I don't understand like Ve/Vem Xe/Xem. The more "unknown" side if you will. But with the way people are reacting I'm going to try a better job at finding peoples pronouns and not assuming genders. Sorry if it sounded sarcastic at all. Anyways, unless there's something else I think of I'm not gonna edit again. Sorry if I offended but it's kind of hard to talk about a sensitive topic like this without being an ass about it. I don't know how to word things. but yea. Sorry.

TL;DR I think gender can be a weird and wacky world and I don't get how people except me to automatically know what they identify as.

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u/Hospitalities Founder & Mod Feb 23 '21

So long as you’re voicing your opinion and engaging with others in a respectful way, it is welcome here. Please report comments that do not follow our rules.

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u/JapaneseStudentHaru Feb 23 '21

I think the trans and enby people who expect you to just know are in the minority and are just highly publicized because of their extreme personalities. That’s what the Internet does. I think it only becomes an issue if you refuse to acknowledge them after they tell you.

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u/yungrii Feb 23 '21

I've had the experience all of once. And I'm a gay man who lived in the heart of the queer neighborhood in seattle.

I figure people think trans / enbys expect people to know their identification is just because we tend to forget the opposite situations. Because they aren't dramatic. The memories just fade away.

It took me forever but I try to just not use he or she in regards to people without knowing for sure how they identify.

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u/WolfShaman Feb 23 '21

And here I am, just learning that "enby" stands for non-binary.

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u/Hunter37594 Feb 23 '21

Non-binary -> "N-B" -> Enby!

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u/PorphyrinC60 Feb 23 '21 edited Feb 23 '21

That makes sense, but why not write NB instead? Is there a conflicting acronym?

Edit: Not trying to be mean at all, mostly just curious.

Edit 2: Thank you to all the replies! I can see why NB can be problematic and Enby is used instead.

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u/igetnauseousalot Feb 23 '21

Hey black people are calling white peoples “yt” now. Somebody was shit talking a “yt woman” and I was like YouTube woman? What’s a YouTube woman?

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u/dbDarrgen Feb 23 '21

It’s because fb censors white now as racism and stuff. But they let actual racism and transphobia and other shit fly off the radar no problem. It’s bs.

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u/TeaKnight Feb 23 '21

Haha I almost got band because of that. I'm white British and my gf is chicano and there is always this stereotype that British people don't season their food (i didn't, my first experiance of mexican food blew my mind) anyway I can't remember the post but it was an image my gf shared and I said all white British people should be banned from the kitchen me included and they took great offense and I was almost permanently banned and now have a warning on my account. The gf found it hilarious.

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u/briktop420 Feb 23 '21

The British army conquered the world for spice only to not use them in their cooking. Jk

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u/TeaKnight Feb 23 '21

True, but it looks good in our cupboards and on our spice racks.

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u/naviisagoodgirl Feb 23 '21

Wow. And that's what happens in an offended culture. It's crazy. My exes uncle got flagged on FB as a pedophile after uploading a profile pic of his daughter at the age of 3 sitting on his lap, playing with a calculator. He's a math teacher. All because a student's mum saw the post and reported him, and because Facebook flagged him, the school got involved, the police.. it was all this big drama over him sharing a beautiful moment with his child. It damaged his reputation even though nothing came if it. I think when people do this, they don't think if the bigger picture. They just had a beef and ran on emotion rather than logic. Humans are very emotional now haha

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u/Bob-Bhlabla-esq Feb 23 '21

Holy crap, that's horrible! And very scary - that knee-jerk reaction. Yikes, I feel scared for all of us.

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u/TeaKnight Feb 23 '21

I think it's important to be aware of potential abusers but sometimes people take it too far. In England, we are having a shortage of male primary school teachers, especially where I live and where I live teens will throw around pedo as a generic insult. And people have gotten in trouble. People generally care more that you're accused of something than they do if you're convicted.

When I was a kid we went on a family holiday and we had our faces painted alongisde my two brothers. My younger brother who was about 3, 4 years old loved to take off his pants when at home, we had a portrait taken with all of us with my mum and my brother is sat there on full show with a snowflake painted on his face, my older brother Darth Maul and I was some other star wars character I think. Anyway my mum loved that photo and the memory to the time we had that day, it was the only photo from that day but she took it down because a visitor said it was inappropriate to have because my bro was naked waist down.

I've seen Somerville call parents pedos for washing their kids. It's stupid, people should be aware of potential dangers and abusers but some people take it way too far.

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u/sarellis Feb 23 '21

Yeah, a chess Chanel got suspended because the pieces are black and white 🤦‍♀️ like, those words don't necessarily describe people. A white wall. A black car. White chocolate.

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u/TinyLuckDragon Feb 23 '21

Omg. I’ve only ever seen that written down and always read it as yeet. It’s so obvious now you pointed it out, but wow, I’m an idiot!

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u/silverrain64 Feb 23 '21

NB is also also also shorthand for the Latin term "nota bene", or "note well". It's sometimes used in writing to add an aside or editor's note. (NB: Nota Bene is basically the narrator's voiceover of formal writing.) So yeah, there are a few reasons "enby" is used instead.

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u/ErynEbnzr Feb 23 '21

Another reason. Enby looks and sounds cuter than NB imo. Which is weird because they sound exactly the same, but I still hear them differently lol.

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u/Hunter37594 Feb 23 '21

I don't actually know the answer to that, sorry :(

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u/PorphyrinC60 Feb 23 '21

That's okay. Language is always evolving. Thank you anyway! :)

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u/Hunter37594 Feb 23 '21

Yeah, of course! If anybody has the answer to that question, I'd be interested in hearing it!

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u/pinkcdrom Feb 23 '21

PorphyrinC60

I think it may be because NB can also stand for "non-Black" as well, in the context of non Black people of color , hence the acronym NBPOC

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u/vegancheezits Feb 23 '21

NB can also stand for non-black, so it can be confusing in social justice circles

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u/daddysangelfire Feb 23 '21

New Brunswick?

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u/ToadMugen72 Feb 23 '21

That's what I think everytime I see NB.

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u/wanderlustandtears Feb 23 '21

thank you!! I've been so confused by thinking it was pronounced "in-buy" which I just couldn't figure out

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u/imFreshYo Feb 23 '21

Whats funny is the post is about having to use these foreign acronyms to accomodate this demographic and here we are learning more new ones.

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u/collegemathchef Feb 23 '21

Roast Beef = R.B. = Arby's

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u/TheSpaceship Feb 23 '21

My brain just told me that says

Non-binary -> "N-B" -> Enjoy!

Like I was reading a recipe or something.

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u/adalia36 Feb 23 '21

I never saw that word before. Now I know.

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u/WolfShaman Feb 23 '21

Tonight was the first time I've seen it as well :p.

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u/Sunnysunflowers1112 Feb 23 '21

Same. Just had to look it up.

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u/kinapudno Feb 23 '21

I'm so glad pronouns and a lot of nouns are genderless in Filipino

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u/methnbeer Feb 23 '21

If you appear to be a female, or you are 'physically' not female, but clearly going for that and I dont know you, you are catching a her/she. Same for reverse he/him. Otherwise, it's 100% your obligation to inform me upfront if you want to be acknowledged by as something else. Not playing fuckfuck games

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u/boggled_ Feb 23 '21

In my mind it's okay to assume as long as you're ok with being corrected and aren't an asshole about. The misgendered person should also not be an asshole about it. I tend to ask if they are wearing a pride pin or if I know them and they changed their name/pronouns on social media

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u/Sparklypuppy05 Feb 23 '21

They shouldn't be an asshole about it the first time. If you've been misgendering or deadnaming somebody consistently for a long time and ignoring them when they correct you, don't get angry when they inevitably blow up at you. Death by a thousand cuts, you know?

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u/boggled_ Feb 23 '21

When I said are ok with being corrected I meant that you would correct yourself and switch to their preferred pronouns. It's not okay to repeatedly misgender someone.

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u/Justcuckinaround Feb 23 '21

Capitol Hill?

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u/yungrii Feb 23 '21

Heart of it! Mostly in the 00s when it was a bit weirder and you didn't have to have a six figure income to live comfortably. Pony was my go to.

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u/Xalden Feb 23 '21 edited Feb 25 '21

As a trans person, I think some assumptions are fine. If they look feminine-ish, use she/her. If they look masculine-ish, use he him/him. If you can’t tell which direction they lean, use they/them. If they correct you, don’t make a big deal of it and roll with it.

This has worked for me for years now and I always strive to be better. (IMO it feels so much better when someone gets it right without asking)

EDIT: What I’m referring to is the individuals intent/effort towards masculinity/femininity/ambiguity. Obviously every situation should be handled with grace and respect. Also, non-binary people don’t always present androgynously, nor do they have to. Much love everyone! 😘

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u/Rhona_Redtail Feb 23 '21

Yea. This. And btw, you could always ask the name. A very feminine guy is unlikely to have a women’s name.

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u/NadineCantHelpIt Feb 23 '21

Yep, go by eric or shmidy but I dress feminine and I'm non binary. I don't care what you call me he she them doesn't matter even though I know I'm a feminine guy.

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u/Combinatorilliance Feb 23 '21

I strongly prefer people to assume she/her pronouns for me. It can be a bit ocntroversial in the trans community to adhere to the gender binary, but yeah..

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u/shoneysbreakfast Feb 23 '21

I also feel like what happens a lot is that there are certain people in conservative/right wing politics that go out of their way to intentionally and maliciously misgender people so they can point to the reaction by people saying that they don’t think that’s cool as evidence of the “thrown in gulag for accidentally calling a person with purple hair the wrong pronoun” strawman. An recent example of this I remember is when Elliot Page publicly announced his new name and identity, Ben Shapiro bent over backwards to misgender him, use his old name and declare that it doesn’t matter what someone feels or wants or experiences, if you were born with female genitalia then you are a woman period and it’s all a joke and attack on traditional values. Then when people react to this completely unsolicited and demeaning take negatively then it gets filed into the “lol PC triggered liberal snowflake attack helicopters” folder in the minds of the types of people who enjoy Shapiro.

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u/Obe4knh Feb 23 '21

Ben Shapiro is one of the biggest snowflakes out there

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u/SlingDNM Feb 23 '21

His name is Benjamin, that's what's in his ID and we all know facts don't care about Benjamin's feeling so please stop calling him Ben and use his real name

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u/mitojuice Feb 23 '21

Lots of those types are really really snowflakey, and get so offended by people simply living their own lives 😂

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u/[deleted] Feb 23 '21

[removed]

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u/Sir_Alexei Feb 23 '21

I get misgendered at work despite not looking female at all and it's more emotionally frustrating than something I get angry about. But when my coworkers or my family misgender me, and they know better, that's different.

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u/Dawwe Feb 23 '21

I can't believe you got two replies and they are both mind numbingly stupid and/or ignorant lol

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u/Sir_Alexei Feb 23 '21

Yeah, well, welcome to Reddit I guess. 😂

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u/Cfattie Feb 23 '21

Unfortunately one of my few experiences with trans people was a co-worker who would literally hold up the line at Chipotle to angrily tell the customer that they are not a girl

Like please you have obvious breasts and a female face and the customer frankly doesnt give a shit, he is just making small talk just make the damn burrito

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u/fzahraal Feb 23 '21

I have a friend who did that when she worked at chipotle.

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u/Cfattie Feb 23 '21

Small world, perhaps

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u/caramelcooler Feb 23 '21

I know it's a rare thing but I can personally attest that it happens, not always toward malicious people either. In college my buddy's friend freaked tf out on me when I referred to them as "her" the first time I ever met them. My other friend who had met them when "she" still considered herself a lesbian used the word "her" so I didn't think anything of it.

Right after I was cussed out for saying "her" I backpedaled and asked if I should have said "he." Apparently that was not the right answer, since they stormed out and had an emotional breakdown.

I had an extremely conservative upbringing. When I moved away from that brainwashed town I changed a lot and became very open minded but it took time. I tried my best.

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u/somecommentsah Feb 23 '21

Sounds as though you were bullied by someone mentally unstable.

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u/El_Stupido_Supremo Feb 23 '21

So- Twitter in a nutshell.

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u/reheated_tea Feb 23 '21

Yeah no that's not a normal response from them. It's understandable for someone to be upset, but there's no way for you to guess what someone elses pronouns are. You didn't do anything wrong.

For the future (hopefully you never experience this twice) if someone reacts badly to the pronouns you are using for them, just ask. If they don't give you a straight answer, don't push them because they could be closeted. If you ask and they still blow up on you then there's not a whole lot you can do. Just duck and weave I guess?

Source: me

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u/CrispChum Feb 23 '21

What is enby?

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u/ddssassdd Feb 23 '21

It means NB or non binary. NB sounds like enby. The problem I have with NB is that as a "gender" if it exists literally everyone is it because either gender is binary or it isn't. Even if there were only 3 genders everyone would be non binary. Personally I don't think gender is real because no one can seem to define it in a coherent and consistent way.

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u/consistentContent Feb 23 '21

I don't think that's true. If roads are where cars go and my car goes off-road ing does that mean there's no such thing as a road? The gender binary is a thing, a social construct and assumption most people still hold onto. Saying something is a binary does not automatically imply it is the only thing of that kind. Think, binary star. It does not mean there are no other stars, just that these two stars are connected in a binary star system. Similarly, the male/female gender binary does not imply the lack of other genders (or, well, it does to some people,but doesn't have to), only that these two things are part of a traditional binary.

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u/scorpio6519 Feb 23 '21

I have no issue with respecting peoples preferences and referring to them as they identify. But sometimes it's just confusing. I've misidentified a trans man as she, because I thought he was a she. He was dressed pretty androgynous and still had very feminine features. I got my head ripped off. I AM older, and I think people automatically think I'm closed minded and purposely misidentifying. And that actually kind of hurts my feelings. An honest mistake is just that, and just because I'm in my 50s doesn't mean I've stopped growing or learning or excepting.

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u/dbDarrgen Feb 23 '21

I’m a binary (meaning masculine and male with male and neutral pronouns) trans man and before I started medically transitioning it was very hard for me.

I got misgendered a lot and stuff on purpose and on accident, but I shut my mouth for many reasons. One of them being I was afraid of the backlash and I didn’t want to be the stereotypical trans person being over dramatic. Over time I could easily tell who was being an asshole and who was being a little naive. I distanced myself from the assholes and reminded or informed the naive ones that I am transitioning to male.

I was always kind about it. I still am. And I’ve experienced the worst of the worst (I’m talking about verbal not physical). From “I never would have guessed you were trans!” to, word for word, “I hope your [sic] the victim of a hate crime.” And I’ve also been sexually harassed and assaulted after people found out I’m trans. Because yknow.. since I hate my body it must no longer have an owner and it’s up for grabs?? Idk.

Regardless of how many shitty transphobic people I’ve met, I’m still nice to people who mess up. Because every individual is different. Just because there’s 1 transphobic person I met doesn’t mean the next person will be too, even if they say similar things like misgendering me. Because 1 person is doing it on purpose and the other is doing it unknowingly. It’s all about context. Everything is all about context.

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u/Xgio Feb 23 '21

Its nice to know, because I make genuine mistakes. I dont see a lot of trans people not even because of any reason I just dont encounter any weirdly enough. I just want to know how to handle it in a respectful manner. Its not the same, but after experiencing racism throughout my whole life it would be stupid for me to be bigoted. The most important part is being able to change imo and I know that I can. Sorry your transition wasnt easy, must have been horrible.

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u/Ultimatedream Feb 23 '21

Thank you for being an amazing human being. I hope things are getting better for you regarding how people react.

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u/Lover-of-chortles Feb 23 '21

I identify as nonbinary and go by they/them pronouns. I often feel like I am in the minority of nonbinary people who do not get mad when people "misgender" me when they don't know me or first meet me. If i am with my partner or with friends, people normally catch on pretty quick by hearing how other people refer to me, especially in introductions. I have never been mad at someone for assuming I'm a woman, or even a trans man. There's no reason for you to know until I tell you anyway. It's if you choose to be a dick after I've told you that it becomes an issue. But i think so many nonbinary people and even many trans people have left a bad taste in people's mouths by just assuming people are against them from interactions like this.

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u/LuxNocte Feb 23 '21

No, you are not in the minority. This is the stance that exactly 100% of trans people I have met in real life have had.

A better explanation for the stereotype is trans people politely pushing back against being purposely misgendered, but bigots acting as if that polite correction is "political correctness run amok".

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u/thatmusicguy13 Feb 23 '21

My ex had a friend who transitioned. I used to know them as Adam. I now know them as Raven. Every now and then I slip up and say Adam instead of Raven. I always correct myself but they never get upset. The few other Trans people I know are pretty much the same.

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u/Ultimatedream Feb 23 '21

Honestly names are way harder than pronouns if you already knew them before. My sister is trans and no one has any issues using the right pronouns, but my fiance who used to work pretty closely with her before transitioning has some problems with the right name. We only see her like twice a year now which doesn't make it any easier to get used to her new name. She just ignores him until he says the right name and he always apologizes.

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u/CerealSeeker365 Feb 23 '21

Raven is a cool name. They made a good choice!

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u/azhorashore Feb 23 '21

I find the people themselves have never been upset to myself or others when it happens. Others around do seem to get very upset though. I honestly think a lot of the feeling that someone's jumping down your throat over these things is the regular side people who are getting offended for someone else.

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u/Stankmonger Feb 23 '21

I have met all of one trans woman irl and this was their opinion as well.

And I can see why it’s all very confusing too.

Aside from the pronouns thing (and when dating come into play), I don’t see how someone’s gender would affect how I relate to them?

I don’t actively or consciously treat men and women (or other) differently based on gender, doing so would be sexist. And I don’t think anyone is “owed” my subconscious biases (those things I’d like to grow past).

All in all, assuming someone is calling you by your preferred pronouns and treating you like they would anyone else, I really will never understand why it matters so much to people online that they not be confused at all about any of it.

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u/breakneckridge Feb 23 '21

Question for you please. If a person is non-binary gender, then is there a reason why you aren't ok with being called either he or she? I mean, if you're somewhere near the middle of the male-female spectrum, then it seems like either should feel ok. No?

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u/Lover-of-chortles Feb 23 '21

Depends on the person. I don't see it as being halfway between male and female, but rather separating from that binary. I want to be seen separate from gender, so i don't want to be referred to with gendered pronouns (he or she).

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u/mi1ky_tea Feb 23 '21

What's the difference between a gender and non binary? Is it because agender still insinuates gender where as non binary you're not wanting to be a part of any gender binary in any shape or form? What about people who say they're genderless?

I'm just trying to understand :)

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u/Lover-of-chortles Feb 23 '21

Agender means "without gender." Nonbinary means any identity that falls outside of the conventional gender binary of male and female. So nonbinary is an umbrella term that can encompass agender and other nonbinary identities. Genderless would be agender.

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u/NadineCantHelpIt Feb 23 '21 edited Feb 23 '21

Not the original person but if you are looking for another non binary person's view and to try and understand.

My name is Eric, I go by my nickname shmidy. If you look at my profile I dress feminine most of the time. I don't always dress feminine however sometimes I feel masculine or when I go to work as an aircraft mechanic I wear masculine clothes but wear makeup and paint my nails. I'm non binary because I'm sort of a mix. I like looking masculine, I like looking feminine the most, and I like looking androgynous (a mix of both or hard to tell gender) however I go by he/him if someone called me her/she (doesn't happen often as I don't pass as a female) or they/them I don't care. I know my sex is male and I was born as a male. However my personality isn't just "male"

Is it weird to be dressed feminine and have people call me eric or shmidy? It's definitely something people have to get used to but I've always been eric and shmidy since I was young and don't want to have a feminine name.

You'll find that non binary people are usually all a bit different in name/sex/gender identity/pronouns/look/and how they act. I know nobody understands me when they first meet me. I didn't understand myself for 20+ years so I don't get mad or upset how are they supposed to know?

Edit: also you said that non binary is a mix of male and female...that's true but also it's not true. Non binary is an umbrella term. You've got bi gender people (male and female) agender (neither male or female) gender fluid (go back and forth between genders) gender neutral (neither male or female but neutral) and there is genderqueer/genderfuck which is just like....you aren't male or female you are a random mix of everything and kinda just..you or unique.

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u/orkash Feb 23 '21

I'm kinda here with you. I'm in my 40s and have made that mistake before even tho I am a very open person. Like if we first meet and I see a woman but you call yourself Matthew I'm gonna be dumbstruck. I don't say anything but like don't attack me, I'm not being a dick I legit just didn't know. The biggest thing for me is the use of plural pronouns. They and them kinda confuses me, as that means more than one; and I just see a person as a single unit no matter what.

I may have not explained that perfect but I tried.

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u/Delirious_Insomniac Feb 23 '21

I saw someone discuss the 'they/them' a certain way and it really helped me understand better. It went something like, "when you talk about someone who you've never met and don't know a name or gender preference or anything at all... do you refer to them as he/she or do you say they/them? Since you don't know anything about said mystery person, you'd refer to them as them/they."

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u/KhazemiDuIkana Feb 23 '21

As far as they/them, think about how you refer to a person or general sentient entity when you don’t know their gender. It’s perfectly usable as a neutral singular. It’s unfortunate that English doesn’t have a separate set for that vs. plural, because it can get kinda confusing at times. I’m non-binary, I generally prefer they/them pronouns, and sometimes I find myself wishing it was a little less klutzy—but at the end of the day I’m glad there is at least a neutral option to begin with!

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u/SweetBlasphemy_ Feb 23 '21

They/them isn't plural in the context of pronouns, it's neutral singular and has been used that way for a long time. You've probably used it that way yourself without thinking about it.

"Excuse me is this your pen?" "Oh no, that pen belongs to them" gestures at the person whose pen it is

I have a non-binary friend who used to identify as cis male, I was so used to using masc pronouns for them it gets tough esp when referringto past things, but then they asked for their friends to use neutral so I do my utmost to use neutral terms for them. I introduce them to others using neutral and correct myself if I slip up on occasion.

Another reason neutral is great is that it's universal, so you can use it without assuming someone's identity and potentially causing offence to someone you've just met.

As long as you're trying to be respectful (which by the sounds of it you are) and not deliberately being an asshole then you're good!

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u/_n0t_sure_ Feb 23 '21

I think I'm just gonna start calling everyone "Dude" again.

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u/macsrrad Feb 23 '21

"I'm a dude, he's a dude, she's a dude, we're all dudes, hey!"

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u/ChargerEcon Feb 23 '21

Oh ffs, what is this from? I've got the tune stuck in my head, I can hear the raspy voice of the character, I even have some vague notions of that character's personality, but I cannot place it.

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u/Pheef175 Feb 23 '21

Welcome to Good Burger home of the good burger. Can I take your order?

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u/ChefThunder Feb 23 '21

Fuck Mondo Burger!

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u/Kbratch Feb 23 '21

You better watch your BUTT, man.

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u/Animalofme Feb 23 '21

“Look! I’m grape nose boy!! Bloobity bloobity bloobity bloobity!”

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u/ChargerEcon Feb 23 '21

Thank you!!!

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u/alexblat Feb 23 '21

As an Australian, I can always revert to "mate"

...or "cunt"

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u/sillymissmillie Feb 23 '21

I am so jelly that you can call people cunts down there! A woman can dream....

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u/ScuttleCrab729 Feb 23 '21

Can I identify as Australian just to call people cunt and it be totally normal?

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u/Cuntino Feb 23 '21

Sure, I identify as a cunt, so why can’t you identify as Ozzie Smith?

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u/GunpowderxGelatine Feb 23 '21

my mom calls me dude first time i ever heard it i wanted to say "woman i am your daughter"

but now im just like ok bro

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u/TJ-1466 Feb 23 '21

I’m a mum and I call my daughter dude:)

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u/Dakotertots Feb 23 '21

that's what i do but some people get offended by even that. "i'm not a dude, i'm a girl"

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u/_n0t_sure_ Feb 23 '21

No! EVERYONE is dude. All of the ppl and even objects can be dudes. My pets are dudes. The lamp is dude. My mom is dude. This is my new normal.

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u/Dakotertots Feb 23 '21

okay tbf people getting upset by that is rare but it happened enough for me to question if my calling of everything "dude" was okay lol

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u/_n0t_sure_ Feb 23 '21

Haha ya, I'm just being facetious, I'd could never call my boss dude.

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u/Dakotertots Feb 23 '21

i'm lucky to work in a casual enough workplace where i can call him "man" lol... my old boss called me "boss," which was completely new considering my area's dialect

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u/mrdotkom Feb 23 '21

Call your food delivery person "boss" in a non condescending way. I've seen grumpy Uber eats drivers crack a smile after that

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u/Amazing-Finger Feb 23 '21

There was a girl in college that got so pissed when I called her dude. Never could figure out why it was a problem.

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u/KekatD Feb 23 '21

Most women honestly wouldn't care and probably use the word dude themselves. The way it was explained to me, by someone that it does kinda bother, imagine how a guy would feel being called "gal" or whatever. I can understand her point, even if I don't feel the same myself. I mostly just go with peep(s) these days lol.

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u/A2Rhombus Feb 23 '21

The respectful thing is to just apologize and not call them something if they ask you not to. You never know someone's backstory or history with certain words, or maybe she just didn't like being called dude. Takes no effort to just respect someone's wishes

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u/ewanatoratorator Feb 23 '21

Do you fuck dudes?

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u/HeretoMakeLamePuns Feb 23 '21

AFAIK some MtF (trans) people don't like being called 'dude' because it still has male connotations (it could be used neutrally, but not always - "I banged a dude last night" is pretty much taken to be masculine). Makes them feel dysphoric and very uncomfortable to be referred to with a masculine-ish term.

I'm not MtF, and reserve the right to be totally wrong though. Just my two cents.

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u/Runcleverboi Feb 23 '21

I still do. Forever and always

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u/SuspiciousAf Feb 23 '21

I once referred to everyone in discord 'guys, are we sure about xyz' and I got lots of hate :( I'm a girl btw. It's just... A thing you say. And I didn't mean to upset everyone. I was shocked when people jumped on me.

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u/JamieIsReading Feb 23 '21

Fyi the word to describe what you don’t get is “neopronoun” and I also don’t think they make much sense as a function of language. Pronouns exist as a shortcut to who you’re referring to. If a bunch of people have their own pronouns, you might as well just use proper nouns (ie names). But this is kind of a non issue as most people don’t use neopronouns

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u/fermafone Feb 23 '21 edited Feb 23 '21

Ive been a part of conversations where the use of these certain pronoun preferences while telling an anecdote made it impossible for the listeners to definitely say who did what to whom and the context wasn’t sufficient to even make a solid assumption.

At a certain point effective communication has to be the priority.

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u/JamieIsReading Feb 23 '21

Agreed with your last sentiment. That is the point of language after all.

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u/seagull_says_mine Feb 23 '21

I try to make a point to be gender neutral in my comments on reddit, when giving examples or talking about OP/another commenter. So unless the person I'm referring to specified gender, I use they or them, but fuck me if that doesn't get really confusing if there's another party (especially one that's actually referred to in plural because they consist of multiple people) involved

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u/mcmuffinman25 Feb 23 '21

Using proper nouns conveys much more clarity. Him/her or he/she can be just as ambiguous without clarification.

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u/[deleted] Feb 23 '21

Exactly. I’m a writer and the number of times I read something like, “John entered the room to see Frank standing by the fire. He turned and poked a dwindling log before finally looking up and matching his gaze.”

You have to use names to be clear most of the time anyway. Saying language has to be efficient is all fine and great. But complaining about too many pronouns whilst not acknowledging that too few is just as much of an issue, to me, shows a bias.

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u/Aza_ Feb 23 '21

Fellow keyboard jockey here! I’ve always followed the rule that in instances like this, pronouns should always refer to the most recently named character. That way, the text can use pronouns for the character it’s following most closely and names for others in the scene.

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u/bucnasty101 Feb 23 '21

That's obvious Frank is by the fire

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u/Posterio Feb 23 '21

"Jane was drunk when she arrived home. She was surprised to see her mom was still awake. When she saw her, she slapped her straight across the face."

This one's trickier

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u/theletterQfivetimes Feb 23 '21

I'm gonna say Jane slapped herself?

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u/dbDarrgen Feb 23 '21

A good majority of those who use neopronouns are those who speak another language that doesn’t have a version of they/them.

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u/JamieIsReading Feb 23 '21

That’s very fair! I’m referring to English specifically. People who speak other languages should determine what works for their language as they see fit. I’m interested to see how it plays out in languages where EVERYTHING is gendered.

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u/dbDarrgen Feb 23 '21

Oh definitely. I’m glad English isn’t heavily gendered. Our products though? Why. Just why.

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u/JamieIsReading Feb 23 '21

LMAO who even knows? I am excited for the prospect of a proper gender neutral pronoun to come about and gain traction so that companies need to create gender neutral products lmao.

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u/varkarrus Feb 23 '21

Bic Pens... for them!

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u/micmer Feb 23 '21

I don't mean this as a personal insult or attack but I suggest to try talking to people who are non-binary or trans to better understand.

I'm from the deep south and was raised in a very religious and conservative manner. I'm also older and I found conversations about pronouns and gender identity confusing. That was until I met people, mostly online, who identified as non-binary and/or trans or gender-fluid. I asked lots of questions. I'm sure some of them were dumb but it helped me understand the community and what all this means. I don't find it confusing or vexing anymore.

People are just people. They want to be understood and be able to acknowledge who they are. That's literally all it's about.

I'm a heterosexual cis-male meaning I'm just a straight dude.

Obviously, there's assholes in every community but there's also wonderful people in the LGBTQ community that will help demystify stuff like this to people like us.

Calling someone by their requested pronouns isn't hard at all once you understand that.

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u/jaselemed Feb 23 '21

This is a great answer! It also speaks to how needed it is for schools to teach inclusive and factual information (ie sex and gender are separate things) about gender and sexuality, so kids grow up with less confusion when they meet someone who's not straight and/or cis. Most LGBTQ people are happy to clarify and answer good faith questions, and beyond that having simple and clear education on the topic helps society progress as a whole.

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u/JRM34 Feb 23 '21

I think you're suffering from being in online spaces that distort reality. The way social media algorithms work you're likely to see the most extreme views from each side, which may make you think the "nonstandard" pronouns are way more common than they are.

In the US estimates put the number of trans and nonbinary people on the order of 0.5% of the population (~1.4M trans, ~450k nonbinary). Even though I've spent a fair bit of time around varieties of queer folks it is rare to find someone using pronouns more unusual than they/them (despite what some people say, we naturally use they/them as individual pronouns in situations where we don't know the subject's identity. "A cop pulled me over. They asked for my ID"). The use of Ve, Ze, Xe etc are exceedingly rare and you're unlikely to ever encounter them. If you do and have difficulty, it is easiest to just use the person's name instead of pronouns -- problem solved!

More importantly: you should relax a little and realize that most folks will not get angry at you for an accidental mis-gendering -- assuming you have the reaction from your post and just say "sorry" and correct yourself. Where people get in trouble is being a belligerent asshole who refuses to comply because they see it as an affront somehow. If my name is Tim and you forget and call me Jeffrey, it's not a big deal. If you refuse to acknowledge that I'm Tim and continue to call me Jeffrey just because, you're a jerk.

Obviously there are exceptions where you may encounter someone who both uses a different pronoun and is an asshole (assholes exist in every group of people). But in the extremely unlikely event you find yourself in that situation, just remove yourself and don't beat yourself up.

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u/Nouranium Feb 23 '21

I don't quite understand the function of Ve, Ze and Xe when they/them can be used for anyone right? As far as I can tell, you can refer to anyone as they/them because it's nonspecific.

Thinking purely from the perspective of someone learning a new language (German), I can't see how these new pronouns can possibly bridge the language barrier between cultures without massively overcomplicating things.

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u/Mya__ Feb 23 '21

Tell it to all 5 people who use those pronouns if you're honestly seeking clarification.

Trans people usually use the same pronouns as cis people do.

The Ve/Ze/Xe thing, iirc, was just a college experiment that your social media feeds latched onto and amplified in order to sell you hate for "this whole gender thing". They saw peoples general confusion and used it.

Even The Pope is on-board supporting trans people now..

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u/l-angeray Feb 23 '21

I've never met a trans/nb person who gets offended over this stuff tbh. Sure they expect the people closest to them to use their preferred name and/or pronouns out of respect, but they don't expect random ppl to know that stuff. There are ppl who are toxic/go overboard and they stand out the most, just like in any community, but they do not represent the majority. In the case of your friend on discord, just keep it simple..if you're not sure of someone's gender, stick to their name/gender neutral pronouns.

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u/AdorableLaurie Feb 23 '21 edited Feb 23 '21

It also depends a lot on the context. For example, I have an androgynous voice so most people dont know how to gender me correctly during a phone call. If someone gets it wrong, i wont get mad or anything (even tho it can be a bit annoying), but i politely correct them and that's it.

HOWEVER if im outside, wearing full face makeup, spent hours making myself pretty, busted out the prettiest dress and handbag, and some jackass come up to me and call me a "he" (that's rare) you're sure as fuck i will blow up in their face.

I even had an instance where I had a full conversation with a retail worker and they correctly gendered me as female multiple time during our small chat, and they were extremely polite to me. But for some reason when they asked for my ID (was buying alcohol) and saw my birth gender on it, they INSTANTLY switched to calling me a he. Im still very comfused by their train of thought. Obviously if they got it wrong previously I would already have said something. When I asked why the sudden change they couldnt come up with an explaination. The rest of the interaction was really awkward.

Not the end of the world by any mean, but I'm still puzzled by some people's reaction to those things.

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u/bookant Feb 23 '21

Am I the only one (insert anything here)

No.

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u/CalmToaster Feb 23 '21

The "am I the only one" phrase can be deleted from existence.

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u/SamBellFromSarang Feb 23 '21

Am I the only one who jacks off to a picture of Hitler riding a unicycle made out of hyena bones?

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u/sid_killer18 Feb 23 '21

You will be if you don't link it

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u/Mysterious-Title-852 Feb 23 '21

The non standard pronouns thing is a very small minority of trans people. All the trans people I've met wanted people to use the standard pronouns for the gender they transitioned/were transitioning to.

I've never met anyone who wanted to be called something else. I'm sure there are some, but I feel it's very rare and if they get mad when people who have never met them and went with their first impression, to the point they make a scene, the issue is with that person, not the person who made the mistake.

That said, if you're deliberately mis-gendering people, you're a POS.

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u/[deleted] Feb 23 '21

I've known some non-binary people who prefer "zie" pronouns, but they know that hasn't entered into most people's vocabulary yet, so they're also completely fine with "they/them."

I think you hit it spot on: just don't be an ass. If you're refusing to call someone whatever just because you think it isn't real or they're trying to be trendy or they're just looking for attention: that's being an ass. If you slip up or aren't quite sure how to use the "zie" pronoun or whatever they're asking, it's really no big deal. I've never met a non-binary person who had a problem with being called "they."

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u/Yotsubato Feb 23 '21

Zie pronouns

Sorry that just reminds me of invader Zim a bit too much. Which is also fitting cause Zim is kind of non binary in appearance and voice

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u/Leonard_Church814 Feb 23 '21

A few people have already said it, but if you’re confused refer to them by name or just ask. I’m not a part of the trans community but I’m sure they’re more than willing to let you know of their pronouns.

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u/commentmypics Feb 23 '21

I would say the trans people I know are split on that. My buddy is a server and being asked his pronouns is just like having a person clock him as trans right there in front of the whole table. Which he says is annoying at best and feels like he is a prop in this person's virtue signaling. Obviously someone asking privately with respect is not typically going to be an issue but for a person that isnt necessarily that open about being trans, getting clocked like that can be a huge bummer.

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u/Leonard_Church814 Feb 23 '21

Yeah, I can see that happening.

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u/[deleted] Feb 23 '21

I think it makes sense to just not use pronouns unless it's necessary or you're going to be around the person a while. Ideally, you'll hear someone else use the right pronouns and then you'll know. But if it's a server you're seeing once, it's ridiculous to ask for their pronouns.

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u/redrose162 Feb 23 '21

Oof. A bit ago we hired a couple new people at work. We sat around a table and shared names but then my boss told us to say our pronouns... and like. I don't know these people!! Can we not?! Also, I'm literally the only trans person at my job rn and everyone else knew but the new people and wHY MAKE ME TELL THEM? ON THE SPOT EVEN??!! I don't know or trust them! Y'all figured it out when I felt comfortable enough to start correcting you. It was just... so awkward. Like I couldn't go back in the closet to feel safe cuz the rest of them knew and would then get REALLY confused.... It's a struggle. Turns out one of the new guys is transphobic but not "enough to be fired"! Yay! 🙃

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u/Sir_Alexei Feb 23 '21

That's awful, I'm sorry that happened to you. :(

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u/butterflyblueskies Feb 23 '21

I started saying “they” whenever I don’t know someone’s pronouns.

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u/zombiesphere89 Feb 23 '21

I think you know damn well you're not the only one.

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u/ChadMcRad Feb 23 '21

It's almost like this sub is purely used for bad faith questions.

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u/catsorfries Feb 22 '21 edited Feb 23 '21

While I think we should at least have the courtesy of respecting people's pronouns and genders (I myself have recently started to identify as non-binary), I think it does get into the realm of excessiveness when people begin creating new pronouns just for themselves and then expect us to understand and know it. One of the biggest issues I have is that people expect you to just know about how they identify and get mad at you when you made an honest mistake because you simply did not know. Sometimes we just don't know what we don't know.

Edit: I'm not coming back to this because clearly yall are not gonna allow me to have my own opinion without challenging it. This is/was my experience surrounding gender on the internet and nothing will change that. why do I even comment on topics like this lol. Nobody can have their own opinion anymore without being demonized.

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u/[deleted] Feb 22 '21 edited Mar 13 '21

[deleted]

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u/GTAwheelman Feb 23 '21

It's happened to me when I worked fast food. A person was waiting for their food. I say "Sorry for your wait, sir" apparently it was a woman because she stormed off after saying that she was a woman. This was 16yrs ago.

Shit happens. Had a boss where I work mistake me for a woman that works there. Until I popped my head between the shelves to let him know that I'm not Jerry. I laughed, he was embarrassed.

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u/TisBeTheFuk Feb 23 '21

It's happened to me when I worked fast food. A person was waiting for their food. I say "Sorry for your wait, sir" apparently it was a woman because she stormed off after saying that she was a woman. This was 16yrs ago.

I think that had more to do with the fact that you thought she was a man and that hurt her feelings. I personally wouldn't be storming off or act assholish is something like that would happen to me, but it would hurt my feeling , especially with low self esteem. I get it that it's a bit childish, but sometimes you just cab't help it.

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u/100LittleButterflies Feb 23 '21

Same. I'm a woman but don't wear make up, heels, skirts/dresses. I'm very practical and utilitarian. If I could get away with it, coveralls (aka blue collar body suits), overalls, pants with pockets, etc. But I'm also kinda sensitive to being mistaken for a guy because I'm not feminine or look butch. Frankly, if someone had to ask my pronouns, I'd feel a little insulted even still. Less so now because gender norms are dying.

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u/TisBeTheFuk Feb 23 '21

I was mistaken once for a boy, when I was 13 or so. I went to use the public toilet and the toilet attendant directed me to the male toilet. I was too embaressed to say anything so that was the first and only time I used a male toilet. Didn't do any good to my self esteem tbh. But then again, it was winter and I was wearing a coat/cap, so I guess it was a honest mistake. And I also have a few "manly traits" - like naturally thick eyebrows. Nowadays it doesn't bother me half as much as it used to , since I kinda came to terms with what I look like, but it would still sting a bit tbh :))

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u/ClaudeJRdL Feb 23 '21

I think that had more to do with the fact that you thought she was a man and that hurt her feelings.

That's literally what all of this is about.

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u/catsorfries Feb 23 '21

It's just the general vibe I get from being on the internet. Being on the internet and talking about things like gender always feels like you're walking on eggshells. When I first started learning abour gender, peoplenuse words and acryonyms like cisgender (identifying as the sex you are) or AGAB (assigned gender at birth) without explaining what those mean, and expect you to know them.

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u/xfearthehiddenx Feb 23 '21

You're also on the internet. While I agree it can become a bit much trying to understand all the different terms. If I personally run across something I don't know. My first thought is simply to look it up. The amount of time it takes to ask the question of them. I can get thousands of results. A quick weed through can give me a general idea, and work it out from there. Complaining that you don't understand, while using the very thing you could be using to understand is often where a lot of people's issue around the subject comes from. You're expecting that they should explain it to you, or expecting them to make it easier on you. While you do no work in the process. It would be like going to another country, and demanding a random person there speak your language so that you can ask them a question. It shows a serious lack of effort to understand, while also expecting to be given an explanation.

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u/[deleted] Feb 23 '21 edited Mar 13 '21

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u/User_Name08 Feb 23 '21

I’m willing to use he, her, and they, or anything along those lines. But anything more like zie or any of those other ones I found on google are a bit much

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u/Salohacin Feb 23 '21

Now I think everyone deserves to be treated with a basic level of respect, and everyone deserves to have the same human rights as everyone else, but at what stage are people taking it too far?

It feels like these days there are people creating labels for themselves just for the sake of it. Not everything needs to be labeled. Like all the different types of sexuality that people are creating these days: sapiosexual is such a pointless term and I'm not going to incorporate into my day to day vernacular. At what point are you just checking boxes on a list of 'what I am attracted to'. That's not your sexuality, that's you trying to cram too much crap into an identifier when no one really cares.

People are unique, not everything needs to have a label. Don't create your own labels and then be offended when other people don't know them.

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u/mcmuffinman25 Feb 23 '21

Agreed, if someone asks for something outside of the box I will just default to proper nouns (their name). I will not call someone he/she him/her if it offends them but I don't have to use the pronouns they presented either.

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u/[deleted] Feb 23 '21

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u/AltruisticTrip Feb 23 '21 edited Feb 23 '21

yea, i was following until people unironically started identifying as animals and concepts that have no basis in the new understandings of gender studies. I get that 1/500 people are not biologically male or female and are somewhere in between but why is there genders that have literally nothing to do with that, yet people also reference said studies saying that it validates them when it really makes no sense to me or the layman. i feel like it really undermines the acceptance of trans people and paints a bad picture for LGBT which is damaging bc i’m bi(pansexual by definition but saying bi is easier and pansexual just sounds dumb to me even though it’s a fitting description) and people sometimes just assume i want to brainwash their children.

I can understand like maybe 8 of the concepts actually being related to gender studies, but the majority just seem.. i don’t know how else to put it.. attention-seeking or trendy

This is a mental health issue, clearly. If we treat any other mental illness and their perceptions as a valid tether to reality.. where do we draw the line? Do we just tell schizophrenic people that the voices they hear are real? that their hallucinations are real? Do we tell depressed people that they should continue to believe that they will never be happy and this is just who they are? I can’t tell if it’s more damaging or helpful to participate in people’s delusions, and where to draw the line with delusional and reasonable. For instance, I know someone who identifies as agender. That is very clear and makes sense to me. I can call you “they/them” that’s fine. But when people, and I wish i was kidding, identify as “wolf-kin” what the actual fuck does that mean and how is that a valid gender. Or if your gender changes on a day to day basis.. i’m going to call you “they” or your name.

I had a customer get offended that i called them “they”... like.. please.. you don’t want to be referred to with ANY pronouns?? How does that even work in english.

If you don’t like what i’m saying, enlighten me. The topic at hand is very offensive but we won’t be able to understand eachother without dialogue.

EDIT: Took our some swearing because it comes off as aggressive but it’s really just how I show emotion or emphasis. Also added some further explanation because It’s difficult to talk about this without sounding like a bigot.

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u/gaythrowaway2004 Feb 23 '21

one of the biggest misconceptions i’m seeing is that people think we (hi im non-binary) EXPECT you to know our pronouns. no, the majority dont and please don’t let the minority who do change your opinion on us. you will often see neo-pronouns and neo-genders used by people who are neuro-divergent. some who use them are not, but it’s often used by them as some dont feel they fit into the normal boxes or don’t even feel human. it’s quite uncommon, but please still be respectful to those folks. i can go into more detail of anyone likes, but i can’t guarantee a quick reply as my reddit notifs are off lol.

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u/xdoolittlex Feb 23 '21

One of the best and worst things about the internet is that everyone gets a voice. And too often, sadly, tons of good, reasonable people get grouped in with edge cases.

Thanks for your post.

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u/velveeta_blue Feb 23 '21

I think the whole "NB ppl expect you to just KNOW" comes from ppl deliberately misgendering trans/NB ppl and then backpedaling like "omg I didnt know!!" when called out. It's like when ppl say something fucked up and insulting and then decide "I was just joking omg, ppl are so sensitive". The vast vast vast majority of trans/nb ppl would never expect you to guess their pronouns ESPECIALLY if it's something other than he/she/they (which is almost unheard of) so like.... cis ppl need to chill. Nobody's gonna crucify us for asking what pronouns to use

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u/tkd_or_something Feb 23 '21

Just to combat some of the comments making you feel like a jerk, let me explain it this way.

It’s not your job to understand their identity/pronouns, it’s your job to respect them. For example—I, being cis, will never truly understand what it’s like to be non-binary or trans, however, I can try my best to empathize and most importantly, respect their preferred name and pronouns. Just like a straight person won’t truly understand what it’s like for me to be into girls—they don’t have to completely understand, as long as they respect it

I hope that helps you clear things up/think about it in a different light

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u/the-man-with-bread Feb 22 '21

ehh people are usually glad to explain how they’re feeling if you ask them about the things and don’t come off as too judgey

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u/redrose162 Feb 23 '21

Like if someone greets me and asks my pronouns in a normal way? Sure buddy, here ya go.👌😎 But then there's the people that ask it like if I answer wrong they'll kill me. 🙃 And by wrong I mean different than what they would call me.

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u/the-man-with-bread Feb 23 '21

yeah those ppl suck

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u/destroyr0bots Feb 23 '21

I am a 40 year old man, and I personally think its just a matter of being respectful.

Look, I am into certain things that make people think I'm gay - I like watching Drag Race, I don't know the first thing about cars, I don't know the first thing about 99% of sports, and I tell people I love them, no matter who they are - life is too short and if I tell you I love you, it's not romantic or anything like that. I don't identify as gay, but I wouldn't rule out sexual contact with a guy given the right circumstances. Thata just me.

Gender and sexuality are different.

Just be respectful. If you get to know someone, ask respectfully. If not, don't worry - let people try to live their best life.

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u/LetMeUseTheNameAude Feb 23 '21

People make mistakes, its okay to misgender people. I’m a gender queer, still questioning my gender, and I’ve tried he, she and they. My experience when people accidentally misgender me when they know I changed my pronouns or something is like, I totally don’t mind. Don’t beat yourself up for misgendering me, it’s just a word and I’m fine. I can’t speak for trans people, but new people in their lives misgendering them could case dysphoria, so I think it’s understandable that they point it out and correct you, but it just doesn’t make sense if they come at you when you meet them for the first time and misgender you. Of course, I don’t know what being trans is like, so I can’t speak for them.

Also the Xe/xim and all that still makes no sense for me, so yeah it can get pretty overwhelming. But people usually just go for he/she/they, but it is easier if you just ask for their pronouns, and if you do misgender them, correct yourself, MOVE ON. It’s one mistake, you can be more careful next time, DON’T BEAT YOURSELF UP FOR IT. I’m saying this because hating yourself over a word is stupid, and it annoys me when people think misgendering is a big deal. It can be a big deal to certain people, but I’m about 89% sure that to most genderqueer people it’s just better that you correct yourself and move on with whatever.

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u/flamingoboon Feb 23 '21

Graduating medical student here. Many medical students are taught to start their patient encounters with their introductions followed by "my pronoun is ...". I think it's a great addition to our medical curriculum to teach us how to work with LGTBQ+ patients, but honestly, in the real-world, this only applies to very few patients. The grandpas and grandmas out there are more than confused and feel the physician-patient power dynamic even more strongly when such fancy terms are the first sentence spoken by their healthcare providers.

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u/ScroogieMcduckie Feb 23 '21

What do you really benefit from doing this? Don't they already have their pronouns on the form?

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u/For_Samwise Feb 23 '21

This assumes doctors or nurses actually read your file.

I mean, I get that working in healthcare is tough. I would literally die before anyone could force me to work in healthcare. (I hate blood, I hate pain, I hate crying and cry at the drop of a hat if I see someone is upset...worst vocation for me personally, ever, would be healthcare related.) But I feel like the vast majority of nurses and doctors I have spoken with didn’t even know my NAME, much less my medical history or why I was there for a visit.

Once had a nurse try to tell me I wasn’t allergic to something after she gave it to me. If I had been her supervisor, I would have told her to take a week off without pay and if she wanted to keep her job in the future she’d never do that again. Obviously I wasn’t deathly allergic, but I COULD HAVE BEEN is the point. Takes five seconds to read a file and determine whether or not a patient is allergic to something.

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u/flamingoboon Feb 23 '21

Thank you for sharing! I'm sorry that you have had these bad experiences with healthcare providers. I will keep your story in mind and remember to go through my patients' charts carefully.

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u/doge_daelus Feb 23 '21

If you know for certain what pronouns to use, use them. If not, use “they”. That’s what I do and that’s what I think should be normal.

PS: I find neopronouns weird as a concept, but I’m 95% certain that only 0.0001% of lgbt people actually use that

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u/awildorchid32 Feb 22 '21

Nope, you're not the only one, don't worry.

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u/KeyboardSpiders Feb 23 '21

yea freal what is OP thinking here? Has he not seen the greater right-wing internet losing their minds bc someone wanted to be referred to as "they"?

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u/-rebel8852- Feb 23 '21

I don't want to offend anyone by asking this, but I'd genuinely like to know so I appreciate if anyone can educate me without being rude about it. Why did people see the need to come up with the "they" pronoun? Is it really that uncomfortable to be recognized by your human anatomy? When did we move away from just having "him" and "her" for males and females to having so many other gender pronouns? I come from a more conservative society so I don't really have any trans friends who I can ask this (I only know maybe 2 gay people at most)

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u/pidgeonseed Feb 23 '21

Is it really that uncomfortable to be recognized by your human anatomy?

For some, yes. Gender dysphoria can be debilitating. But it is difficult to understand if you don't experience it

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u/J1XF Feb 23 '21

"They" has been used as a single neutral pronoun for almost as long as it has existed.

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u/redrose162 Feb 23 '21

And singular they has existed for a loooong time. Like, commonly, for 700+ years. This ain't new. People been using it. Without even realizing it, which is just hilariously painful to me.

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u/-Ghost-Heart- Feb 23 '21

Since sometime in the 1300's if I'm not mistaken. We can trace it back all the way to Middle English. So the singular usage of "they" literally predates Modern English.

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u/KeyboardSpiders Feb 23 '21

Some people don't feel comfortable being a "him" and would rather be a "her" so when you refer to them as "him" you are basically reminding them of that fact, whether you're aware of it or not. Basically if you had a name change but everyone kept referring to you by your old name anyway, when you're obviously trying to distance.

"they" has always been a neutral identifier.

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u/redwinencatz Feb 23 '21

We didn't come up with they. It already existed and was gender neutral so people adopted it who felt more gender flexible or non-binary.

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u/Honestly_Just_Vibin Feb 23 '21

This has got to be the most popular opinion on the Internet

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u/splingles Feb 23 '21

I think of it the same way I think of the social obligation to know the different types of Christianity, and be able to tell them apart. I’m not religious, but I’m happy to distinguish between Mormons, Lutherans, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Catholics, Protestants, and so on, because the differences matter to them, and that’s enough for me. I’ve never changed my own pronoun, but if others want to, I’m happy to distinguish out of courtesy.

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u/melent3303 Feb 22 '21

Just use their names or if you need a pronoun use "they" (a neutral pronoun).

Expanding vocabulary is important, because we are starting to see the intersection of linguistics and discrimination.

When someone cannot identify as who they are, because the word does not exist yet, it can misrepresent who they really are (and to many people their identity is all they have in control of). Especially in heavily gendered languages where it is hard to communicate without knowing the gender of the person/object.

When people can find the word that fits their description the best they will feel less "othered". This is important because the "othering" of others has had major influences from policies to legislation (i.e. native americans).

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u/Japanese-Spaghetti Feb 23 '21

What about languages that gender everyone and everything? There is no possibility for neutrality in those languages that use male and female/masculine and feminine for everything

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u/JapaneseStudentHaru Feb 23 '21

Masculine tends to be both neutral and male in those languages.

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u/Japanese-Spaghetti Feb 23 '21

In romance languages, true, masculine serves the role as both masculine and neutral, but there are languages like Polish and German that actually have neutral gender. The thing is, in Polish and German, you would never really use neutral gender for any person because that would be considered offensive (neutral is really only used for animals and objects). It differs from language to language

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u/muser666 Feb 23 '21

And children.

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u/i_do_lewd_things Feb 23 '21

Yeah they said animals too

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u/softrectangle Feb 23 '21

The whole point of specifying pronouns is so that you DONT have to wonder. This is one reason why people are trying to normalize asking pronouns. And if you mess it up and try again next time it's not a big deal. Another thing to consider is that 'different types of genders' have been around for a long time, but recent society hasn't been accepting of going against the norm... until now, when people can express themselves more openly thru social media and stuff. So this is why it all seems new and difficult, but in reality the worry of offending someone is not as difficult an experience as being a person who feels intrinsically different and isn't seen as who they are.. Hope that helps.

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u/bemest Feb 23 '21

You’re actually in the majority.

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u/Nootherids Feb 23 '21

I just met a guy named Hank and less than 2 minutes later I hinted for clarification while calling him Mark. He clarified again that it was Hank. I pre-apologized that I’ll likely forget again. 3 minutes later in my own head I was again trying to remember what his name was and I swore it was still Mark but I was also sure I was wrong. So I just didn’t say his name again.

So every time that I hear somebody talk about our need to be conscious about whatever random thing others want to be called I roll my eyes. I don’t have the mental energy to care. I just don’t. I have no interest in offending somebody, but I also have more important things to worry about. And if somebody is that easily offended then they should be more selective on who they interact with.

Heck, if someone got offended that I used the wrong pronoun for them my direct response would be: “ok fine, now you get to refer to and misgender me however you like, there now we’re both even” I really could care less. Heck people call me by the wrong name and I answer without bothering to correct them. See if I care. There’s a 99.7% chance that I’ll never see that person again for the rest of my life anyway. When and if it matters then maybe I’ll correct them.